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Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds (Read 1030 times)
Sucker for Vacs
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Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
05/11/07 at 1:03am
 
Was in Bed Bath and Beyond today where they had several hand vacs setup. Tried both the super expensive Dyson and the not nearly as pricey B and D Pivot 18 volt. The Dyson does look cool as heck, with nifty LEDs and nice attachments. The B and D is merely functional in appearance, and slightly bulkier as well. With no attachments, both had decent suction. However, when I added the extension attachment to the Dyson, the suction went down considerably. So much so that it would not pick up a staple from the counter when placed directly on top of the staple. The B and D seemed to keep the same level of suction when the integrated extension was pulled out. It picked up that staple no problem while still 1/8 of an inch or so away from it. Of course I had emptied both bins before testing, although I can't confirm the condition of each unit's filter.
 
Bottom line, I was disappointed with the Dyson. The B and D clearly had better suction where it counts for cleaning ceiling fan vents and the like, at the end of an extended nozzle. The fact that the B and D is one third the price of the Dyson makes the comparison that much more disappointing. I really wanted to get the Dyson for the cool factor, but now cannot in good conscience do so.
 
Anyone have any thoughts or similar (or for that matter dissimilar) experiences?
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #1 - 05/11/07 at 12:19pm
 
Sucker for Vacs:
 
I brought forward the DC16 thread for you to read.  It's actually a quick read.  And will give you insight into the pros and cons of the DC16 hand held.  MSRP $149:  You can buy the DC16 from BBBY and/or LNT with 20 percent off.  Still not worth the money.  Even at $29, it's not worth the money.  Why?  Run time varies from 3-5 minutes.  Too short for any realistic household, auto, work-shop, garage cleaning.  And as you noted the B&D pivot vacuum at $55 is much better.  The pivot vac has a self-cleaning filter, a feature generally found on full sized bagless vacuums.  A nice feature.  Avoids the need to get up close and personal with the dirty filter and the need to perform regular maintenance on the filter to keep it performing at peak levels.
 
Carmine D.
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Vacuumfreeeke
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #2 - 05/13/07 at 11:11am
 
Go to youtube.com and do a search.  As was posted on a more active vacuum forum, they compared the Black and Decker pivot with the new Dyson and the Dirt Devil Cone...  The Dirt Devil lost (not surprisingly of course), the DYSON came in second (I was truly shocked), and the BLACK AND DECKER of all things placed first.  Quite an interesting little demonstration.  The Dirt Devil wound up shooting white powder through the exhaust in a matter of seconds.  You should have a look!
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #3 - 05/13/07 at 11:17am
 
sorry... that's dirt devil Kone... they spell Kone with a K and I didn't mean to capitalize dirt devil because they aren't worthy of it!
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No Loss of Suction
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #4 - 05/14/07 at 9:29pm
 
Quote from Sucker for Vacs on 05/11/07 at 1:03am:
Was in Bed Bath and Beyond today where they had several hand vacs setup. Tried both the super expensive Dyson and the not nearly as pricey B and D Pivot 18 volt. The Dyson does look cool as heck, with nifty LEDs and nice attachments. The B and D is merely functional in appearance, and slightly bulkier as well. With no attachments, both had decent suction. However, when I added the extension attachment to the Dyson, the suction went down considerably. So much so that it would not pick up a staple from the counter when placed directly on top of the staple. The B and D seemed to keep the same level of suction when the integrated extension was pulled out. It picked up that staple no problem while still 1/8 of an inch or so away from it. Of course I had emptied both bins before testing, although I can't confirm the condition of each unit's filter.

Bottom line, I was disappointed with the Dyson. The B and D clearly had better suction where it counts for cleaning ceiling fan vents and the like, at the end of an extended nozzle. The fact that the B and D is one third the price of the Dyson makes the comparison that much more disappointing. I really wanted to get the Dyson for the cool factor, but now cannot in good conscience do so.

Anyone have any thoughts or similar (or for that matter dissimilar) experiences?

