Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

FWIW, I bought my 1st 2 stager - Honda unit - without ever demoing a unit that had Hydrostatic Transmission.
Just short of the fact that it's variable infinite speed, can anyone just give me a laymens primer on the benefits of a Hydrostatic Transmission ?


BTW, how often if any do you do a OCI on the hydro transmission.

I was just surprised how much ~harder~ is is to move when not engadged as opposed to ~regular~ geared transmission.
I was at the local orange borg last night and wheeled the Organge buckets around and they wheel so much with ease...

OUT SIDE OF MAKING THOSE WHO MAKE THEM RICH, YOU CAN CONTROL THE SPEED OF THE BETTER THAN A DISK TYPE .  THEY ALSO USE LESS ENGINE POWER TO RUN, THIS RESULTS IN MORE OF YOUR ENGINE POWER BEING USED TO BLOW SNOW , THUS GREATER OUTPUT. THE TRADE OFF IS MANUVERABILITY AND NOT ONLY COST OF THE UNIT BUT COST OF REPAIR ALSO.   THEY LAST A GOOD LONG TIME .   IT IS YOUR ONLY PERSONAL PREFERENCE. THOSE WHO BUY THEM HAVE HILLS OR STEEP DRIVEWAYS. TRACKS ARE SAFER FOR THAT USE.  THE ONLY GENERAL MAINTANCE  IS CHANGING YOUR TRANS OIL ON TIME AS PER MANUFACTURE REQUIREMENTS.  THEY BRAKE SHEER PINS EASY TOO .

Variable infinite speed and very high efficiency are the benefits, along with high reliability.

The downside is they are terribly expensive. Despite the reliability, they can and do fail. You usually can't fix it yourself and repairs are very expensive, if even possible - you might just end up having to replace the whole thing. Parts are often proprietary and thus expensive, if even available. You already know about the lack of freewheeling.

A hydrostatic is an enclosed unit that contains a variable speed hydraulic pump, valving, and motor(s). None of these would be terribly expensive but they are all custom parts. A true hydraulic drive, as is found on some tractors (not "lawn" tractors), has separate single speed pump(s), valving, a differential, and motor(s) which are fairly universal and easily replaceable - and often they are "rebuildable". The penalty for this is a loss of efficiency (more power to move = less available for work) and it's nowhere near as compact. That is acceptable on a tractor, but not so much on a walk behind that has to be kept small and light (relatively speaking).

When you change fluid on your hydrostatic, be very careful that you do not allow any foreign particles into it.

Thx for the primer. I was reading the manual and I am still unclear. Does one need to disengage  when going from forward to reverse.
While I get the variable speed going forward OR backward, does the clutch need to be disengaged anytime when switching F-R or vice versa

I think it's okay to shift from forward to reverse without declutching, move the lever to neutral slowly so you don't shock the drivetrain.  It's probably okay on ice or snow, since, the tracks or wheels will slip a little, but probably very abusive to the drive train on clean pavement.  Use common sense, you wouldn't want to pull the e-brake on AWD car to drift unless you like to get a new differential.

Great analogy.....I'm not thinking straight.

Augers are coming out today. I have a half day today ;)

Do you mind taking pics and post them online?  I'd do it myself but don't have the luxury of taking out half days to play with my toys.  :)

I'll try. Sometimes I get into the heat of the moment and just wrench on..

This time of the year is crazy...even taking 4 days before T day to prep, it's always a madhouse...

I'm trying to cram sealing/finishing the cedar, build shed foundation, trim bushes, build shed all between now and 10 days from now.
That is just on my short list of of to dos ----all thanks to this new red bucket of mine. Eeeks - Does that mean 10 days minus 4 days of Tday Prep = 6 days.

aa335 wrote:

Actually you should be able to pull the e-brake to drift on an AWD car to drifty with no problem. You can see Ken Brock doing it in his videos. But You pull it just enough and then let it go.

I'd say the hydrostatic is similar to a cars automatic transmission. How fast do you want to be going forward and then jam it into reverse? On my 928TAS I came to a stop and then reversed it. I think reversing it while moving would be a bad idea.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
I don't know what his car is set up is like, but I wouldn't do it on a normal car.  When you pull the e-brake, all the torque from the rear wheels goes to the front wheels, that sounds like driveline shock to me.

AA...going to button her back up in a hrs or 2.
Any more pics you want..

Yeah, how about pics of the blower / impeller and what do you need to take off to free it from the shaft>

It's easy as taking candy from a child....

Steps 1 and 2. Once you look at it in person you will understand.
Remove the support bracket.
Remove the Blower Shear Bolt.

Ah, yes, very easy.  Just looked up the parts diagram.

Actually, I tried taking candy from my one year old boy, wasn't as easy as I thought.  He put up a good fight.  I can pull him along the wood floor but he wouldn't let go of the candy. 

aa335 wrote:

If you are on dirt or even pavement you can yank the e-brake to start you into the turn. Many AWD cars don't like to drift. It sure doesn't hurt Subaru's but might wear the brakes faster but yeah you have to let off the gas when you do it. We have RallyX events here and you'll see quite a few of them doing that. The FWD's lke to rotate if you use a bit of brake.

