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Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only (Read 4556 times)
Trilobite
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #30 - 04/11/07 at 11:36am
 
Hoover didn't even start out making vacuum cleaners! The branched out into this, then latterly made washers driers, dishwashers. Dabbled in toasters, kettles, irons, microwaves and fridges...
 
Besides, the likes of Miele make good vacuums, good washers, good dishwashers, and good driers, so I really don't see why Dyson can't diverge.
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #31 - 04/11/07 at 1:48pm
 
Quote from Trilobite on 04/11/07 at 11:36am:
Hoover didn't even start out making vacuum cleaners! The branched out into this, then latterly made washers driers, dishwashers. Dabbled in toasters, kettles, irons, microwaves and fridges...


 
Hello Trilobite:
 
In the USA, the HOOVER company started in 1907 with the launch of the first HOOVER upright model (If you visit the HOOVER Web Site you can read about it).  Vacuums (upright, tank, canister, stick, and hand held) were HOOVER's mainstay product line while adding floorcare products like waxers, floor washers, shampoers and the like in the late 40's and 50's.  In the 40's and 50's HOOVER also made two irons: One was an aluminum and the other a stainless steel sole plated.  Very good ones too.
 
HOOVER was well entrenched in the vacuum cleaner and floor care products businesses when it added small kitchen appliances in the 60's and 70's like can openers, fry pans, blenders, toasters, table top grills, hair dryers, coffee pots, and even apartment size fridges and washers/dryers.  Mostly by buying out and/or partnering with existing brand makers of these appliances and using the icon HOOVER name.  Did okay.  Alot of these are still around and in use mostly among collectors.  All were quite good and competed with the existing products of the day for sales.  
 
The HOOVER company in the USA was and still is VACUUMS and floor care products.  For almost 100 years.
 
Carmine D.
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #32 - 04/11/07 at 2:44pm
 
Hello RAT:
 
I can't help to think and scratch my head and ask myself the following question:  With almost 500 engineers on staff, why did it take dyson over 2 years after the DC11 cann (Feb 2004) was pulled off the US market to reintroduce the cann with the DC21 Stowaway (in Feb 2007)?  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  
 
Even with diversification into all things unrelated to vacuum cleaners, dyson could still have gotten a new cann to the US market in less time than 2 years.  It takes 2 humans (with one doing all the work) to have a baby in 9 months.  TWO YEARS for 500 engineers to come up with the DC21?
 
Carmine D.
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HARDSELL
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #33 - 04/11/07 at 7:12pm
 
Quote from Carmine_Difazio on 04/11/07 at 2:44pm:
Hello RAT:

I can't help to think and scratch my head and ask myself the following question:  With almost 500 engineers on staff, why did it take dyson over 2 years after the DC11 cann (Feb 2004) was pulled off the US market to reintroduce the cann with the DC21 Stowaway (in Feb 2007)?  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  

Even with diversification into all things unrelated to vacuum cleaners, dyson could still have gotten a new cann to the US market in less time than 2 years.  It takes 2 humans (with one doing all the work) to have a baby in 9 months.  TWO YEARS for 500 engineers to come up with the DC21?

Carmine D.

 
 
They could take the Hoover approach.  Introduce a new model every month that is no better than the previous models.  Oh,  Also leave all previous useless models in the line.
 
Of course Dyson could also end up in the ditch like Hoover.
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #34 - 04/11/07 at 7:50pm
 
Quote from old-timer on 04/09/07 at 5:35pm:
Hi Carmine,we both know why they only cater to the big dogs,the indy's wont support them for too long. They cant sell the smart indy's a bill of goods,with the box stores they sell them in tonage[at the best price].You know that there pricing structure is set so that only dyson is making money. And the dealers[indy's]get to put out the fires.

You can mark my words they will be gone and forgotten about in 3 years...........

O.T.