 
Hello Sucker for Vacs,
 
My Dyson DC16 works great.  I bought a second for backup.  Yes the battery runtime is not what I had hoped (and so I bought a second) but the suction on this is very strong.  Buy a second battery (eBay has em) if you want.  But note the battery cannot take a charge without first being in the vac handgrip.  
 
I never use the brush, crevice tools that come with the unit.  Just stick a thin walled  pipe 2 ½’ long or so with Dyson’s ulpolstery tool and use it as a floor tool. – I only clean hard surfaces/floors and cobwebs with this vac.  I can clean our 2 bathroom floors blazingly fast!!  So what! the battery runtime is short (mine runs for 4 ½ minutes) but because this vac’s suction is so strong, combined with a pipe/small floor tool one can point this vacuum effortlessly and quickly - one can smoke cleaning hard surfaces.  Cobwebs are a synch and if needed extend the piping further to reach vaulted ceilings – I do it.  I have dog that sheds and lots of hard surfaces and so this handheld gets more use that all my vacuums combined.
 
Go to epinons or Amazone and read how most all say they like the suction.
 
Just so you know this forum is loaded with anti-Dyson folks.  Bad mouthing Dyson and his products seems to be a favorite past time for these men. – Many are vacuum dealers who sell bagged vacuums and Dyson of course dumps on bags.  There’s plenty of “dump on Dyson posts” on this forum and so when folks as yourself ask an honest question the anti-Dyson-anything people will indeed misguide.  Why?  Easy, Dyson is the enemy to them (bag vacuum selling Dealers) and I guess there’s a little animosity (Dyson invents and becomes a billionaire and then there’s the vacuum dealer/repair guy who cannot invent and/or profit from inventing).  Check it out for yourself (they even attack Dyson himself personally – little men behind big keyboards) > http://www.whatsthebest-vacuum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175484184
 
Re: the Dyson vs. Black & Decker vs. Cone -Youtube.com video…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IGnM5gFzdfc
 
This test is GARBAGE!  And of course the resident “Dump on Dyson folks/dealers of bagged vacuums” here do not point this out.
 
 
“The Dyson sucks more at a time than the other two (Cone and Black & Decker vacs).”  …says the narrator of the test.  I agree.  BUT for some unknown reason the Dyson  quits sucking and cannot even pick/barely pick up cat litter.  What happened?  Easy – the men in lab coats overfilled choked and smothered the Dyson with flour so much so that the cyclones could not handle this intense flour overload and so the pre-motor filter became clogged.  This handheld never had a chance.  Bad science.  Below are 2 pics of the technician overfilling and choking the vac.  There is a Max fill line – but these lab coats are either dumb or intentionally rigged this test.  Think about it...  “The Dyson sucks more at a time than the other two…”  but latter cannot pick up clump cat litter?  Hey lab coats try reading the instructions – don’t overfill.  Any fair minded tester would want to know why this vac went from great suck to little suck. – But not these guys.
 
Truthfully I would not purchase the vac if just using Dyson’s crevice and brush tools provided.  But as for hard surfaces, cobweb and pet hair pickup on my Berber carpet (not picking up pet hair everywhere but peppered throughout carpets) – YES! this vac is great.
 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
It is due time that Dyson – a good man with good inventions gets a little support!

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« Last Edit: 05/15/07 at 7:55pm by No_Loss_of_Suction »  
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #5 - 05/14/07 at 10:49pm
 
Quote from No Loss of Suction on 05/14/07 at 9:29pm:


It is due time that Dyson – a good man with good inventions gets a little support!


 
I posted this epinions review of the DC16 on the Forum in the past and now is a good time to do so again.  It is from a dyson fan of the DC07, who bought the DC16 expecting great results but it failed to deliver.  He returned it to BEST BUY only to learn most of the BEST BUY store's sales of the DC16 ended up returned.  He nails the DC16 shortcomings right on the head.  
 
