Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I changed the engine oil in a Toro 421Q snowblower.  First time at 2.5 hours, then again at 5 hours, per the manual recommendation.  I noticed both times there are glitter specs in the oil.  The engine is a Loncin 163cc engine.  Is it normal to continue seeing glitter specs at the second oil change? 

My other engine is a Honda GX340 which I changed the oil a couple times since new and did not see any glitter. 

Probably only in Chinese engines.
And unfortunately, I don't mean that as a smartalec answer.
I own the same machine and I didn't see anything in the old oil when I changed mine.

I'm beginning to think our problems with the Chinese engines have just begun.

The two Chinese clones I have (a 196cc Champion and a 208cc Mitsubishi) were some of the cleanest engines I've ever changed oil on.  The Champion engine which I bought last year was amazingly clean.   When I dumped the oil on the initial 5 hour change, I strained the hot oil through a coffee filter.   There was no visible glitter to be seen,  even out in broad day light.  The oil still looked new. 

Regarding the Loncin engine, there might be some residual filings that don't come out with the oil and stick to the bottom of the crank case.  Probably nothing to worry about.   If you want, you could put a couple oz. of gasoline/Varsol into the empty crank case and slosh it around a bit then quickly drain it.  That might be all you need to loosen the stuff off of the bottom.  

No reference to how many or much which would be very difficult to determine or describe.  You may see "specks" for a long time.  I'd tank the oil in a clear jar and see what it looks like in a week or two.

Well, I'm not too overly concerned.  Looks like they're fine enough that they won't be a big issue.  Maybe they'll act as lapping compound to help hone the cylinder smooth.  I'll just change the oil again at +2.5 hours. 

Anyways, I'm glad I switched back to conventional motor oil.  No need to waste synthetic oil trying to flush/purge the metal glitter bits.

Pretty normal as the rings and to some extent the bearings wear in.

CharlesW wrote:
So far, this Chinese engine has performed better than my expectation.  Fuel leaks is fairly minor, I dealt with the problem temporarily until Toro respond with a proper fix.   It could be worse.

aa335 wrote: The 421 has done a great job for me as well.
It's my first single stage machine and so far it has been pretty impressive.
Like you, I have no real complaints about the Chinese engine, no gas leak or any other problems, but I am still not as comfortable with it as I could be.

FWIW, The mechanic at my local dealer told me that other than the carburetor recall, he has not had to work on any of the Toro Chinese engines.
Also, none of the 20 or so 180s he did the recall on was actually leaking when they were brought in.
Just a little more info, the carburetor is removed and if it looks new and pristine inside, it gets a new needle only. If the carburetor has gunk, rust. or shavings in it, a new carburetor is installed.

To me, the gunk and rust sounds like classic ethanol problems. The alcohol collects moisture and that probably causes the rust. The gunk residue is also pretty common when ethanol gas is used.
I can still buy "pure" gas and I avoid ethanol blends in everything I own.

trouts2 wrote:
I was just reporting what I saw and see if anyone else has similar observations.  I guess I could go through the trouble of quantifying the metal glitter via RMS, pmm, or % weight, but most of the audience here wouldn't really care.

I'll change the oil again +2.5 hours and post what I found then.  Hopefully, it should be glitter free by the third oil change.

nothing to worry about, completey normal.....l would say u could easly see "glitter" for the next 2-3 oil changes. and yes the "glitter" will stick to the crank case so make sure the engine runs for a good ten mins then change right away while still hot. l would change it at least one more time before the season out.

"To me, the gunk and rust sounds like classic ethanol problems. The alcohol collects moisture and that probably causes the rust. The gunk residue is also pretty common when ethanol gas is used."

I doubt it. 

Not to go off topic, but the ethanol issue is way over-blown and from my experience, ethanol is taking the rap for contaminated fuel. 

Think about it.  If 10% ethanol was as bad as some people claim it is, every second vehicle on the road would be out of commission due to fuel issues.   Bad gas is far more of a problem than ethanol.  Any problems I've had with fuel is water/dirt in it coming right from the pump.  In all of my years using/working on multitudes of machines, and opening up carbs, I've yet to come across any obvious deterioration caused by ethanol. 

