Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

On housekeeping, maintenance and carpet care sites are dire warnings NOT to use a rotating brush vacuum because it will 'untwist' and 'fuzzy' the tips.

On the Shaw site, it uses the word "shag" in quotation marks, implying cable,shag, and frieze fall under the same maintenance requirements.

So, what would your top picks be, both vacuums and attachments, for vacuuming frieze,cable, and shag carpet? Some include berber in this suction only maintenance category, along with handmade rugs. So, what do you say should be used, considering some carpets have a 10yr. appearance retention warranty provided the care instructions are followed.  

Hello Trebor:

On rugs, I always use a revolving brush but with the caveat that a full size vacuum must also have a rug height adjustment.  ORECK does well w/o the rug height adjustment on all the carpets you reference except for high shag.  In large part due to the light weight of the brush nozzle head. 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

A frieze (pronounced (free-zay') is composed of yarns so tightly twisted they twist back upon themselves, thus preventing the tips of the fibers from being walked upon.

What would you use to vacuum frieze if the manufacturer's care instructions specifically prohibited the use of a revolving brush unit?

Trebor, are you asking about a machine to simply vacuum these types of carpet.  Or do you mean one that cleans as it vacuums.

Oreck can certainly be used as a vacuum.  As a cleaner?????????

To vacuum with: What vacuum and attachment would you use to straight suction vacuum with?

Do you think a p/n with a slow turning roller, widely spaced soft bristles would be OK?

Trebor wrote:
Hi Trebor,

Since you already have a Rainbow, if you don't have a it straight suction nozzle I'd suggest rettro-fitting.  Though I have been more or less forced to use them I do not much care for the "European" style nozzles with the velcro lint pickers because their brushes can only be used for bare flooring.  The old Eureka single brush strip nozzles are good and of course the FQ and Royal canister rug tool are positively great for suction delivery and surface litter pick up.  Since Rainbow's non-electric hose has an easily removable metal hose end you can fit on either Royal or FQ wands with no problem.  If you use a Eureka style nozzle also look for a cheap teloscopic wand as the regular metal and is a little too long, unless your'e very tall, to use with two straight wands.

Venson

Trebor wrote:

Hi Trebor:

I would have to research the Carpet and Rug Institute and read what it recommends for frieze.  Then experiment and determine what I like the best as the best vacuum cleaner.  My suspicion is that rug makers make a blanket disqualification of all revolving brush vacuums when there are some that would be ideally suited and work just fine.  I feel rugs in the home are made for revolving brushes and vice versa.  If I absolutely can't use a vacuum with a brush roll on a particular carpet, I would avoid having the carpet in my home.  [English yellow lab that sheds year round, year round desert sand and 3 grand daughters would do the frieze rug in long before the revolving brush in the vacuum does].

Carmine D.

http://www.beaulieu-usa.com/floorcarefiles/Maintenance/vacuumingtips.pdf

http://www.bestvacuumstore.com/select.htm

from the above website:

Shag Carpet Shag carpeting, an icon of the 1970’s, has been resurrected and today is frequently called frieze (pronounced frizz-ay), or California shag. Better carpet fibers and improved manufacturing techniques are creating a carpet with good looks and good wear capability. However, shag carpet demands the correct type of vacuum cleaner as you can literally destroy a vacuum, and even the carpet itself, with the wrong choice. One of the challenges of having a shag style carpet is that if you were to actually read the manufacturer’s warranty, you would find that the warranty will be voided if you use a vacuum cleaner with a spinning brushroll. Carpet fibers are really quite durable on the tip. However, with shag, the fibers lie down rather than stand up, and the brush will actually scrape fibers off of the yarn and eventually wear it out. A traditional vacuum cleaner with a brushroll should NOT be used on a shag carpet! One of the dirty little secrets of the situation is that while this is true, your carpet can’t really be cleaned without some sort of agitation. Some manufacturers make tools that appear like a rake and have good success with removing some items stuck in the carpets. But in the end, there is a reason that vacuums have brushes that spin—because they do the best job of agitating and grooming the carpets. Some of the varieties of shag MAY be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner with a brush roll, but it’s absolutely essential that there is a manual height adjustment and that it is used so that the brushroll touches the tips of the fibers and does not dig down into the side of the yarn. This is delicate issue, but if you are interested in exploring this option, please bring a piece of your carpet so that we can determine whether or not this option will work for you. I repeat that using a brush will invalidate the warranty on your shag or frieze carpets. For longer shag, a canister with a straight suction nozzle, or an upright vacuum where the brushroll can be turned off, is the right choice. In addition, the old-fashioned tool called a carpet rake is also recommended for grooming the carpet and fluffing the yarn strands before vacuuming. If you have frieze or shag carpeting, come see us today for the right vacuum cleaner and tools.

sorry, I accidentally posted before I was finished

http://www.shawfloors.com/cms/Articles.aspx?DN=1127,1112,1106,29,4,Documents

from the above website:

Select the best vacuum for your type of carpet

Shaw recommends using vacuums with a rotating brush or combination beater/brush bar that agitates the carpet pile and mechanically loosens soil for removal. Carpet with thick loop pile construction, particularly wool and wool-blend styles, may be sensitive to brushing or rubbing of the pile surface and may become fuzzy. In addition, shag (or cabled) styles with long pile yarns tend to wrap around the rotating brushes causing damage to the yarn.  For these products, Shaw recommends a suction-only vacuum or a vacuum with an adjustable brush lifted away from the carpet so it does not agitate the pile. Be sure to test a vacuum with a beater/brush bar in an inconspicuous location before regular use, to make sure it doesn't produce excessive fuzzing.

========================================================================================================================================================================

This thread was started not for myself, but for friends who are shopping for replacement carpet for their lower level.

Based on the sketchy, vague, and sometimes conflicting information I have found, I would say before purchasing ANY frieze, cable, or shag carpet, or hand made rug for that matter,

it would be adviseable to obtain (on manufacturer's letterhead) the specific recommendations and requirements for routine maintenance and cleaning, citing the specific style and model number, so there is no 'wiggle room" on the warrany down the road. Some 10 warranties are doubled, provided specific padding is installed. Corporations can be bought out in 20 yrs. Cover you fanny as well as your floor. It's a whole lotta cash we are talking about. Stainmaster has invented a new level of protection, that takes it's name from the lotus leaves because of their inherent soil repellant properties.

