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/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Vacuum Cleaner Forum >> Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1178859786 Message started by Sucker for Vacs on 05/11/07 at 1:03am |
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Title: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Sucker for Vacs on 05/11/07 at 1:03am Was in Bed Bath and Beyond today where they had several hand vacs setup. Tried both the super expensive Dyson and the not nearly as pricey B and D Pivot 18 volt. The Dyson does look cool as heck, with nifty LEDs and nice attachments. The B and D is merely functional in appearance, and slightly bulkier as well. With no attachments, both had decent suction. However, when I added the extension attachment to the Dyson, the suction went down considerably. So much so that it would not pick up a staple from the counter when placed directly on top of the staple. The B and D seemed to keep the same level of suction when the integrated extension was pulled out. It picked up that staple no problem while still 1/8 of an inch or so away from it. Of course I had emptied both bins before testing, although I can't confirm the condition of each unit's filter. Bottom line, I was disappointed with the Dyson. The B and D clearly had better suction where it counts for cleaning ceiling fan vents and the like, at the end of an extended nozzle. The fact that the B and D is one third the price of the Dyson makes the comparison that much more disappointing. I really wanted to get the Dyson for the cool factor, but now cannot in good conscience do so. Anyone have any thoughts or similar (or for that matter dissimilar) experiences? |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/11/07 at 12:19pm Sucker for Vacs: I brought forward the DC16 thread for you to read. It's actually a quick read. And will give you insight into the pros and cons of the DC16 hand held. MSRP $149: You can buy the DC16 from BBBY and/or LNT with 20 percent off. Still not worth the money. Even at $29, it's not worth the money. Why? Run time varies from 3-5 minutes. Too short for any realistic household, auto, work-shop, garage cleaning. And as you noted the B&D pivot vacuum at $55 is much better. The pivot vac has a self-cleaning filter, a feature generally found on full sized bagless vacuums. A nice feature. Avoids the need to get up close and personal with the dirty filter and the need to perform regular maintenance on the filter to keep it performing at peak levels. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Vacuumfreeeke on 05/13/07 at 11:11am Go to youtube.com and do a search. As was posted on a more active vacuum forum, they compared the Black and Decker pivot with the new Dyson and the Dirt Devil Cone... The Dirt Devil lost (not surprisingly of course), the DYSON came in second (I was truly shocked), and the BLACK AND DECKER of all things placed first. Quite an interesting little demonstration. The Dirt Devil wound up shooting white powder through the exhaust in a matter of seconds. You should have a look! |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Vacuumfreeeke on 05/13/07 at 11:17am sorry... that's dirt devil Kone... they spell Kone with a K and I didn't mean to capitalize dirt devil because they aren't worthy of it! |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/14/07 at 9:29pm Sucker for Vacs wrote:
Hello Sucker for Vacs, My Dyson DC16 works great. I bought a second for backup. Yes the battery runtime is not what I had hoped (and so I bought a second) but the suction on this is very strong. Buy a second battery (eBay has em) if you want. But note the battery cannot take a charge without first being in the vac handgrip. I never use the brush, crevice tools that come with the unit. Just stick a thin walled pipe 2 ½’ long or so with Dyson’s ulpolstery tool and use it as a floor tool. – I only clean hard surfaces/floors and cobwebs with this vac. I can clean our 2 bathroom floors blazingly fast!! So what! the battery runtime is short (mine runs for 4 ½ minutes) but because this vac’s suction is so strong, combined with a pipe/small floor tool one can point this vacuum effortlessly and quickly - one can smoke cleaning hard surfaces. Cobwebs are a synch and if needed extend the piping further to reach vaulted ceilings – I do it. I have dog that sheds and lots of hard surfaces and so this handheld gets more use that all my vacuums combined. Go to epinons or Amazone and read how most all say they like the suction. Just so you know this forum is loaded with anti-Dyson folks. Bad mouthing Dyson and his products seems to be a favorite past time for these men. – Many are vacuum dealers who sell bagged vacuums and Dyson of course dumps on bags. There’s plenty of “dump on Dyson posts” on this forum and so when folks as yourself ask an honest question the anti-Dyson-anything people will indeed misguide. Why? Easy, Dyson is the enemy to them (bag vacuum selling Dealers) and I guess there’s a little animosity (Dyson invents and becomes a billionaire and then there’s the vacuum dealer/repair guy who cannot invent and/or profit from inventing). Check it out for yourself (they even attack Dyson himself personally – little men behind big keyboards) > http://www.whatsthebest-vacuum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175484184 Re: the Dyson vs. Black & Decker vs. Cone -Youtube.com video… http://youtube.com/watch?v=IGnM5gFzdfc This test is GARBAGE! And of course the resident “Dump on Dyson folks/dealers of bagged vacuums” here do not point this out. “The Dyson sucks more at a time than the other two (Cone and Black & Decker vacs).” …says the narrator of the test. I agree. BUT for some unknown reason the Dyson quits sucking and cannot even pick/barely pick up cat litter. What happened? Easy – the men in lab coats overfilled choked and smothered the Dyson with flour so much so that the cyclones could not handle this intense flour overload and so the pre-motor filter became clogged. This handheld never had a chance. Bad science. Below are 2 pics of the technician overfilling and choking the vac. There is a Max fill line – but these lab coats are either dumb or intentionally rigged this test. Think about it... “The Dyson sucks more at a time than the other two…” but latter cannot pick up clump cat litter? Hey lab coats try reading the instructions – don’t overfill. Any fair minded tester would want to know why this vac went from great suck to little suck. – But not these guys. Truthfully I would not purchase the vac if just using Dyson’s crevice and brush tools provided. But as for hard surfaces, cobweb and pet hair pickup on my Berber carpet (not picking up pet hair everywhere but peppered throughout carpets) – YES! this vac is great. http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/498783024_06d87a3a33_o.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/498783028_204f8db8b1_o.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/14/07 at 10:49pm No Loss of Suction wrote:
I posted this epinions review of the DC16 on the Forum in the past and now is a good time to do so again. It is from a dyson fan of the DC07, who bought the DC16 expecting great results but it failed to deliver. He returned it to BEST BUY only to learn most of the BEST BUY store's sales of the DC16 ended up returned. He nails the DC16 shortcomings right on the head. As my good friend Carl Prohman notes in his Forum post today: cprohman wrote:
http://www.epinions.com/content_278485110404 This is the reviewer's P.S. for the DC16 review and sums up the only strength of the DC16 very well: "If it were $29, I might keep it to use as part of a Star Wars Halloween costume or to scare away door-to-door salespeople." That's about as little support for the DC16 handheld that you are going to get. And considering it's $149 with a 5-6 minute run time, that's about all it deserves. No where in any of the DC16 product literature and specifications (even the Web site), does dyson say what the actual run time for the DC16 is. Why? I suggest that dyson gift the DC16 away with the purchase of any of its vacuums. At least dyson can turn another failed vacuum product into a successful marketing tool (no pun intended). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/15/07 at 9:35am Just so you know this forum is loaded with anti-Dyson folks. Bad mouthing Dyson and his products seems to be a favorite past time for these men. – Many are vacuum dealers who sell bagged vacuums and Dyson of course dumps on bags. There’s plenty of “dump on Dyson posts” on this forum and so when folks as yourself ask an honest question the anti-Dyson-anything people will indeed misguide. Why? Easy, Dyson is the enemy to them (bag vacuum selling Dealers) and I guess there’s a little animosity (Dyson invents and becomes a billionaire and then there’s the vacuum dealer/repair guy who cannot invent and/or profit from inventing). Check it out for yourself (they even attack Dyson himself personally – little men behind big keyboards) > [url] http://www.whatsthebest-vacuum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1175484184[/url This test is GARBAGE! And of course the resident “Dump on Dyson folks/dealers of bagged vacuums” here do not point this out Hello,We sell both bagless and bagged vacuums.We also repair both bagged and bagless vacuums. We are always honest about and tell the customers whats the right machine for what type of cleaning they do. We trade in more bagless cleaners than anything else.The customers ask about dyson and we tell them we like them for the huge profit margin in it. For the last time WHY DONT YOU ASK THE PROFESSIONAL VACUUM SHOP OWNERS,AND INDUSTRY EXPERTS WHAT THEY THINK OF DYSON. You might not like what your going to hear. Its not hate for dyson himself [IT'S THE TRUTH] O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/15/07 at 4:11pm Old-timer, I appreciate you being civil and not calling me “a crack pipe smoker” or “not living in the real world” as I have been called here on this forum just for pointing out the differences between Dyson vs. Bags and/or telling how my experience is/was while using a Dyson. Dyson is indeed hated by the jealous here on this forum. Dyson has been called a “thief”, accused of bulling and strong arming small time inventors. Dyson has been called “lucky”, “stuffy shirt”, “price gouger”, “should be removed from his position (if his company was public)”, Dyson is continually accused of ripping off old elements of others inventions (all the while it is he who has been radically ripped – one example is - all clear bins aka bagless have been copied/ripped off from his clear bin). His DC21, DC18, DC16 etc. are butchered and attacked here on this forum (disguised as reviews) all the while many daily posters here do not speak up. A Dyson fan cannot even link a simple Dyson article without the Dyson vacuum being attacked - and surprise surprise – the Dyson fans do not come back or rarely come back and post. – a shame. Dyson is never or very rarely complimented for any of his products, his good deeds, his many innovations (which are copied by many and go unnoticed here on this forum). If Dyson creates and commits to design awards and pays award money – “it’s not enough’. If a Dyson user does not clean his/her pre-motor filter and then damage occours – it’s a bad Dyson design. If the hourly Best Buy staff does not educate a buyer enough – it’s Dyson’s fault. I can go on and on. Indeed Dyson is hated here - by many of the regulars. – There is even a post dedicated for and to facilitate the ripping and/or finding fault and/or to make personal attacks on James Dyson/his products and/or misguiding newbies pointing out the “infinite downsides” to Dyson ownership. Even Dyson’s 5 yr. guarantee is not enough. – Amazing! Regarding the many here who just sit on their hands while Dyson is lied about and maligned. Shame on them too. Re: For the last time WHY DONT YOU ASK THE PROFESSIONAL VACUUM SHOP OWNERS,AND INDUSTRY EXPERTS WHAT THEY THINK OF DYSON. You might not like what your going to hear. Its not hate for dyson himself [IT'S THE TRUTH] OT. Why not go to the Toyota dealership and ask them what they think of Mercedes. Dysons break down for sure – like all vacs on planet earth. – No problem for those who own a 5 yr. warrantee. Question, when a newbie comes to your shop and asks if bags clog and loose suction what do you say? And what testing/science do you point them to? You know if I was a newbie reading these posts one would think James Dyson drools helplessly and could never “get it right” - but instead Dyson should only be turning to and asking the vacuum dealers/repair men how to invent the future. MIT, Yale, Stanford, Fortune mag, Business Week, Wall Street Journal, BBC, The History Channel, etc., etc. all have it wrong. The universities that hand James Dyson honorary doctorates all have it wrong too. - Instead they should drive to their local vac dealer/repair man to learn the secrets to radically innovation and how to make the big money too. I know how to think and think outside of the box. And so there’s no need for me to go to self annointed “Indie, Expert or Pro” to ask anything. If I want to learn I discover for myself. FYI. My DC15 with the air leak/”large debris channel” closed up (by me) can suck and lift my carpet off the pad and has NEVER clogged and NEVER looses suction NEVER! And has NEVER needed any repair of any sort. But I do spend about 5 minutes every 5-6 months to clean the pre-motor filter though. No Loss of Suction. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by cprohman on 05/15/07 at 4:26pm Many of the people here who tend to be anti-Dyson are open minded, and honest about them. Those people have posted both about what they like and what they don't like about the products. There are some who post here seem to have personal agendas, liking virtually every innovation by every other maker, and disliking every innovation that has the Dyson name attached. FWIW, here is a link to all the epinions reviews for the DC16: http://www.epinions.com/Dyson_DC16_Root_6_Vacuum/display_~reviews The rating of 2.5 stars is significanty lower than most Dyson products, but typical for vacuums, which don't tend to be very highly rated by consumers. Clearly from the reviews the DC16 is a love/hate product, with some reviews at both extremes. The one reccurant complaint is the running time. I still think that Dyson should have addressed this, and there are several options he could have taken: 1. Allow it to also be run on a cord 2. Use battery packs interchangeable with some popular brand of rechargable tool, such as Dewalt 3. Include 2 battery packs, and allow one to recharge while not on the vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/15/07 at 6:08pm Hello Carl and company: I would like to clarify your generalization that the some of the anti-dyson sentiment comes from people with personal agendas. When criticism of and expressing dyson products' shortcomings (like a high price and short run time on the DC16) are justified and accurate, then it necessary and important to say so, especially on a public vacuum Forum. And especially by industry professionals whose judgments on such matters are held to a higher standard than all others. If you read and follow the dyson products' criticisms and shortcomings on this Forum (from the exorbitant product prices, to the underwhelming rug performance, to the deterioration of air watts on each subsequent new dyson model to just outright false/misleading written dyson claims), the truth is clear and distinct from the hype. And the industry professionals are always the FIRST to make the distinction here on the Forum. And the hawking and hyping of the dyson products, even before they are launched, come from the few here who have/are profiting from the high dyson mark-up (and brag about it on the Forum). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/15/07 at 6:54pm Hi No Loss,what do we tell our customers when they ask us if bags clog and the suction starts to diminish. We tell them that triple filtered and self sealing bags do start to cause airmovement loss,most machines work on cyclonic suction principle,bagged,bagless,central vacuums,which means that the heavier debris is forced to the outside of the bag or container. The dirty air that excapes is filtered by one of 2 ways,either the filters inside the bag or a premotor filter and lastly a true hepa [non lifetime] replaceable filter.Which by the way if not changed at the prescribed intevals can void the warranty.Is that honest enough for you. Some of us have been around long enough to know the difference. I want you to give me your honest opinion,on the following question. If dyson used a filtrete bag [coating] on the shroud and straitened out the high speed cyclones [ i.e.eliminate them all together]would the vacuum work better and have more airmovement for a longer period of time?. B.T.W. my electrolux silverardo from 1982 measures the airmovement between the bag and the bagcage,and shuts off when it's senses a bag change. Did electrolux make a big deal out of this[NO].Because they have had it since 1952 with the model 60. Is this a benefit to the customer, no not really all it does it saves the customer from opening the machine up and checking the bag capacity[this takes a 7 year old 10 seconds to do]. how many dimes,nickels, and pennies can you pick up in your dc 15?will it hurt the vacuum?. And i still say that the sanitaire 782/785 upright is the best vacuum out there in an upright,although it has a 12'' nozzle,and a smallish top load bag[remember those].and it's only 159.95 and a little higher in some parts of the country. And yes it's got 2 motors,Sort of set up like an lux legacy upright which is in the dyson price range,it's the sanitaires bigger brother. Why dont you ask miele why they got out of the upright market? It was not because of dyson.And while your at it why dont you ask bosch/siemens too. and im happy that i did not hurt your feelings,you cant hurt mine i dont have any :D regards O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by cprohman on 05/15/07 at 8:53pm As I have said in the past, I have no quarrel with bonefide criticisms. With as many new products as Dyson has come out with, it isn't surprising that they have had some learning to do. Examples that I consider to be bonefide criticisms include the short running time of the DC16, the weak brushroll on the DC07, the heavy feel of the DC15, the lack of a motorhead on the DC11, or the low airwatts of some later vacs like the DC15. On the other hand, the criticism doesn't stop there. There have been attempts to generalize from maintenence issues with DC01-DC05 models to the later models, a generalization which hasn't turned out to be valid. US Dysons have by all accounts been reasonably reliable, so long as users remember to clean the pre-motor filter. There have been attempts to blast them as flimsy, while in truth they stand up to heavy use well, from my experience. There have been blasts at the motor, which it turns out has been a reliable, good perorming motor, by all accounts. There have been blasts at the claim that the pre-motor filter and HEPA are lifetime filters, while my experience shows they even stand up to commercial use without needing replacement, so I don't think there should be any reason why a homeowner would need to replace them, barring something unusual. There have been attempts to claim that the Dyson ball was the same as something developed by another inventor, even after the court ruled otherwise. Compared to Dysons, all other brands seem to get praised here for their innovations, some of which seem of questionable value. The fact is that while there are certainly shortcomings in some Dyson vacuums, there are also plenty of things about them that that are innovative, and well thought out, new ideas that will benefit the industry in years to come. If all Dysons, and all things about Dysons, are as bad as some here would have you believe, why are other vacuum makers rushing to copy them? Why do copies like the LG Canister, the Europro, the Fusion, etc, get praised here for their copies, while the Dyson gets no praise for the original innovation? Some of these copies, rather than being praised, got severely panned by other critics such as CR. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/15/07 at 9:04pm Carl: As always, you are a man of kind words and intellect. But you missed the biggest and oldest criticism of all for the dyson products! The exorbitant prices and mark up. And the disparity among big box retailers for dyson discounts: Not 10 percent according to dyson MAP (and professed by dyson insiders here on the Forum) but 20 percent (and even 30 percent) by at least 4 major retailers now, even on the latest and greatest dyson models. How can indy's, who are policed and punished by dyson on lowering prices, compete with these prices? They can't. That's fine. They don't care. They'll make up the difference on repairs. I took Kenneth J's side on the invention of the Ball facilitator. I still do. And the fact that the court decision did not rule in Kenneth J's favor does not mean that he did not have the patent before dyson. The facts clearly show he did. I don't think there was any criticism of the panasonic one fan motor used in the dyson DC07. It's been in the industry for over 30 years. What I said and others (Jimmy P/OT) is that it is the same motor used in the $59 Panasonic upright. Recall some dyson experts called me a liar when I made this statement on the Forum. It's common knowledge now that I was right. As I said the industry professionals are the FIRST to make the accurate and valid criticisms of the dyson products. Consumers, like epinions that you like to reference, generally take 6-9 months after product launch to reaffirm the same shortcomings and findings. Case in point: Recall I blasted the DC11 in April 2004 on the Forum when it launched. Why? Over-priced, over-weight, and weak power nozzle unsuited for USA rugs. Dyson experts and lovers kow towed my criticisms. Why? Personal agendas? Whatever their reasons they were wrong. In October 2004, BEST BUY stores pulled the DC11 from its shelves. (I was the first to report that fact here on the Forum before it even happened. Several dyson experts and insiders called me crazy. One even called the BEST BUY store in Woodbridge VA to contradict me on the Forum because some "local yokel" on the tele denied the fact. Of course the local yokel would!). By Feb 2005, dyson pulled the DC11 off the USA market. I'm sure you remember all these facts very well just as I stated them. Personal agenda/professional expert judgement? Which is it, my friend? Which? blasted dyson for 8 consecutive years for the worse in vacuum reliability in both canns and uprights. No doubt the reason in part dyson extended the new vacuum warranty to 5 years. No personal agenda for anti-dyson sentiment by Which?. Just reporting the facts from their surveys. No personal agendas. I never denied the criticism of the HOOVER Fusion by CR, although it has not kept the product from being a popular seller. I called it right at Wal*Mart and Sam's. The HOOVER Fusion was a much better product for the sales venue at Wal*Mart stores than the dyson. Dyson got canned, and the second generation of Fusions are now at Wal*Mart and Sam's stores going on the 3rd consecutive year. Dyson is out. Finally, since this thread is dyson DC16 versus B&D pivot vac, I was the first on this Forum to post about the B & D pivot hand vacuum as a better option to the dyson. Others quickly agreed (not dyson lovers tho). No personal agenda, just the facts and truth. The next dyson to fall and fail is the DC21 Stowaway. Awful excuse for a canister vacuum. Dyson was too late to market with this cann and overpriced it by $250. Repeat of the DC11 only 2 years later. Just like the DC16. Now for my final criticism which comes straight from dyson's own boasting! How can 500 engineers make so many miscalls and product failures in such short time? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/16/07 at 10:36am Why do I keep hearing so called experts quoting that Dyson has high margins? One of the reasons most small town dealers object to the product is because of low margin percentages. As always this leaves me confused if this is lack of knowledge or purposefully misleading. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/16/07 at 12:59pm JimB: When 4 big box retailers can currently (like right now as I post) have sales discounting new dyson vacuums (including the DC18 and DC21) 15-20-30 percent (and indy's can't due to 10 percent MAP) AND STILL MAKE MONEY, there are big mark ups on the vacuums. You know what they are and so do the dealers who post here. Why are you surprised and confused? If I recall, you were pleased and puffy to have the whole piece of the dyson pie (as you called it). So tell us, how do you sell with these big box retailers and their dyson discounts of 15-20-30 percent? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/16/07 at 2:23pm I have not seen the 30% you refer to but as we both already know Big Box stores can operate at a much lower margin than local stores due to the large volume they move. These national chains can drop down to the single digits in margin and still be profitable with their overhead covered by quantity. As we both know local stores often depend on a differentiated product with benefits not typically available at the chains. They then depend on much higher margins to turn a profit. Dyson has a lower margin (markup) than most local shops find acceptable. As for price, any retailer is free to sell for any price they want. If you walk into your local shop and they want to sell you a dyson at 30% off they are free to, but as we know they won't as it would be cutting into what is already considered a slim margin. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/16/07 at 3:22pm JimB: How can a big box retailer/Indy cut 15-20-30 percent off dyson MSRP if it's a "slim" profit margin? Case in point: The DC18 Slim is $469. It is currently on sale at 4 big box retailers for 20-30 percent off (minimum). Less 30 percent is a discount (lost sales profit) of $141 with a selling price of $328. At what wholesale cost does the DC18 have to be to provide a "slim" margin of profit (to you/Indy/big box retailers) with a selling price of $328? What I'm really asking is: If you can't make a decent profit with 30 percent off on dyson MSRP, then it doesn't pay for you to sell dysons. And you already told us (several times on several occasions over the course of several years )that you are making money selling dysons (paying down your mortgage I believe is the phrase you used). To be competitive selling dysons, with 4 current big box retailers advertising in newspapers and mail outs discounts of 20-30 percent (what happened to dyson MAP of 10 percent?), you have to sell AT LEAST for 30 percent off dyson MSRP if not more. And at 30 percent off, everyone is making money? I don't know about you, but a 30 percent rake off MSRP is indicative of a high profit margin on dysons not a "slim" profit margin. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/16/07 at 4:56pm cprohman wrote:
Cpro, Thank you. But as is the case most often in this mostly anti-Dyson forum. - No one says "well said Cpro". I say and it can be easly proved out (re-read the anti-Dyson garbage posts) - you spoke the truth. No Loss of Suction |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/16/07 at 5:27pm Carmine, If everyone is selling dyson at 30% off it should be rather easy for you to post several links as such... Once again the fact is Dyson has lower margins than other vacuums that are sold in vacuum shops. You either don't know this simple industry fact or are choosing to mislead. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/16/07 at 5:40pm JimB: Answer/don't answer a simple straight forward question (and avoid the dramatizations). Instead you duck and move, bob and weave. In one post you claim "slim" dyson profit margins; in another you claim "lower." Yes, I agree 50 percent profit margin is lower than 100 percent (for the same brand and model). But neither is categorized "slim" and "low" from my perspective (and I suspect others). If one retailer sells at 30 percent off dyson MSRP, then all have to discount the same and/or more to compete. Right now, as I said, 4 retailers are selling at 15-20-30 percent off all dyson models including the DC18. I suspect if a dyson customer went to any other USA retailer/Indy with this information, and the retailer wanted to sell a dyson vacuum, it would have to at least match the 30 off price and/or the dyson customer would walk out empty handed. What would you do if confronted with a customer who says that big box store ABC has the DC18 Slim for $328? Will you beat the price to make the sale? Match the price? Or lose the sale (because of a "slim" and/or "low" profit margin?) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/16/07 at 6:03pm Being in JimB's shoes i would match the price get rid of the merchandise and either tell dyson to price match to me or take his stuff back.I know of dealers that have done the latter. I have told Jim B on this forum that this is going to happen.A year ago. The other diliema is that the repacks are showing up everywhere and it's been going on for a while. remember what i told you about EBAY? How much service can you sell Jim.[not 150.00 worth i bet. and you still get to put out the fires as a warranty station.And being a warranty dealer you have to fix it for free dont you. weather you like it or not. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by cprohman on 05/16/07 at 9:55pm Just curious, Carmine, but are you also then critical of brands like Miele or Simplicity that have higher markups and profit margins than Dyson? I've always thought that was a rather ludicrous criticism. If consumers think a product it worth the price, then it is worth it. Now, I don't drive a Lexus, or wear a Rolex because to me they aren't worth it, but I'm also not going to criticize someone who does, and tell them they have spent their money unwisely. As for my DC07s, they are going fiver years old now, and when you figure in all costs, they will have cost less to operate on an annual basis than the cheap, disposable bagged Hoovers, Eurekas or the Simplicity they replaced. Were they reasonably priced? For my purposes, yes. As for your statement that they are gone from Sam's and Walmart, last time I was in them, which was about a month ago, both were still selling Dysons. Are you saying that this has changed in the last month? |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/16/07 at 10:09pm Carl: Miele and RICCAR/Simplicity are worthy of their selling prices, which are consistent across Indy's nationwide. Dyson is not worthy and not consistent across retailers. Don't take my word alone. Ask any vacuum industry professional. They will ALL tell you the same. Are they ALL wrong? Maybe. But I wouldn't bet on it. Dyson is hanging on by a LEGAL thread in the Wal*Mart stores because of contract requirements. Sam's stores has a separate agreement with dyson. And I would not be surprised if the Sam's stores get spun off this year from Wal*mart. At Wal*Mart, the 2 year dyson warranty, $378 set in stone retail price AND regularly advertised discounts of 20 percent off by several well known retailers' dyson prices has guaranteed "zero" Wal*Mart sales of the DC07 Original since August 2006. When the contract between dyson and Wal*Mart ends, it will NOT get renewed as it currently reads. That's my sense unless dyson and Wal*Mart make come major contract changes to the existing agreement and dyson increases the warranty on the Wal*Mart DC07 to 5 years like its other models. In some Wal*Mart stores, the dyson boxes have been taken off the shelves long ago and not restocked in many many months. It's a dead item for all intents and purposes (just as the DC07 All Carpet). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/17/07 at 10:11am Next thing you know you will be predicting dyson will be out of Best Buy by the end of the year. Oops you have already done that. How did that work for you? Why all the bobbing and weaving where are the all the links to all those retailers that are selling dysons being sold at 30% off? Your attack is based on a falsehood. By the way you may want to visit a forum like the vdf where dealers only post before you try speaking for all dealers. There are a growing number find room for dyson on thier floor. So those several links to all those retailers selling for 30% off? |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by cprohman on 05/17/07 at 12:11pm The strange thing about your argument that Miele is "worth" the high prices in the US is that they charge so much less for it in Europe, where it is not sold as a super-premuim vacuum. As I recall, Dyson and Miele are sold for about the same price in Europe, whereas in the US Meile is frequently twice the price of a Dyson. Why, in your opinion, is Miele "worth" more in the US than in Europe? My neighbor loves her Miele, but she bought it in Europe, and buys her bags in Europe because she doesn't think they are "worth" the American prices. As for Riccar/Simplicity, I did buy one once. It was an OK vacuum, but we had a lot of problems with it, and no one liked it. My personal opinion is that it wasn't remotely "worth" what I paid for it, and I would never consider buying another. The fact is that value is in the eye of the beholder, and reasonable minds can and will differ, which is why we have so many brands to choose from. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/17/07 at 12:25pm Well Carl, I hate to use vehicles as a comparison but I have to answer your question. Mercedes and BMW's are more expensive in the USA too vice Germany. Much more. The import taxes and excise fees for both German made cars and vacuums are the reason. I suspect one of the reasons dyson extended the warranty to 5 years in August 2006 was to give buyers a "perception" of added value and quality. It would not have done so if there were a pervasive belief that it was a valuable brand for the money. But dyson then immediately upped the prices on all the subsequent new models: DC17, 18, 21. The DC17 sales are tepid, so are the DC18 Slim: Hence the retailers' discounts. The DC21 is doa. Dyson may start gifting away DC16 hand helds with the DC21 and lower the price by $100. Still, sales for new dysons are hitting a brick wall. What does dyson do now to add value? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/17/07 at 12:31pm JimB wrote:
JimB: Take a look on the thread about BEST BUY and Sunday Parade. You'll find your answer. Recall please I said advertised prices 15-20-30 percent off MSRP. All these percentages above dyson MAP of 10 percent. BTW, you didn't answer my question about the customer who comes into your store to buy a dyson and says it's for sale at 30 percent off at another retailer? What do you do? I'm sure SOME Indy's like yourself are adding the dyson line. For many reasons. In part to get a rake off on the genuine parts to do the lucrative dyson repairs. My point is if you ask Indy's about dyson versus other brands and which is better: NONE will give dyson as the best. SEBO, Lindhaus, RICCAR/Simplicity, Miele, Aerus, Kirby (all bagged) are the majority answers. Dyson may get an honorable mention for the best bagless maybe but................not when price is factored into the question. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/17/07 at 2:36pm JimB wrote:
Working just fine. With Electrolux bagged vacuums back in BEST BUY stores (as I predicted in Sept 2006 after the October Consumer Reports rated the models highly) and assorted other bagless brands like Euro-Pro Infinity, BISSELL Heathy Home, Velocity and Momentum, and assorted HOOVER and Dirt Devil makes and models, dyson sales are hitting a brick wall. Big box retailers like Wal*Mart, BEST BUY, etc. are struggling so far this year with sales and have been since 2006. For several reasons. First, the housing market bubble burst in 2006 and the housing sector is way down (something about subprime mortgage market?). This is bringing down other related industries that are connected to housing sales, like household appliances. So major appliance sales in big box stores, including vacuums, and especially the most expensive vacuums [read dysons] are way down in 2007. Second, high fuel costs are cutting into family and people's budgets for household needs and wants. Average price of a gallon of gas in the USA is $3.10 for regular. Retailers, like BEST BUY, Circuit City, Kohl's, TARGET are feeling the pain. What do they do? Well, one thing they are and will do is move merchandise from high cost items that are lingering too long on shelves (like dyson vacuums) to more popular selling cell phones and other consumer electronic gadgets. Make sense? :) By mid summer and into fall 2007, many big box retailers will have already made changes to store merchandise and shift funds around. Why? In preparation for the the final quarter. With the Christmas holiday sales, the last quarter in 2007 is the bread and butter time of the year for retailers. If they don't make it then, the year is shot. The recent pervasive discounts on dysons (currently by 4 separate big box chains at least 20-30 percent including the latest dyson models) so early in the year is a precursor. In the past these discounts were seen in the final quarter on limited (read: older models). Liquidating the merchandise now before its too late is a sign of more drastic things to come to sure up sales later in the year. If high priced items like vacuums that aren't selling (read: dyson) are cut back now and by mid 2007, and I believe they are and will be reduced not just at BB but all retailers, Indy's will reap huge rewards. High quality minded vacuum customers will go to the Indy's for the rest of 2007 for their vacuum purchases. Then, dyson will wish it was kinder and gentler to the indy's. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/17/07 at 5:39pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
JimB: Take a look on the thread about BEST BUY and Sunday Parade. You'll find your answer. Recall please I said advertised prices 15-20-30 percent off MSRP. All these percentages above dyson MAP of 10 percent. BTW, you didn't answer my question about the customer who comes into your store to buy a dyson and says it's for sale at 30 percent off at another retailer? What do you do? Carmine D. [/quote] I have read your other posts and I have seen no "dyson" sales as you falsely and deceptively imply. All the sales you mention are what appear to be weeklong sales by retailers on thier whole floorcare product runs. All vacuums of all brands in the store are on sale for the same percentages off and yet not surprisingly you only attack dyson. Any pro knows that dyson has low margins, Honesty just doesn't fit into your personal anti dyson crusade. Why not attack any of the other brands part of the "all floorcare" sales as they are being discounted at the same percentages. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/17/07 at 6:03pm Hi ,I would be more than willing to tell you the margins on anything,machines,parts,labor. does 240.00 sound right for the dc18. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/17/07 at 6:18pm old-timer wrote:
No wrong on the dc18, but I know it is not one you carry. However, as you are more than happy to tell us margins on anything, how about the percent of margin markup for the top brands you do carry? |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/17/07 at 6:33pm Pick one,We have access to ,miele,bosch,riccar,simplcity,aerus,sanitaire,eureka,hoover,emer,kirby,electrolux a.b. nutone,hayden,h.p vacu flo,galaxie,cana vac,allegro,beam. The profit margins range from 20% to 1000%.The real trick is selling a customer something thats going to give them 15 plus years of service,with a little tune up every 8 to 10 years. If a customer asks us why vacuums are so expensive,we tell them that theres a lot of money in it.Of course the products got to be worthy of the price. Unfortunatly dysons not there yet,maybe someday, but not thru the box stores.I'm sure i speak for the vacuum people that are in this for the long run. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/17/07 at 6:41pm JimB: I appropriately indicated the full details of the discounts. Go back and read again. I always speak the truth. I have no reason to deceive and lie. I'm retired. I don't profit from the sales of any brands. My point in singling out dyson (ALWAYS) is to show that Jimmy P/OT was right. The dyson MAP of 10 percent (WHICH YOU and other dyson insiders said was SET IN STONE) is ancient history. And has been for months. Retailers routinely thumb their noses at the dyson MAP by offering 15-20-and 30 percent off MSRP for dysons. And all dysons not just selected models (read older models). Even with your blind loyalty to the dyson brand, and admitting you were wrong on this matter, you can't deny that dyson has failed miserably to keep MAP enforced. EVEN ON ITS NEW MODELS 20 percent off among the big box retailers is a common buisness practice ALWAYS: Just as Jimmy the Pro predicted a year ago. ;) The big box retailers have dyson by the short hairs and they are squeezing. Why? Dyson sales hit a brick wall. MAP is kaput. Jimmy the Pro gave you "the" answer to my question. You read it. Any and all vacuum cleaner sales people would give the same answer as Jimmy. Meet the price to make the sale. I asked you twice. You didn't answer. (Duck and move, bob and weave). Asking you for a third time would get the same result and be futile? Your silence is conspicuously noted and very instructive. Dyson doesn't kow tow to you. If you admitted selling dysons at 30 percent off on a public vacuum Forum, dyson would cut you off. Can't do that with Kohl's, BBBY, Lowe's, LNT and you might as well go down the list who sell dysons. You and the Indy's are second class business clients to dyson. It doesn't need you and your dyson business (EXCEPT TO REPAIR). That's truth and that's the reality. And that's EXACTLY what Jimmy the Pro told you. You were duly warned. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/18/07 at 2:32am old-timer wrote:
Old Timer, Quote:
Thanks for your honest explanation. But this is exactly what Dyson exploits and exploits well – 100% constant suction vs. decreased suction. Dyson gives a number that’s simple and understandable – 100% (suction) VS. nothing. Bag and/or filter vacuum manufactures say nothing as to exactly what the suction decrease is and at what point a decrease occurs (it’s fair to give consumers a reference – at ¼ full = % suction loss, ½ full = % suction loss. Go back and re-read your explination to me on how much a bag and/or filter suction decreases. You do not give a number. Why? Because the vacuum makers do not give you a number (or at least not publicly). Why? Because the makers of the bags do not give a number (or at least not publicly). 3M the Filterete makers do not give a decrease suction number but only say the Filterete lasts 20% longer than other bags (and this is a mystery too. – what other bags exactly). Personally I think the public would be ok with a 10% decrease of suction but because bag makers, bag vacuum makers say nothing, this leaves consumers in the dark and questioning why? - And so, if Dyson claims bags and filters clog and no maker of bags or bag vacuum say nothing, then they think the Dyson claim must be true. Quote:
Thanks. I got a good laugh at the crack pipe rip. I even told my wife, she laughed too. FYI, I do not take drugs or alcohol and have seen first hand people kill themselves with this garbage. I gotta go. No Loss of Suction |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/18/07 at 9:48am O.K.,we could go back and forth till the end of time about this no loss deal,you say it works and i say it works for a little while. In my opinion the slogan should say no lss of suction for a little while. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by RAT on 05/18/07 at 11:37am old-timer wrote:
Bagged vacuum manufacturers would have to state the type of test dirt in order to report on a drop in suction. A fine powdery test dirt will reduce suction much more quickly than larger particles. Some things like oily dog hair are likely to improve filtration, since dirt will stick to them. The problem with this discussion is that we are only considering one aspect of vacuum performance. An upright with a good agitation can clean effectively over a wide range of suction values. Given Dyson's performance in standardized tests by a leading consumer magazine, I would assume that Dyson needs to continue working on agitation. Will be interesting to see how the newer Dyson models perform in the next test results. I'm also not particularly fond of emptying any bagless vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/18/07 at 11:45am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I can only assume your are reffering to the below question. "BTW, you didn't answer my question about the customer who comes into your store to buy a dyson and says it's for sale at 30 percent off at another retailer? What do you do? " How can I make this more clear? I am saying you are misleading in asking the question. I have challenged you to back it up. If retailers are dropping to 30% of dyson map surely as they all meet each others price there are plenty of links you can copy here to show this is an honest question. All these national retailers you refer to as cutting dyson price have websites can we please see the links the all those that are at this 30% below msrp? All you seem to do is say that "you" said it in another thread so it must be true. As I have said before I don't think a independent shop can make dyson their main go to line but I does confuse me those who want to go after them have trouble not going overboard into exageration and misleading. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 1:32pm JimB: I posted the information several times. On another thread. Right now 4 big box retailers are offering 15-20-30 percent off MSRP on all dysons (and other floorcare brands) including the DC18 Slim. Lowe's, Kohl's, Linens-N-Things, Bed Bath and Beyond. Not just week long sales as you say. Lowes started May 13 and the sale runs through May 27. Discounting 20 percent off dyson MSRP including the DC18 Slim. BBBY, LNT have ALL MONTH sales of 20 percent discount (including dysons not exempting dysons as they once did). Kohl's is a SIX DAY sale from May 17-22 with 15-20-30 percent off on ally dysons including the DC17 and DC18. (NO QUANTITY LIMITS). And it runs consecutive with a dyson mail-in-rebate of $50 on JUST dyson vacuums which started May 6 and ran through May 16. Now, here's what I wonder. Suppose a Kohl's customer bought a dyson and got $50 off (mail in rebate that takes a year). Then gets a mail-out with 30 percent off the same dyson vacuum. What does the Kohl's customer do? Get's ugly doesn't it? YOU and other dyson insiders said dyson enforces the 10 percent MAP. SET IN STONE was the phrase one dysoner used and YOU agreed. Dyson can't enforce MAP except with you and the Indy's. Big box retailers dictate to dyson, not the other way around. I just posted [for the 4th time] to you the obvious examples of big box retailers' violations in advertised sales in newspapers and mail-outs of discounts higher than dyson MAP 10 percent. How clear can I make it for you! You said big box retailers would find "creative" ways of dyson discounting and stick with the MAP. ;D They have. They routinely thumb their noses at the dyson MAP of 10 percent and sell for 20 percent and more off (including the newest models). Duck and dodge, bob and weave. You're living in a "vacuum" pardon the pun. Take the dyson blinders off. Look at your dyson competition. You're getting the "business" from dyson (repairs and warranty) and the big box stores are eating into your high dyson markups on the new vacuum sales. ;) Jim, this is just the beginning. Other retailers (like BEST BUY and SEARS) will close ranks with the above retailers and disrespect the dyson MAP. When they do, I'll be sure to post here to you. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/18/07 at 2:34pm Wow, finally had a time to take a quick look at these pricings and no wonder you won't post links to "your" claimed deep dyson price cuts, it seems they don't exist the same way in the real world. Bed bath and beyond seems at MSRP http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/stylePage.asp?order_num=-1&rn=79&rnt=0&ipp=8&brand=162 Linens and things seems to be right on MSRP http://www.lnt.com/family/index.jsp?filter=yes&fCat=1332281&categoryId=1332281&cp=1331608.2016830&fgender=&fbrandid=98861&fpricesort=priceAscending Lowes look right http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&N=0&Ntk=i_products&Ntt=dyson Kohls seems to actually be higher than MSRP http://www.kohls.com/main/subcategory.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=223905033&bmUID=1179512779579 Best buy looks right http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat44700050010&type=category Odd all these business feel they can list at MSRP and still compete when "everyone" is discounting dyson. Odd also that these seem to be the same that someone here are the ones leading the "dyson" pricecutting. Maybe it's time to take off the anti-dyson blinders? No wonder you were ducking a weaving around backing up your claims of widespread dyson price cutting with easy to provide links. :o |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 2:43pm JimB: Lowe's CLEARLY shows the 30 percent off dyson MSRP prices for all dysons (and other floorcare). Glad you found the link. Kohl's does not give the final price unless the customer buys. Why? Kohl's says on the Web site that the manufacturer (dyson) precludes showing the price because IT IS BELOW the maker's "minimum advertised price." Is that proof enough for you? Interesting that Lowe's shows it on the Web site and Kohl's can't? Things do get ugly don't they. Or as Matt mmc likes to diplomatically say: "Interesting." Of course if you get the Sunday newspaper with the Kohl's sale and/or Kohl's mail out, it's there. ;) Obviously you don't, or if you do, you don't read. ;D BBBY and LNT have the monthly 20 percent off coupons (from MSRP on dysons). All you need do is the 20 percent off math. You can do the math? If not let me know. ;) I'll send you the discount coupons from BBBY and LNT too if you don't get the Sunday newspaper with their sales. ;) I didn't say BEST BUY had 15-20-30 off dyson MSRP NOW. I said wait, and it will. And I'll post to let you know. ;) And my point is with 4 big box retailers selling substantially below the dyson MAP AT THE SAME TIME, others will follow. And you and the Indy's are stuck with the MAP. Unless a customer comes in and says hey Jim I can get the DC18 at Kohl's right now for $328 and at BBBY, LNT, and Lowe's for $375. What can you do on the price for the DC18? What do you say to that customer? ;) I know what BEST BUY will say. I know what SEARS will say. I know what all other dyson retailers will say. I know what Jimmy the Pro said. We just don't know what you'd say. (HINT: duck and dodge, bob and weave). ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by D.E.P. on 05/18/07 at 2:52pm Carmine, I looked at the Lowe’s Website and there is nothing in any of the on-line flyers, and nothing in the appliance section about 30% off anything. When you add any vacuum to your cart they are full price as is shown on the Vacuum page. I called the store in Piscataway and the person in the appliance department had no idea what I was talking about. They had not heard of any sale for 30% off… Please provide the link to the 30% off at Lowe’s,.. Also – I check the Kohl’s website. You are only eligible to get the 15% - 20% - 30% off if you use a Kohl’s charge card. You also have to have the mailer with the coupon for the discount. When I called the Kohl's store in Piscataway to check on the discount the manager told me that you do not find out the amount of the discount until you get to the register, then the system randomly decides your percentage off. Bed Bath and Beyond and Linen-N-Things will always take the 20% off of the price even if the item was excluded on the coupon. Let’s remember that anyone can sell anything for any price they like – “MAP” only stands for Minimum Advertised Price… It only means they should not put a print add or internet add showing a lesser amount. A while back Tom Gasko told the forum that if a dealer or store choose to advertise the Dyson for less then MSRP then they simply paid a slightly higher price for the Vacuums then the Store or Dealer that only advertised the MSRP price… Thank you in advance for the Lowe’s Info… Dan |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 3:07pm Hello Dan: Lowes has 20 percent off. Not 30. Good thru May 27. JimB posted the link. The Web prices reflect the 20 percent off already. Interesting that Lowe's does and Kohl's don't. Your exactly right on all the others save the part about paying more. While that may apply to Indy's, it doesn't apply to the big box retailers: Dyson's bread and butter sellers. Right now if dyson even suggested that it would monetarily penalize one of these retailers for violating its MAP (like Lowe's is doing RIGHT NOW ON ITS WEBSITE--caps added for emphasis) the retailer would drop the dyson line in aheart beat. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 3:29pm RAT wrote:
Hello RAT: The latest results for dyson "rug" performance will be interesting. While dyson shows some promise on the new brush rolls (agitation vice the brushbar of the DC07 and 14), it also cut down air watts (suction). AND RAISED the prices. I'm hoping that all the dyson uprights will be rated and ranked. Old and new models so consumers get a flavor for the dyson progress across the entire product line from inception 2002 to 2007. (See if those 500 dyson engineers are worth the money). If I had a choice of using a bagged/bagless vacuum on a dialy bases, I'd choose the bagged everytime. I don't like to dump the bagless. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by cprohman on 05/18/07 at 3:30pm RAT wrote:
RAT's statement is an example of a criticism that is fair, and I agree with what he says above. Bagged vacuums clearly have a drop in suction, but how much drop, and how quickly, is dependent on the dirt type. This is one reason I have speculated that Dysons will sell better in regions that have a lot of fine clay, and fare worse in areas with sandy soil. Sand and dog hair do not block bags, but fine clay can do so fairly quickly. One reason that I have been happy with the Dysons is that I have used them to pick up a lot of fine soil. I also agree that agitation is important, and that the DC07 did not have the best agitation. That's one reason I don't use a DC07 at home where I have deep carpets. On the other hand, agitation isn't as big a factor on glued down commercial carpet, because agitation works by "bouncing" the sand up into the airflow, and glued down carpet doesn't "bounce". Thus airflow is more important than agitation on that type of carpet, and the DC07 has worked very well for me on that carpet type. Regarding the statement that the DC07 won't lose suction "for a little while", I would disagree. Looking at the long term, my 4.5 year old DC07s still have the same suction as when new, so long as the premotor filters have been washed. As far as losing suction over the short term, keep in mind that a brand new Dyson actually starts with lower suction, and as it gets a coating of dirt on the inside, friction with the air decreases, and suction rises. Then, as the pre-motor filter starts plugging, the suction starts falling again, eventually reaching the level that it had when new. In real life, it is essentially constant, so long as you don't fail to clean the pre-motor filter. Thus I believe that the Dyson advertising claim is accurate. On another topic, I found when I tried to buy a Dyson at the Loewes site that at first it listed the MSRP price, but when I entered the zipcode, the price suddenly changed to 20% off. Thus, it appears Carmine is corret on the issue of whether Loews is giving a 20% discount, but it seems that it is dependent on where you are located. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/18/07 at 3:35pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
The Lowes link shows for example the DC07 all floors at $399 which is MSRP. Any chance you can explain how that equals your original claim of 30% off or your new fallback position of 20% off? Come on now, show us all those links of "dyson" sales, should be easy as you are claiming everyone is cutting "dyson" price. Of course as Carl points out some regions of Lowes appear to have an "all floorcare" sale (which is common in the spring) going on but that seems a normal practice for a whole department to have a temporary sale and just is not honest to try to spin that as proof of an one of those brands having thier prices cut. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 3:40pm JimB wrote:
The Lowes link shows for example the DC07 all floors at $399 which is MSRP. Any chance you can explain how that equals your original claim of 30% off or your new fallback position of 20% off? Come on now, show us all those links of "dyson" sales, should be easy as you are claiming everyone is cutting "dyson" price.[/quote] Hello JimB: Here to serve: 20 percent off at Lowes just as Carl and I said. ;) http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&Ne=5000&category=Floor+Care&N=0+1000041 Didn't you say previously that you agreed with the Lowe's discounts of 20 percent. JimB wrote:
$319 on your link and $319 on my link is 20 percent off at Lowes. We agree. I know. You're trying to "punk" me. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/18/07 at 3:50pm So your claim goes from multiple retailers cutting "dyson" prices. Changes to Lowes offering 30% off on dyson changes to Lowes offering 20%off on dyson changes to some regions in lowes offering to 20% off on dyson which turns out to be some regions of lowes offering a 20% off on all floor care sale I will wait with baited breath for your multi paragraph ranting criticism on each of those other brands that are included in any of those "all floor care" sales. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/18/07 at 3:50pm How about the 9 pages of new and reconed dyson's on ebay,are these people going to be shut off, or are they going to get more? How's those prices working for you? can you match there prices ,it looks to me like the box stores are really getting hamered by dyson,and ebay. Want to bet that that cant be stopped???????? good luck boy's your going to need it................... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by JimB on 05/18/07 at 3:56pm old-timer wrote:
O.T. You cant seriously run your business by competing with ebay prices on each product can you? If you can't offer something to the consumer that ebay doesn't there is a huge issue. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by D.E.P. on 05/18/07 at 4:00pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
The Lowes link shows for example the DC07 all floors at $399 which is MSRP. Any chance you can explain how that equals your original claim of 30% off or your new fallback position of 20% off? Come on now, show us all those links of "dyson" sales, should be easy as you are claiming everyone is cutting "dyson" price.[/quote] Hello JimB: Here to serve: 20 percent off at Lowes just as Carl and I said. ;) http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productList&Ne=5000&category=Floor+Care&N=0+1000041 Didn't you say previously that you agreed with the Lowe's discounts of 20 percent. JimB wrote:
$319 on your link and $319 on my link is 20 percent off at Lowes. We agree. I know. You're trying to "punk" me. ;) Carmine D. [/quote] Hi Carmine, Carl, and Jim - Yes - you are all correct - After I put in my zipcode, all the vacuums came up at 20% off the price - They all had a green star next to them and at the page bottom it stated "reflects lower local price". Thank you for the info... Dan |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 4:01pm JimB: You mean my Lowe's and your Lowe's Web sites are different from others? ;) Don't forget BBBY and LNT with 20 percent off all dysons MSRP all month long. EXCEPT if you ask for 30 percent off because you have the Kohl's mailer. ;) What do you think BBBY, BEST BUY, SEARS, and LNT will do? I don't think you want to go there. (Duck, dodge, bob and weave). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 4:07pm D.E.P. wrote:
You're welcome. I plan to buy the DC18. While I got a 20 percent off mailer from Kohl's, my lovely daughter got 30 percent off including the DC18. $328 is a fair price. But I'm holding out. Why? Memorial Day and Labor Day sales. Prices should be even better. You may recall I purchased the DC07 pink for $250 on Labor Day 2006 (after discounts and giftcards). I'm looking to do the same on the DC18. I'm curious to see if the DC18 works on my Mohawk wool medium loop pile rugs. The DC07 didn't. I want to give dyson another chance. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/18/07 at 4:14pm JimB wrote:
O.T. You cant seriously run your business by competing with ebay prices on each product can you? If you can't offer something to the consumer that ebay doesn't there is a huge issue.[/quote] What kind of issue you talking about ,not making money. All the vacuum distributors [that i happen to friends with say all the same thing]All have e-bay sites all wheel and deal,all been doing it for years.It's always the price .Do you think that consumers want to give me %50 to %80 more because I'm a nice guy? And by the way all new machines come with a warranty which some one has to cover weather you like it or not. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/18/07 at 4:24pm Jimmy the Pro/OT: You're wasting your time with JimB. He just doesn't get it. You know what I always like to say: He's a rookie! (small "r") ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson v. Black and Decker Pivot Handhelds Post by old-timer on 05/18/07 at 4:30pm I'm starting to lean that way also,sort of like Gasko. Carl is making a strong showing also.I'm starting to have more respect for him ......... O.T. |
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