CharlesW wrote:

I'm trying to grasp how rust could be formed if the alcohol in the ethanol collects moisture.  If the alcohol is hydroscopic and absorbs the moisture, that deprives rust of moisture, how does rust continue to form? It's like starting a fire, you need three things to get it started and keep going.

Anyways, a little off topic too, but until we know more of the plausible root cause(s), I wouldn't want to place the blame on ethanol and/or Chinese engines.  As much as I hate losing our jobs to another country that is more than willing to do it at a fraction of what we demand here, there are people here who made short-sighted decisions to outsource overseas to appease investors and stockholders quarterly reports.  Don't blame the Chinese, they have as much drive as us progressing through the Industrial revolution in the US years ago.  Instead of blaming, how about a restrospective look at our spending habits and penchant for cheap consumables?  If you want to buy products cheap at discount stores, how many Americans are willing to produce it?

Sorry to get off topic and going political.  But every problem has multi faceted root causes.  I've done my fair share of failure analysis and if anyone think they found a smoking gun without data to back it up, they're just a clown with an opinion.  Sorry, but not all white papers are unbiased truth.  They can be bought and sold just like any fiction books out there.

Off my soapbox now.  Back to our regular topic.  :)

For Borat and aa335.
While I don't really understand everything I read on the subject, it seems like an awful lot of people have misgivings about ethanol blended fuel.
The article quoted below is just one example. You can find literally hundreds that say basically the same thing.

Buried in there is an explanation as to how the alcohol and water will cause the rust problem.

As far as the ethanol boosters claim that it has no ill effects on modern day vehicles, check out the 2006-2008 Lexus recall for ethanol corrosion of fuel systems.
2006-2008 probably could be considered a fairly modern day vehicle.

Anyway, here's part of the article I was referring to.

Water Attraction

Pure ethanol has a strong ability to absorb water from the atmosphere around it. This is true also of the blends made from pure ethanol and gasoline. Ethanol has such a strong attraction to water that chemical producers cannot even sell 100% pure ethanol - it is always 99.8% or less, because there will always be at least a tiny bit of water. As you may expect, attraction of water is an even bigger problem for marine users of E10-E85 than it is for on-road drivers.

When water accumulates in a fuel or storage tank, it sinks to the bottom of the tank because water is heavier than fuel. It then contributes to a whole host of fuel problems and issues, which can be summarized here:

Breeding Ground for Microbes

Microbes like bacteria and fungi all need accumulated water in order to grow and thrive in a fuel storage tank. If an infestation takes hold, problems with corrosion, filter plugging and reduction in fuel quality can follow. However, ethanol blends, like gasoline, tend to be used quicker than stored diesel fuels, so this is not so much of a problem in actual practice.

Phase Separation

Phase Separation means the ethanol 'phase' separates from the gasoline 'phase' and results in two layers of two different compounds, instead of a homogenous mixture of gasoline and ethanol. At this point the ethanol will sink below the gasoline phase and mix with any more accumulated water, giving an ethanol-water phase mixture.

Loss of Octane

When ethanol separates from gasoline, it causes a loss of 2-4 octane points in the fuel mixture; in effect, as it separates, it drags the octane value of the gasoline. An 87-octane fuel that separates can have its octane rating drop to 83-84, which is unsatisfactory for most vehicles and will cause performance issues.

Potential for Equipment Damage

An ethanol blend that has separated will have the ethanol and water mixture settled at the bottom of the tank, where the fuel line is. The fuel line potentially can suck this mixture up into the combustion chamber, where it will burn like an overly lean mixture (lean = not enough gasoline). Because it is not mostly gasoline now, burning this kind of fuel gives real potential for valve damage. This becomes an expensive proposition.

Oxidation and Deposit Buildup

Water is one of the impurities that will accelerate oxidation reactions in any petroleum-based fuel, whether gasoline, diesel, biodiesel or ethanol blends. Oxidation reactions are responsible for fuel stratification and the fallout of heavy ends from the fuel mixture. These heavy fuels can build up in the bottom of a fuel storage tank, and when they are injected as fuel, they do not burn like pure fuel but will leave deposits in all parts of the combustion system - combustion chamber, valves and fuel injectors. At best, you get raised emissions to the catalytic convertor, rough running and poor engine performance, while at worst you get a drop in mileage.