If they proceed with the frieze, I think I will check into the new Lindhaus "Bernoulli" nozzle featured in VDTA some months back. With an adaptor it should work on their Lux Guardian

Trebor

Hello Trebor:

Many vacuum brands, like ORECK, do not adjust for different carpet types [no manual rug height adjustment].  Per the ORECK HOME CARE CENTER staff, and in my own words:  Unless you have "really long shag" style of carpet [aka frieze] you don't need adjustments to your vacuum.  They are merely extra parts that will break in time.  Keep in mind, ORECK doesn't have a brush roll shut off.  Doesn't need it!

In particular, because of the light weight of the ORECK head nozzle and vacuum, the ORECK vacuum does not get weighted down in the rug.  Which necessitates the manual rug height adjustment for full size vacuums on medium to high pile carpets.  I suspect that the ORECK-s do well on cable and low to medium shag rugs.  Why?  ORECK has consistently been approved by the Carpet and Rug Institute [CRI] on all styles and types of carpets.  It was one of the first vacuum brands, if not the first, to receive the CRI approval over 30 years ago and still today with the revised CRI green label.  As the ORECK HOME CARE CENTER staff say the ORECK-s will work on all rugs save the "very long shag."   If ORECK doesn't, the buyer can return after 30 days of a free in home trial.  What more? 

I'm not pushing the ORECK on frieze and any other carpet styles to anyone who doesn't want/like ORECK.  But, even with the least expensive ORECK XL model's recent fall in the CR standings, the basic ORECK upright, with the smaller, less powerful motor, and less aggressive brush roll, rates a good in rug cleaning, excellent in barefloor cleaning, excellent in emissions and excellent in pet hair pick up.  And it's 10 pounds, a lightweight.  The weight of most stick vacuums on the market today. 

Carmine D.

Somehow, I still don't think I have made my point. We know what ORECK says, and we know what CRI says, however, neither of those entities supercedes  the MANUFACTURER's right to invalidate their own warranty for improper maintenance. Some frieze carpets have 10 year appearance retention warranties, and simultaneously, as a condition of the warranty, specifically prohibit the use of vacuum cleaners with a revolving brush roll. I know you, Carmine, would not have such a carpet, but I am asking this forum IF someone did, and asked for a prescribed vacuum cleaner,(s) and rug tool(s)  which one(s) would you suggest? Or what modifications would you suggest to a vacuum (any you suggest) to use on the frieze? I clean house for these people, and they have money to buy whatever they choose, but if she wants frieze, he will go along. A central vac has been out of bounds for consideration, that might change with the purchase of the frieze.

Trebor

Hi Trebor:

According to the maker's quote you cited in your post, there are TWO "qualifiers" to the blanket disqualification of a voided warranty with a revolving brush vacuum.  First, if the vacuum has a manual rug height adjustment.  Second, if the shag/frieze buyers bring in a sample of the carpet style [presumably with their own vacuum of choice] for a test.  Seemingly, the maker would grant a waiver to the warranty disclaimer if the vacuum is acceptable to it. 

Tho, I haven't researched, I would be interested to know if Shaw and other rug makers and marketers of frieze are CRI members.

Carmine D.

Trebor wrote:

Not entirely true, Trebor unless.................  I would take my ORECK upright in and exercise the option of the qualifier.  Why?  My dear Wife loves her ORECK!  If the rug maker agreed that the ORECK is acceptable and would warranty and my Wife liked the carpet, I would purchase.  When it comes to home furnishing decisions, my dear Wife has the final word ALWAYS!  Hence, Mohawk wool carpets w/o chemicals for stain resistancy to harm our epileptic yellow lab. 

Carmine D.

Aaaaarghhh! My question still remains unanswered!

Carmine, I am not asking what you would do IF. I am asking what vacuum(s) and rug tools(s) would you recommend to the person who has a frieze carpet and cannot use a rotating brush vacuum cleaner on it? I am thinking Pro-Team, because it is the highest suction/airflow canister I have found to date. The 1 1/2 " diameter hose could be fitted with a 1 1/4 adapter for any standard fit wands/tools. Is there a possibility of modifying a vacuum to better clean the carpet? I am thinking slower rotation, very soft widely spaced bristle tufts.

The manufacturers need to 'come clean' on this issue and use the correct terminology. A rotating brush is not a beater bar, and vice versa, but they are used interchangeably. In fact, I suspect a stainless steel beater bar with a bristle strip as I described would do an excellent job. The issue is this, the ends of the frieze are twisted back on themselves. The typical action of a rotating brush is to pull the twist out of the fibers, causing them to "bloom" or have what we call split ends in hair. My thought is that a soft bristle with widely spaced tufts would sweep up loose debris between the yarns of the carpet without pulling hard enough to untwist them, which is why the use of a rotating brush would be prohibited in the first place. A store trial of a vacuum is unlikely to be sufficient to test a vacuum for damage through repeated use.  But if the frieze were a given, and rotating brushes were prohibited, what would you choose to vacuum it with?

A store trial of a vacuum is unlikely to be sufficient to test a vacuum for damage through repeated use.  But if the frieze were a given, and rotating brushes were prohibited, what would you choose to vacuum it with?

Sorry, Trebor:  I don't have the answer you want to hear. 

You are posing a hypothetic question based on 2 presumptions that are at a minimum uncertain and more correctly inaccurate.  First, the maker qualifies the use of a revolving brush IF the vacuum has a rug height adjustment [so vacuums with rotating brushes are not prohibited].  This makes most big box store vacuum brands eligible for the frieze maker's warranty.  Second, the frieze rug maker gives the buyer/user an option to petition for a waiver to the warranty void, in advance, with a test. 

Presuming that the rug maker's first qualifier doesn't exist is incorrect.  Presuming that the second qualifier automatically leads to the rug maker's disapproval is an uncertainty.  In concert  [the marriage of an uncertainty with an inaccuracy] your presumptions take the maker's text out of context.  This makes your presumptions a pretext. 

Carmine D.