Steve_Cebu wrote:

Is there a difference in this behavior between a front wheel and rear wheel drive biased AWD car? I have a '07 G35X with the ATTESA-ETS system that seems quite drift-able if pushed but I wonder if that is the case since it is effectively a RWD car most of the time aside from slipping conditions and starts up to about 12MPH?

snowmachine wrote:

You won't be drifting at 12 mph. Sliding but not drifting. FWD will drift on dirt quite nicely. Here in NH we have one of the largest Rally schools in the USA and they start you out with FWD cars. FWD will handle differently than RWD versus AWD. The dynamics are completely different. For example when the Japanese drift racers were trying to get a stock Miata to drift, it just did not want to go until they used the e-brake to get it to rotate. We do have Ice racing up here if it gets cold enough so I'm looking forward to doing that. It's like RallyX/AutoX on ice. Your car is similar to the BMW 335 which has a similar system. No idea how well they drift. In NH it's hard to buy a RWD only BMW since we get a fair amount of snow. For AWD I'd get a Subaru like my old WRX. But Subies tend to push rather than rotate especially on pavement. If the driver is good you can drift anything. That's what Team O'Neil will tell you.

 http://team-oneil.com/

Steve_Cebu wrote:

Is pushing considered understeer?

snowmachine wrote:

Yes, the best description is Understeer is when you see the wall before you hit it and Oversteer is when you don't. Most cars setup today are setup for understeer intentionally. I remember the old Porsche 911 air cooled models that would swap ends in the blink of an eye on a corner if you let off the throttle in a turn. Nasty!

Thankfully my snowblower pulls rather than pushes.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
Ah, those early 911 were known for being "widowmakers" for a reason.  Before the whale tale, they were even more hairy to drive.  They should be standard issue for lawyers.  :)

Not for the faint of heart.  If you're going into the turn too hot, better plant your foot on the gas and stay committed to the turn. 

So tell me Steve, how does your snowblower pulls?  :)

aa335 wrote:

Yeah but those old 911's had soul (probably from the death of the previous owner) But they were fun to drive.

My snowblower pulls so well that I hear a local biker gang is going to get 2 Toros and chain people they don't like between them and blow snow in opposite directions.... Painful!  Might just be a rumor tho.

Sounds like something from a Mad Max movie.

I bet the hydrostatic transmission might pull better than those ole friction disc types. 

aa335 wrote:

I'm sure they do pull better for an extra $800+ they should cook me breakfast in the morning too.

Honda does make good stuff, dead reliable and feature free. Less stuff to break means more reliable if it's built well. I did hate the rear skid shoes on my 928TAS. I prefer side skid shoes. But it was built like a tank, albeit harder to turn.

Steve_Cebu wrote:
Clarification, that's ONLY $500 for the hydro transmission and $300 for the unique Honda red paint! 

Still can't cook me breakfast either, but it can put the snow on my neighbor's driveway.  He's got a Hummer H2 and I've been tempted to snow wall him in.  It's never been offroad and has made more Starbucks coffee runs than I can remember.  :)

aa335 wrote:

Hummers are too big to go offroad. There are far more capable vehicles out there. I don't know if they have hydrostatic trannys tho.

My old Landcruiser was a 1984 with a turbo dioesel engine in it. It would shame any Hummer made. I have pics of it but would have to find them.

I don't miss my Honda, I like my Toro too much but the Honda was a good machine.

An interesting observation....I've moved the HS724 plenty of times with the engine off/transmission disengaged.

There was a link to a video on youtube that showed how *productive* one could be with wheels when just going straight, pulling the unit backwards in one heap, then make another forward pass,  rinse and repeat.
I guess to do this on the Honda, it's not easily done in this fashion due to the hydrostatic transmission.

Just yearning for more info, to get a better idea of the pros and cons of various things while figuring out what are the best methods of importing ~old blue~ back stateside.......

chefwong wrote:
I'm sure if you want to, you can rig a bicycle brake lever to that transmission to make it easier.  That might be worthwhile with the wheeled unit, I wouldn't do it on track unit since it's still quite a bit of effort to move it.

Also, another method to try with your wheeled snowblower is lift up the rear and put more weight on the skids when pulling back.  You can let the wheels glide over the thin layer of snow.

Try them all and see which method works for you.  Your 724 is a pretty lightweight and being wheel, not track, may be easier to do.  Us people with tracks snowblowers have no choice but just have to flick the speed selector lever forward and reverse.  :)

Good luck on getting ole blue

1. The hydrostatic drive has the variable speed forward and reverse like a joystick for one hand control.

2. Hydrostatic has no cable stretch issues and no friction disc to clean or worry about water getting in causing slippage like on the John Deere of 2009 before the new seal kit.

3. Below the unit is a release lever to disengage the transmission to roll around with the engine off. Apparently the person complaing about moving it didn't switch the release.

This high technology cost more but the payback is in ease of use and the elimination of service calls and repairs that everyone is paying on the pressure plate design when your not handy and can't fix or clean it yourself.

