Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

Hi Marc,

     

When you nail down an answer on all this HP/engine size stuff, let me know. The only problem is, I am not sure where I'll be in 2020?

I do believe what he told you about the aluminum bore snow engines.

Thanks for the info! 

That's interesting. Do they call them Power Built, or just Intek?

And you thought trying to buy a lawnmower was hard.

Can you find a good place on the barrel to put a magnet? Like in the deepest part of the fin. Might feel some magnetisim or not?

Does the information,or lack of, make you feel better or worse? Besides the headache.

Do you want an aluminum bore, or cast iron?

Is the tech guy going to try to find out if the model number you gave him a cast iron or aluminum bore?

My advise, don't let them dazzle you with sales talk. Decide what you want, and get it. There is no reason they should not be able to find out if it is an aluminium bore or not.

Hi Guys,

Briggs called me back a second time and confirmed that the spec I saw on the 10hp engine on the 1060DLXE #20G414011E1 was indeed an aluminum bore engine. This confirms what the Simplicity Tech said about the bore.

 One of our guys on the forum,Dantheman, owns an11hp Simplicity 1170E for which he wrote a review . If the spec# on his machine is the same 20G414011E1 that would be confirmation of the engines all being the same. I am hoping he reads this post and can take a look.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed concerning the bore but I'm wondering if thats' not just the tyranny of tradition. The pros' on the site didn't seem to be anywhere near as concerned about cylinder construction as I am.Chris and Pete definitely come out for the Briggs. Lint if memory serves me correctly was kind of in the middle. The thing I remember most was the post by Tecumcman who said he hoped he could retire before the next round of carburetor specfications come due. I also notice that nobody complains or has issues with the Briggs carb. I would like to get a cast Iron sleeve but to do that you have to buy a Tecumseh. I pretty much have eliminated that and therefore Ariens or Toro.

The choices are between Honda and Simplicity. Honda is a great machine with a cast iron sleeve but it has some issues. No differential or wheel disconnect is available. The handlebars are not high enough for people over 5'10" and the steel is  50% of the thickness of  Ariens or Simplicity. Before you get your nose out of joint I measured it with a calipers. Great machine but not for $2000 dollars. 

Marshall-2020? Well maybe before then! I'm retired with a computer and a telephone that has unlimited long distance.Striped Bass season doesen't open till April and its' too windy to fly my RC Airplanes.Whats' a guy to do???

Marc

check out a snapper ...i beleive the 10 and 11 have the cast iron sleve .

but i will check the ones at work tommorow.now that i have the type numbers i can tell the diff.

later chris

Marc,

Great info!

Personally I think too much is made about OPE engines in general, whether it's snow, lawn, pressure washers, etc. I've learned to be most concerned with the build quality of the machines themselves, the way the decks are designed on mowers, etc. Maybe it would relate to how the augers, blades, impellers, etc. are made on snowblowers, I don't know?

I don't think there is a terrible engine made today between the major brands. Over all of the years I have been associated with this forum the one thing that stands out to me about engine performance and reliability is, maintenance and gas. I can count on one hand how many times I have read where someone lost an engine and not use all my fingers doing so. On the other hand, I have to use all of my fingers plus all of my toes to count the times I have heard people complaining about any certain engines and it turns out to be poor maintenance or bad fuel from neglect.

Point being, as long as the user has purchased an engine of appropriate size for the jobs it's used for and maintains the engine as well as the fuel, I'm willing to bet you would be hard pressed to actually document which brand is best, using breakdown alone as the criteria. I think it would take going many years down the road to get much of a difference in results. That said, there are other criteria that someone may find that separates the engines when choosing one.

I will say that with the heat of summer and dirty conditions of lawn mowing, I would want a cast iron liner though. I can honestly say that it would not be a deciding factor to me in a snowblower decision.

mml4 wrote:

Marc   Fantastic research there.  Sorry about the headache.  But you got hard copy and verbal proof that the machines are being badged falsly.  I am sure as you know that has been coming up in many threads, by a few people.  I t has been met with. Can't be happening as there is a specific regulated test., Mechanically impossable,  don't really care as long as it runs and does the job,  just buy more and don't worry about it. 

Fact is they are doing it and it is a highly fraudulent process.  It should not be allowed to be happening.  It is also the give them an inch and what is to stop them from going further. 

To answer some of the above, it can be done despite the test,  use a general disclaimer,  It definately is mechanically possable,

don't really care as long as it does the job,  I really don't mind that one because that is personal preference.  If you want to turn a blind eye and rely on reputation and other peoples experiences, that is fine as there are a lot of things keeping everyone busy and impossable to look at everything under a microscope,   but the problem is the other reputations, and experiences are going to find and have a problem with the situation sooner or later.  The just buy more and don't worry about it, is the real riot here, don't get me wrong it is a decent strategy if things are on the up and up.( but the fact is when you are noticing things to be falsly advertized  you can now try to buy more and not get it,  same as throwing your money in the garbach can.  What really puts the icing on the cake is in this case the truth is when you  buy less is when you  actually get more.  

So the next rebuttal will be ok it's happening, but here is an example of how it can benefits me.  It's just too bad the guy buying more is helping to pay for mine.

This is a definate riot...  now I got a headache as i'm, lmaorof

Ben07 

 

 

Ben07 wrote:

Hi Ben,

So, let me get this strait. You guys saying that you believe the 13HP has no more power than the 8HP?

"When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different."

Marshall,

I thought the Simplicity Representative over the phone that Marc spoke with made the above statement to him.  Actually the 13 HP was not included in the statement, my mistake.  But it did refer to the 9,10,11, and 12 HP models actually being the same engine just re-labeled

 Richie,

If Briggs/ Simplicity is using the same engine size, just relabeled, do you think Tecumseh is doing the same?

Tec's 8 to 11Hp all have same displacement, just as you mentioned on the Briggs.

I think, maybe  they are just changing cams and carbs to make the difference in engine HP.

                                                                        Fred  

Marshall wrote:

Actually Marshall I believe that the rep said in essence the 9 was the same as the 12 and all inbetween were 12's also.

Hi guys!

One of the things I have learned from my research into the engines is how to decode the spec #. I assume if the spec # is the same then the engine is the same. I went to the simplicity dealer this am and looked at the two large frame units he had on the floor. One was the 9.5hp 960E and the other was the 10hp 1060E. Both engines had the EXACT same spec #20G414011E1. I did not have the opportunity to see the 11hp or the 12hp as they were not in stock but for these two units the info from the Simplicity tech guy checks out.Same engine!!!

Marc

Hi there Marc,

That was great you were actually able to check the spec numbers.  That number is everything and says it all.  It's also pretty amazing and settles any doubt.   

P.S. "I did not have the opportunity to see the 11hp or the 12hp as they were not in stock"

Just goes to show you why they were out of stock.  The consumer is lead to believe they have to have a very high horse power snowblower and go for the one marked 11 or 12 HP.  I know Simplicity snowblowers are not cheap to buy.  I'd hate to see how much extra those people paid when they could have gotten basically the same thing for hundreds less.  The OPE industry has no shame

jubol wrote:

Jubol just a added thing here and to give you a Tec field test input, some of this all started for me in an extreme situation,  I was driving home and I knew my son was in the process of helping a neighbor who had been out of town for weeks.  he has a drive double wide that can hold anywhere between 16 and 20 full size cars.  In feet I can tell you I was close to 1/4 mile away, min 900 feet as I know the lot sizes, and how many houses away I was. It was asight, not only high, but a ton of volume, It stood out in between trees and highet than a lot of them.   This guy had like 14 inches and the bottom third was older and packed, like iced and heavy.  All I could see was this supposidly 8.5 hp Tec blowin the snow completely over his lower roof as it is a split level .. from where the SBwas was2 stories  garage level then living room level then another 10 feet of roof level  and 16 foot back from the gutter line and he was workin 15 to 20 feet back from the building.  I figured either something broke and it was runnin wide open or he was using someone elses monster machine, so I drove up .  The owner was on the porch with a worried look on his face, as the youngin was still on the learning curv and when he got on the side he hit up on the peak of the eves and the people inside thought he blew the roof off.  So standing beside him I did the Dad thing and said in a voice low enough so the owner couldn't hear me " What the h--- are you doing"  He just made a mistake, and said he is now under controll, and he was able to stay away from hiting the transformer out on the pole,  I turned and looked and saw it was 40 feet off the ground. And he had to try an avoid it or he would have hosed it down so to speak.There are snowblowers that will throw that high,  as you can see in the snowblowers in action thread.  But trust me not a natural 8hp. especially when it is in 4th gear against that much snow.  I know 10's and I know 8's and I know 5's in this type machine.  This thing was blowing at the strength of at least a 10 or 11 hp machine minimum.  This teen has run a lot of SB  and had I know it was going to be that wicked I woul have went up there with him as it is obvious these things can happen to someone learning a new machine.  He had used it before enough,  but  smaller amounts of snow.  The thing thru rather high then,  but nothing like it did with a full corse dinner.

I also did call the manufacturer when I first bought it, to ask why is this an 8.5 when all the other companies badge them as 8's etc.  They said it is a Tech engine built to their specs.  Didn't know what they were yada yada, closed door,  So I called Tec, They never heard of one of their engines being 8.5 They said call the Blower manufacturer back.