I have an answer for you. You might not like this , BUT there is not an attachment or vacuum cleaner that will clean this carpet with any effectiveness, its been the thorn in the side of the vacuum industry since it came into in existince, it might look COOL in the beginning, but after any usage of the carpet it will just become a dirt collector. The only power nozzle that even came close to semi cleaning this carpet was electroluxes P/N 4 from 76 thru 84, and at that they locked up within 3 months.I believe the carpet manufactures void the warranty on this type of carpet because they know their isnt a vacuum on the planet or attachment that will clean it, If you put this in your house plan on never getting it clean, unless you have it professionally shampooed every 3 weeks.........

I always thought that rugs wore out from the bottom up, due to the cutting edges on the sand and dirt in them,so how exactly is it suppose to be cleaned.I have concluded that it CANT...........

mole

Maybe it's not so much an issue of which type vacuum but more one of how to stave off problems before they happen.  If a carpet buyer is told up front that vacuuming with a rotary brush is not recommended but just must have that particular style of carpet, a practical solution to aid overall longevity and reduce wear potential is to count and measure of high traffic areas wherever the carpet is to be laid. The next move is to then have pieces cut to size and bound to fit in front of sofas, upholstered armchairs, etc., and at room entries.  Aesthetically, the look is not quite the same but it will aid in perserving the overall good looks of the carpet.  You can leave these extra pieces down for x-years and take them up if and when they show wear.   This is the same deal as when you buy upholstered furniture and use matching fabric coverlets to protect the arms from wear, body oil, etc.

Odlly enough, small carpets strategically placed in the same areas on wood flooring also helps to reduce wear woes.  I tried explaining this to a friend with three kids AND three dogs.  Apparently she didn't get the point and now major repair is in line for her wood flooring.

The manner of cleaning really depends a lot on what goes on in the household.  For those with homes with little traffic a straight suction vacuum may be just fine -- depending on the rug in question.  Cut pile, twist carpeting no matter how basically clean they may stay will need "livening up" and grooming to prevent matting with a vacuum that has a brushroll, However, I'd think you'd want to vacuum at least every other day if you're using a straight suction machine.

When I was a kid, though we didn't have carpet as fancy as Berber, et al, rug care was no problem.  The living room was seen as special.  My grandmother, a fastidious housekeeper, just let out a yell for us to get out of the front room.  But what's a house if those who live in can't enjoy all of it without worry or expectation of extra work by way of traffic and/or spills.   I'd say that any carpet that does not allow for its being vacuumed is probably only best for homes where there are no major challenges like pets, children and heavy traffic and the home owners or decorators should seek alternate choices more suited to their lifestyle.

Venson

We had a shag carpet in the 70's. It never wore out and was vacuumed with a hoover converible model 70. That model had normal and high. We used the normal setting. Never did hurt the carpet and the carpet never wore out. When it was replaced it was because my mom redid the whole living room. We put down a plush carpet, never held up near as well as the shag. I have thought about shag in my home and I would still use a brush roll on it. In my opinion straight suction is only good for area rugs and hard surfaces.

Thank You, Mole for answering my question so succinctly. Several weeks ago there was some intense discussion about Mohawk voiding the warranty of certain carpets if a Dyson was used to vacuum them. There is indeed a prohibition against using a Dyson vacuum on a particular fiber carpet. This info was NOT easy to track down. Who is to say there are not exceptions to the provisions for useage of a rotating brush on ceratin carpets, but they are buried in the fine print?

The whole issue is rather vague, and fraught with the possibilites for misinterpretation. Does one swipe with a prohibited vacuum void the warranty? What if someone accidentally forgets to raise the height agjustment? How bad does the damage to the carpet  have to be before it will be replaced by the manufacturer?

It is ultimately the manufacturer that holds the trump card, and it does no matter what the salesperson said in the store. That individual does not work for the manufacturer of the carpet, and the retailer will not involve itself in a warranty dispute.

Before the purchse of any of the types of carpet discussed in this thread, it would be most adviseable to get it in writing from the manufacturer the type of vacuum to be used on the chosen style of carpet.

The first vacuum cleaner manufacturer to devise a rotating brush approved by manufacturers and CRI for use on frieze and shag carpet likely have will have a winner.

SEBO already has a delicate brushroll for handmade rugs, I wonder how it would do? What about the OLD Royal brushrolls, the ones without the stiffeners? And old Hoover (any with an actual beater bar) with soft bristles, or, there was a vacuum (Nortech?) produdced by Hoover that had no brush at all, just two sets of beater bars.

I'd like to see the vac and carpet industries get together on this and specifically state which carpets need to be cleaned with which types of vacuums, with samples of the damaged carpet on hand in the store to show what happens when the guidelines to keep the warranty valid are ignored.

Thank you, Venson, and all who responded with helpful information.

One of the carpet fibers being produced now is a step beyond stainmaster, it actually keeps dirt from sticking to the fiber.

I remember on old Electrolux tool for shag carpet that had 5 elongated small suction 'mouths' that extended down into shag carpet. Maybe that type of tool will make a comeback

Trebor,

I hear you on the old Lux five finger shag tool.  I remember using it at my uncle's in the 70's on his shag and filling his vac bag.  The only other tool that might work, (haven't tried it though) is the Lux flip tool that flips over from barefloors to carpet.

In regards to carpet warranties:  A couple of years ago I purchased a commercial carpet extractor, a small five gallon unit with two, two stage motors producing 150 inches lift, 105 CFM and an external 2400 watt (6 x 400) heater as we were tired of rentals and poor contractors.  The carpet cleaning industry has been trying to solve the problem of detergent residue causing premature soiling.  Hence, rinse solutions and the "Green alternatives".    I have jumped on the Green band wagon and have had excellent results.  I called the manufacturer of the chemical, as I knew his products were CRI and Green Seal Approved.  Not only has he got these approvals, he has sent his chemicals out for further certification, especially to the carpet manufacturers.  From what I gather, CRI has a set of limited parameters.  Now in regards to warranties for carpets--FORGET IT!!

