Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Have a 10 year old Ariens 824, model 924082. During Sunday’s snowstorm halfway through cleanup the auger stopped turning. I did not hit anything or was there a jam. The impeller works fine and the shear bolts are good. The augers turns turn freely, both locked on the shaft. If you turn the impeller the shaft turns going inside the gear case but the augers don’t turn.  I know the augers should not turn by trying to spin them, only way to move them is to turn impeller, but mine spin freely indicating a problem within the gear case. I am hoping it’s only the pin that holds the gear onto the shaft.

Now my dilemma, I cannot pull the gears case assembly out because the collar( hub) that the auger pulley is bolted to is frozen solid. It must be removed to enable the whole gearcase assembly to be pulled out from the front of the bucket. I did remove the pulley from the hub to have more room to work.

I have spent 8 ½ hours today trying to get the hub off the keyed shaft. I soaked for hours with penetrating oil, used a torch with Mapp gas and still won’t budge a fraction. Our good friend Majorxlr8n (Marty) emailed and told me to do the following:

“If the auger shaft bearings are on the OUTSIDE of the auger casing, then all you

have to do is remove them from both sides. The next step is so simple - to pull

the augers & gearcase out, spin the impeller shaft either clockwise or

counterclockwise. The whole auger assembly will “walk” off the impeller shaft,

and VOILA - its all out!”

I will attempt this method on Thursday. I still would like to get the hub off just in case I will need to replace 
the shaft with worm gear and the main gear that meshes with it. Sadly enough my Ariens parts manual shows
the shaft and gear must be bought as an assembly (73.00), even though I may only need the gear. 
If the shaft must be replaced and I can’t get the hub off my last resort will be to use a sawzall and cut the shaft 
close to the hub, once I get the hub off, I may be able to pound the cut shaft off the hub using a vise. 

Does anybody have a suggestion of what else I can try to remove the frozen hub, perhaps there is a special tool that can get it off.

I don't know how your words became so small in your post but,
if you contact your airens manufacture and ask for a service manual, that will have all the info you would need.

well it aint so bad ...trust me.

there is a special tool ,available at your local auto repair parts place.

we call it a pickle fork.its commonly used for removing tierod ends from autos steering.

it works exceptionaly well in impeller shaft pulleys and bearings.

should be real cheep,you dont need a top line unit just a 10 dollar tool.its basically a steel bar about 3/4 inch diameter,

foot long with a fork at one end thats wedge shaped.

you just place it between parts to be removed and hit it with hammer.

in extreme cases you may need 2 of them.

i use them just about everyday in snowblower season.

now for the good part.

i doubt you hurt a gear,usually all that happens with your model is a busted key in the auger shaft.

spins right around just like you described .

let us know how you make out.

later chris

Does anyone else show two of Itsbinnice's sentences going a mile across the screen?

Never mind, I edited it to fix it.  I Don't know what happened, must be a software thing?

This can happen if you type a note on a Microsoft Word document program and then post it here....I have had this happen myself and then edited my own post quickly when I saw it.  I would consider it a software glitch do to all of the differrent OS interfaces going on.....

This is just my total ignorant opionion of course lol.....

C

I bet you're right Christopher, kuddos! 

Word can do some funky stuff when pasting into these forums sometimes. I didn't even think of that. 

Sorry fellas about the crappy text in my post, yes it was done in MS Word and pasted, won't do that again.

Snowshoveler - In my email to Marty I was thinking of the pickle fork tool you mentioned, I'm a little concerned though cause the metal housing the shaft goes through is not really that strong and I'm afraid it may bend. That puppy is really on tight. Do you suggest doing it from the top down or laying it on the bucket and doing it from underneath, both way are accesible.

You stated that you believe it's only the key on the auger shaft. I have the Ariens parts manual with schematic and it does not show a key or keyway in shaft. It looks to me that the auger gear is pinned to the shaft using those cheap hollow pins. I hope you're right cause that's quite a bit of torque being held by such a flimsy pin, a key makes more sense. I did notice some discrepencies in the parts schematic, such as they only show my hub having one set screw, whereas it has two. On Thursday I'll follow Marty's suggestion and try to walk the auger assembly out as per his instructions. If that doesn't work I'll go buy a pickle fork and attempt to remove the hub. I will let you know how it turns out. Are there any tricks in splitting the gearcase halves, I'll need to get some Ariens Gear Oil and the Locktite Gasket maker. Don't know why they just don't make gaskets for it, easier and lessy messy.