Ben07

Hello again-

We tend to look (myself included) at the engine being the most important issue in OPE. I believe Marshall was trying to make that point in a post yesterday. I am fast coming to the realization that the engine is not of primary concern to the OPE manufacturer.They are far more interested in the frame and those components than the engine.

The two units I looked at this morning had the same engine and were seperated in price by $200 on the msrp. For the difference in money you got:

1)drift cutters

2)Headlight

3)remote chute deflector

4)Power Boost

5)A completely different chasis from the deck up to the dash board-The 1060E has a welded assembly to support the handlebars as opposed to the tubular handle bars we are used to.

We could argue whether the difference is worth $200(I think it is) but the machines are definitely not the same.

Marc

Yes Marc That does cloud the issue.  However now it don't for you as you know what the engine actually is.  And that's what they should be letting us know in the first place.

Ben07

Ben07 wrote:

Ben,

Exactly correct.  Just like my Toro comes with an 8 HP Tecumseh, which is a HP rating designated by Toro and NOT by Tecumseh.  Also why it always seemed to come up as a 9 HP. Good point and I'm glad you mentioned it.

mml4 wrote:

Marc,

Indeed, it appears that I too have a 12HP Briggs Engine on my Simplicity. The Model is 20G414 and Type is 0111E1.

It sounds like people who bought the 9,10 and 11 HP Simplicitys with the Briggs Intek engine recieved a free upgrade!!!

Knowing this, it might be worthwhile for one to pay a couple of more bucks  for the Simplicity as compared to the Ariens being you're getting a top of the line 12HP engine instead if a 8,9,10 or 11 HP Tecumseh !!!

Before I bought, I also compared the weights of the Snowblowers and it seemed there was a decent jump in weight between the 10 and 11 that you did not see between the 11 and 12. Could it be slightly heavier components? 

My brochure from 2004 says  the 1170E (270) is 25lbs heavier than the 1060E (245). The 1280E (275) is only 5lbs heavier than the 1170E (270). 

Either way...I'm still very happy with my Simplicity ...used it Monday morning and worked great.

                                                                                           Dan

 Dan,

 I think Tecumseh is doing the same thing,

8-11 HP engines all same displacemrnt, same weight, ETC!!

                                                                  Fred   

Hi Dan !

You are the man!

Thats the confirmation of the info from the Simplicity Tech guy.

Thanks ,

Marc

Dan ,I think the difference in the weight of the machines is the difference in the auger width and larger auger bucket.

These are the weights listed in my 2004 Simplicity catalog#040252,

9560E-230lb

1060DLXE-240lb

1170E-255lb

1280EE-265lb

I wonder what accounts for the difference in weights listed in your catalog and mine. I'll bet our catalogs are from different years. I just noticed the weights are listed as approximate.

Marc

Marc,

I noticed this fall that Simplicity had lowered the weights on their snowblowers and your weights appear to be curent. 

My brochure is from August 2003 not 2004 as I had previously stated (sorry)

Perhaps the weights from 2003 are not accurate???

                                                                                                                    Dan

okay i had trouble beleiving this so i checked our in stock snapper snowblowers.

9 horse 10 horse ..exact same model and type numbers ...and now you say the 11 and 12 are the sameas the 9 and 10.

so are they all 12 horsepower.

the chassis on our snappers are all the same and the gear boxes are the same ,so the only difference from the 9 to the 11 is the width of the bucket.wow ,no wonder they work well.they certainly dont lack for power.

this justs keeps getting better all the time.

and briggs and tecumseh school is getting closer all the time,and i have some questions for the instructors-technical help.

later chris

jubol wrote:

Jubol I hope what you are chicking into is close to correct, as this was my description of my 8.5 before you made that post

"I know 10's and I know 8's and I know 5's in this type machine.  This thing was blowing at the strength of at least a 10 or 11 hp machine minimum." 

The reason being, I think I was very accurate with my observation,  but I am sure there are a few who if they don't follow it close will yea  "Yeah Right" 

Thxfor your help as I am unable to do research at this time

Ben07

P s If I find out it is an 11 I will softly freak.  I won't be too loud cause my kid will find out and steal it for a go-cart

snowshoveler wrote:
Two years ago I wanted to purchase a Simplicity.  The price of $1,400.00 I recall is what it cost.  I felt it was just too much money for an 8 or 9 HP machine.  Assuming this was going on back then, and given the fact these OPE manufacurers have been messing around for so long, and I have no reason to think otherwise, it answers the question why the price was so high.  This situation puts you on the other side of the street; you think you are getting say, a 9HP engine, but are really getting perhaps a 12 HP.  Bottom line is that nothing is free and one way or another you are paying a great deal of money for it.  Price a 12 HP Briggs engine with previsions for a lighting alternator and 110 volt electric start and you'll see what I mean.   It was still tough for me to walk away from the machine.  Once you grab the handle bars of a Simplicity, it just screams "tank"

I am out of my league here but offer this as a potential explanation.

The Snow Commander R-tek is rated at 7 hp while the 3650 is rated at 6.5 hp.  The difference according to Toro is due to the piston (two additional ports) and cylinder.

My Simplicity 1060 has the 20G414 engine.  Looking at the parts catalog there appears to be 4 piston sizes (standard, .01" oversize, .02" oversize and .03" oversize.)  Could this explain the difference in horsepower generated using the same engine displacement?

Hi Guys!

Tom-The question is do engines with the EXACT same spec # have different pistons? All of the Simplicity units between 9.5hp and 11hp we have verified as having the exact same spec#. The only one we have not eyeballed by one of our group is the 12 hp model.

At this point I am willing to take the word of the Simplicity Tech I spoke to over the phone who said they are all the same.

Chris- Is the type designation in the Snapper a "G" (aluminum bore) or a"D" (cast iron bore)?

I know I have tormented you guys with this stuff over the last few weeks and I promise I will not go off on another investigative crusade.But it became obvious to me today after looking at the Snapper web site that the Snappers are built out of the same parts bin as the Simplicity. The difference is the Snappers use the round stock handles throughout their large frame line as compared to Simplicitys' use of their signature "angle" bars on the 10, 11,12 and 13 hp models. Snapper doesen't offer the remote chute deflector and badges the engines with less hp for each auger width ex. 24" Snapper is 9hp,24"Simplicity is either 9.5 or 10 hp depending on which one of their 24" models you choose. We already know that the 9.5 and the 10 carry the same spec#. 28"Snapper is 10hp.,Simplicity 28" is 11hp.32" Snapper uses 11hp while the 32" Simplicity uses a 12hp.  The Snapper also uses the  12hp. on the 38" model where as Simplicity uses the 13hp on their 38". This is curious as it appears the 12hp is the same as the 9,10 and 11 while the 13hp is a larger displacement. The Snappers are at a  lower price point than the Simplicity and therefore if what we have found out is true are a terrific value.

Anxiously awaiting Chris'report on the Snapper type#

Marc

Tom,

Anyone here that has been ordering parts for their engines through a dealer will tell you the first thing you are asked is, "what's the spec number."  If the spec numbers are the same on the engines, they are the same inside and out.  Whatever the HP designation is, the parts, internal or otherwise, would be ordered according to that number. 

As a sales rep for a distributor who sells Simplicity and Snapper I have forwarded this thread to our technical guy with the suggestion he contact Simplicity for an explanation. Will keep you posted.

Pat

I'm hoping that if I can get enough dealer support that we can find out the whole deal.

Sherri

TomP wrote:

Hi Tom.  I am goin to try an answer your question from an automotive perspective.  Lot of people think if they  know the auto engine They can cover almost everything with small engine things.. That not true, cause small engine repair has a lot of area's in it's own .  where they use a  principal sometimes to a real higher and complicated level.  An example is Piston rings.  They use 3, and 2 and 1. for diff reasons.  So with that disclaimer I will try a general answer,  as the experts may be busy on you.

First lets seperate the 2 cycle from the 4 cycle engine, not good to combine them sometimes when reffering to even something similar, as the differences could come into play and confuse things.

The 2 cycle your toro's  when they say two additional ports, they don't mean in the piston, the ports are in the cylinder(probably), so two extra ports could be explained like having two valves in a auto engine or a 4 valves per cylinder engine,   except a two cycle has no valves it uses ports.  Why the piston would be different, I am not sure,  maybe it may have some recesses or cut's in the top of it to better allow for a 4 port application,  or maybe it is domed to creat higher compression.  not sure that maybe the only difference they may be indicating to you is just the ports in or thru the cylinder wall. so to answer why the piston is different there I don't know,  unless It is actually  just larger than the 6.5

The simplicity engine you are referring to I am assuming is like a 10 HP 4 cycle engine.

The standard and two level oversize piston would be probably when someone has to rebore a cylinder due to wear damage etc 

Another reason they carry them is for their own use at the factory.  WHEN THEY MACHINE THESE PISTONS THEY TURN THEM ON A LATHE,  SAY THE OPERATOR IS RUNNING 200 OF THEM,  THEY MAY HAVE HIM TURN 50 OF THEM DOWN LESS (sry for the caps)  When they machine these pistons they really don't mind too much leaving some them oversize, cause in a pinch they can grab them and recut them if they need them due to a sudden production line shortage. and also sell them for redicuously prices to people doing repairs.   And the other reason, most important 

is if they screw up their cylinders, get out of aligh due to the cylinder getting crimped when being pressed into the cylinder, or bored too much on an angle or a concentricity problem,  they may  remachine the cylinder walls  to save/salvage them, then they may  use the oversize piston ,  Yes I know then your displacement will be higher etc.  that is why you measure your piston and check for a stamping on parts,  etc etc .. They can and do sometimes do it.  And they can definately sell these engines commercially to say like your county government  ..  They buy  50 mowers to cut the parks,  they state in their big they will use some factory rework machines, however will give them all a little longer commercial warranty to make up for it.  No problem they are probably just as good as the one who didn't have the rework

 Miss SS,

         Would be nice to know on the Tec L heads, as they might be doing the same as Briggs.one engine, same specs, but different Hp'S

                                                                                         Fred 

Guys:

Appreciate all the info and better understand the situation. 