Sorry, hit the send button too soon

From what I was told in regards to warranties, by the time you followed each manufacturers check list, how often do you vacuum, how do you vac, what type of bristle brush do you use, how quickly do you attend to a stain, what did you use to clean the stain, what temperature of water did you use to clean, by the way, did you try club soda to remove that wine stain on your carpet.  What about the carpet cleaner that comes to clean your stain resistant carpeting and notices that it's extremely dirty and uses a ph of 12 instead of below 10??   Warranty void.  How many people will follow everything to a "T" inorder to claim warranty coverage, how many people even know what their requirements are.  At the end of the day, you come out with the short end of the stick. 

Vernon

Trebor wrote:

Hi,

Only when shag is noticably in vogue again.  Just about everyone had a shag tool at the time it seemed and none worked very well all round.  Kirby, FQ, Rainbow and just about all the store brands had a spin on the idea. The Lux tool was supposed to get at the stuff down at the bottom usually not too dense shag pile and you flipped it to clean away surface litter.  For me the big problem with shag carpet was keeping it looking good.  It felt no matter how much I vacuumed it lost that wonderful "fluffy" look it had been bought for and went back to looking mashed flat in a matter of hours.

My aunt had a sizeable piece of beautiful beige broadloom that had maybe one-half or three-quarter inch pile that she sent out for storage and cleaning around late spring every year and had brought back to the house every fall.  Most amazing thing was its fibers were made of good old cotton.  It took well to any kind of vacuuming straight or upright and thrived on a good cleaning every three or four days -- with no padding -- and she had it for many years.  It was great for us but, after me, she was the youngest thing in the house.  She was in her mid-fifties at the time.  Her mother and father, also living there were in their late 70s.  Not a lot of romping on the rug going on.

Venson

Trebor wrote:

If you are referring to the HOOVER Norca, and my memory serves me correctly, the Norca's agitator used brushes only [strips] with no beater bars, as all the traditional HOOVER-s of that era did use beater bars [unlike today's].

Carmine D.

Sorry Carmine,

I was going off the memory of an old post, thank you for setting me straight.

Trebor

CarmineD wrote:

Here is a Norca owned by a good friend of mine. You're right, Carmine - they had a 4-brush brush-roll. But you can't really call it an Agitator, since it lacks beater bars! They were sold through stores in towns which already had Hoover Dealerships and door-to-door sales, so Hoover wouldn't be competing with their own product. 'Norca', or course, is derived from NORth CANton.

You're correct on the agitator term, NORCA did not:  Beats, as it sweeps, as it cleans.  Tho, "agitator" is a HOOVER specific term for it's own brushroll, because of the bars.  I suspect HOOVER called the brush rolls in NORCA-s "agitators" too in order to distinguish them from the industry's term "brushroll."  Later, the vacuum industry accepted and used the term "agitator" in the vacuum vernacular to generically identify brushrolls, not just with beater bars, but in general.  As is currently the case. 

Note the similarity between the NORCA pictured and the traditional HOOVER model 305 with an agitator.  Also of note, no suction port on the side of the base of the NORCA to fit attachments.  The hose pictured, while a hose for a HOOVER upright, is not for the NORCA.  If I recall correctly, the H-305 had no attachments.  NORCA-s were less expensive than the traditional HOOVER uprights of the day.  Marketed for value conscious vacuum consumers on a more restrictive budget.  NORCA vacuums did not have a long life.  But the name NORCA was used by HOOVER to market replacement bags and belts for an assortment of vacuum brands.

Carmine D.

Anyone remember the EUREKA vibrabeater/groomer rug tool from the 50's and 60's.  Especially for frieze and shag, which were probably still a no show on the household scene.  Who would have thought that EUREKA was ahead of its time for the vacuum and rug industries?

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

I'm pretty sure Hoover only ever used the term 'Agitator' in conjunction with it's own-brand, beater-bar equipped models, since it references the concept of Positive Agitation. 'Only The Hoover has the Agitator'. You could save money and buy a NORCA, but for the most efficient cleaning, you'd have to spend a little more and get a Hoover! I believe Hoover used the term '4-brush groomer' to describe the Norca-type brush-roll. The 4-brush groomer was also more suitable for commercial applications, and Hoover offered it as an option on their commercial cleaners until the Conquest was introduced.

The hose seen in the picture belongs to the Hoover Model 150 standing next to it, which I cropped out of the picture. The Norca model shown does not have the side-port for tools - it uses a non-quick-fit converter which attaches underneath, as the Hoover 305 did. To fit it, the user had to switch the cleaner off, turn it over, and remove the fanplate and belt. The side-port was a deluxe feature which only the TOL models had.

As well as NORCA being a Hoover spares name, it was also the trade name for the fabric used to make the cloth dustbags from Model 700 onwards. However, RONAC - an anagram of NORCA! - was also used for this purpose.

Thanks for the additional details and clarifications.  Interesting stuff.  Curious if you know, since I can't remember.  Did the attachments on the H-305 and NORCA come with or sold as an extra?  As did the HOOVER side port tool models, not with the purchase, but extra.

Carmine D.

BTW, I'm guessing that the HOOVER upright pictured on the other side [left] of the NORCA is a HOOVER 26.   Correct?  Couldn't be a HOOVER 25, tho the colors are correct, since the H-25 had a fork bail. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I'm fairly confident that Hoover offered the dusting tools for their uprights as an extra-cost option. However, I think it wasn't so much that they were a true extra-cost option, but an option you could specify you didn't want, and thus get the cleaner at a slightly reduced price. Obviously, the salesman would always try and persuade the buyer that the cleaning tools were an essential aspect of the purchase! They used the word 'Ensemble' to describe the complete all-round cleaning package, so the buyer would feel their purchase was incomplete without a full set of dusting tools!

Coincidentally, there was also a Norca version of the Hoover Dustette at one point, to compliment the upright model.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

I have one.  It has two brush strips and three strands of plastic pieces that I am told are strung on something like piano wire.  Its form was modified a few times.  An adjustment dial for the brushes was added and a later modification was made for the Empress canister.

The Vibra-Beat nozzle never got good marks for cleaning ability from CR and it was awful loud.

Best,

Venson

PS -- Model2 thanks for the wonderful image of the Norca.

Model2 wrote:
Hi again Model2,

Did this machine still produce that famous Hoover buzz?

