Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

hi folks .

about a month ago i had a customer come in with a mtd snowblower. it was an older model that was built pretty well ,not a high end machine but better than a new mtd.

anyway his engine was toast.

he asked me for a good economical engine replacement.

our briggs intec 11 horse unit goes for 780 cdn. installed complete with electric start.

this is the engine i prefer .

it is an older machine so he asked me if we had anything else.

of course we do ,new complete tecumseh 11 horse Lhead.no electric start installed for 650 cdn.

thats the one he picked.

used it once and guess what...poof  or boom more like it.

lost its internals all over the yard.

ive never seen one so messy.

removed it ,did a failure analysis and guess what else.

suspected cause of con rod failure was insufficient clearance to the main.

ive never seen it before but it is in the book and me and the guy from technical service went right to it.

the engine will fail within 2 hours when there is insufficient clearance .

wasnt oil related at all.no other visable wear in the engine .

ill keep you updated on the replacement of the shortblock.

later chris

snowshoveler wrote:

Great information.  That's what makes all the difference in the engine.  Designed for "present day" not decades ago. I wish there was some sort of aftermarket carburetor designed for snowblowers that would fit on a Tecumseh engine.  I bet it would solve many problems.  It also shows just how much Tecumseh really profits on these engines.  They just keep giving consumers the same tired design.  Actually not true, they updated them with electronic ignition and did away with points. 

Briggs carbs? Tecumeh carbs? Which are superior?
I dont think either one of them should pat theirselves on the back too hard.
In my area....I dont work on a lot of the 2-stage blowers with briggs engines....the primary machines for me are single-stage residential blowers. I dont have a lot of problems with tecumseh carbs on them. I have a lot more issues with Toro r-tek carbs....than with tecumseh carbs. But thats another kettle of fish.

But......when summer rolls around....I get a large dose of Briggs carb problems. Again...I deal primarily with smaller (10 hp and less) residential units. I see tons of Quantam based engines.
One disturbing problem that I have run across with Briggs carbs is float level problems.
Briggs uses a cast plastic float that is non-adjustable. One problem with that system is that the material that briggs uses for its seats...has a nasty habit of "swelling" which in turn causes the float level too change.
As the seat swells it changes the fuel level in the bowl too drop and the machines too run leaner.  (Harder restarts, etc.) The seat can swell so much...that it can change the angle of the float by as much as 20 degrees? (thats a guess.)
But.... in the the last couple of years...I have discovered an even more nasty problem. (No thanks too Briggs tech support!)
It seem that when the carbs were cast and the passage that contains the seat (#398188) was drilled too deep.
Now that may not seem like a big deal.....but when I put in a new seat and hold the carb upside down too check the float level, the float will touch the bottom of the carb casting. (Causing an extremely rich condition...if it shuts off the fuel at all!) Leaky carb ring any bells? Puffs of black smoke on start up?
Oh, well. Take the bic lighter and heat up the area around the needle tang and bend it too adjust the carb. It works....so do it...but dont ask briggs too make an adjustable tang.
I asked Briggs tech support if they had a problem with this sort of thing.....4 years ago! (It seemed too me that it started with the OHV Quantams.)
Finally, at the end of last season, I worked my way up too an engineer in briggs and he admitted that he has had some "reports" of the problem. (I see 20-40 of these things in a season.)
Question: Well, what are you guys doing about it ? And what should I be doing about it?
Answer: Nothing and replace the carb.
Conclusion: It's really hard too pick a side too cheer for.

well Lint ...

i have this hammer .... and it can cure any carb problems.

quantum engines ..ill be happy when they finally learn that those arent a good idea.they have to learn that they cant cheat.they have to build real new engines to pass the emissions regulations.just cobbeling up old stuff aint gonna make any customers happy.

 later chris

Thanks to Lint and Snowshoveler for the comprehensive answer. Just to clarify if you don't mind-Do the snow Intek engines and the Quantums use the same carbs? Do the Snow Intek's use a plastic molded float?  

Thanks for the answers guys,

Marc

have no idea whats inside an intek snow engine carb.could be anything wierd in there .but whatever it is it works

havent had any gummy dirty carb issues at all.thats why i dont know whats in there.

folks get kind of spooked when you pull there carb just cause your curious

later chris  

Good summary Snowshoveler. Beween that and my comments on the prior thread I'm not wasting any more keystrokes on the topic.

Pete

The Briggs Quantum motors I've seen were all vertical shaft L-heads and bore no resemblance at all to the larger OHV horizontal shaft Intek snow motors. They're a lower end motor mostly for push mowers I think.   I doubt they share any parts at all.   -Bob

Since Briggs & Stratton is relatively new to the snowblower engine market, its no small wonder that not many engines are seen with problems because there plain aren't that many B&S engines out there in service. In comparisonthere are MANY MANY more Tecumsehs out there, so by shear numbers, you will hear of more Tecumseh problems! Give B&S engines a few years more in actual service & then draw some conclusions.

I'm not doubting the reliability of the Briggs, just trying to keep things in perspective...

Marty

buttlint wrote:

What sort of issues with Toro R-tek carbs? What should I be on the lookout for? Thanks.

AZ

AZ
The early model r-tek carbs had a problems with surging. I wouldnt really call it a problem...just more of an irritation too customers with good hearing.
(Toro solved that with a throttle plate modification.)
The next problem that came up were twisted floats throwing off the float level. (leaking carbs) The floats are made of cork (old lawnboy hangover) and they have a brass arm that controls the operatiion of the needle and the seat. ( the tang ) They seem kind of flimsey too me...but once they are adjusted properly....they seem too work ok.
Another problem that they have is the material that the tip of the needle is made of. Toro admits that they deteriorate way too early and I really dont know if they have solved it or not. (they leaks)
Then there is this winters major "cluster" that really hit home for us in Southeastern lower Michigan. Major ice build up in the venturi of the carb, and in some cases ice holding the throttle in the wide open position.
Nobody will directly attribute that too a carb issue...it was more of a case of all the wrong conditions combining at just the right time. But it raises the question: What would have happened if the carb were made of aluminum instead of plastic? Would aluminum have retained more heat and eased the situation? Personally, I doubt it.....but there are others that can make a strong case saying the opposite.
But.....dont panic on that issue....It was freak problem. Toro got a record number of calls and emails when that happened. (That happened in the storm that dumped 12" in the midwest a couple of weeks ago.) They tracked the complaints by area codes.....Chicago had zero complaints....and Detroit had hundreds of calls. (Same storm system...different local conditions.) Dealers around here had mucho returns and refunds on new units the day of that storm......while other areas of the midwest had no problems at all. I had at least 20 units in the shop that day...and other dealers had none. When Toro starting seeing the calls and complaints, it really snapped their heads back and they claim they sent factory hotshots out in the field so that they could see first hand what was happening. (Sounds more like PR too me?) The open spaces on the back of the machine is the main culprit of that situation.... allowing snow too enter the engine compartment and plug up the works. (They are promising a new design in the future.)
Other problems with plastic carbs....plastilite screws holding on the float bowl. (Be real careful tighening them down or you can pull the theads out )
Some bowls have a casting flaw on the mating surface that allows leaks.
I believe that the plastic warps in some cases...but my evidence might be a little weak too support  that scene.
Brass throttle and choke plates arent held very securely by the plastic thottle and choke shafts. Choke plates just fall out and are too large too pass thru the venturi....but throttle plates can easily be sucked into the cylinder and do some major damage.
Other than that....
(Toro corperate assassins are on their way too my house as we speak.)