I still doubt I have received a 12 hp engine for the price of a 10 but if it is true that is great.  Hopefully we will get some feedback from the manufacturers. 

As a dealer, I would be hot if I were to find out that my dealings with my manufacturers I am buying equipment from to sell to my customers are in fact being sold to me with false information.

I can't help but think that there is something being missed in all of this. I am not saying that what you guys have found is not correct. But, for this to be true, think of what would would also have to be true.......

1. No one has ever caught them before.
2. Dealers have no idea that this is the case.
3. Tech's have no idea this is the case.
4. Resellers of engines would all have to go along with this.
5. Engine manufacturers would be risking fraud out the wazoo.


and more, but you get my drift.

As for the first point, this is the only one that I can possibly see happening, they have to get caught sometime, maybe now is it?

Point #2, we have dealers on this forum, they don't know this to be the case. If it turns out this is true, I am completely amazed the dealers don't know about it.

Point #3, same thing. Tech's order these parts daily, you would think they would know by the engine numbers that they are ordering the exact same parts all of the time for different engines. It would be readily apparent, one would think.

Point #4, all of the resellers like TEW, Jacks, etc. would have to be in this too. They order these engines and sell them by the hundred and thousands. You think they would go along with selling fraudulent practices, all of them?

Point #5, self explanatory.

Some may say, well this is no problem as long as the buyer receives more power than he is buying. The problem is, I may have wanted that better, bigger frame design, mower deck, auger width, etc. but, I declined to buy it because I just didn't think I needed to be buying a 12HP engine for my needs. And, it's possible that I as a consumer figured the majority of the extra cost for that blower or mower, was the bigger engine.

Maybe all of this is true, it very well could be? But, there would need to be a ton of fools involved and or people that don't care about these business practices.

Oh yea, do all of the engine manufacturers do this? You know they constantly buy each others engines and tear them down to keep abreast of what the competition is doing. So, it would almost have to be a conspiracy between them all because you know for fact one of them would be blowing the legal and ethical whistle on the other.

Do I see this wrong? Maybe I am completely off base?

Hi Guys-

I just lost the longest post I ever typed !

I regret starting this whole thing because words like fraud turn everything nasty. We may not like it but all of the literature the manufacturers produce are filled with disclaimers written by lawyers to make sure the corporations are not guilty of fraud.

The internet is relatively new and a wonderful thing but everybody is learning as we go along. If we take the info. we learn from each other and start fingerpointing and accusing I fear we will no longer be able to pick up a phone, call a manufacturer and get a straight answer. No one said they were passing a 9hp engine off as a 12hp.! Rather the 12 was being used as a 9. It stands to reason that a 12 can produce 9hp so where is the fraud when the disclaimers are taken into account?

All of the different models using the same spec# engines that I researched  had SIGNIFICANT differences that imho justify the difference in price. In the beginning when it became apparent to me what the deal was I became a little angry. But the truth is I felt foolish for not having figured this out before."Let the buyer beware" is old school. With the net and forums like ours" let the buyer be infomed".

On a happier note I picked up the 1060DXLE for my son this morning. The plastic bag that came with it had a few spare shear pins. Simplicity is using shear pins that are retained by cotter pins(old fashioned huh) as opposed to the shear bolts we have become accustomed to. I assume this was their answer to over torquing the shear bolts.

List price-$1749 

Street price$1549

End of season would you please leave me alone and get out of my store price-

$1399,12 months same as cash

Marc

"I regret starting this whole thing because words like fraud turn everything nasty. We may not like it but all of the literature the manufacturers produce are filled with disclaimers written by lawyers to make sure the corporations are not guilty of fraud."

Yea but that's what some people on the forum are claiming in so many words. I could have sworn I read that the model numbers are exactly the same and so is all that goes into them thus, making a 12HP the same as an 8HP and an 8HP throwing like a 12HP.

If you pay 500 bucks for a 8HP engine labled 8HP, that is really a 12HP and, I pay 800 bucks for a 12HP engine that is indeed a 12HP engine, one of us is screwed and it ain't you. What's the term for that practice?

Marshall,

 It's called a:"SCAM" !!  Or the old shell game!!

                                                       Fred 

LOL, no doubt Fred.

But,  I go back to post before last, is this really happening? If slapped on a dyno, are they truly producing the same HP or, are there indeed difference that make these 10 & 12 HP engines have more HP?

  Marshall,

        That is the big question!!  

                                                  Fred  

I'm thinking that their excuse is going to come back to RPM.  But I'm hesitant to post what my many phones calls have led me to find out.

Model # 20G414 0111E1 appears on both the 9 and 10hp Snapper snowblowers we have in stock.  According to the guy I talked to at one of our distributors that's roughly 20 cubic inches or rated a 9hp

SO NOW I'M RUNNING WITH MY HEAD THROUGHLY COVERED.    I'm dazed and confused and now know that the difference in an L-head Tecumseh is the head gasket thickness.  Will it never end??????

A very confused and baffled

Sherri

MissSnowshoveler wrote:
Yep, there are two different thickness gaskets for them.  The thicker gasket gets placed on one engine and called an 9 HP, the thinner gasket gets placed on another engine giving you more compression and there you go, a 10 HP 

OK, if it turns out to be that there are very subtle differences that end up making more HP, I could care less, HP is HP regardless how you get it. If it turns out that an 8HP engine is a 12HP engine, detuned if you will, I can live with that. I can understand that a manufacturer would want to produce one block and make minor differences in other parts to make engine rating different, that's nothing but creative manufacturing and marketing, practiced by all companies. If it is said to be the same engine with no differences at all and they all produce the exact same HP and the only difference being labels, that's a completely different ballgame.

I have been following this thread with fascination.

I cannot wait to hear the answer if there is any. 

I do have to agree with Marshalls thoughts a bit in that if it were me I could care less how they get to the HP rating as long as the engine is a strong performer, is reliable, and lasts a long time. 

I can understand with the competive markets as they are today producing one block size and getting as many engines out of it they can to save money.

I now sit back with my drink and popcorn and relax and see how this pans out. 

You all are like a big-dog with a bone here, I would not want to be the owner of that bone or be the one to have to take it away from you lol.....You all are not going to rest until someone comes clean lol.....

C

Hey Chris, want some melted butter on that popcorn, I have a little extra? 

LOL....

Can't have too much melted butter baby! lol.....

C

jubol wrote:

You can say that again Jubol. 

I think the best way of keeping up with a shell game is to keep in mind that "the end justify's the means"

Why aren't they blowing the whistle on each other? couldn't they get in legal trouble ,,,are a couple of great questions.  

How can this all be possable, It depends on who is controlling it all.  Would be my answer to that 

Just my 2 cents

Ben07

This is what I know for sure so ar - I HAVE A HEADACHE!!!!!!!  Too many techs that aren't truly willing to tell you the whole story.

So at least the 9 - 12 hp have 18.6 cubic inches of displacement, these engines have the exact same model and type numbers on the Snapper and Simplicity models.  In case you have forgotten them - 20G414 0111E1.  So the guy I talked to said that they are rated at 9hp.  With the pounding on my head I'm going to try to get the rest of what he said right.

He said the hp is just a rating.  Since the emissions controls (yeah good old emmisions) came into effect it puts a hole new spin on things.  20 cubic inches used to mean 9hp in an L-head model, now with this new fangled OHV stuff that's all out the window.  Don't ask me how you're supposed to know what the actual hp is.

I've used the 9, 10, and 11's on the Snappers this winter in hard packed snow above the buckets.  They were very impressive that they didn't labor and had all the power anyone needed.  In fact, that's how we sold everyone of them, we got perspective customers to try them out in 2 1/2 feet of snow.  They were impressed, so they bought the machine that they wanted. 

I have no idea where this tale is going to end - hopefully with some rock solid answers.  But knowing that the engines are the exact same - ahhhhhhh.  What can I say????

Sherri

PS - Not sure how I got into this - I must have run out of popcorn - can someone share????

Hi Again!

I believe the disclaimers let them off the hook. The reality is the engine is only one component of these machines which do differ materially in other ways. It is not the honorable way to present your product but would we as consummers be better served if using four completely different engines would raise the price of  ope  a significant ammount. I for sure  wouldn't be happy with that .

Marc 

Richie-- Are you saying that you know the gaskets are different or are you using this as an example? The use of the different gasket would be reflected in the spec#. If the spec #s were different we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sherri-- Can't be rpm differences because the spec# for an engine in the Briggs line dictates the governor spring etc. As you know the spec#s are the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the techs any of us has spoken to has said the engines are different. To the contrary,the tech at Simplicity said the engines are the same 

Marc

mml4 wrote:

The Tecumseh l-heads used a different thickness of head gasket to make their hp.  The thinner it is the higher the hp.

