Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

Marshall "You are Da Man" You even got us a new Buzzword... Downlabeling   ..  You went the extra mile, as you said you were a skeptic, well being a skeptic can help solve a problem also.

A lot of people started this and contributed to it heavily.  Congradulations,  It's a pleasure to be in here with youns.

(Youns that is a Pittsburgh word)

So Marshall why don Marc or Richie, or  yourself start a new thread called Downlabeling of HP ..   Just a suggestion to help center this thing.  And that way they will send the asassins to your house.

Ben07

NO, I TAKE NO CREDIT, I JUST MADE A PHONE CALL, YOU GUYS FOUND IT!

ANOTHER THREAD? NO, I DON'T THINK I PERSONALLY WILL START ONE, DON'T WANT TO COME OFF AS BASHING BRIGGS OR ANYTHING, SOMEONE MAY TAKE IT THAT WAY. THE POSITIVE SIDE IS THAT THE PEOPLE WITH 9, 10 AND 11 HP LABLED ENGINES HAVE MORE POWER THAN THEY THOUGHT. THE BAD NEWS IS, IF THEY WANTED A LESSER MACHINE WITH 9HP OR 12 HP, THEY DIDN'T GET IT.

Does anybody have any relavent insight on Tecumpseh Downlabeling,  for us to investigate further

Ben07 wrote:

Ben,

I have my doubts if you'll actually be able to find information on Tecumseh or Honda, or even Kohler doing this same exact unethical business practice to this extent.  The reason being is that Briggs owns Simplicity.  The actual overhead for them to do what they do I'm sure is a marginal cost at best on their part.  Sure is a good way for them to make their snowblowers out perform anything else.  But there is certainly additional costs involved to own one, even if it's their lower end 2-stage blower.  I'm glad I'm not naive enough to believe that no matter what tier snowblower you are buying from them, you are being GIVEN a 12 HP by any stretch of the imagination and actually paying for the size the sticker says.  This is the part I have the problem with when it comes to Simplicity.  The underlining issue was just the fact none of these engines put out the rated horse power.  Funny where all this has lead us. 

 Guys,

The Tec OHV engines, 8, 9, 10, and 11 HP all have the same displacement, stroke, bore, and weight!!

Fishey to me!!!!!!

I suspect the same thing is going on with them also.

                                                                      Fred    

mml4 wrote:

Hi Guys-

I started this thread on Feb.21 as a report of the conversation with Simplicity trying to find out if they were using Aluminum or cast iron bore engines! If you remember that was my original issue. Who would have thought it would have gone in  this direction?

What we have done in this thread is to become enlightened and informed consumers. We now know how to judge which machine we purchase and the role HP should play in that decision.

It is arguable as to whether or not the 1280E is not good value. It may not be for a homeowner who figures a few more passes is no big deal when looking at the price differential. But what about a school custodian who is trying to clear the bus entrance and parking area before the kids arrive? The extra width means a lot to him. Bet he is willing to pay for it. Remember we are speaking of commercial machines not the intermediate units designed for the home. In addition no one has complained that the units are under powered no matter which frame they are in.

Maybe I am too accepting of these practices but I don't believe the manufacturers are trying to defraud us. They are faced with trying to explain to an engine loving public that once you have enough power engines are not an issue. I believe that the use of the same power keeps the price of the entire line down. This is a good thing ,no? 

Finally ,OPE should be advertised and promotional literature printed that stresses the frame and options and lists the power as guaranteed to be adequate.

Marc  

Keep in mind gentlemen this is a chance for a 2-FER

Good point Max427 ,(is that a chevy or a ford 427?)  I will have to think that one over, actually I will hope for someone more of an expert to answer it.

What I want to point out.  Is there is an opportunity here for any of you power enthusiasts. to get some more power at minimal cost. May be a good time to buy a different machine while the extra horsepower could be a deal.

My personal experience with this is.  I think I have a new machine that is Downlabeled.  I am not sure in writing yet.  but the point I would like to make is it can really go almost (and I stress almost) unnoticable under normal snowfalls,  like 8 inch or below.  

However when you get into like a foot or more.  The display of the horsepower  is incredable.  I am running a labeled 8.5 tec that seems to run like a 11/12 minimum.  I stated this before a lot of this was brought up. I am no expert, but I didn't fall off a tree yesterday either. 

And if it is true .  It is a great advantage,  because the machine doesn't tear itself apart under normal snowfalls,  you know I am not rocking and rolling coming up to the line at a drag race,  but when it needs the extra power, it doesn't hesitate.  I almost feel I bought two machines  for the price of 1 actually 2 for the price of 2/3 because of it being a no frills machine , as that is a model that they sold at home depot and discounted the heck out of it/

Ben07

hi guys and girls (Paula, Sherri any others im unaware of)

Marshall did a good thing actually making the call to the briggs boys...ive done that but havent gotten a return on my calls.

and Marc.you made some very good points about the way this new generation of snowblowers should be sold.

with this new  briggs engine on the snappers that we sell ,horsepower is no longer an issue.

we test every one on the lawn and some times they are blowing in snow thats a foot deeper that the bucket.

and you never even hear the engine strain,governor dosent even kick in.

power no prob.

it now is the rest of the machine.

how easy will it turn ...

good weight balance...

is the headlight any good...

are the handlebars flimsy or wrong height,how about adjustable height.

does it shift easy.

are repairs like belts and bushings very hard or do you spend an hour and a half putting an impeller belt in.

this is the stuff that should now be an issue.

you may have come up with a good idea Marc...well done  

later chris

I have to disagree with the idea of selling a 12 hp engine to a consumer and labeling it 33 percent lower.  That is rediculous and what they are going to find out is it actually is a safety issue.  All somebody has to do is get hurt or hurt someone when using one of these downlabeled things and the Lawyers will clean house,  Wether it is true or warranted or not.  Leagally they will be liable.  If people can make millions of dollars on McDonalds coffee being too hot,  when all coffee has been server that way for hundreds of years  , got to make you think it is possable.

Then to boot have workers use a misbadged machine on the job and get hurt  OSHA will have a field day.

Ben07