Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

hi folks .

about a month ago i had a customer come in with a mtd snowblower. it was an older model that was built pretty well ,not a high end machine but better than a new mtd.

anyway his engine was toast.

he asked me for a good economical engine replacement.

our briggs intec 11 horse unit goes for 780 cdn. installed complete with electric start.

this is the engine i prefer .

it is an older machine so he asked me if we had anything else.

of course we do ,new complete tecumseh 11 horse Lhead.no electric start installed for 650 cdn.

thats the one he picked.

used it once and guess what...poof  or boom more like it.

lost its internals all over the yard.

ive never seen one so messy.

removed it ,did a failure analysis and guess what else.

suspected cause of con rod failure was insufficient clearance to the main.

ive never seen it before but it is in the book and me and the guy from technical service went right to it.

the engine will fail within 2 hours when there is insufficient clearance .

wasnt oil related at all.no other visable wear in the engine .

ill keep you updated on the replacement of the shortblock.

later chris

I'm glad to have an Intec.Only time will tell how they stand up in blowers.I like to press mine hard.It seems to like it.

Hi Chris!

Could you do a comparison of the Briggs and Tecumseh and indicate why your preference is Briggs.

In addition it appears that the guys on this board that have the new OHV Briggs engines don't mention the surging or exhaust popping that the Tecumseh owners do. Is that just the way the posts have gone on this board or is the Briggs carburetor doing a better job and if so why?

Thanks,

Marc 

Bump

mml4 wrote:
I'm staying out of this one!  :)

Pete

Gilsons wrote:

LOL....

C

Pete and Chris-

The questions were posed in the spirit of a student asking a teacher. My son is buying a house and the local OPE shop is a Simplicity dealer amongst other brands. Since I have no experience with the new OHV Briggs I thought I would ask an expert. Perhaps you could pm me an answer if you don't wish to post publicly. I am especially interested in the comparison of Briggs and Tecumseh carburetion. 

Not looking to start or continue a controversy,

Marc

 Pete and Chris,

                     Please postttttttttttttttttt  the difference!   !    !

Don't keep it a secret,

                                               Fred   

Hey, there's nothing wrong with good old debate wars going on. We just try to avoid the people that come here to bash and watch the ones that get too personal.

Let her rip..........I'll get some popcorn and a brewski.    

I was having some fun with Pete not trying to anger anyone.  The discussion and debate about the durability of Tec engines has been raised many time over the years, the subject has been beat to death really.

I like them and would buy a machine with one.  I like Briggs motors also.  That is my opinion on the topic and beyond that would refer to the Pros like Chris and Lint.

C

okay here you go...

based on my own personal experience ,which goes right into these engines. i will try to remain objective and discuss the differences in a pro and con kind of way.

the briggs is about 150 dollars more in canadian dollars anyway  and around here,not sure of difference at your local.

the briggs is " new  technology " its basically a completley new engine and from the very design plans the engineers knew they were building an emmissions engine. this is why it actullay runs as well as it does with todays gas and it has none of the hiccupps associated with todays gas and non adjustable carbs.

the tecumseh engines that im familliar with ( and i have sold and serviced a great deal of new ones ) will start and run pretty good for an old design of engine  that was developed in the early 60s.yes there have been many advance since its beginning but basically its old ...very old. however a good deal of those early engines are still running strong.and they will continue to do so.

its a tried and true design.those engines were never designed in any way to be emmission engines and you have to give credit to tecumseh for being able to get it to run as good as it does.and many never experience problems at all.

there have been some connecting rod issues with the tecumseh engines and a lot of it is operator error,low oil wrong oil governor missadjustment and so on.

there are a few cases where there is actually somthing wrong from the factory,if an engine fails due to a rod toss in less than 2 hours of use then it is caused by insufficient clearance to the crank.

if the engine gets to about the 10 hour mark and the rod fails then there was excessive clearance.

if you get past these hours of use then you can say you have a good engine.

i regularly get to work on upwards of perhaps 250 snowblowers a season ,and more each year (i guess im that good).and have seen only 1 tecumseh that went in less than 2 hours and 2 engines that went at around the 10 hour mark.

they all were covered under warranty.

the 2 engines that went with 10 or so hours were not what i would have repaired under warranty at one time.when the con rod is burnt where it breaks it usually means lack of lubrication.but tecumseh says fix them so i did but i saved the pieces and showed the customers .as soon as they look at the parts they know i know  and thats all there is said.

as far as the briggs engine goes ,its basically a made in japan design built in the states and it works  good.