If you went back and read this forum from about 3 years ago, you would find two radically different sets of predictions. One vacuum pundit predicted that Dyson would never be more than a niche player,  and that cyclonic vacuums would never capture a significant or lasting share of the US market. He also predicted that Dyson would have to adopt major price reductions in order to sell many units, as well as predicting that they would be dropped by various resellers, including Best Buy, Walmart, and Sams. Conversely another industry pundit predicted that Dyson would quickly become the number one vacuum in the US, that they would be able to maintain high prices, and that other makers would come out with similar cyclonic vacuums as soon as the Dyson patents began to expire. One of the reasons I started coming back to this forum so regularly was to see which of the two sets of radically different forecasts, over time, would be the most accurate. So far as I can see, what actually has happened has been remarkably close to the latter prediction.
 
Perhaps in 3 years it will turn out that you are right, and that by then Dyson will be gone and forgotten. Not being a pundit, but just an observer, I have no prediction of my own. I will continue to drop by from time to time to see how this situation is developing.
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #35 - 04/12/07 at 7:44am
 
Hello CPro:
 
After 5 years, dyson is still a "niche" vacuum seller in the USA, although a very visible one at least for the time being.  It still has not broken the million unit sales in the USA for one year.  800,000 in 2004 being it's best sales year in the USA.  
 
While the Rhomba IRobot sold 500,000 in its first 6 months in the fall of 2004.  Dyson lovers demeaned the robot as a poor excuse for a vacuum (probably due in part to IRobot beating dyson to market with a robot cleaner).  Over one million IRobotic vacuums are sold each year (they don't count as vacuum sales).  The company went public in the spring of 2006.  (20 MILLION new vacuums are consistently sold each year).  
 
Cyclonic suction is a feature now of the least costly vacuums in the USA known as bagless.  
 
And the "indy's" (the vacuum experts) as well as the big box retailers (with the dyson line) are reluctant if not determined to avoid carrying the canister DC21 Stowaway, having been burnt by the DC11 cann.  
 
With the exception of a couple of outspoken "indy's" on the Forum, the rank and file in the vacuum industry (the experts) have negative views of the dyson vacuums.  Due in large part to its high price and underwhelming performance.  
 
One wool rug manufacturer and rug seller (in business for 20 years on the west coast) voids its warranty if a dyson is used.  Tiger21 posted the details several months ago.  
 
The Consumer Reports ratings of the dyson vacuums have fallen year after year losing ground to much less expensive brands.  
 
Which? rates dyson the worse in reliability for vacuums for 8 consecutive years.  
 
And dyson, in an effort to keep the product marketable, increased the warranty from 2 to 5 years on August 14, 2006.  
 
And a few details you forgot but I'll remind you:  The "dyson haters" criticized the use of dyson's air watts as the quintessential measure of performance.  And countered that the dyson brush roll was sub par for US industry standards.  Dyson reduced the air watts (you noted that yourself in the DC18) and "slightly" improved the brush roll.
 
The "dyson haters" broke the news that the DC07 used a panasonic motor that was the same as the motor used in panasonic's $60 bagged big box store uprights.  It was denied by the dyson lovers (one you like to quote often).  The "dyson haters" were called liars.  Turned out to be true.
 
The "dyson haters" criticized dyson's unsuited DC11 cann power head for US rugs in June 2004 and said with the high price tag $499 it would fail in the USA.  By October 2004 BEST BUY pulled it off the shelves and dyson discontinued it in Feb 2005.
 
The "dyson haters" in April 2005 said the Ball's ($599) price was much to high and a drop of $50 was imminent.  Everyone on the Forum laughed.  In October 2005 dyson dropped the price by $100 to $499.  
 
The "dyson haters" predicted in April 2005 that the HOOVER FUSION, a sourced cyclonic vacuum for $109 would preempt all Dyson DC07 All Carpet sales at Wal*Mart stores.  Dyson lovers laughed and said a lawsuit by dyson against HOOVER for patent infringement was following.  What happened?  By Jan 2006 after a little more than 6 months, the DC07 was dicontinued at Wal Mart stores.  And the success of the HOOVER FUSION spawned a HOOVER FUSION plus and a second generation Mach3 and 5 at Wal*Mart stores.  And NO LAWSUIT for patent right violation.
 