Ethanol Solvency

Boat owners in the northeast can readily testify how ethanol blends up to E85 attach and dissolve rubber and plastic parts, even fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol has always been an excellent solvent and unfortunately this is not a good thing for engines and fuel delivery systems which rely on rubber and plastic parts for their function. Repeated exposure over time will cause the plastic resigns to dissolve in the ethanol; they subsequently build up as new deposits on valves, causing the same kind of performance issues as carbon deposits can.

Where did you find this article?  It applies at best to large fuel storage tanks or to long term storage in warm weather of ethanol and gasoline formulations.  This does not apply to OPE or automotive applications where the fuel is used daily, weekly or monthly.  If you are worried about water in your fuel I was told in the 70s to buy fuel from the busiest gas station and never to buy fuel when the gas station storage tanks are being filled.  This advice applies today as well.  The Lexus recall was due to Toyota selecting the wrong aluminum alloy tubing to use for the fuel lines.

fleetfoot wrote:
Good advice.
I happen to feel that avoiding ethanol if at all possible is also good advice.
If it weren't for all the government subsidies and mandates, they wouldn't even be able to sell it.
Wait till the 15% blends hit the market.
 I think I have seen several posts where you support ethanol and that's certainly your right.
You believe in it, I don't.
You can use it, I won't. At least not until the government forces me to.

I suppose that if the engine in your Toro has aluminum cyl. walls and not a steel sleeve.  That you might be seeing filings from break in.  Aluminum is also lighter in color and would be more obvious in the oil than steel.
Just a thought.

I do not support the use of ethanol.  It is not economically viable as it is currently being produced (corn based) and may never be economically viable.  I think that in many cases problems are attributed to ethanol without any data or critical thinking to support it i.e. excessive mileage reduction, small engine carburetor problems, etc.

jrtrebor wrote:
That might be the case.  The filings are light silver in color.

no matter which material it is steel or aluminum it will pretty much look the same when it is that fine.  If you are concerned, and I wouldn't be at this point you can send a sample of the oil to Blackstone labs for testing and they will give you a comprehensive report and even tell you if your particular engine is showing more PPM of any of the metals then the norm for that engine.

AA335,

I am sure the glitter coming out of your Toro is just normal and nothing to worry about.  At least you can see it.  If you have gotten 2-stroke engine, you would not have to worry about that glitter and a hassel of oil change. But then again not sure where the glitter goes.

Yeah, I'm not to worried about it  It does seem odd that i can still see it after second oil change.

So are you done blowing the snow or the wind is going to give you some more work tomorrow?

MN_Runner wrote:
It's done. 

I feel bad for my sister in law as her family lives in Naperville and they don't have a blower. 

fleetfoot wrote:

Exactly. Not only is it bad fuel, it makes zero economic sense on many levels.

Does the glitter stick to a magnet?....

magnetic= iron  (bearings and steel walled cylinders or crankshaft/crank gears)

no sticky means = Aluminum rod or aluminum case material or aluminum cylinder material...

If it is REAL glitter,  It may have came off your hands after touching that stripper at the club.....

Good Luck,

Friiy

friiy wrote:
I'll try to assess the glitter origin after a few more oil changes to diagnose potential problems.  I assume after some use and oil changes, the glitter will be flushed out and won't see anymore new particles.

If the real glitter came from touching stripper at the club, that's a lot glitter and I'm sure I won't have time to post here or snowblow the driveway.  :)  In any case, I have no recollection of such activity, Senator! 

Wasn't me.  Just looked like me. 

I've always like that one!

AA335,

If you don't change your oil so often then you may not see any glitter. If you see glitter later, what are you going to do, ask for your money back? I know you are in love with your 441Q so if it is a true love then you will love that Toro whether she spits more glitter out next time or a year later.

MN_Runner wrote:

We will cross that bridge when we get there. In retrospect I should have a pre-nup stating that blowing is mandatory, glitter not acceptable.

Seriously, if I still see glitter and it's still working the same or better than new, I will put the issue behind me.  I still have the factory warranty in case the engine blows up.  It's not like I am plagued with OCD.  And it's not like Toro will deny my warranty for changing oil more often than recommended.