we have no personal service issues with this engine. never saw any problems with it.we sold 12 new snappers with this engine and have no complaints at all.have also sold this as a replacement for the tecumseh about 15 times and have no reports of problems. i have askes technical service about this and the only ones that have any issues are installed on sears units,there is somthing with the muffler that will allow snow to melt after the engine is shutoff and stored and possibly enter the muffler and refreese ,this blocks the exhaust and it wont start. havent seen this only heard about it sears unit has a different spec exhaust.

as far as the horsepower and torque war goes.i have to say from experience that the briggs wins no problem.

i know that the actual numbers say that they are really even but when you use 2 identical machines with each engine the briggs will outperform with a noticible difference.

there is somthing about the powercurve that realy does help when you are in 2 feet of snow.

the briggs never seems like it is straining to do the job.

that being the case if you never see 2 feet of snow you will seldom get the chance to know about the briggs.

the carbs on the tecumseh engines are a sore spot with a lot of mechanics.

1 shot of gas thats a little old and it has to come off there is now way you can do a proper tune up without removing it and cleaning.it.

why is this ...its my own opinion that in its design which is from a long time ago when gas was a good thing.the carbs had many different materials in there makeup.

the body is aluminum,the float is brass,the bowl is some kind of tin.there are steel welch plugs ,.brass metering tubes and nozzels and some other stuff were not sure what it is made of.   add todays gas with its zillion chemicals and the alcohol,dont forget that there is up to 10% alcohol in its makup.and thats not the good kind either.the alcohol in it is agressive and it draws moisture right out of the air.this is what gives the problems with BAD gas it eats up all the dissimilar metals in the carb there are actulally chemical reactions taking place in there that you cant see ,you just know it happened when your snowblower wont go when you need it.

does the briggs have this problem...have no idea never saw the carb on the briggs engine.yup we have not done a thing to them except change oil and plugs.thats it.

we dont make any service dollars on the briggs engines ...

and we make lots on servicing the tecumseh.

but whose fault is that really. when tecumseh originally designed that engine gasoline was not an issue it even had LEAD in it. good for engines ...bad for us. nobody knew that today there would be over 300 chemicals in the makeup of our fuel .

these engines didnt have any problems with carbs until the fuel started to change .

then you get people that dont really have the knowhow to do a proper job cleaning their carbs and adjusting governors.

this i beleive is where another story of connecting rod issues starts.

mess up the carb and the engine is gonna go.

folks here ask questions and can then do a proper job on the carb and governor adjustment .

i guess it all comes down to information and what you do with it.

time will tell if the briggs lasts 40 years like the tecumseh ar if it gets tossed in 10.

i hope i helped a little .

later chris        

snowshoveler wrote:

Great information.  That's what makes all the difference in the engine.  Designed for "present day" not decades ago. I wish there was some sort of aftermarket carburetor designed for snowblowers that would fit on a Tecumseh engine.  I bet it would solve many problems.  It also shows just how much Tecumseh really profits on these engines.  They just keep giving consumers the same tired design.  Actually not true, they updated them with electronic ignition and did away with points. 

Briggs carbs? Tecumeh carbs? Which are superior?
I dont think either one of them should pat theirselves on the back too hard.
In my area....I dont work on a lot of the 2-stage blowers with briggs engines....the primary machines for me are single-stage residential blowers. I dont have a lot of problems with tecumseh carbs on them. I have a lot more issues with Toro r-tek carbs....than with tecumseh carbs. But thats another kettle of fish.

But......when summer rolls around....I get a large dose of Briggs carb problems. Again...I deal primarily with smaller (10 hp and less) residential units. I see tons of Quantam based engines.
One disturbing problem that I have run across with Briggs carbs is float level problems.
Briggs uses a cast plastic float that is non-adjustable. One problem with that system is that the material that briggs uses for its seats...has a nasty habit of "swelling" which in turn causes the float level too change.
As the seat swells it changes the fuel level in the bowl too drop and the machines too run leaner.  (Harder restarts, etc.) The seat can swell so much...that it can change the angle of the float by as much as 20 degrees? (thats a guess.)
But.... in the the last couple of years...I have discovered an even more nasty problem. (No thanks too Briggs tech support!)
It seem that when the carbs were cast and the passage that contains the seat (#398188) was drilled too deep.
Now that may not seem like a big deal.....but when I put in a new seat and hold the carb upside down too check the float level, the float will touch the bottom of the carb casting. (Causing an extremely rich condition...if it shuts off the fuel at all!) Leaky carb ring any bells? Puffs of black smoke on start up?
Oh, well. Take the bic lighter and heat up the area around the needle tang and bend it too adjust the carb. It works....so do it...but dont ask briggs too make an adjustable tang.
I asked Briggs tech support if they had a problem with this sort of thing.....4 years ago! (It seemed too me that it started with the OHV Quantams.)
Finally, at the end of last season, I worked my way up too an engineer in briggs and he admitted that he has had some "reports" of the problem. (I see 20-40 of these things in a season.)
Question: Well, what are you guys doing about it ? And what should I be doing about it?
Answer: Nothing and replace the carb.
Conclusion: It's really hard too pick a side too cheer for.