As my good friend Carl Prohman notes in his Forum post today:
 
Quote from cprohman on 05/14/07 at 11:52am:
Another good source of information about vacuums, and other pretty much any item you could buy, is Epinions.com. There you can find what real people have to say about products they have purchased.

 
http://www.epinions.com/content_278485110404
 
This is the reviewer's P.S. for the DC16 review and sums up the only strength of the DC16 very well: "If it were $29, I might keep it to use as part of a Star Wars Halloween costume or to scare away door-to-door salespeople."
 
That's about as little support for the DC16 handheld that you are going to get.  And considering it's $149 with a 5-6 minute run time, that's about all it deserves.  No where in any of the DC16 product literature and specifications (even the Web site), does dyson say what the actual run time for the DC16 is.  Why?
 
I suggest that dyson gift the DC16 away with the purchase of any of its vacuums.  At least dyson can turn another failed vacuum product into a successful marketing tool (no pun intended).
 
Carmine D.
 
 
 
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #6 - 05/15/07 at 9:35am
 

 
Just so you know this forum is loaded with anti-Dyson folks.  Bad mouthing Dyson and his products seems to be a favorite past time for these men. – Many are vacuum dealers who sell bagged vacuums and Dyson of course dumps on bags.  There’s plenty of “dump on Dyson posts” on this forum and so when folks as yourself ask an honest question the anti-Dyson-anything people will indeed misguide.  Why?  Easy, Dyson is the enemy to them (bag vacuum selling Dealers) and I guess there’s a little animosity (Dyson invents and becomes a billionaire and then there’s the vacuum dealer/repair guy who cannot invent and/or profit from inventing).  Check it out for yourself (they even attack Dyson himself personally – little men behind big keyboards) > [url] http://www.whatsthebest-vacuum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175484184[/url
 
This test is GARBAGE!  And of course the resident “Dump on Dyson folks/dealers of bagged vacuums” here do not point this out
 
 
Hello,We sell both bagless and bagged vacuums.We also repair both bagged and bagless vacuums.
We are always honest about and tell the customers whats the right machine for what type of cleaning they do.
We trade in more bagless cleaners than anything else.The customers ask about dyson and we tell them we like them for the huge profit margin in it.
 
For the last time WHY DONT YOU ASK THE PROFESSIONAL VACUUM SHOP OWNERS,AND INDUSTRY EXPERTS WHAT THEY THINK OF DYSON.
You might not like what your going to hear.
Its not hate for dyson himself [IT'S THE TRUTH]
 
 O.T.
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No Loss of Suction
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #7 - 05/15/07 at 4:11pm
 
Old-timer,
 
I appreciate you being civil and not calling me “a crack pipe smoker” or “not living in the real world” as I have been called here on this forum just for pointing out the differences between Dyson vs. Bags and/or telling how my experience is/was while using a Dyson.
 
Dyson is indeed hated by the jealous here on this forum.  Dyson has been called a “thief”, accused of bulling and strong arming small time inventors.  Dyson has been called “lucky”, “stuffy shirt”, “price gouger”, “should be removed from his position (if his company was public)”, Dyson is continually accused of ripping off old elements of others inventions (all the while it is he who has been radically ripped – one example is - all clear bins aka bagless have been copied/ripped off  from his clear bin).  His DC21, DC18, DC16 etc. are butchered and attacked here on this forum (disguised as reviews) all the while many daily posters here do not speak up.  A Dyson fan cannot even link a simple Dyson article without the Dyson vacuum being attacked - and surprise surprise – the Dyson fans do not come back or rarely come back and post. – a shame.  Dyson is never or very rarely complimented for any of his products, his good deeds, his many innovations (which are copied by many and go unnoticed here on this forum).  If Dyson creates and commits to design awards and pays award money – “it’s not enough’.  If a Dyson user does not clean his/her pre-motor filter and then damage occours – it’s a bad Dyson design.  If the hourly Best Buy staff does not educate a buyer enough – it’s Dyson’s fault. I can go on and on.  Indeed Dyson is hated here - by many of the regulars. – There is even a post dedicated for and to facilitate the ripping and/or finding fault and/or to make personal attacks on James Dyson/his products and/or misguiding newbies pointing out the “infinite downsides” to Dyson ownership.  Even Dyson’s 5 yr. guarantee is not enough. – Amazing!  Regarding the many here who just sit on their hands while Dyson is lied about and maligned.  Shame on them too.
 