I'm just grasping at straws.  I know there has to be some difference somewhere, looking at the IPL's for the Snapper machines, there are only a few parts different.  The gear boxes are the same - so they're not picking up hp there.  I'm still trying to fight my way through a group of men on the other end of the phone that think an air head just called them to find out some info.  Now that the Technicians got me PO'd I'm going to keep digging.

Sherri

Hey Marc, I'm sure your right.


This is interesting......all of the Tecumseh's are within dollars of each other.

On the Briggs engines, what am I misssing? The 9HP and the 11HP show drastically different RPM and Torque specs at the same RPM's. If it was governed speed that is the difference, once you got them to the same RPM, would they not be the same?


Tecumseh OHV Snow Engines

MODEL	OH318SA/OHSK90
HORSEPOWER	9.0
BORE & STROKE	3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	3.625 in.

Code: ET-909302B
Price: $464.04

MODEL	OH318SA/OHSK110
HORSEPOWER	11.0
BORE & STROKE	3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-911306C
Price: $491.67

MODEL	OH358SA/OHSK120
HORSEPOWER	12.0
BORE & STROKE	3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-912301B
Price: $521.66

MODEL	OH358SA/OHSK130
HORSEPOWER	13.0
BORE & STROKE	3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	28 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-913300B
Price: $495.20




Briggs OHV Snow Engines

Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20A400 Series  9.0 h.p.

Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20F400 Series  11.0 h.p.

Edited to to re-adjust pictures, downsize.

Just to add some confusion to the issue.  I sent Briggs an email requesting the horsepower and torque curves for the Simp 1060.  I explained that the engine code (20G414) shows it to be 12 hp and questioned if this was true.  His response is as follows:

Tom,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Here is an FAQ that will allow you to down load our Engine Sales and Replacement catalog. On pages 27 and 28 you will find similar engine to what you have. The torque curves are almost identical.


Title: What is the direct replacement for my engine?
URL: http://faqs.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faqs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1487&p_created=950043480


If you have any further questions, feel free to update this e-mail.


Sincerely,
 Matt
Briggs & Stratton
eCustomer Support Representative

Page 28 is the 20D400 or 10 hp IntekSnow.

im thinking briggs may have got cought with their hand in the cookie jar.

can you say busted.

im starting to smell a rat here.

i dont know  how a 9 horsepower can be the axact same one as a12 horsepower.

better make more popcorn...

and i have been using the butter on the snowdance pole.

later chris   

Hi again! Left for dinner-

Marshall- Notice the description given as a series. If you don't have the exact spec# you can't make a comparrison in the Briggs line because you are then comparing apples to oranges. This whole discussion about Simplicity and Snapper has at it's core the fact that the engines are all the same exact spec #. If you go carefully through the Briggs Replacement Engine Catalog you will find that they make the same hp engines in different displacements. Thats why I keep comming back to the spec #. No one has yet disputed that the same spec# in a Briggs is not the same engine regardless of hp stickers. The discussion of Tecumseh I feel is off topic as is the comparrison of L-Head to OHV. I say this respectfully to the other posters who have mentioned those other issues. In short I think we got em' by the spec#'s. But I repeat that in terms of purchasing one model  ope over another there are material differences that account for price differential.   

Tom- the 20D4140017 or 20D4140019 would not be an exact replacement for your 1060DLXE because those typeD engines have a cast iron bore and your type G engine has an aluminum bore.By the way the 0017 and 0019 differ in shaft size only.

Of intrest to all of us re: Tom's inquiry with Briggs is what would happen if he asked for a replacement for a 12hp engine Simplicity 1280E. If he used the Spec# on the 1280E's engine the Briggs replacement catalog couldn't help him past 10hp because they don't list any 12hp. engines.

Marc

Marc, got it, that makes sense.

mml4 wrote:

In the Tecumseh type thing I was using that as a reference to show how easy it was to change hp with very little effort or as they would put a switch of a number or two.  As there is no different numbers in the Snapper/Simplicity line, Tecumseh was the next best thing.

I also know that there is no comparison in L heads and OHV.  I do work around these engines everyday and would prefer to see the OHV anyday.  It's hard for me to sit here and explain it - I can show it to you if I have several books spread across to point to the different numbers or even the micro fiche (yeah those are still around) all the resources we have at work - and still no answers.  Nobody's numbers are the same.

With that being said - I'm going to nurse my headache - tomorrow's going to be a long day.

Sherri

Just a Thought.   You all are doing  well in the HP research pls keep going and Thanks much,  But I was thinking of maybe another avenue to gain some Info.  Does anybody know of anyone who races go-carts, clubs, organizations.  I am just figuring that they may put a lot of those youngins by the rules out there in horsepower brackets.  Obviously you couldn,t put one of them out there in something that could be dangerous.  and it may be go-carts, but it would be competitive and you couldn' be out there in an 8hp an under bracket, and all of a sudden one of the newer maybe misbadged engines get on the track with 50 percent actual more HP and starts blowing every one off the road.  This could be much more noticable than on say a snowblower, cause those cart motors are running through the whole operating range of RPM.  So maybe they have already went thru some of this and they would maybe of had to at least partially solve some of it to keep it regulated better in their sport 

Just a thought

Ben07

Ben, good thinking.

I don't know anyone today that is doing it. I wonder if they use the following engines though? If so, it wouldn't help out cause much.

Briggs Racing engines.

Hi there Ben,

MissSnowshoveler wrote:
I don't think you can "pick up" HP in a gear box unless your referring to losses due to friction. A gear box doesn't change the amount of energy per time ( HP, KWH, joules per second, whatever) it changes the speed and the torque. One goes up the other goes down.

What are the main things that affect HP?

1. displacement
2. compression
3. fuel

Anything else?

BTW here's the expalnation of the B&S numbering scheme. http://www.briggsandstratton.com/display/router.asp?DocID=65324

Add "Air" to the equation.

 Marshall,

Make that "Density" of air.

Colder air is more dense than warm.

Atmospheric pressure and altitude affect HP.

At 18,000 feet above sea  level, pressure is 1/2 of what it is at sea level.

Therefor an engine ,8HP at sea level only produces 4 HP at 18,000 feet of altitude.

That is why recip engines need superchargers for high altitude flying.

                     Fred  

Carburetion, compression, ignition, and muffler.  

jubol wrote: Correct Fred but, air still produces HP, just that denser air helps produce more HP.

Is denser a word?

nibbler wrote:

Hi Nibbler .. There are a lot of things that can affect HP as you know.  But one aspect I want to add to the pot of stew just to caution, as trying to figure it out if there is small differences like the thickness of a head gasket  (assuming that it is not a lot  ) It may not change the peak aspect of the HP drastic enough on a 1 cyl small engine.  I will give you a litleblurb on that in a second, cause that is my secondary point.  But it can very well alter the  torque and or HP curve somewhere in the graph .  Example just to make it relative.  The gasket may take a 9 to a say 9.1 at 4000 rpm   however the application to the whole engine may make it peak 300 rpm sooner etc.  So maybe  amost same HP at peak but developed at diff speeds. So the question  is can they change an 8 HP to a 9HP with the head gasket thickness.  The way they seem to be allowed to use the test ratings, as in sometimes within operating range of the machine and sometimes over and above the operating range of the machine however within the limits of the operating range of the engine,   then they definately can change horsepower  on paper.

gpCan the head gasket give it 13% more hp on a 1 cyl engine.  There would have to be a big differ in thickness after the installation crush.  A lot of people are use to like auto's going (pre- Emission)  from a 9 to 1  up to a 12 to 1 ratio and gaining an overall 10 percent hp. like asy 30 hp gain in a v8.  But when you shave the heads on a v* you are shaving 8 cylinders  .not just one   so the figure sounds a bit higher.  So you can still investigate it,  but it could turn out that there are so many overlapping factors, you might drive yourself crazy.

Didn't mean to get complicated just trying to help

 

Ben07

Richie wrote:

porting, valve size and timing, piston shape, weight of some parts

nibbler wrote:
I would think of a gear box as a torque multiplier.

robmints wrote:
I would think of it as a speed selector. LOL 

I sure wish I could figure out those smiley things.  Because I would find a real special one,  just for you Marshall. If you turned it on it's side it might look like a smile.

Hahahahahahaha!

That would be the very first time a derriere has ever been used in association to a description or depiction of my blooming personality .  

This is what I think of when I think of you, Marshall.
You are a peach after all.

  Rob,

  Also he might be a little "Fuzzy" at times !!

                                                 Fred   

For whatever this is worth I was looking through the Briggs website and found horsepower ratings for engines in the spark plug section:

spark plugs

Seems to say the 20G400 series is a 11 hp engine.

Hi Guys! Tom- That's correct because notice in the "20" cubic inch engine category they don't admit to a 12hp engine. How can they have a plug reccomendation for an engine they don't produce.

But if you look at the Simplicity line of large frame blowers you see a 20G414011E1 badged as a 12hp.engine. In addition while it is as yet unconfirmed it would appear that the 12hp in the Snapper line is also a 20G414011E1.

Marc

LINT, WHERE ARE YOU, WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON ALL THIS? I KNOW YOU HAVE AN OPINION.  