Itzbin,

I just emailed you an hour or so ago. I STAND CORRECTED - the shaft will NOT "walk out" as I mentioned. There are bushings that will prohibit it from coming out UNLESS you can split the auger gearcase halves. If the roll pin did fall out, I hope it didn't cause any damage to the worm gear or shaft. As for the hub removal, definitely try a tie rod fork. I have one that attaches to an air chisel - it will be summoned to get a auger pulley/hub off a stubborn Sears 2 stage that has been driving me nuts the past few days since obtaining it.

Marty

Marty,

Thanks for posting, may benefit others down the road. I read your email and will attempt  the pickle fork and heat tomorrow.

Snowshoveler, The problem in my case will not be a key, mine does not have one. I failed to mention that there are two gearcases available for certain models of the 1994 Ariens, a cast iron one for models 924084,85,86,87,91,92. As luck will have it, my model is the 924082, the only model with a split aluminum gearcase, the cast iron one is a solid unit and looks far better designed then the very simple aluminum casing. If you ask me this is piss poor design on any model They should have made it with split impeller shaft using a heavy duty coupling. It's easy for them to assemble when everything is new, but when rust sets in, as it will most certainly do regardless of how well maintained, disassemble will be a chore to say the least.

Not sure of your budget, but i had a 924 same vintage over the summer that had the aluminum gearbox cracked open. I purchased a complete unit with the auger shafts and all for aprox $200 and also replaced the auger bushings and main bearing at the same time. I was told after i had already iknstalled it that i could have put the cast unit in there but at that point it was too late. This might be an option for you. I also had to add the l2 gear luber because they sell you the unit dry. The complete job was only 45 min. just another option for you.

I saw a price of 233.00 for the whole assembly, not including the oil. I don't think it's worth it since I already have over 400.00 invested in it. At that point I thinks it's wisest to part the machine out and buy a new one for 1000.00. Your talking having at least 640.00 invested in a 10 year old machine, with a cheaper aluminum gearcase. Common sense tells me the new ones will also have aluminum and not cast iron, just don't make em like they used to. Once I get that stupid hub off I'll know better where I stand.

Replacing the  impeller shft and auger gear can be done for under 100.00, that's acceptable, but 240.00 or so is not. BTW the cast iron assembly that you didn't buy goes for 332.45 from RCPW.com, under part # 52403500.

The Ariens Professional models have cast iron gearboxes.  Check out the 926 DLE. 

I believe Ariens stopped putting gaskets around the gearcase because of leaks. 

got it apart yet or what...the suspense is killing me ,come on will ya.

seriously though there should be a key on the shaft in there somewhere.

later chris

Snowshoveler,

The gears with the keys are on the smaller units with 3/4" rake shafts. I believe the one itzbinnice is referring to (with a 1" rake shaft) has a similar gear with a "shoulder" and cross hole on the casting for a hardened groove pin (it's not a roll pin/spring pin).

PK

 

     

any chance that hardened grove pin snapped or sheered of in some way.

would be an eazy fix wouldnt it.

i have to get some of those service manuals for the new ariens product.

we sell some of it now and i would like to be well informed.paper always makes you look good

later chris 

Sorry for being late, busted my tail off today. I tip my hat to you guys that do this for a living, you damn sure earn your money. I got the hub off today using a pickle fork for ball joints (15/16) spread. The ones for the tie rods are too small (21/32) because the shaft is 3/4". Took a while but I didn't damage anything and the hub can be reused. I found the problem, the brass gear that is pinned to the 1" auger shaft was completely wiped out, didn't even look like a gear. Yes the pin that holds it is solid and strong, not the hollow type I thought it would have. The worm gear looks OK but I went this far so I think I'll replace the whole shaft, including the rear bearing that mounts on the rear housing. According to RCPW.com the brass gear can't be bought separately, only in tandem with the impeller shaft.