Re:
For the last time WHY DONT YOU ASK THE PROFESSIONAL VACUUM SHOP OWNERS,AND INDUSTRY EXPERTS WHAT THEY THINK OF DYSON.  
You might not like what your going to hear.  
Its not hate for dyson himself [IT'S THE TRUTH]
 
OT.  Why not go to the Toyota dealership and ask them what they think of Mercedes.  Dysons break down for sure – like all vacs on planet earth. – No problem for those who own a 5 yr. warrantee.  Question, when a newbie comes to your shop and asks if bags clog and loose suction what do you say?  And what testing/science do you point them to?
 
You know if I was a newbie reading these posts one would think James Dyson drools helplessly and could never “get it right” - but instead Dyson should only be turning to and asking the vacuum dealers/repair men how to invent the future.  MIT, Yale, Stanford, Fortune mag, Business Week, Wall Street Journal, BBC, The History Channel, etc., etc. all have it wrong.  The universities that hand James Dyson honorary doctorates all have it wrong too. - Instead they should drive to their local vac dealer/repair man to learn the secrets to radically innovation and how to make the big money too.
 
 
I know how to think and think outside of the box.  And so there’s no need for me to go to self annointed “Indie, Expert or Pro” to ask anything.  If I want to learn I discover for myself.
 
FYI.  My DC15 with the air leak/”large debris channel” closed up (by me) can suck and lift my carpet off the pad and has NEVER clogged and NEVER looses suction NEVER! And has NEVER needed any repair of any sort.  But I do spend about 5 minutes every 5-6 months to clean the pre-motor filter though.  
 
 
 
No Loss of Suction.
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #8 - 05/15/07 at 4:26pm
 
Many of the people here who tend to be anti-Dyson are open minded, and honest about them. Those people have posted both about what they like and what they don't like about the products. There are some who post here seem to have personal agendas, liking virtually every innovation by every other maker, and disliking every innovation that has the Dyson name attached.  
 
FWIW, here is a link to all the epinions reviews for the DC16:
http://www.epinions.com/Dyson_DC16_Root_6_Vacuum/display_~reviews
The rating of 2.5 stars is significanty lower than most Dyson products, but typical for vacuums, which don't tend to be very highly rated by consumers. Clearly from the reviews the DC16 is a love/hate product, with some reviews at both extremes. The one reccurant complaint is the running time. I still think that Dyson should have addressed this, and there are several options he could have taken:
1. Allow it to also be run on a cord
2. Use battery packs interchangeable with some popular brand of rechargable tool, such as Dewalt
3. Include 2 battery packs, and allow one to recharge while not on the vacuum.
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Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds
Reply #9 - 05/15/07 at 6:08pm
 
Hello Carl and company:
 
I would like to clarify your generalization that the some of the anti-dyson sentiment comes from people with personal agendas.  
 
When criticism of and expressing dyson products' shortcomings (like a high price and short run time on the DC16) are justified and accurate, then it necessary and important to say so, especially on a public vacuum Forum.  And especially by industry professionals whose judgments on such matters are held to a higher standard than all others.
 
If you read and follow the dyson products' criticisms and shortcomings on this Forum (from the exorbitant product prices, to the underwhelming rug performance, to the deterioration of air watts on each subsequent new dyson model to just outright false/misleading written dyson claims), the truth is clear and distinct from the hype. And the industry professionals are always the FIRST to make the distinction here on the Forum.  And the hawking and hyping of the dyson products, even before they are launched, come from the few here who have/are profiting from the high dyson mark-up (and brag about it on the Forum).
 
Carmine D.
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