Venson

Carmine, you're correct: the cleaner to the left of the Norca is Model 26 (or 262 for us in the UK!).

Venson - it still makes the familiar Hoover 'rumble', but slightly softer, and less harsh-sounding.

I would think a straight suction vacuum such as a power pro, or an Electrolux with just the rug tool, not the powernozzle would do a fine job for you. 

I was told when I was shopping for a light weight last year by both Oreck and Riccar.  "These will do fine on your carepts if you don't have a shag or frieze, if you do the strands of the carpet will wrap around the brush and not only be extremely hard to push, but will burn your belts out very rapidly."  I have a plush and the Riccar and Kirby work very well on it.

Back in the 70's we had a sculpted plush which the Kirby (with brush roll on) did a very good job grooming and cleaning.  Kirby does have the option to turn off the brush, however, as well as they had a "Shag King" a really terrible, $#%*bersom, hard to use thing that attached to the front of the machine.  It did an ok job if you could get it to stay on the front of the vacuum.

Any straight suction with good air flow should do a good job for you.  You will more than likely have to rake the darn thing if you are like me and don't want foot prints to show.

http://www.articlealley.com/article_550591_47.html

FWIW: About ORECK and an excerpt about usage on shag carpets.  I believe the author is a former ORECK HOME CENTER manager of many years.  But no longer an ORECK employee. 

"None of the Oreck vacuums adjust for different carpet types, but unless you have the really long shag style of carpet you don’t need adjustments to your vacuum. They are merely extra parts that will break in time."

Just to reiterate, I'm not pushing the ORECK on anyone.  Just want to show that there are varying opinions and answers on the matter of proper cleaning/vacuuming of shag/frieze carpets depending on the sources.

Carmine D.

I have the answer! Should my friends/clients opt to go with frieze, I will finagle a 3' x5' sample from the salesperson, and place it as the walkoff mat at my friendly local vac shop for a month, then vacuum with a Kirby 'G' series with the gentle brush roll installed AND one of the old suction-relief vents that used to be on the older style Kirbys (I installed one on a Heritage, and it was great for shags and scatter rugs.) I think the ability to sweep the pile gently and thoroughly without sucking it deeply into the nozzle, since it will be unable to seal to the floor should provide maximum cleaning with minimal damage.

Carmine,

My original purpose in posing this question (and you are right, rose` DOES compliment canned worms nicely :) was regarding the use of rotating brush vacuums on fireze carpet which sometimes have manufacturers warranties which prohibit their use to keep the warranty valid. While the Oreck may indeed be safe to use on some frieze carpets, the reassurances of the Oreck employee, and even the person who sold the carpet are utterly worthless if the manufacturer decides the warranty has been voided due to the use of a vacuum cleaner which, in their view, caused the damage.

A true frieze is a carpet made up of yarns which are highly twisted, so twisted, in fact, that they twist back upon themselves like a piece of string. It is not just "trackless" carpet, although frieze does not readily show foorprints. The yarns of a frieze, if untwisted, become longer as the twist unwinds (increasing the likelihood they will wrap around a rotat, and the ends "bloom" and get fuzzy. A shag already has its ends exposed, and "blooming" is much less noticeble. It would take repeated uses over a period of time to determine if ANY vacuum will have a detrimental effect on frieze carpet. This type of carpet has been growing in popularity for a decade now, but with so much carpet installed just to facilitate a sale, (remember frieze is very popular) and families moving so frequently, I'm sure many potential warranty claims have gone unsubmitted. Who is going to ask what vacuum they should use on their new carpet, and is the warranty transferrable anyway?

I think that until a vac manufacturer(s) has a vacuum(s) tested by CRI as safe for use on the dubious frieze, and the manufacturers submit their samples for testing (which they surely would, wanting to be able to advertise that their carpet is safely cleanable with very specific vacuums/brush configurations) it will remain a murky issue with no real clarity in sight. I wonder how many warranty claims on frieze carpet have already been submitted, and what the disposition of those claims has been, and the criteria for vaildating or dismissing them. Of no real importance to anyone except the consumer trying to submit a claim on their carpet warranty. Class action lawsuit anyone?

I'm familiar with both the rug and vacuum industries in the USA since their infancies.  I've drawn conclusions about both.  One conclusion that has always stood the test of time is that vacuum professionals know more about the best vacuums to clean and groom different styles of rugs/carpets than rug/carpet companies know about the vacuums that are available. 

As you know, the ORECK also offers a two speed version which reduces the suction power of the ORECK for delicate and sensitive rugs like shag and frieze.  Again, I reiterate, I'm not pushing the ORECK.  My point is this.  Despite what a few rug makers say, there are many vacuum brands, upright and canister with P/N, with models sold in big box stores and independent vacuum stores, that work well on shag, berber and frieze carpets.  Many of these brands offer manual rug height adjustments, variable speed controls, and softer brush tufts that separately and in concert offer effective options for cleaning, grooming and ensuring the longevity of all the different rug styles and heights on today's market. 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and experience. I also agree that a vacuum professional has more knowledge of what is available than the carpet manufacturer. But ultimately, it is the manufacturer who holds the trump card in deciding whether or not the terms of the warranty have been voided. That is my point. If the carpet has any restrictions whatsoever about the type of vacuum used, it is incumbent upon the consumer to ensure the manufacturer of the carpet has indeed approved the machine(s) that will be used to clean the carpet. Appearance retention warranties/wear deated warranties refer solely to amount of fiber lost. It can be matted and crushed, but as long as it still has 90% of its original face weight of the fiber, it is considered to be performing as promised under the warranty. It will take more than one bottle of rose` before this can of worms is finished.

Trebor

Many years ago, a lovely unmarried NJ lady decided to add wall-to-wall carpeting to her large home.  Having large area rugs already, she was a long time buyer and user of HOOVER upright vacuums.  When she made the conversion to wall-to-wall rugs, she naturally continued using her HOOVER upright which she promptly had serviced to ensure its peak performance.

After a few months, she noticed that the carpets looked like they were wearing and worn.  It dismayed her.  She returned to her favorite vacuum store and asked that they have another look at her HOOVER upright.  The store owner did a once over, replacing the belt and bag, and advising her that the HOOVER is as good as new and in perfect working order.

