Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I changed the engine oil in a Toro 421Q snowblower.  First time at 2.5 hours, then again at 5 hours, per the manual recommendation.  I noticed both times there are glitter specs in the oil.  The engine is a Loncin 163cc engine.  Is it normal to continue seeing glitter specs at the second oil change? 

My other engine is a Honda GX340 which I changed the oil a couple times since new and did not see any glitter. 

"To me, the gunk and rust sounds like classic ethanol problems. The alcohol collects moisture and that probably causes the rust. The gunk residue is also pretty common when ethanol gas is used."

I doubt it. 

Not to go off topic, but the ethanol issue is way over-blown and from my experience, ethanol is taking the rap for contaminated fuel. 

Think about it.  If 10% ethanol was as bad as some people claim it is, every second vehicle on the road would be out of commission due to fuel issues.   Bad gas is far more of a problem than ethanol.  Any problems I've had with fuel is water/dirt in it coming right from the pump.  In all of my years using/working on multitudes of machines, and opening up carbs, I've yet to come across any obvious deterioration caused by ethanol. 

CharlesW wrote:

I'm trying to grasp how rust could be formed if the alcohol in the ethanol collects moisture.  If the alcohol is hydroscopic and absorbs the moisture, that deprives rust of moisture, how does rust continue to form? It's like starting a fire, you need three things to get it started and keep going.

Anyways, a little off topic too, but until we know more of the plausible root cause(s), I wouldn't want to place the blame on ethanol and/or Chinese engines.  As much as I hate losing our jobs to another country that is more than willing to do it at a fraction of what we demand here, there are people here who made short-sighted decisions to outsource overseas to appease investors and stockholders quarterly reports.  Don't blame the Chinese, they have as much drive as us progressing through the Industrial revolution in the US years ago.  Instead of blaming, how about a restrospective look at our spending habits and penchant for cheap consumables?  If you want to buy products cheap at discount stores, how many Americans are willing to produce it?

Sorry to get off topic and going political.  But every problem has multi faceted root causes.  I've done my fair share of failure analysis and if anyone think they found a smoking gun without data to back it up, they're just a clown with an opinion.  Sorry, but not all white papers are unbiased truth.  They can be bought and sold just like any fiction books out there.

Off my soapbox now.  Back to our regular topic.  :)

For Borat and aa335.
While I don't really understand everything I read on the subject, it seems like an awful lot of people have misgivings about ethanol blended fuel.
The article quoted below is just one example. You can find literally hundreds that say basically the same thing.

Buried in there is an explanation as to how the alcohol and water will cause the rust problem.

As far as the ethanol boosters claim that it has no ill effects on modern day vehicles, check out the 2006-2008 Lexus recall for ethanol corrosion of fuel systems.
2006-2008 probably could be considered a fairly modern day vehicle.

Anyway, here's part of the article I was referring to.

Water Attraction

Pure ethanol has a strong ability to absorb water from the atmosphere around it. This is true also of the blends made from pure ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol has such a strong attraction to water that chemical producers cannot even sell 100% pure ethanol - it is always 99.8% or less, because there will always be at least a tiny bit of water. As you may expect, attraction of water is an even bigger problem for marine users of E10-E85 than it is for on-road drivers.

When water accumulates in a fuel or storage tank, it sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than fuel. It then contributes to a whole host of fuel problems and issues, which can be summarized here:

Breeding Ground for Microbes

Microbes like bacteria and fungi all need accumulated water in order to grow and thrive in a fuel storage tank. If an infestation takes hold, problems with corrosion, filter plugging and reduction in fuel quality can follow. However, ethanol blends, like gasoline, tend to be used quicker than stored diesel fuels, so this is not so much of a problem in actual practice.

Phase Separation

Phase Separation means the ethanol 'phase' separates from the gasoline 'phase' and results in two layers of two different compounds, instead of a homogenous mixture of gasoline and ethanol. At this point the ethanol will sink below the gasoline phase and mix with any more accumulated water, giving an ethanol-water phase mixture.

Loss of Octane

When ethanol separates from gasoline, it causes a loss of 2-4 octane points in the fuel mixture; in effect, as it separates, it drags the octane value of the gasoline. An 87-octane fuel that separates can have its octane rating drop to 83-84, which is unsatisfactory for most vehicles and will cause performance issues.

Potential for Equipment Damage

An ethanol blend that has separated will have the ethanol and water mixture settled at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel line is. The fuel line potentially can suck this mixture up into the combustion chamber, where it will burn like an overly lean mixture (lean = not enough gasoline). Because it is not mostly gasoline now, burning this kind of fuel gives real potential for valve damage. This becomes an expensive proposition.

Oxidation and Deposit Buildup

Water is one of the impurities that will accelerate oxidation reactions in any petroleum-based fuel, whether gasoline, diesel, biodiesel or ethanol blends. Oxidation reactions are responsible for fuel stratification and the fallout of heavy ends from the fuel mixture. These heavy fuels can build up in the bottom of a fuel storage tank, and when they are injected as fuel, they do not burn like pure fuel but will leave deposits in all parts of the combustion system - combustion chamber, valves and fuel injectors. At best, you get raised emissions to the catalytic convertor, rough running and poor engine performance, while at worst you get a drop in mileage.

Ethanol Solvency

Boat owners in the northeast can readily testify how ethanol blends up to E85 attach and dissolve rubber and plastic parts, even fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol has always been an excellent solvent and unfortunately this is not a good thing for engines and fuel delivery systems which rely on rubber and plastic parts for their function. Repeated exposure over time will cause the plastic resigns to dissolve in the ethanol; they subsequently build up as new deposits on valves, causing the same kind of performance issues as carbon deposits can.

Where did you find this article?  It applies at best to large fuel storage tanks or to long term storage in warm weather of ethanol and gasoline formulations.  This does not apply to OPE or automotive applications where the fuel is used daily, weekly or monthly.  If you are worried about water in your fuel I was told in the 70s to buy fuel from the busiest gas station and never to buy fuel when the gas station storage tanks are being filled.  This advice applies today as well.  The Lexus recall was due to Toyota selecting the wrong aluminum alloy tubing to use for the fuel lines.

fleetfoot wrote:
Good advice.
I happen to feel that avoiding ethanol if at all possible is also good advice.
If it weren't for all the government subsidies and mandates, they wouldn't even be able to sell it.
Wait till the 15% blends hit the market.
 I think I have seen several posts where you support ethanol and that's certainly your right.
You believe in it, I don't.
You can use it, I won't. At least not until the government forces me to.

I suppose that if the engine in your Toro has aluminum cyl. walls and not a steel sleeve.  That you might be seeing filings from break in.  Aluminum is also lighter in color and would be more obvious in the oil than steel.
Just a thought.

I do not support the use of ethanol.  It is not economically viable as it is currently being produced (corn based) and may never be economically viable.  I think that in many cases problems are attributed to ethanol without any data or critical thinking to support it i.e. excessive mileage reduction, small engine carburetor problems, etc.

jrtrebor wrote:
That might be the case.  The filings are light silver in color.

no matter which material it is steel or aluminum it will pretty much look the same when it is that fine.  If you are concerned, and I wouldn't be at this point you can send a sample of the oil to Blackstone labs for testing and they will give you a comprehensive report and even tell you if your particular engine is showing more PPM of any of the metals then the norm for that engine.

AA335,

I am sure the glitter coming out of your Toro is just normal and nothing to worry about.  At least you can see it.  If you have gotten 2-stroke engine, you would not have to worry about that glitter and a hassel of oil change. But then again not sure where the glitter goes.