    I recently bought a Snapper 924 which has a 9hp B&S model # 20C414.  I asked the B&S email account if the 20C414 is an aluminum alloy (as the 20A412 is or cast iron as the 20D414 is).  I received an email from B&S saying the 9 hp engine I mentioned is in fact cast iron for sleeve and that it is special order for Snapper.   Engines in Snapper manual all have same displacement.  B&S lists all  as having same max rpm.  so it has me wondering how do they get the extra horsepower.  Mine does say 9 hp on label on engine, so I assume it is.  Torque varies slightly from one to another- 13- 14 lbs of torque at about 2500 rpm.  I asked if I should replace the regular oil with synthetic oil before the 2 hr break in-B&S email reply did not seem to be pushing synthetic- said I would do it after 8 hr break in.  I told them I would use Mobil # 1 if they thought it was OK.  They said that is fine.

     That series of  B&S OHV 9-12 hp is their premium engine- main difference  seemed to be the premium parts and looks like cast iron sleeves.

     You can get Champion platinum replacement plugs for the RC12YC  which is the spark plug for the B&S at least the 9 hp.

It is not easy to get all the info in a straight forward manner from the web sites.

hidato

Hi Hidato-

Take a very close look at the number on your engine. I think you may find that the C is a G. Snow Shoveler  and Miss Snowshoveler who are Snapper dealers confirmed in an earlier post  that the engine in the 9hp Snapper is the 20G414011E1.

See reply #42 in this thread.

If you call Snapper I think you will find out the same information.The first time I looked at my engine I mis- read the G as a C.I spent a lot of time on the phone with Briggs but found their knowledge of which engine the manufacturer uses to be lacking. If you call Simplicity/Snapper you will get more exact info.

Welcome to the forum,

Marc

sawman wrote:

Pat:

I hate to let this mystery go unsolved.  Simplicity refuses to respond to my email request regarding my engine and the differences in the Briggs site regarding hp ratings. 

Has your tech contact made any progress?

Hi Tom-

Call Simplicity at (262)284-8669. Go to the service option which I think is 2. Eventually  you will be able to speak with a tech.

Marc

TomP wrote:

Sorry, I have not bben on in last few days. No I have not heard anything from our tech guy, but will do a follow up. But please lets remember that Simplicity only buys the engines they do not make them.

sawman wrote:

I believe I have been fair and balanced in this thread but I must take issue with the above statement. Simplicity and all of the OPE manufacturers order specfic engines for their equiptment. They are fully aware  that they are using the EXACT same engine badged differently on VARIOUS models at different prices.

If one were to  take the time to read all of my posts in this thread you will see that the technician at Simplicity explained quite clearly in our phone conversation that the reason for using the same engine was to keep the cost of production reasonable.

If you doubt what has been reported the # for Simplicity is (262)284-8667.To their credit they do take phone calls and the technicians have proven to be forthright and honest.

Marc

Hi there Pat,

I originally thought that same thing about not blaming the OPE manufacturer for these engine discrepancies.  What made me rethink that assumption was when I contacted Tecumseh a few weeks back and gave them the model number of my engine.  This Tecumseh Rep said, yes, your engine is a 9 HP.  As I continued with my conversation and asked why is my snowblower sold as an 8 HP model, he continued and said, "well, the manufacturer that ultimately sells the equipment can rate them or derate them for their needs or something along those lines.  So it also has to do with the marketing policies of each company just to name one thing. 

I find myself wishing that OPE was sold similar to how a dirt bikes and motorcycles are sold which is by the CC's of the engine.   Although power differences are evident as the CC's are increased, those numbers are still fudged as well.  I remember my Suzuki GSX-R1100 which was supposed to be 1,100cc's was actually something like 1,028cc's and my Honda XR-75 was only 72cc's.  Any way you look at it, the industry needs to get away from this HP rating because the way the HP rating process works, it means nothing.  It's the industry as a whole and why I don't like referring to any one specific brand name.  The system needs to be fixed big time.

Marc, so the Simplicity Tech's are telling you that the engines are exactly the same, producing the same horsepower and torque with absolutely no difference between them except the HP label?

Hi guys!

Marshall--In as clear a voice as I can muster and in the shortest discourse I am capable of-YES!!

Check my first post in this thread which I started. The quotation marks in my description of my discussion with the tech are there for a reason. I like to think I am not given to exageration when reporting such conversations. As I said before I spent a lot of time on this and  would not have posted this info if I wasn't convinced. It is a rather large portion of crow I would have to consume if proven wrong. In addition we should remember that Miss Snowshoveler reported the same thing when checking the two Snapper units of different HP badges  when she checked her stock.

Snapper and Simplicity as you know are now sister companys both owned by Briggs.In closing may I add that NOBODY has posted any info that disputes what I have  posted concerning the spec #s or what they mean.

Marc

PS This ,sadly, is as short a discourse as I am capable of!

Marc, I didn't mean to get you testy by asking, I asked that way for a reason.

When I read the statement in quotes from the Sims rep.........

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

.......I read where he says the engines are the same. What I don't see is where he says they produce the same HP and torque and are no different in any way.

I was wondering if he was using the term "engine" as meaning the same block or, whatever. Like if I spoke with a service rep at a GM dealer and he said the Roadmaster uses the Corvette engine. He would be right, it does but, that's not the whole story.

Anyhow, that's why I asked, wasn't questioning your post, just looking for clarity.

Marshall -

Not testy at all!! Believe me !!! I am not at all angry and in no way mind being questioned.

The tech clearly stated that they were exactly the same engine except for badging.

For me this has been a wonderfull LEARNING experience. I now know to look at OPE the way the manufacturers do. The power is just an outsourced part to them.They don't even warranty it. No emotional involvement in the engine dept. as far as they are concerned. You could really tell that during the conversation. When I asked about the Power Boost which is a pulley and spring system unique to Simplicity the guy became totally enthusiastic! Talk about engines he could care less.

Marc 

This certainly has the title of the longest thread on Abby's.

I'm certainly still trying to find out more info.  Not getting many answers - but what do I expect sometimes???

And yes Marshall, it is a very longgggggggggggg thread - but well worth it.  I had the boss read it when it was in it's 60's and it took him forever.  Now that's it's longer - he'll have to take my word for it.

Sherri

Unfortunately I am getting no where with this.  Here is my response from Simplicity:

The horse power of the 1060E snowthrower is 10 HP.  The torque curve is
available from Briggs & Stratton.  They can be contacted at
800-274-4485.
The Model of the engine in the 1060E (1694590) is 20G414  0111-E1.
Thank you for your interest.
T. C. Sumner, Sr.
Service Department

Marc,
When you say spring and pulley system. If I remember it transfers "power" to the auger/impeller in heavy snow. I'm guessing it slows the units forward speed. So it has Reeves pulleys, like an MTD tractor with a Transamatic transmission?

MissSnowshoveler wrote:
Oh I agree, excellent thread! It just hit me when right before I made that post about the length of the thread, how many post there were. I was shocked.

Hi Guys

Mints-Under heavy load the machine"senses" the extra load and brings the split pulley that takes up the slack in the auger belt (idler pulley?) closer to the center of rotation of the engine shaft. This gives the auger more oomph because the idler is creating more tension on the belt. This is how the tech explained it to me.

 If you remember I bought this machine for my son so I haven't had a chance to play with it yet or look under the belt cover. I ordered the blow up diagram/parts manual which hasn't been delivered yet . If the diagram explains how it works I'll have my son post it.

What's a Reeves pulley and how does a  Transamatic transmission work?

Marc  

 

Hey Tom!

You might want to Email Mr Sumner and ask him why your neighbors 1280E(1694592) 12hp has the same 20G4140111-E1that your 1060E has. If yours is 10hp how can his be 12hp?

In poker I think they call that "call and raise"!  You might also want to inquire of him why Briggs doesen't list a 20G414 in their catalog of replacement engines in a 12HP model.

Marc

mml4 wrote:
I don't think the "more tension" explanation makes sense since that would mean that most of the time the belt is slipping. I don't know how it does it but my understanding is that the sysem changes the pulley ratio so that the auger /impeller have more torque when its under heavy load.

A Reeves pulley setup is where you have two variable diameter pulleys. As one pulley's diameter gets smaller the other one gets larger. This means that the belt tension stays constant but the ratio of the two pulley's diameters changes  and hence the speed and torque change. How the diameters change can either be automatic depending on the RPM the system is running at or it can be manually controlled. Normally you have one side of the pulley fixed and the other side is movable. As the movable side moves away from the fixed side the "V" shape of the sides causes the diameter that the belt is in contact with to decrease. As the sides move together the diameter increases. I remember reading about an automatic transmission for a car that was based on this system. An example of a manually controlled Reeves sytem is the Shopsmith, it has a dial that allows you to change the speed that the arbour is turning at. I've also seen it used in at least one wood turning turning lathe.

Hi Guys-

Nibbler-I can only tell you what the guy told me. He  described it as a split pulley system and a movement closer to the center of rotation causing more belt tension.

Would it not make sense that if the belt tension was static, at a particular load point it would slip but if there were a way to increase tension the slippage would stop?

Way out of my league here,

Marc 

This thread has made me reconsider the Simplicity Commercial line in terms of what you get for your money.  Assuming the 9560E thru 1280E all have the same engine this is what you are paying for:

 

Moving from 9560E to the 1060DLXE: (extra $200)

 

You get drift cutters, headlight, remote chute deflector, heavier frame and power boost.  Seems like money well spent.

 

Moving from the 1060DLXE to the 1170E (extra $100)

 

You get an extra four inches in width (24 to 28).  If time is an issue this seems okay.