A few more months passed, and the rugs looked worse.  She called her vacuum store man and asked if he would make a service call to her house.   At the time, many independent vacuum store owners still did house calls.  A mutually agreeable time was made and he came.  Upon looking at the carpeting, he agreed that it appeared 10 times its age.  Inspecting the HOOVER vacuum, he gave it the thumbs up and advised the lady to contact the rug manufacturer.  She did and on the prescribed time a representative from the carpet maker came.   He looked at the carpeting and agreed it was old beyond its age.  He asked next to see the vacuum.  The homemaker accommodated and brought out her HOOVER upright.  While seeing nothing wrong with the HOOVER vacuum, he asked her how often she vacuumed.  She replied that being alone she vacuumed her rugs a few times weekly and did so for many years.  Still sceptical, he asked her how often she had her HOOVER vacuum serviced.  She quickly showed him the service records for her HOOVER vacuum.  After a quick inspection of these records, he agreed the carpeting was defective and it was completely replaced at no charge.

Shortly after that incident, and probably others like it, the carpet maker [and others too] started gifting new HOOVER upright vacuums with the sale of wall-to-wall carpeting.  A practice that continued for many years and still to a lesser degree continues to this day by some rug makers and rug retailers.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I don't get it.  The carpet is defective so the carpet manufacturer decides to give away free Hoovers.  That would have been like Firestone giving free nitroge with those defective tires years ago. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

I'm not surprised that you don't get it even tho the facts are self-evident.  The carpet maker's representative was duly impressed by this NJ Lady and the facts and circumstances surrounding her story.  First, the lady's loyalty to her HOOVER vacuum.  Second, the lady's conscientiousness in vacuuming with her HOOVER weekly, even tho she lived alone.  Third, the lady had her HOOVER vacuum serviced religiously by the same vacuum professional, presumably an authorized HOOVER dealer.  Finally, he must have been impressed by the HOOVER vacuum's performance which was the definitive bases for his judgement that the carpeting was indeed defective.  He brought the story back with him to his boss.  The word spread.  Soon, the carpet maker [as well as other big US carpet makers] gifted HOOVER upright vacuums with its carpet sales.  If there is a connection or not, I can't say for sure.  But, there is a high degree of assurance that the lady's case had an impact on the actions and outcomes of the carpet maker[s]. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: Just as I suspected.  You have no facts.  Just an opinion.  Could it be that Hoover gave carpet manufacturers a sweetheart price on the vacuums just to flood the market with their and name.  Think of the publicity they gained.  Do you really believe that a manufacturer gives freebies with their products?
Those such as yourself fall for such BS marketing.  Seems as if the story is about the lady and not the brand.  OTH, All her efforts and the Hoover did not correct the defect. Do you really believe that a manufacturer gives freebies with their products.

As I understand the facts HARDSELL, not only did the major US carpet makers gift new HOOVER upright vacuums with their w-t-w carpet sales, but they also recommended and sold new HOOVER upright vacuums exclusively at retail prices to the vacuum buying public.  And did so for many years. 

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

What facts?  Did Hoover cut a deal with the carper industry?  You do not know.

Naturally you endorse a brand that was almost given to you then you start selling it.  MARKETING. 

Reminds me of those Orecks that are should sell for less than $100 if no freebies.

Thanks HS for the follow-up.  In the interest of brevity, I omitted several important details for the story of the NJ Lady.  During this time, there were many unscrupulous door-to-door vacuum salemen who spread false and vicious rumors about HOOVER upright vacuums and its patented beater bars.  Some of these salesmen made the rounds from one d-t-d vacuum brand to another.  With each vacuum brand they sold, telling customers, especially current HOOVER owners that the beater bars would wear out their rugs and carpets.  And also void their rug warranties with the carpet makers.  Some customers bought into the salesmen's lies and switched from HOOVER to the vacuum brand[s] they were selling.  Several such vacuum salesmen made their sales rounds to this NJ lady's home.  And, lo and behold perpetrated their lies showing her the proof positive of using a new HOOVER upright on her carpets.  She was too smart for them.  She had a vacuum cleaner store/owner who she had complete faith and trust in.  Me! 

The End.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Thank you! You affirmed my point. The person who was able to make the determination that the carpet was defective and authorize replacement was not the princess' brave, handsome, debonair and elegant vacuum professional (sorry, I'm getting my stories mixed up) but the authorized representative from the carpet manufacturer! In this case he made a reasonable, carefully considered decision, based on the facts in front of him. It could have been otherwise for any number of reasons, and the heroine of the story would have had to have challenged the manufacturer  in court, which might have proved even better publicity for Hoover had they won, so they may have foot the bill for the court cost. Knowing that, (and that their product really was defective) may have influenced the representaive's deceision. It did not take as long for court cases to be heard then. (Sorry Carmine, not insinuating you are old, but the judicial system has not changed for the better in the last fifty years.)

Have a great day, everyone!

Trebor

Trebor wrote:

Bitte Schone! 

Carmine D.

I don't know the motivator behind the act, but I do know the Mohawk carpet dealer in Macomb, IL used to give a Hoover vacuum with carpet purchase.  This was, however, back in 1980.  I moved from there the next year and I'm not even sure if they are still in business.  Back in the day you used to get something with purchase.  If you purchased furniture with end tables you got free Hager lamps.  Then again Hagar Pottery was based in Macomb and their outlet store was practically across the street.

In any case I don't know if they gave the Hoover because they were the best, or if they got the best price on them.  I would hardly see them giving a new Kirby on a purchase of $159 bedroom carpet.  Than again that was 30 years ago, I just had a co-worker do a complete recarpet of her home, total $10,000.  This is quite an investment and I understand why someone would worry about the warranty being honored.

Thank you Carmine!

I am so glad we reached an understanding of each other's points. I was getting tired of canned worms and rose'

Peace,
Trebor

HOOVER had a very good reason for inscribing on all its vacuums for many many years:

"HOOVER makes rugs last longer."

Carmine D.

And then, Hoover quit making the stainless steel beater bar as they began to cheapen their products. "Boss" Hoover will probably surface in China soon from spinning in his grave for so long. How awesome it would be to have the old Hoover company back, making their full line of products in  the USA employing American workers, and using their slogan, "Only the Hoover Cleaner Beats as it Sweeps as it Cleans."

