Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

TomP I understand your decision, no problem there, I think I would have done the same thing. That's why I said consumers make their purchase partly on the advertized horsepower of the engine.  I just didn't want  you to think I in any way implying you on my next post.  By the way you have been a great help in this thread so thanks for that also. 

Ben07

Hi Guys !

Not so fast!!

The price differential between machines may be warranted after all! Lets take a look at one difference between the Simplicity 1170E and 1280E. Handwarmers are optional on the 1170E and standard on the 1280E. How much is a hand warmer? Couldn't find the part# for the Simplicity in time for this post(I will later) but I did find it for the Ariens. Part Number 07532900 listed at $65.12 PER SIDE. Tires are bigger on the 1280E as compared to the 1170E as well. Are there other less obvious differences that account for the price difference? Not sure- The point is we have to stop looking at the engine as the only factor in pricing strategy.

Marc 

mml4 wrote:

Marc,

I don't think the value added features are the point. Everyone is looking for something different. Lets say someone does not want handwarmers, and does not care about the tire size. But their main and only concern was available power. If they pay more for the power because the machines are badged the way they seem to be, they are being deceived.

If the engines are the same, they shoud be badged the same. No question.

There can be other warranty factors. But not very likley.

Marc,

This is an extremely interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

robmints wrote:

Marc I got to help Rob Drive this home.  It is understood that there in some cases be warranted a price varience that is justified by the options.  BUT STILL THE CUSTOMER IS BASING PART OF HIS DECISION ON THE ADVERTIZED HORSEPOWER. 

How is a customer going to really know the hidden HP if we cannot find it in here with enthusiasts and experts,  and teamwork, and looking at it from both sides. etc etc. 

If we/you all get off on this itty bitty tangent of sometimes it is justified, then we may as well play a game of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" when making a purchase.  and if we ignor it than we are truly wearing a blind fold.  I suggest that we stick with what the horsepower of the engine really is compared to what it is advertized as. and granted you could be ripped off on unscaved or get a better deal than you think purchasing it blindly.  That's been gone thru,  but is  not the root issue. 

And Marc you are one of the best guys inhere, and I know you are always and only looking at if from both sides to be fair and thorough,  But I think this thread is beyond that point.  For instance it is getting so good that it has attracted new viewers, and they weren't afraid to post in the middle of it all , but commented that they had to read a lot to catch-up.  Why did they have to read a lot is because most all of us have been covering the option complication mixed in with the Horsepower .  Why don't we start a new thread entitled "What is the true horsepower of your engine"  then those that are interested in that can go there, and anybody who wants to talk about the whole conglomerate of issues mixed together can spin that around all they want in here, and we will see where the real conversation/problem solving will be.

In all due respect Ben07

Pls feel free to P M me if I am out of line here.   I am just tired of this issue being dragged thru  the mud most of the time because it is hard enough solving the horsepower issue on it's own.  and aparently all the manufacturers made it difficult to do simultaneously with the timing of when the emissions people have to be in full swing.   What a coincidence HUH?

Coincidence that none of these problems were around for like 60 years.  Yeah Right!!!

"I am just tired of this issue being dragged thru  the mud most of the time"

Explain that to me please, what do you mean?

Marshall wrote:

Marshal
The intermixing of the cost and or justification of options on the machine when you as a consumer are being told what they are, but the thing you are not being told is the actual horsepower,  it can be a hidden element  .. as example drift cutters are not a hidden element.  so why mix it in with the actual problem being  false advertized horsepower,  the other options are not being advertized falsly  but the horsepower is  so the issue is the actual horsepower   not the options

Ben07

Ok, that's what I thought you meant, just wanted to be sure.

But, different people look at things in different ways Ben. I don't know if I would call it dragging this issue through the mud but instead just expressing different ways they choose to think about it for whatever reason.

On a nother note, call me stubborn, skeptical, or just someone thinking we don't have the whole complete story for some reason but, I am still not 100% convinced that all of these engines put out identicle HP and Torque. I'm not disputing anything told anyone or anything posted either. From all we have seen, It sure looks that way! I'm just pig headed I guess. LOL

Marshall wrote:

Marshall if you review my edit of your quote in the above.  I agree with you and feel the same way.  I believe we are all in the same ball-park.  And I would caution that saying all of these engines are mis-badged is not a way of solving it.  If we find some engines are badged correctly, well that does not prove anything, because that is what they are suppose to be doing.  It is the cases where they are falsly advertized.  And in the cases that people have been investigating it seems to go a step further.  They don't mistate it once, like it could be an error or something.  They are so bold and blatent they don't worry about putting all kind of levels on it.   (i.e. 9hp same as a 10,10.5, 11 etc) 

Even if it is now not an epidemic, the fox still has the keys to the hen house.  You are saying you are a skeptic, well so am I  but what I am worrying about is the foxs' appetite. (and his friends appetite's, this could establish precedent for all types of products)

Ben07 

OK guys, I just got off the hook with Briggs & Stratton in Milwaukee Wi.

The tech I spoke with in the engine department told me that it is entirely possible that there are engines out there rated at 12 HP and labled 9HP!

I pushed him on it further, he kept to his story and said yes, downlabling is something that is done. He defended it by saying you get more than you paid for. I pressed him saying that I had to buy more machine than I wanted to get 12HP. I told him I wanted a smaller frame with more HP and could have received that for less money than I spent. He thought about it and hesitantly agreed with me. I did not speak of any engines other than the 20G414011E1 snow engines.

I am now convinced.