I'm going to the local Ariens dealer on Saturday and confirm that the gear can't be purchased alone. I'll bring the shaft with me and ask them if they suggest replacing if the gear can be bought separately. I still have one problem, I can't get the impeller of the shaft, I'll have to bring it somewhere and have it pressed off. The gear box had no oil in it, but plenty of brass shavings. I just bought this used recently off Ebay as a buy it now. When I picked it up I saw it had two nails substituing as shear pins, a flag right there but it was too late, already paid for.  The auger did turn though, I used it on a 4" snowfall. I summize the guy hit something or something got stuck and the nails didn't snap and chewed up most of the gear. Just enough meat to move the auger. When I did the EOD and met resistance, along with the sloppy rear bearing, it chewed off the fraction of the gear that was remaining. Lesson learned, shear pins are designed for a reason and alot cheaper than what I'm going through. I did scold the guy and told him you should be ashamed of yourself for doing that, the guy was carpenter/handyman and should have known better. First thing I did was put OEM shear pins in, but I did  not check the gearbox oil, as it turns out it had none, it did have some grease in ther but not much Speaking of that, looking at how it is engineered, it appears if it were filled with oil, it would leak out the shaft. Sorry for sounding stupid, it's because I am, but should that gearbox be filled with gear oil or some sort of grease? 

Glad you asked! Some trannys require oil, while other require greese. If yours had some greese in it, then that is what it requires. But you do not want to fill it up the whole way with greese, only half way. Lithum greese is what you want to put in there. I hope this helps you out...

Terminator20,

Thank you. I don't trust any maintennce this guy did, for all I know he could have put anything in there he had available. The parts manual calls foe a 16 oz bottle of Ariens L-2 lube, I only assumed it was liquid, looking at the illustration of the plastic round bottle, it appears it would be liquid and not grease. 

L2 lube is actually a Lithium #2 multi purpose grease if I am not mistaken.

Most OPE manufactures offer this, Simplicity offers it in a 8 oz. tube for example. You can buy a 16 oz. bottle of Ariens for 7 bucks on Alamia.  You can also pick it up at Wal Mart or any parts house.

If the Ariens is different, someone correct me.

Marshall,

Thanks, sounds right, the L standing for Lithium. I think it's Walmart for me for the grease. First I have to stop at the drug store and pick up some Vaseline before I go to the Ariens dealer. I'm gonna need it to ease the pain of the shafting I'm gonna get. Looking at some prices they want 4.04 for a crappy little seal, need two of those  for the Auger shaft, and another one for 3.28 for the rear impeller shaft. Then they want 10.95 for locktite gasket maker, I don't think so. Geez, Ariens parts are worse then car dealers parts pricing.

I once paied $10.00 dollars for a seal. Its crazy I know. What ever happened, to 25 cents for a seal and 50 cents for a needle valve?

L2 lube is a special 90W AGMA 5 gear oil, not grease. I would not assume just because there is grease in the gearcase that it should take grease. After all, there were nails for shear pins right? I believe there was a liquid #00 grease used at one time, as well as  lithium complex #2 EP-rated grease. For worm gearcases make sure you get an EP rated grease and not the standard stuff. I'll check your model for you tomorrow to see what lube it takes. A serial number would really help out for this. It should be six digits long right below the model #.

The parts manual probably calls out the shaft/gear combo. It's likely you can get the gear alone, but not recommended. If the current worm shaft were damaged you could ruin the replacement gear. If you re-use the shaft, be sure it is perfectly straight and make sure there's no damage to the worm profile (most times the damage, typical bent shafts, is not easy to see without V-blocks and a height gauge). The gears are made from manganese silicide bronze with a partical hardness of Rc70 (micro hardness, not macro). Pretty hard, but a damaged worm shaft can tear it up in no time.

PK

Well, from the horses mouth, I stand corrected. Thanks Paul.

Snowmann,

The model is 924082, SN is 023832.

If it is 90W gear oil and the parts manual shows it comes  in 16 oz bottle. How much oil should I put in there of the 16 oz, It looks to me that anything that would be above the bottom end of the shaft would leak out. Also if you turn the machine forward and let it lay on the bucket, I would think it would leak. We're talking about a moving shaft through brass bushings and some sort of seal on the end.

In my opinion, whenever you have moving parts there will be friction and wear, thus causing a leak. I just don't see how those seals would prevent liquid from leaking, especially the rear seal that is only a metal cap. Haven't given the two side case seals a thorough examination yet. I will replace the shaft assembly, I refuse to do this job again.

Itzbinnice,

Your unit requires 2.5 oz of Ariens L2 gear lube.

There were versions of this model immediately prior to yours that used 4 oz of Mobil Monolith AW00 grease, but your's does not. I would -not- advise using grease for your unit.

The oil seals will seal the gearcase properly unless your shafts are badly pitted. They do allow for shaft wear and are still able to seal. Also,  Ariens uses Loc-tite 518 Anaerobic sealant to seal the halves, but the gasket sealant the dealer recommended will likely be fine.