I could go on with more details and recollections (like Kenneth J's failed lawsuit against dyson for dyson's robbing of the Ball facilitator design that Kenneth J patented more than 5 years before the DC15 was launched) that you may have overlooked and/or forgotten but I think you get my point.  
 
BTW how's the Ionic Breeze doing at Sharper Image?  Any updates?  I think CR called this product exactly right much to your dismay and your support of it.  If I can synopsize the CR assessment:  Another high priced phoney product marketed to the public with falsehoods and fanfare at an exorbitant price.  
 
It's always a pleasure to trade opinions with you on vacuums and other related things.  I respect your responses.
 
Carmine D.
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« Last Edit: 04/12/07 at 11:55am by Carmine_Difazio »  
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JD
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #36 - 04/12/07 at 12:16pm
 
It quite laughable that people think 500 Dyson Engineers are working on one project - one machine!  Like I said they are working on many projects at once, ones that might never come to anything but something else comes out of it instead!  They work in teams most of the vacuums cleaners I believe take 2 years from inital idea/concept to being produced!  The team design different parts of the machine then bring it all together!  There is alot of thought and processes that go into designing a dyson product!  How many other companies go to that length!  
 
There must have been many reasons for the 2 years or so gap between the DC11 and the DC21 in the US.  Dyson has in th epassed launched 1 vacuum a year in the UK give or take the odd year.  Now the company is growing and product range expanding more models are coming at closer to each other!    
 
James Dyson wont just knock out a machine for the sake of it!  He has no share holders to please!  He just wants to design products that work better!  Yes sometimes there are problems along the way!  One being the brush roll in the US market!  At least he and his team are prepared to be differnet and try things out.
 
One thing is the brush rolls Dyson has on his DC15, DC17, DC18 and DC21 ranges now is very similuar to the brush rolls that are on the DC01, DC04, DC07, and DC14 in the UK that have no clutch system just belt drive!
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old-timer
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #37 - 04/12/07 at 12:37pm
 
Quote from cprohman on 04/11/07 at 7:50pm:
Quote from old-timer on 04/09/07 at 5:35pm:
Hi Carmine,we both know why they only cater to the big dogs,the indy's wont support them for too long. They cant sell the smart indy's a bill of goods,with the box stores they sell them in tonage[at the best price].You know that there pricing structure is set so that only dyson is making money. And the dealers[indy's]get to put out the fires.

You can mark my words they will be gone and forgotten about in 3 years...........

  O.T.

If you went back and read this forum from about 3 years ago, you would find two radically different sets of predictions. One vacuum pundit predicted that Dyson would never be more than a niche player,  and that cyclonic vacuums would never capture a significant or lasting share of the US market. He also predicted that Dyson would have to adopt major price reductions in order to sell many units, as well as predicting that they would be dropped by various resellers, including Best Buy, Walmart, and Sams. Conversely another industry pundit predicted that Dyson would quickly become the number one vacuum in the US, that they would be able to maintain high prices, and that other makers would come out with similar cyclonic vacuums as soon as the Dyson patents began to expire. One of the reasons I started coming back to this forum so regularly was to see which of the two sets of radically different forecasts, over time, would be the most accurate. So far as I can see, what actually has happened has been remarkably close to the latter prediction.

Perhaps in 3 years it will turn out that you are right, and that by then Dyson will be gone and forgotten. Not being a pundit, but just an observer, I have no prediction of my own. I will continue to drop by from time to time to see how this situation is developing.

Hi Carl,the reason for my thinking is the following,a machine that costs 500.00 plus,should clean and perform the same for 7 to 10 years before any major repairs,in household applications.
The problem that comes to roost is that when the customer gets tagged for 500.00 plus for a big box machine,and it's nothing but a hassle to get it repaired.It tends to turn the customer off from spending big for a cleaner again.We have this objection all the time,why should i spend a grand or better to get shabby service?
It's easier to sell someone a miele,electrolux,airway, the second time around.These companies live off repeat customers.
 
