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mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Conversation with Simplicity
Original Message   Feb 21, 2005 3:59 pm
Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

This message was modified Mar 2, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
Replies: 45 - 54 of 156Next page of topicsPreviousNextNext page of topicsAllView as Outline
ChrisS


Appreciate what you have already been blessed with.


Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 2793

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #45   Feb 23, 2005 3:42 pm
I have been following this thread with fascination.

I cannot wait to hear the answer if there is any. 

I do have to agree with Marshalls thoughts a bit in that if it were me I could care less how they get to the HP rating as long as the engine is a strong performer, is reliable, and lasts a long time. 

I can understand with the competive markets as they are today producing one block size and getting as many engines out of it they can to save money.

I now sit back with my drink and popcorn and relax and see how this pans out. 

You all are like a big-dog with a bone here, I would not want to be the owner of that bone or be the one to have to take it away from you lol.....You all are not going to rest until someone comes clean lol.....

C

Honda 928TA, Ariens 924 STE, Toro single stage S-620, 95 Jeep Wrangler with a 6 foot Fisher Plow, many shovels, one 14 year old boy.  Craftsman 01 1000 LTX pimp Gold LT 20hp Briggs OHV V-twin.  Tough as it is ugly.
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #46   Feb 23, 2005 3:46 pm
Hey Chris, want some melted butter on that popcorn, I have a little extra? 
ChrisS


Appreciate what you have already been blessed with.


Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 2793

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #47   Feb 23, 2005 3:54 pm
LOL....

Can't have too much melted butter baby! lol.....

C

Honda 928TA, Ariens 924 STE, Toro single stage S-620, 95 Jeep Wrangler with a 6 foot Fisher Plow, many shovels, one 14 year old boy.  Craftsman 01 1000 LTX pimp Gold LT 20hp Briggs OHV V-twin.  Tough as it is ugly.
Ben07


The more you know about something, the more you find there is to know.

Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Points: 178

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #48   Feb 23, 2005 4:15 pm
jubol wrote:

Marshall,

 It's called a:"SCAM" !!  Or the old shell game!!

                                                       Fred 



You can say that again Jubol. 

I think the best way of keeping up with a shell game is to keep in mind that "the end justify's the means"

Why aren't they blowing the whistle on each other? couldn't they get in legal trouble ,,,are a couple of great questions.  

How can this all be possable, It depends on who is controlling it all.  Would be my answer to that 

Just my 2 cents

Ben07

Ariens 8524LE, Toro CCR2000, Jacobsen S-B S-blowers, Generac 10hp Gen-convt. to N.G., 5 L-boys(D's F's &Dura( 74,77,80,88,00), Antiq. 1960 AYP 20 in. mag w 3.5 Tech mower. Ryan/Ryobi gas Trim. AYP 205 gas blwr. Mac c-saw,Toro E-blwr, 2 Weed-E e. stg. trims. outboards, boats, util trail, 2 Jeeps 
MissSnowshoveler


If you don't have free speech, what do you have?

Location: NS
Joined: Feb 5, 2005
Points: 706

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #49   Feb 23, 2005 5:45 pm
This is what I know for sure so ar - I HAVE A HEADACHE!!!!!!!  Too many techs that aren't truly willing to tell you the whole story.

So at least the 9 - 12 hp have 18.6 cubic inches of displacement, these engines have the exact same model and type numbers on the Snapper and Simplicity models.  In case you have forgotten them - 20G414 0111E1.  So the guy I talked to said that they are rated at 9hp.  With the pounding on my head I'm going to try to get the rest of what he said right.

He said the hp is just a rating.  Since the emissions controls (yeah good old emmisions) came into effect it puts a hole new spin on things.  20 cubic inches used to mean 9hp in an L-head model, now with this new fangled OHV stuff that's all out the window.  Don't ask me how you're supposed to know what the actual hp is.

I've used the 9, 10, and 11's on the Snappers this winter in hard packed snow above the buckets.  They were very impressive that they didn't labor and had all the power anyone needed.  In fact, that's how we sold everyone of them, we got perspective customers to try them out in 2 1/2 feet of snow.  They were impressed, so they bought the machine that they wanted. 

I have no idea where this tale is going to end - hopefully with some rock solid answers.  But knowing that the engines are the exact same - ahhhhhhh.  What can I say????

Sherri

PS - Not sure how I got into this - I must have run out of popcorn - can someone share????

This message was modified Feb 23, 2005 by MissSnowshoveler


If you don't have free speech, what do you have?
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #50   Feb 23, 2005 5:53 pm
Hi Again!

I believe the disclaimers let them off the hook. The reality is the engine is only one component of these machines which do differ materially in other ways. It is not the honorable way to present your product but would we as consummers be better served if using four completely different engines would raise the price of  ope  a significant ammount. I for sure  wouldn't be happy with that .