Trebor

Trebor wrote:

That would be the 60's and HOOVER management made a conscious decision to kow tow to the big box retailers at the expense of the independent vacuum store owners/operators. 

Carmine D.

If HOOVER were a person we could say, the decisions we make affect the lives that we lead.  By kow towing to the bb stores, HOOVER , and others like it, set out on that slippery slope that leads us where it is today.  For better or worse, it is what it is.  Sadly others followed the same route and made the same mistakes rather than benefitting from HOOVER's past.  Some have not followed and kept true to their USA commitment.  Does the brand ORECK come to mind?

Carmine D.

Trebor wrote:

No. Boss would say I told you so.  Like looking at his creation, and deciding to start over.  Only Boss doesn't have Noah with an arc.

Carmine D. 

This is an interesting read. I wish everyone would take the time to research the proper maintenance for their flooring.

I am the claims manager for one of the largest flooring retailers in the country.(i prefer to stay anonymous) I come across a lot of forums while doing research for flooring complaints. i typically cruise through and don't post anything, however this particular subject is one i feel obligated to chime in on.

The Carpet and Rug Institute is an independent agency that compiles information and tests products. They get their information from industry professionals like myself, installers, manufacturers, and independent inspectors to compile guidelines together for consumer education, for example installation guidelines. Please remember that the information they provide are guidelines and not the gospel. Manufacturers provide samples to CRI for testing so they gan get the CRI label on their products. They use an independent lab to test the vacuums and rate them on soil removal, dust containment, and fiber protection. The fiber protection part for residential use means the vacuum will not affect they appearance very much for one year of normal vacuuming. they do not test them on every manufactured line of carpet. It is a general and broad test. one of the inherent problems with this is how and who determines what one year of normal vacuuming is?

For the most part, all the manufacturers warranties read the same as far as maintenance goes. Regular vacuuming and periodic professional cleaning is needed to maintian the carpet and keep the warranty intact. Typically they recommend everything be vacuumed weekly and high traffic lanes daily. As far as cleaning goes, proof of professional hot water extraction is required at a minumum of every 18-24 months depending on the manufacturer. Also, to file a performance claim, a receipt for cleaning within 30 days of filing the claim is required. I can't tell you the number of times i have had customer complaints from people who have never had their carpet cleaned or they had it cleaned 12 months ago. The one that most frustrating is the customer that has 4 people and 2 dogs in the house and after a year they haven't had their carpet cleaned and they complain. Then when you tell them to have their carpet cleaned they refuse because it's only been down for a year and they shouldn't have to have it cleaned already.

These are my maintenance recommendations:

vacuuming- vacuum all areas once a week. vacuum areas of nominal or high use the number of times a week equal to the number of people and pets in the household or daily. for example, two parents , a child, and a dog, vacuum everything once a week and traffic areas 4 times a week.

deep clensing- do not use shampooers or rental equipment. a shampooer with agitating brushes will destroy your carpet and rental equipment does not have enough suction to remove enough moisture and detergents. Have your carpets professionally hot water extracted by an IICRC certified cleaner every 6-18 months depending usage. in the vacuuming example above, i would recommend every 6 months. Some of the manufacturers do allow do it yourself equipment to be used under strict guidelines. You must be able to provide a receipt for the purchase of a specific model of a Bissle cleaning machine along with cleaning solution for the machine a minumum of every 12 months. I personally only like these machines for spot removal to rinse any cleaners out of the pile. if you are going to go this route do not use more cleaning agent than recommended by Bissel. Detergents are designed to attract dirt and any residue left behind will soil your carpet that much faster. This is typically where the complaint comes in from a carpet that was cleaned 6 months ago because in 6 months the carpet became dirtier than it did in the previous 18 months.

As far as the vacuums go, A CRI approved machine is a good way to go. As far as i know, shaw is the only one of the major manufacturers that has listed suction only for "shag" carpets however i do agree with them and i have seen a couple high end niche mills void warranties with the use of a dyson and maybe possibly an oreck(i am not 100% on this and this is how i came across this forum).These types of products have a very loose construction which allows the beater bar or rotating brushes to beat the heck out of the tufts unlike a dense plush that the tufts are packed in nice and tightly together. The most critcal thing about a vacuum on any carpet is being able to properly adjust the height of the brushes/beater bar. Suction only is the best way to go for frieze and shag carpet. for standard plush and loop style car the brush or bar should be set to a height where it barely touches the pile so it vibrates the pile no more than 6 inches away from the vacuum head. A carpet rake is a great tool to bring the pile up on frieze and shag styles before a suction only vacuum is used.

Lastly, matting and crushing are not covered by any warranty except on the extremely rare circumstance of a specific product. The texture retention warrantys refer to the fibers ability to maintain its shape and twist. matting and crushing is a result of the pile laying down from use and usually soil buitl up in the pile that has the fibers sticking together.

i hope this information is helpful.

Hi FloorGuru,

Thanks so much for the info but a lot of this we already know.  As a consumer I'd be glad to learn your suggestions or recommendations as to the best fit carpetwise for various household scenarios.

A single person or a couple without kids usually will find find that the sky's the limit in reard to choice as carpeting in such households generally suffers far less.  On the other hand, in a busy household with kids, pets, etc., there's a lot to deal with and maintenance routines may not always be the best despite even the best of intentions. Mom and pop both may be working and there's no room in the budget for outside help. What types of carpeting and carpet colors serve best there?

Thanks,

Venson

FloorGuru,

"a shampooer with agitating brushes will destroy your carpet"

Would you care to elaborate on your statement???  The recipe for carpet cleaning is: TACT  Time Agitation Chemical Temperature.  In the case of "restoration", (heavily soiled carpeting) some form of agitation is required, be it rotating brushes, or rotary extraction such as the rotovac or hydramster rx-20 to name a couple.  Could a power nozzle also be considered to have an agitating brush??  Any brush can be detrimental to a carpet depending on how stiff the brush is and how long you let it sit in one spot.  However, add a little bit of lubricant (water), the negatives can be greatly reduced. 