  O.T.
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cprohman
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #38 - 04/12/07 at 5:27pm
 
Quote from Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/07 at 7:44am:
.....
And a few details you forgot but I'll remind you: The "dyson haters" criticized the use of dyson's air watts as the quintessential measure of performance.
....
The "dyson haters" broke the news that the DC07 used a panasonic motor that was the same as the motor used in panasonic's $60 bagged big box store uprights. It was denied by the dyson lovers (one you like to quote often). The "dyson haters" were called liars. Turned out to be true.
...
I could go on with more details and recollections (like Kenneth J's failed lawsuit against dyson for dyson's robbing of the Ball facilitator design that Kenneth J patented more than 5 years before the DC15 was launched) that you may have overlooked and/or forgotten but I think you get my point.

BTW how's the Ionic Breeze doing at Sharper Image? Any updates? I think CR called this product exactly right much to your dismay and your support of it. If I can synopsize the CR assessment: Another high priced phoney product marketed to the public with falsehoods and fanfare at an exorbitant price.

I recognize that no one pundit is right all the time, and that at times the "Dyson hater" has been correct. That's what makes the market developments interesting and entertaining. I'll only respond to a few points:
1. As an engineer, I can assure you that I still believe that Air-watts is by far the best measurement of suction power, and far superior to either lift, cfm, or air speed. Air-watts in a measurement of energy, and the work-potential of the airflow, and not just a measurement of a transient state. The DC07 remains the upright Dyson with the most suction power, and it is comparable to most bagged vacs with clean bags. Later Dysons all seem to have sub-par airflow, and would not be a good choice for cleaning with tools. Dyson recognized this, and reduced the size of the plumbing. This makes the air speed higher, which makes it "seem" to have more suction, but really just hides the lack of Airwatts. I don't know the air-watts on the DC21, but I hope they are higher than the DC07 - a canister inherently needs a lot of suction power. Perhaps in time we will discover that cyclonic airflow is a less energy-efficient way of cleaning air than with bags; it certainly is true that it's a noisier way, and noise is a form of energy loss.
2. I thought that just the opposite was shown with regard to the motor in the DC07. My understanding is that while the motor in the DC07 is indeed a Panasonic, it is definitely not the one used in the $60 Panasonic uprights, and in fact rotates in the opposite direction. As I recall, it was also shown that Panasonic has an excellent reputation for quality, value motors, and that the consensus was that the Panasonic was a good choice.
3. In patent court, as you point out, Kenneth J lost. This means that it was shown that his invention was substantially different than the Dyson version, and that Dyson did not "rob" his invention, but invented something different.
4. Regarding the Ionic Breeze, you must be confusing me with someone else. I have long maintained that Air-ionizers without fans are not effective room cleaners, though they may be effective room deoderizors, especially if they emit a significant amount of ozone. Ozone is an extremely powerful oxidizing agent, and odor remover, but is considered dangerous to breath. There used to be a sister website to this one called "whatsthebest-aircleaner.com", on which some 5 years ago I warned that this type of cleaner was not a good choice, and I recommended HEPA filtration as the best solution for allergy sufferers. My home has multiple Honeywell HEPA air cleaners in it, and has had for years. I have one at the office as well. An ionizing air cleaner with a fan would be significantly more effective that one without a fan, in my opinion, but you would still have to carefully watch the amount of ozone emitted before I would consider it "safe".
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: Dyson Videos/Articles - for Dyson HATERS only
Reply #39 - 04/12/07 at 5:40pm
 
CPro:
 
Thanks for giving the dyson haters credit for being right.  You may want to get use to doing so too.  They will be right again.  
 
WRT the dyson's use of the Panasonic motor, the motor specs of both vacuums are identical.  The dyson panasonic motor is wired electrically to run in the opposite direction.  But the rest is same same.  
 
As I stated before, its hard for the little guy to get justice in the US courts especially when they are right.  
 
I may have you confused you with another on the Forum, but I recall you buying an Ionic breeze for your father and him being happy with it.  You were defending the product against the negative CR reviews, if I recall correctly.  As usual, I opposed your position.  
 
BTW, the US dyson DC18 has 200 air-watts and the DC21 has 220.  The DC07 has 300.
 
Carmine D.
 
 
 
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