Marc 

SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
mml4


Snow is good,
Deep snow is better!


Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Points: 544

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #51   Feb 23, 2005 6:01 pm
Richie-- Are you saying that you know the gaskets are different or are you using this as an example? The use of the different gasket would be reflected in the spec#. If the spec #s were different we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sherri-- Can't be rpm differences because the spec# for an engine in the Briggs line dictates the governor spring etc. As you know the spec#s are the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the techs any of us has spoken to has said the engines are different. To the contrary,the tech at Simplicity said the engines are the same 

Marc

This message was modified Feb 23, 2005 by mml4


SnapperV210P,Toro22177,TroyBilt42010Snowthrower,Craftsman Shredder,American Turbo Pressure Washer HondaGX200,Stihl011Saw,EchoPas260Trimmer Edger,EchoPB602Blower,EchoHCR150Hedge Clipper
MissSnowshoveler


If you don't have free speech, what do you have?

Location: NS
Joined: Feb 5, 2005
Points: 706

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #52   Feb 23, 2005 6:09 pm
mml4 wrote:
Richie-- Are you saying that you know the gaskets are different or are you usinng this as an example? The use of the different gasket would be reflected in the spec#. If the spec #s were different we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sherri-- Cant be rpm differences because the spec# for an engine in the Briggs line dictates the governor spring etc. As you know the spec3s are the same.

Marc


The Tecumseh l-heads used a different thickness of head gasket to make their hp.  The thinner it is the higher the hp.

I'm just grasping at straws.  I know there has to be some difference somewhere, looking at the IPL's for the Snapper machines, there are only a few parts different.  The gear boxes are the same - so they're not picking up hp there.  I'm still trying to fight my way through a group of men on the other end of the phone that think an air head just called them to find out some info.  Now that the Technicians got me PO'd I'm going to keep digging.

Sherri

If you don't have free speech, what do you have?
Marshall


As Long As There Are Tests, There Will Be Prayer In Public Schools. ;- )

Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Points: 7730

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #53   Feb 23, 2005 6:20 pm
Hey Marc, I'm sure your right.


This is interesting......all of the Tecumseh's are within dollars of each other.

On the Briggs engines, what am I misssing? The 9HP and the 11HP show drastically different RPM and Torque specs at the same RPM's. If it was governed speed that is the difference, once you got them to the same RPM, would they not be the same?


Tecumseh OHV Snow Engines


MODEL OH318SA/OHSK90
HORSEPOWER 9.0
BORE & STROKE 3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT 19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY 26 oz.
WEIGHT 60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE 3.625 in.
Code: ET-909302B
Price: $464.04


MODEL OH318SA/OHSK110
HORSEPOWER 11.0
BORE & STROKE 3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT 19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY 26 oz.
WEIGHT 60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE 5 & 6.5 in.
Code: ET-911306C
Price: $491.67



MODEL OH358SA/OHSK120
HORSEPOWER 12.0
BORE & STROKE 3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT 21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY 26 oz.
WEIGHT 60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE 5 & 6.5 in.
Code: ET-912301B
Price: $521.66



MODEL OH358SA/OHSK130
HORSEPOWER 13.0
BORE & STROKE 3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT 21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY 28 oz.
WEIGHT 60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE 5 & 6.5 in.
Code: ET-913300B
Price: $495.20




Briggs OHV Snow Engines



Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20A400 Series  9.0 h.p.





Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20F400 Series  11.0 h.p.








Edited to to re-adjust pictures, downsize.
This message was modified Feb 24, 2005 by Marshall
TomP


Once you go Mac you never go back!


Location: Central New Jersey
Joined: Aug 4, 2003
Points: 648

Re: Conversation with Simplicity
Reply #54   Feb 23, 2005 6:46 pm
Just to add some confusion to the issue.  I sent Briggs an email requesting the horsepower and torque curves for the Simp 1060.  I explained that the engine code (20G414) shows it to be 12 hp and questioned if this was true.  His response is as follows:

Tom,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Here is an FAQ that will allow you to down load our Engine Sales and Replacement catalog. On pages 27 and 28 you will find similar engine to what you have. The torque curves are almost identical.


Title: What is the direct replacement for my engine?
URL: http://faqs.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faqs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1487&p_created=950043480


If you have any further questions, feel free to update this e-mail.


Sincerely,
 Matt
Briggs & Stratton
eCustomer Support Representative

Page 28 is the 20D400 or 10 hp IntekSnow.
This message was modified Feb 23, 2005 by a moderator


Snow Team:

Simplicity 1060 DLXE - Toro Snow Commander / 3650 - Honda HS520
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