I have a training, reference and certification manual for cleaning professionals (carpet and rug care), agitation is discussed, and not frowned upon as you state. 

Your clarification on this would be greatly appreciated!

Vernon

I have a proposed solution for vacuuming "unvacuumable" carpet. If a Sebo powerhead were used with a gentle brushroll, and a 240 volt motor, that would slow the revolutions down by at least half. That should allow some slow, gentle agitation without pulling or tearing at the tufts. Thoughts?

Vernon,

I commend you on the research you have done and the knowledge you have acquired. You have taken this to a whole new level by bringing up that kind of equipment. To clarify, i was referring to home units and units that are rented from a grocery store. The technology has improved most of the home use products beyond the days of the old shampooers so you don't see them much anymore. I vividly remember as a kid using an electrolux model that my parents had bought. Knowing what i know now i never would have let them buy it. The type of products that i am referring to are the ones that you literally lathered the carpet with a shampoo and the machine had brushes that rotated parallel to the pile that just beat the heck out of it.

since you brought them up i will comment on them. please keep in mind, some of this is my opinion and no way a reflection of the quality of the equipment.

The rx-20 coupled along with their boxxer 427 system has received the gold seal from the carpet and rug institute. if you notice, the rx20 does not use brushes and it is a hot water extraction head, not a shampooer. Same goes for the rotovac except  you can change the heads to have brushes. this machine is more typically used in the commercial setting. IMHO, it would destroy any type of frieze or shag with the brushes on it. It may not due it in with one or two cleanings but over time you are reducing the life of the carpet.

The acronym that i know in the cleaning industry is CHAT. Chemical,Heat,Agitation,dwell Time. yes agitation is definitely a part of it, however some machines are better than others at accomplishing this. A lot of cleaners still use a carpet rake to agitate the pile before extraction.

My biggest concern is someone using a home remedy and destroying their carpet not the equipment a trained professional is using. At least if the cleaning technique used by a professional damages the carpet, you have the ability to make somebody accountable.

Two issues at play here.  First, presumably rug/carpet makers produce and sell products that are practical and American consumers want, need and like to buy.  Second, the consumers know and/or should learn the pitfalls of their likes and wants in these rug/carpet products.  Assuming both, then add the following:  Caveat emptor, buyer beware.  If you buy an industry product, regardless of what it is, which is different than the mainstream for products in that industry, then there is a risk involved.  Expect to have added consequences either money, time, effort and/or all the above.  Including difficulty to maintain and use unless you're willing to jump through hoops by the maker. 

Carmine D. 

IMO, the industry as a whole has not educated the consumers very well.

here are a few things everyone looking to buy carpet should know.

there are 3 synthetic fibers used to make carpet. Nylon, Olefin(polyporylene), and Polyester.

Nylon- Extremely durable, nearly impossible to abrasively wear the fiber, extremely resilient, technological advances in stain treatments have greatly improved nylon's stain resistance.

Olefin- Most commonly used in berbers and inexpensive commercial loops. Also used in high end woven patterned pieces from europe under the name of Eurolon. Good resistance to abrasive wear, weak in the resiliency category- it will matt and crush down, extremely naturally stain resistent, virtually impossible to stain the fiber or bleach the color out(it can be done but is difficult to do), low melting point, has an affinity for oil. This fiber is good in loop construction(berbers) for light to medium traffic areas and for areas such as basements where spills are going to hapen from the kids or partygoers.

Polyester- this is the green fiber. a good amount of this fiber is recycled plastics mainly from plastic beverage containers. very naturally stain resistant. resiliency is in between nylon and olefin, good maintenace will dramatically slow the matting and crushing however it is going to happen. the majority of products made from this fiber are of staple yarn construction. it will shed alot for the first 6-12 months and all staple products will shed lightly for the life of the product. The benefit from this fiber is it's natural stain resistance and it costs a lot less than nylon so you can get that thick soft plush on a much smaller budget.

If i had my way the only synthetic fiber that would be used to make carpet would be nylon. olefin and polyester are going to matt, crush and ugly out. if you have a family of 3, you can expect to see this within months and by the time you see it, it's too late to reverse.

The tighter the twist, the denser the pile, the better the carpet. the taller the pile the more it can move.

warranties-

wear warranty- the fiber will not abrasively wear out more than 10 % for the period of the warranty. i have never seena carpet made from a synthetic fiber abrasively wear unless it was severly abused. I have also never had a claim approved for true abrasive wear.

texture/appearance retention warranty- this warranty states the fiber will not lose it's texture as a result of the tufts losing their twist under normal foot traffic. This does not cover matting and crushing. matting and crushing is considered normal appearance change from use and is not caused by the tufts untwisting. The main cause for matting and crushing is soil in the pile. proper maintenance and the right fiber allow this condition to be prevented or corrected. The fibers are heat set to hold their shape and it is a rare circumstance that the process at the mill failed. one of the main reasons the mills recommend or require hot water extraction is the heat helps the pile bloom back up to it's original shape, especially nylons.

stain warranties-surprisingly, these are the best warranties on carpet. they do honor them. you have to jump through some hoops but if you have a legitimate claim, it will be taken care of.

for any performance claim, you have to provide your maintenance receipts. Depending on the fiber/carpet manufacturer, you have to have proof of maintenance at a MINIMUM of every 18-24 months and the last service has to be within 30 days of filing the claim. the consumer is the one using the product and is responsible for maintaining it.

lastly, remember that some of the warranties are prorated and some of them,not all, but some do not cover the replacement labor, they only cover the material.

Thank you much FloorGuru, that's the stuff people need to know.

Best,

Venson

I would say that since Carpet and Rug manufacturers have warrantys you have to abide by then by all means do just that by buying the appropriate equipment for the job... I will push Oreck since i own many of the products, but im sure other manufactures have the same Ideas. Oreck has 2 different full sized canisters that have power heads that the brush can be turned off. In additon to that they have an attachment called a Shag Rake for seperating fibers...there are also new attachments for the uprights that acctually moves the brush away from the carpet..I have one..cost me $10 ..or a chaeper solution would be to just remove the belt to clean those areas..its one screw access.

Tread184 wrote:
oreck has a shag rake...this connects to the vac head? do tell.