 

Moving from the 1170E to the 1280E (extra $400)

 

Handwarmers and an extra four inches in width (28 to 32).  Seems high.  What is wrong with a good pair of gloves?

 

Looking at it this way I still would have bought the 1060DLXE.  I can also see a reason for someone to be happy with either the 9560E or the 1170E.  Looks like the 1280 owners may have a beef.

 

We haven’t heard from the Ariens and Toro users.  Is this the same issue with other brands?

TomP wrote:

Hi Tom maybe I got it wrong, but is it correct to say a consumer has to pay 700  more dollars for cutters, light, frame, boost, warmers, and 4 inches of width.  So if he would have bought the 9560  he would have been able to do the same job with his equipment.  with 1 or two more passes on the driveway.  The reason I ask is I noted a lot of people saying they don't care what the horsepower of the engine is as long as the dealer sells them one that is capable of doing the job.  The other naysayers say just buy bigger and don't worry about it.  So if they went to a Simp dealer they could do that and shell out 700 bucko's for 4 more inches of width. (sry I don't think drift cutters qualifies as buying bigger, you can add them to any machine for minimal cost )

Not sure if a diff comes into play here.  My point is, is it fraud.  A good answer to that is how many people would have bought the big one if they knew it had the same engine as the little one.  No not saying they would have bought the little one.  They may have settled somewhere in the middle.  The fact remains is they based their decision partly on the sticker of the engine   Plain and simple It is fraud and it is illegal..  Maybe there is some chance that the ope industry is not hoseing us. But I think this thread is past the point of them being innocent untill proven guilty. 

Ben07:

I certainly am not defending Simplicity.  It sure looks like the same engine is being used for the 4 models.

In my case I saw no difference between 9.5 and 10 hp engines and preferred the 1060 for the frame, drift breakers, light, adjustable deflector and power boost.  If the engines were identifical I still would have paid the differential.  My only point in the post is that although you may have been mislead by the specs you still may have purchased the same machine.  I am very happy with the performance.

I would also be interested in learning is this a Simplicity issue, Briggs issue or all manufacturers issue.  I don't believe we will hear anything other than the specs are accurate from Simplicity or Briggs here. 

Hey Guys,
Up to now, I have not really read this thread........I own an Ariens and so I did not think it really concerned me.
As the thread reached 100 posts,  it peaked my interest.    WOW!

It seems like I have reason more each day to turn cynical.

Marshall posted awhile back that with the Tec engines, my 13hp IS bigger and different than the other ones, so I guess I have no dog in this fight.

I would be angry if I bought a 12hp briggs unit thinking I was getting more HP then the less expensive 9hp.

Come lawnmower season....(a few more months yet here)...will this be an issue?

Anyway, I'm happy with my 13hp Ariens....it does the job, and it looks like the specs are bigger then the smaller engines Ariens puts on the snowblowers.  I'd be screaming if that were not the case.

It would be interesting to put a 12hp and a 9hp of the units in question side to side to really see if there is a difference, but from what you guys have found out, there IS no difference.
If that is true, I have no respect for these companies or the dealers who are pushing the bigger blowers because of the HP, and I'd really be mad if I bought a biggest blower just for the power alone.

Actually, that's what I did do, but it looks like in the case of Ariens, you really do get what you are paying for......a 13hp engine that is bigger then the smaller ones. I'm glad I bought the model I bought.

Frank D.

mml4 wrote:
The light may have dawned on this one. Here's my GUESS.

Maybe its a Reeves setup with a stiff threshold. When the unit is under heavy load the pulleys change from the "normal" ratio to the "heavy load" ratio with practically no intermediate ratios.

I think we need to get Paula and Dave in Wisconsin to drive to Briggs in Milwaukee and see what's up. If they don't come forth, go get a news crew.

I have a feeling Paula would get them to talk. 

TomP I understand your decision, no problem there, I think I would have done the same thing. That's why I said consumers make their purchase partly on the advertized horsepower of the engine.  I just didn't want  you to think I in any way implying you on my next post.  By the way you have been a great help in this thread so thanks for that also. 

Ben07

Hi Guys !

Not so fast!!

The price differential between machines may be warranted after all! Lets take a look at one difference between the Simplicity 1170E and 1280E. Handwarmers are optional on the 1170E and standard on the 1280E. How much is a hand warmer? Couldn't find the part# for the Simplicity in time for this post(I will later) but I did find it for the Ariens. Part Number 07532900 listed at $65.12 PER SIDE. Tires are bigger on the 1280E as compared to the 1170E as well. Are there other less obvious differences that account for the price difference? Not sure- The point is we have to stop looking at the engine as the only factor in pricing strategy.

Marc 

mml4 wrote:

Marc,

I don't think the value added features are the point. Everyone is looking for something different. Lets say someone does not want handwarmers, and does not care about the tire size. But their main and only concern was available power. If they pay more for the power because the machines are badged the way they seem to be, they are being deceived.

If the engines are the same, they shoud be badged the same. No question.

There can be other warranty factors. But not very likley.

Marc,

This is an extremely interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

robmints wrote:

Marc I got to help Rob Drive this home.  It is understood that there in some cases be warranted a price varience that is justified by the options.  BUT STILL THE CUSTOMER IS BASING PART OF HIS DECISION ON THE ADVERTIZED HORSEPOWER. 

How is a customer going to really know the hidden HP if we cannot find it in here with enthusiasts and experts,  and teamwork, and looking at it from both sides. etc etc. 

If we/you all get off on this itty bitty tangent of sometimes it is justified, then we may as well play a game of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" when making a purchase.  and if we ignor it than we are truly wearing a blind fold.  I suggest that we stick with what the horsepower of the engine really is compared to what it is advertized as. and granted you could be ripped off on unscaved or get a better deal than you think purchasing it blindly.  That's been gone thru,  but is  not the root issue. 

And Marc you are one of the best guys inhere, and I know you are always and only looking at if from both sides to be fair and thorough,  But I think this thread is beyond that point.  For instance it is getting so good that it has attracted new viewers, and they weren't afraid to post in the middle of it all , but commented that they had to read a lot to catch-up.  Why did they have to read a lot is because most all of us have been covering the option complication mixed in with the Horsepower .  Why don't we start a new thread entitled "What is the true horsepower of your engine"  then those that are interested in that can go there, and anybody who wants to talk about the whole conglomerate of issues mixed together can spin that around all they want in here, and we will see where the real conversation/problem solving will be.

In all due respect Ben07

Pls feel free to P M me if I am out of line here.   I am just tired of this issue being dragged thru  the mud most of the time because it is hard enough solving the horsepower issue on it's own.  and aparently all the manufacturers made it difficult to do simultaneously with the timing of when the emissions people have to be in full swing.   What a coincidence HUH?

Coincidence that none of these problems were around for like 60 years.  Yeah Right!!!

"I am just tired of this issue being dragged thru  the mud most of the time"

Explain that to me please, what do you mean?

Marshall wrote:

Marshal
The intermixing of the cost and or justification of options on the machine when you as a consumer are being told what they are, but the thing you are not being told is the actual horsepower,  it can be a hidden element  .. as example drift cutters are not a hidden element.  so why mix it in with the actual problem being  false advertized horsepower,  the other options are not being advertized falsly  but the horsepower is  so the issue is the actual horsepower   not the options

Ben07

Ok, that's what I thought you meant, just wanted to be sure.

But, different people look at things in different ways Ben. I don't know if I would call it dragging this issue through the mud but instead just expressing different ways they choose to think about it for whatever reason.

On a nother note, call me stubborn, skeptical, or just someone thinking we don't have the whole complete story for some reason but, I am still not 100% convinced that all of these engines put out identicle HP and Torque. I'm not disputing anything told anyone or anything posted either. From all we have seen, It sure looks that way! I'm just pig headed I guess. LOL

Marshall wrote:

Marshall if you review my edit of your quote in the above.  I agree with you and feel the same way.  I believe we are all in the same ball-park.  And I would caution that saying all of these engines are mis-badged is not a way of solving it.  If we find some engines are badged correctly, well that does not prove anything, because that is what they are suppose to be doing.  It is the cases where they are falsly advertized.  And in the cases that people have been investigating it seems to go a step further.  They don't mistate it once, like it could be an error or something.  They are so bold and blatent they don't worry about putting all kind of levels on it.   (i.e. 9hp same as a 10,10.5, 11 etc) 

Even if it is now not an epidemic, the fox still has the keys to the hen house.  You are saying you are a skeptic, well so am I  but what I am worrying about is the foxs' appetite. (and his friends appetite's, this could establish precedent for all types of products)

Ben07 

OK guys, I just got off the hook with Briggs & Stratton in Milwaukee Wi.

The tech I spoke with in the engine department told me that it is entirely possible that there are engines out there rated at 12 HP and labled 9HP!

I pushed him on it further, he kept to his story and said yes, downlabling is something that is done. He defended it by saying you get more than you paid for. I pressed him saying that I had to buy more machine than I wanted to get 12HP. I told him I wanted a smaller frame with more HP and could have received that for less money than I spent. He thought about it and hesitantly agreed with me. I did not speak of any engines other than the 20G414011E1 snow engines.

I am now convinced.

Marshall "You are Da Man" You even got us a new Buzzword... Downlabeling   ..  You went the extra mile, as you said you were a skeptic, well being a skeptic can help solve a problem also.

A lot of people started this and contributed to it heavily.  Congradulations,  It's a pleasure to be in here with youns.