well Lint ...

i have this hammer .... and it can cure any carb problems.

quantum engines ..ill be happy when they finally learn that those arent a good idea.they have to learn that they cant cheat.they have to build real new engines to pass the emissions regulations.just cobbeling up old stuff aint gonna make any customers happy.

 later chris

Thanks to Lint and Snowshoveler for the comprehensive answer. Just to clarify if you don't mind-Do the snow Intek engines and the Quantums use the same carbs? Do the Snow Intek's use a plastic molded float?  

Thanks for the answers guys,

Marc

have no idea whats inside an intek snow engine carb.could be anything wierd in there .but whatever it is it works

havent had any gummy dirty carb issues at all.thats why i dont know whats in there.

folks get kind of spooked when you pull there carb just cause your curious

later chris  

Good summary Snowshoveler. Beween that and my comments on the prior thread I'm not wasting any more keystrokes on the topic.

Pete

The Briggs Quantum motors I've seen were all vertical shaft L-heads and bore no resemblance at all to the larger OHV horizontal shaft Intek snow motors. They're a lower end motor mostly for push mowers I think.   I doubt they share any parts at all.   -Bob

Since Briggs & Stratton is relatively new to the snowblower engine market, its no small wonder that not many engines are seen with problems because there plain aren't that many B&S engines out there in service. In comparisonthere are MANY MANY more Tecumsehs out there, so by shear numbers, you will hear of more Tecumseh problems! Give B&S engines a few years more in actual service & then draw some conclusions.

I'm not doubting the reliability of the Briggs, just trying to keep things in perspective...

Marty

buttlint wrote:

What sort of issues with Toro R-tek carbs? What should I be on the lookout for? Thanks.

AZ

AZ
The early model r-tek carbs had a problems with surging. I wouldnt really call it a problem...just more of an irritation too customers with good hearing.
(Toro solved that with a throttle plate modification.)
The next problem that came up were twisted floats throwing off the float level. (leaking carbs) The floats are made of cork (old lawnboy hangover) and they have a brass arm that controls the operatiion of the needle and the seat. ( the tang ) They seem kind of flimsey too me...but once they are adjusted properly....they seem too work ok.
Another problem that they have is the material that the tip of the needle is made of. Toro admits that they deteriorate way too early and I really dont know if they have solved it or not. (they leaks)
Then there is this winters major "cluster" that really hit home for us in Southeastern lower Michigan. Major ice build up in the venturi of the carb, and in some cases ice holding the throttle in the wide open position.
Nobody will directly attribute that too a carb issue...it was more of a case of all the wrong conditions combining at just the right time. But it raises the question: What would have happened if the carb were made of aluminum instead of plastic? Would aluminum have retained more heat and eased the situation? Personally, I doubt it.....but there are others that can make a strong case saying the opposite.
But.....dont panic on that issue....It was freak problem. Toro got a record number of calls and emails when that happened. (That happened in the storm that dumped 12" in the midwest a couple of weeks ago.) They tracked the complaints by area codes.....Chicago had zero complaints....and Detroit had hundreds of calls. (Same storm system...different local conditions.) Dealers around here had mucho returns and refunds on new units the day of that storm......while other areas of the midwest had no problems at all. I had at least 20 units in the shop that day...and other dealers had none. When Toro starting seeing the calls and complaints, it really snapped their heads back and they claim they sent factory hotshots out in the field so that they could see first hand what was happening. (Sounds more like PR too me?) The open spaces on the back of the machine is the main culprit of that situation.... allowing snow too enter the engine compartment and plug up the works. (They are promising a new design in the future.)
Other problems with plastic carbs....plastilite screws holding on the float bowl. (Be real careful tighening them down or you can pull the theads out )
Some bowls have a casting flaw on the mating surface that allows leaks.
I believe that the plastic warps in some cases...but my evidence might be a little weak too support  that scene.
Brass throttle and choke plates arent held very securely by the plastic thottle and choke shafts. Choke plates just fall out and are too large too pass thru the venturi....but throttle plates can easily be sucked into the cylinder and do some major damage.
Other than that....
(Toro corperate assassins are on their way too my house as we speak.)

buttlint wrote:

LOL      N/P Easy targets They will be dressed in bright red.

Lint,

Thanks for the heads-up. During that storm I was mindful of snow trying to build up on the back of the machine, and kept clearing it off. At times, I noticed what I considered minor surging, but didn't quite know what to make of it since this is the only 2-stroke I've ever owned. The fuel was low at that time, and after refilling it did not occur again.

AZ