When you assemble the gearcase, it may be wise to put a very small bead of the rubber gasket sealant around the seal OD. Just a bit, though. You absolutely do not want this sealant to get into the seal lip or it will leak. This will help if there's any small misalignment gaps around the seal when the two halves are closed together. For the 2 (side) rake shaft seals, this will also help seal any scratches that might be in your seal bores from prior servicing. The seals that you require for the sides (05606100) do not have bore-tite/hypalon on the OD to fill these scratches (if there are any).

Paul Koltz

Paul,

Many thanks for the professional comprehensive instructions, I will follow to a T, don't want all my hard labor to go for nothing and do it over again. Do it right the first time and in the long run cheaper and faster.

Many thanks to all who have assisted me with this learning experience, it surely is appreciated. I love a challenge and not afraid to take anything apart, but I must say I don't ever want to do this again. The mechanical aspect is easy, separating those frozen parts is unpleasant to say the least. I hope this thread will be used by others down the road so they too can do their own repair and have a guide to do so. It may be a little while until I get it all together again, more than likely will take some time to get all the required parts. When complete I'll post what will be hopefully a happy ending.

Excellent help again Mr. Koltz... !

Thank you !


Dave...

Just thought I'd let you guys know that the job is complete and reassembled. Received the parts yesterday after waiting 1 week for the local Ariens dealer to receive the parts from Ariens. Total cost of the rebuild was about 160.00.

I went a bit overboard and painted the inside of the bucket with 2 coats of orange, then two coats of clearcoat. Did the same for the auger (black), also put in 4 brand new grease fittings on the auger. Assembling the gearcase was quite easy, I let the sealant dry for 24 hours before adding the grearcase oil. I tested this afternoon by rotating the gearcase 360 in all directions concentrating on all the seals. Happy to say not a drop of oil leaked. I added the 2 1/2 ounces as Paul instructed and was surprised so little went a long way, I guestimate the level  to be halfway up the bronze main auger gear. This serves as a windmill, picking up the oil in the teeth then distributing it to the worm gear, neither is fully submerged.

Ariens owners manual has a rather absurd way of checking oil level in the split aluminum casing. It states to make a mark 16 1/2 inches parallel to a level floor. Remove the oil filler plug and wipe it dry and replace finger tight.. Then slowly lift the handlebars up (with all the weight) until the mark is seen at the top of the auger/impeller housing. Count to 100 while holding that position to insure the lubricant has the time to seek a stable level. Return the snoblower to its level position and remove the plug to determine if the plug has been wetted by the lubricant.

Well they lost me when it said to lift and count to 100. At my age I'm lucky to lift a beer can and hold it steady, never mind a 230 pound snowblower. To avoid this unscientific way of checking the level, I drilled and tapped a 6/32 hole in a very specific location as not to interfere with the gear or shaft, I then made a dipstick out of 1/8 inch brass round rod and tapped it into a T handle with a collar on the rod to stop at a determined position. After assembling the unit and filling with the 2 1/2 oz of oil, I put the blower on a level area and inserted the dipstick. Got my level which just happened to be midway up the dipstick, then I cut a graduation mark on the rod exactly at that oil level. This will be my reference point for all future oil checks, very easy and fast. Just remove the allen screw and insert the dipstick, I can even add oil using a syringe into the 6/32 tapped hole without ever having to remove the main plug.

I lubed all shafts and hubs with anti seize compound, all parts move better then new. I only wish the snowblower companies would use this lubricant on all critical locations that someday may need to be disassembled, a little oil will not get the job done, it will rust and freeze and become quite a chore to remove. The job would be very easy if it were not for frozen drive pulley hub, impeller, and augers. Fortunately for me, my augers were well lubed and came off easily, others may not be that lucky.

My special thanks to Paul Koltz (snowmann) of Ariens with the valuable information he provided, and to my buddy Marty (majorxlr8n) whose emails were very helpful in my successful endeavor.

itzbinnice wrote:

Hi Will,

A bit overboard, I don't think so.  That's the best way to maintain your snowblower  I'm glad to see there are still individuals that would take the time to stop rust and corrosion in their tracks, giving their machine a few years back.  As for that absurd way of checking the auger gear level, what ever happened to the good 'ole days when you fill it just before the point of overflow?  For that much money, I'd hate to know what a dealer would have charged.  Great job

GREAT JOB WILL!!!! I'm glad to hear you got this all buttoned up! Post some pics of your handiwork as I'm sure many would love to see it.

Trust me guys, Will does some FINE work & is a sticker for DETAIL...

Marty