(Youns that is a Pittsburgh word)

So Marshall why don Marc or Richie, or  yourself start a new thread called Downlabeling of HP ..   Just a suggestion to help center this thing.  And that way they will send the asassins to your house.

Ben07

NO, I TAKE NO CREDIT, I JUST MADE A PHONE CALL, YOU GUYS FOUND IT!

ANOTHER THREAD? NO, I DON'T THINK I PERSONALLY WILL START ONE, DON'T WANT TO COME OFF AS BASHING BRIGGS OR ANYTHING, SOMEONE MAY TAKE IT THAT WAY. THE POSITIVE SIDE IS THAT THE PEOPLE WITH 9, 10 AND 11 HP LABLED ENGINES HAVE MORE POWER THAN THEY THOUGHT. THE BAD NEWS IS, IF THEY WANTED A LESSER MACHINE WITH 9HP OR 12 HP, THEY DIDN'T GET IT.

Does anybody have any relavent insight on Tecumpseh Downlabeling,  for us to investigate further

Ben07 wrote:

Ben,

I have my doubts if you'll actually be able to find information on Tecumseh or Honda, or even Kohler doing this same exact unethical business practice to this extent.  The reason being is that Briggs owns Simplicity.  The actual overhead for them to do what they do I'm sure is a marginal cost at best on their part.  Sure is a good way for them to make their snowblowers out perform anything else.  But there is certainly additional costs involved to own one, even if it's their lower end 2-stage blower.  I'm glad I'm not naive enough to believe that no matter what tier snowblower you are buying from them, you are being GIVEN a 12 HP by any stretch of the imagination and actually paying for the size the sticker says.  This is the part I have the problem with when it comes to Simplicity.  The underlining issue was just the fact none of these engines put out the rated horse power.  Funny where all this has lead us. 

 Guys,

The Tec OHV engines, 8, 9, 10, and 11 HP all have the same displacement, stroke, bore, and weight!!

Fishey to me!!!!!!

I suspect the same thing is going on with them also.

                                                                      Fred    

mml4 wrote:

Hi Guys-

I started this thread on Feb.21 as a report of the conversation with Simplicity trying to find out if they were using Aluminum or cast iron bore engines! If you remember that was my original issue. Who would have thought it would have gone in  this direction?

What we have done in this thread is to become enlightened and informed consumers. We now know how to judge which machine we purchase and the role HP should play in that decision.

It is arguable as to whether or not the 1280E is not good value. It may not be for a homeowner who figures a few more passes is no big deal when looking at the price differential. But what about a school custodian who is trying to clear the bus entrance and parking area before the kids arrive? The extra width means a lot to him. Bet he is willing to pay for it. Remember we are speaking of commercial machines not the intermediate units designed for the home. In addition no one has complained that the units are under powered no matter which frame they are in.

Maybe I am too accepting of these practices but I don't believe the manufacturers are trying to defraud us. They are faced with trying to explain to an engine loving public that once you have enough power engines are not an issue. I believe that the use of the same power keeps the price of the entire line down. This is a good thing ,no? 

Finally ,OPE should be advertised and promotional literature printed that stresses the frame and options and lists the power as guaranteed to be adequate.

Marc  

Keep in mind gentlemen this is a chance for a 2-FER

Good point Max427 ,(is that a chevy or a ford 427?)  I will have to think that one over, actually I will hope for someone more of an expert to answer it.

What I want to point out.  Is there is an opportunity here for any of you power enthusiasts. to get some more power at minimal cost. May be a good time to buy a different machine while the extra horsepower could be a deal.

My personal experience with this is.  I think I have a new machine that is Downlabeled.  I am not sure in writing yet.  but the point I would like to make is it can really go almost (and I stress almost) unnoticable under normal snowfalls,  like 8 inch or below.  

However when you get into like a foot or more.  The display of the horsepower  is incredable.  I am running a labeled 8.5 tec that seems to run like a 11/12 minimum.  I stated this before a lot of this was brought up. I am no expert, but I didn't fall off a tree yesterday either. 

And if it is true .  It is a great advantage,  because the machine doesn't tear itself apart under normal snowfalls,  you know I am not rocking and rolling coming up to the line at a drag race,  but when it needs the extra power, it doesn't hesitate.  I almost feel I bought two machines  for the price of 1 actually 2 for the price of 2/3 because of it being a no frills machine , as that is a model that they sold at home depot and discounted the heck out of it/

Ben07

hi guys and girls (Paula, Sherri any others im unaware of)

Marshall did a good thing actually making the call to the briggs boys...ive done that but havent gotten a return on my calls.

and Marc.you made some very good points about the way this new generation of snowblowers should be sold.

with this new  briggs engine on the snappers that we sell ,horsepower is no longer an issue.

we test every one on the lawn and some times they are blowing in snow thats a foot deeper that the bucket.

and you never even hear the engine strain,governor dosent even kick in.

power no prob.

it now is the rest of the machine.

how easy will it turn ...

good weight balance...

is the headlight any good...

are the handlebars flimsy or wrong height,how about adjustable height.

does it shift easy.

are repairs like belts and bushings very hard or do you spend an hour and a half putting an impeller belt in.

this is the stuff that should now be an issue.

you may have come up with a good idea Marc...well done  

later chris

I have to disagree with the idea of selling a 12 hp engine to a consumer and labeling it 33 percent lower.  That is rediculous and what they are going to find out is it actually is a safety issue.  All somebody has to do is get hurt or hurt someone when using one of these downlabeled things and the Lawyers will clean house,  Wether it is true or warranted or not.  Leagally they will be liable.  If people can make millions of dollars on McDonalds coffee being too hot,  when all coffee has been server that way for hundreds of years  , got to make you think it is possable.

Then to boot have workers use a misbadged machine on the job and get hurt  OSHA will have a field day.

Ben07

Well,
It looks as though through many of your good detective skills you have discovered a great scam here.......
While those who bought a lower hp unit are now pleased to find that they bought more then they thought they did, others who may have bought the higher HP model solely based on wanting the most power they could get have been ripped off.
Now it is true that they bought other features with that unit that MAY justify the price difference, IF their buying decision was based on HP, they were deceived.

It looks like I dodged the bullet here somewhat because the Tec 13hp supposedly is NOT in this group,  BUT, even with the Ariens, if the 9-11.5 HP are really 12hp engines mislabeled, then perhaps the ONLY difference between the 11.5 and the 13hp Ariens Pro is the 4" width and ONE hp.

Now, for me, I got an awesome deal with my 1332DLE, and am very happy with it.........BUT, perhaps I would have bought the 926 DLE for much less had I known that it really had a 12hp engine on it.......I may have been willing to give up Key start and 6 inches width and ONE hp, for a unit that cost hundreds less then my 1332DLE.

The fact is that I correctly assumed that the 926DLE was 4 HP less then the 1332DLE.....not ONE HP less.  No wonder there are many here who are THRILLED with their 926DLE.

I find this all hard to believe, it seems VERY WRONG.

Is there a lawyer in the house??.....( Seem to remember that we DO have a resident lawyer here....time for a Abby's class action suit??)

I'm half kidding......but am a bit more cynical now with ALL OPE makers when it comes to HP......I'll keep this in mind for future OPE purchases.......check with you smart OPE guys first.

If I had one of these units that are currently labeled 9 hp......and I planned on selling it soon, perhaps I'd order a 12hp sticker to slap in it first and truthfully get more......

Frank D.

okay Ben you have my attention now...

not trying to be a smart A... but how are you gonna hurt your self with a 12 horse engine labeled as a 9 on a snowblower.

the rest of the snowblower is exactly the same except for the width of the auger.

this is a fact i checked the parts lists on all the snappers.

same gear box same tranny setup same motor box same belts and pulleys.

well actually the tires are wider on the wider machines but thats all.

i dont understand the problem with this.

if it was a lawnmower ,yes i would be concerned .

but the impeller in a snowblower  simply dosent turn that fast.

where is the danger ? i know about the lawyer thing but...

again im not trying to be a smart a...

later chris

Title this one why can't they just label them all 12 horsepower if that is what they are???

Snowshoveler Chris

Ok Chris somethin wrong with my computer as I cannot copy your quote.  Here is my point on the safety thingy.  Sure harder to get hurt on a snowblow application  but it can be done.  that is not my actual point  What someone can do is have an accident and blame it on the underestimated horsepower stated by the manufacturer.. 

I am not a lawyer but the whole thing will result in them pinning the manufacturer by saying  "Well why didn't you label them all as 12 horsepower engines when that is what they are in the first place    They will be guilty of deception and the accident that may not have even been the cause of the operator knowing the actual horsepower.  

If you want a good example  of danger  I let someone use my snowblower and they had used it before on smaller amounts of snow  Now there was a hughe amount.  I surveyed the location and let them go .. soon to find that the machine blew way higher than I thought .an 8 hp could ever possably blow, especially in a deep amount of snow.  But the deep amount is what it  caused it to increase it's throwing distance, when it wouldn,t have happened with a smaller horsepower, it may then have dexreased the distance.    . there was a utility transformer right in the turn around area.  If I wouldn't have caught it it would have been hosed down for 20 seconds.  They could have started out in this area and never dreamed they would hit that object,  If you don't think that is dangerous let's look at it this way.  How about someone trying to take a metal garden hose and soaking down a high voltage transformer for about 30 seconds , and see if it is dangerous or not.  Hope that was a good enough example cause it is a true story .. and I can come up with examples that would be fictisious but possable.  Like someone gets an eye put out. could happen with a two horsepower etc.  but the legal process will beat up the safety issue of understatement of HP

Now I am not being smart either but safety issues are almost always caused by the mind set of it can never happen. and taken further as in it can never happen to me.

And again why don't they take all the guesswork out and label them all 12 horsepower.

Ben07

max427 wrote:

Hi Guys

According to the Simplicity brochure the 1060E throws 40' while the 1170E and 1280E throw 45'.Given that the engine is the same  and they all sport the same4 blade 12" impeller perhaps the difference is the wider blower housing. It may also be that the chute on the three larger units is taller or-------?

The 1390E which is powered by a DIFFERENT engine than the other three also is listed at 45'.

UH OH!

Just looked at the footnote on the bottom of page13 in the brochure:

"*Distances and snow stream can be affected greatly by snow conditions.

Marc

Marshall wrote:
Nice job Marshall.  Best news I have had this week.

When you lean on people they evidently crumble.  Hopefully I will never be on the receiving end.

Ben...

you are absouletly (sp) right,im glad you pointed it out.

and i have been bragging about that very thing,have been telling customers that these snowblowers will blow the snow up over the power wires...not very smart of me.

sometimes im not looking at this like i should be,thanks again

later chris 

Chris  Thx you are a good guy.  and seems like you and the wife are a perfect complimentary couple.  count your Blessings cause youns sure got some  (youns  dats a Pittsburgh word)

Ben

Marshall   what so far about 30 hits on this subject so far and the day is not over???

mml4 wrote:

Hi Marc - but with the same engine, HP, Impeller - wouldn't a narrower housing  with the same power create more "pressure" thus blowing the snow further?

I also don't see a meaningful danger increase in having a 12 horse engine in a unit someone thinks is a 9hp - snowblowers are dangerous animals no matter what the power.

Ben - Ford made a 427?  427/435 in my 67 Vette  hahahah.

max427 wrote:

Yeah ford made one  they put it in their ford gt 40 the one that won Lemans in the early 60's   they also used it in production cars,  also of famous note it was the motor in the ford duece coup that had the race in 2 lane blacktop against the 55 454 chevy. (at least I thought it was the ford 427 as to how the engine looked and where the distributor was positioned,  however it was hard to tell as they never gage a good shot at it.) I had in interest as I built a 55 chev post same almost as that car with a 336 chev .. (327 punched .0030 over .((yeah most people punched over .060, but rev ratio is much better with only .030))r whole ten yards bal bulped solids headers  animal bars etc. so it wa an interest when I saw the movie..

I amglad you only have the 435 HP  thought you got hold of an L-88   that was made in 67 also  ... 67 one of Vette's best years.

Ben07 

Ben07 wrote:

Just kiddin about the L-88 that 435 is the best of the two as far as I am concerned.  That sucker  can really  roll up the pavement behind you

TomP wrote:
Tom,

Actually the guy was darn nice and so was I to him. All I did to press him was to ask him to tell me specifically how the difference in horspower and torque were made in these engines, what parts were involved and that I was writing this info down in order to go to the dealer directly and know what to ask for. That is when he just flat out gave it all up and admitted downlabeling on these engines exists.

After we were done with that I told him that I was made aware of the possibility of this and was just wanting to verify if it was correct or not. I told him I am from Oklahoma and don't even have a snowblower, we hung up after laughing about it a bit. I didn't want to hang up and having him feel that he might have made a bad decision to tell me the truth.

Marshall wrote:

In a conversation yesterday with a representative of Simplicity, he said that downsizing is an accepted thing in the industry, it is no way cheating the customer because he is actually getting more for his money. The reason he explained is simple economics and by doing this keeps the price down for all affected models. He went on to explain that if Simplicity or any other company needed 100,000 engines, they would get a certain price from the manufacturer, but if they needed 30,000 9hp 10,000 10hp and 60,000 12 hp their costs go up significantly on all models, so they purchase 100,000 of the larger units and downlabel the other models.

I'm thinking of buying a 16hp B&S engine to replace a blown 12.5 vanguard V-twin that is on a tractor I bought that is Identical to mine. Was just wondering if I would be getting 18hp for the price of the 16hp. Apparently not. Darn!

16 HP VANGUARD ENGINES

• Model Series 303700
• Displacement 29.30 cu. in. (480 cc)
• Bore 2.68 in. (68 mm)
• Stroke 2.60 in. (66 mm)
• Oil Capacity 48.0 fl. oz. (1.42 l) w/o Filter, 56 fl. oz. (1.66 l) w/ Filter

18 HP VANGUARD ENGINES

• Model Series 350700
• Displacement 34.75 cu. in. (570 cc)
• Bore 2.83 in. (72 mm)
• Stroke 2.75 in. (70 mm)
• Oil Capacity 48.0 fl. oz. (1.42 l) w/o Filter, 56 fl. oz. (1.66 l) w/ Filter

                                                                                                                                          Kevin

Sawman,
With all due respect, I see what the Simplicity guy was saying, but I disagree with him..........(not you).
Yes, the guy who buys a nine HP unit is getting a deal, but , at the risk of beating a dead horse here, the guy who is shopping for the most power is paying more for nothing.

The truth is the truth, and they should be more truthful......mark all  blowers as what they really are in hp, and sell the bigger units for more based on the other features, such as width, accessories, etc.

They could sugar coat this all they want, and justify it with economics, but the bottom line is that it is deceitful. Period.

Now, the question here, seeing that it is now March, and we here only have a few more weeks to snowblow, then we will be talking mowers, is how does this impact lawnmowers?
I've seen riders from 10 hp up to over 20 hp........

I know it is from other reasons, like hydrostatic drive, etc, but my Dad's 35 year old 10hp Allis Chamber mower had more guts then the 20 hp Sears mower I used to have.

Does this affect the smaller push lawn mowers?  Are the 3.5 hp really 5 hp?  I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

Does my exmark with a 20hp Koeller engine really a 20hp....?  My exmark has much more guts then my Sears mower did with a 20 hp Koeller engine.  I think they are different model engines, and I know there are other factors..........

I guess I do not believe any labels anymore, and must check bore, displacement, etc,etc, before buying ANY OPE.

Well, time for work.

Frank D.

sawman wrote:

Hi Pat,

My comments are not directed at you, rather what this representative said to you. 

I think that is the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard, especially if the rumors are correct and Briggs & Stratton really did buy Simplicity.  Even if they didn't, the other reason they don't tell the consumer they are all 12 HP engines is because many consumers will NOT buy that much machine especially when you look at that huge price tag.  How many on this forum would go and spend well over $1,500.00 on a snowblower, not many that's for sure.  If you don't believe that, I know there are some dealers on this forum.  Try telling your customers that these machines are really 12 HP engines and see how many continue their purchase or say, "well, I don't need a snowblower with that much power, give me one with 8 HP for many hundreds less."  These companies really need to stop their tap dancing around us and their pathetic attempts at public relations.  I bet they never tell you about addtional fuel costs incurred by the consumer to run a machine like that either.   

#1.  Has anyone studied how this effects engine replacement? If my 12 HP craps out after warrenty, am I going to go buy a 12HP for more money when I could buy a 9HP for less and really be getting my 12HP?

#2.  Has anyone found any charts/graphs of HP and Torque on the exact same 9, 10, 11 & 12HP models? If so, how varying are they. If they are all different, someone would have to be ficticiously makeing up those #'s wouldn't they?

(I got 2 soccer games today with my kids or I would spend the time to look all that up.)

Marshall wrote:

Marshall,

When you get a chance, look up that exact engine on a retailers website for the Briggs 12 HP with alternator and starter provisions.  I suspect you will not be very happy if for some reason the engine would require replacing after the warranty.  I'd be amazed if this engine is less than $750.00, I'd imagine it would be more than that, plus a high shipping cost to get it to you.  We already know the HP sticker means nothing, so you would have to purchase a 12 HP, assuming you would want to repower it as it is.

hey ...

we sell the "11 horse" engine over the counter as a replacement engine .same model numbers as the snapper ones.

and we have sold 13 or 14 so far and we sell them for 750 cdn. installed .

we sold them for about 650 installed last year.

not sure what that is in US funds,but it is cheep here,thats why we move so many i guess.

later chris

Hi Guys!

Richie-

Briggs doesen't LIST a 12hp engine in their replacement catalog in the 20cubic inch model. That's the whole point of this thread. Don' t order by hp, order the exact spec# and you will get the same engine. We have to learn to disregard hp. stickers.

In addition if you went to replace a 12hp stickered 20G414011E1 you couldn't get it from Briggs because it was made to Simplicty specs and Briggs doesen't  list that engine in their replacement catalog.  You could buy it from Simplicity but that would cost a fortune. The move to make would be to look at the Briggs replacement catalog and buy the 20D4140017 which is the same engine with a cast iron bore.That model by the way is available through Small Engine Warehouse at a discount price.

How does one know to order the 20D4140017 as a replacement? Go to the Briggs site and cruise the replacement catalog and learn how to decipher the spec #.  Tells you everything down to shaft size and whether it has a ring gear for electric start.

Once you get comfotable with spec#s instead of hp the ope world becomes an easier place.

Conversations should be is the power a 20G or a 20D. Not is it a 9hp or 12 hp.

Marc