PS I saw the comments on Subaru all wheel drive. The A3 transmission is 80% front wheel, 20% rear wheel. The slip correction doesn't occur unless you tap the brake to tell the computer to check the slip differential. The demo on how this works was on a film of a Subaru going up an icy ramp. To make this work in the snow you must take the car out of "D" for over drive and put it in "3" for driving in snow to increase 4 wheel drive ratios and automatic corrections.  The newer models may be different but I know most cars even my Caddy tells you to take it out of "D" and puty  in "3" and there is a special button that looks like a snow flake. From talking to people about this 99% never read the owners manual and always leave the car in drive "D" until after the accident and they read about it or get informed.

 Drive safe, drive smart.

>>>Drive safe, drive smart.

Drive back to New Jersy.

trouts2 wrote:

Or New York   trouts2 wrote:

trouts2 wrote:

+1

Will the real David step forward?

I would say that the biggest advantage of the hydro drives. Is that under any conditions you can match your forward speed to your blower through put capacity.  That fact that you can slow the forward speed down to a little more than a creep under certain conditions.  Is a real plus in my opinion.  I've noticed with my re-powered 1032 Arien.  That I need a little slower forward speed or a little higher through put under maximum snow load conditions.
That would be a full 32" cut with a snow depth to the top of the bucket.  The engine doesn't bog and only drops about 3 to 400 rpm.  But I sometimes have to pause for maybe 2 seconds for the blower to clear part of it's load.
That is the beauty of the hydro trans.  If I had one I could back it down just a little and keep the blower at max through put without over loading it. Matching your forward speed to the snow load is how you achieve maximum snow clearing performance for any blower.  If you move to fast for the load. You lose rpm and everything slows down.  Forward motion and blower through put.
 

jrtrebor wrote:

This may not be relevant but I find that the drive engagement lever in my Toro can be used to creep forward if i just lightly push down on it. I would imagine Ariens would do the same. I only have to use this when I get near the hidden rocks but it does work.

I'd second everything jrtrebor said above in post 33.

As I get more clearing time and familiar with the Honda hydro the more I like it.  Slowing way down in tough going is easy with the hydro compared to friction drive.  With the hydro your hands are free to do a little bucket wiggling or lifting and lowering.  With friction drive and slipping the clutch it's harder to manage the slowed rate while jiggle the machine at the same time.  The rate changes.  That's ok for a short pile or small areas where the going is tough but for a long run of tough going the managing of the drive clutch becomes a hassle.  For a small clearing area it's not so much a big deal but for a big area and constantly haveing to manage the clutch in big snow the hydro makes it easy.  It's easier to the drive rate for a slight plowing of the bucket. Changing speeds is easier.  For many area these advantages are not so great.   The tough areas are not so many and the number of times of big snows few.  The number of wet snows is also a factor. 

The hydro seem very robust and like it could take quite a bit of hard yearly use.  I've talked with a few owners, Honda dealers and service mechanics and they all have the same report that the hydro is well made and stands up over the years.  That also may not be much of a factor for many.  Friction disk last a long time when used right.   I've picked up several of the hydro tracks and a few very beat up from always using bucket forward.  The buckets were ground off a full half in all around the bottom section of the bucket with metal in the back pealed.  Big abuse but hydro fine and also the track components seem unworn. 

The hydro would seem to be a nice feature and worth the extra cost for bigger areas and commercial use.  For a smaller area and with someone who is no so concerned about the price compared to a decent friction drive machine a hydro would be ok.  

Yes you can do the same on an Ariens as on a Toro.  Just feather or lightly engage the drive to move a little slower.  But that is actually allowing the drive plate to slip on the friction wheel a bit. Which if done for to long will heat up the rubber on the wheel. Taken to the extreme you could flat spot the fiction wheel if this was done under an extreme snow load. Which is when the slower speed is sometimes needed the most.  But having said all that feathering the drive is alright as long as the wheels are continuing  to spin while feathering.  That tells a person that the fiction wheel is spinning and not being held in one place and burning.

But as trout said being able to just adjust and set the Hydro speed and forget it, makes things simpler a lot easier. While you sometimes wrestle with the blower itself.

Not sure if the same can be done with friction disc, but with hydro, I can change drive speed and direction on the fly without releasing the drive lever. Convenient at times when you need to rock it out of a rut.

You can't the friction disk is touching the drive plate so won't slide to another gears when the clutch is engaged.  You can quickly let off the clutch and get another gear quickly if you are very familiar with your machine but most people arn't because of infrequent use.

aa335 wrote:

I've used an MTD track for 13 years and I just got my Honda tracked about a month ago, but I've never encountered a time with tracks that you need to rock it out of a rut. Worst case when I ended up in a ditch, the machines are always set up to simply balance the thing backwards and let it climb its way out.

I was just moving all my OPE and cars around in my outdoor workshop and the ground had about an inch of snow (I've not used the Honda yet) and I realized the Honda in snow turns effortlessly. No joke, no exaggeration. I'm a small guy so I'm not muscling the thing around, its just easy to turn. And I don't think its any worse than the MTD because the MTD sat "flat" on the tracks, meaning even with the trigger drive, that thing would not allow you to slip it on the ground. By contrast the tracks on the Honda are raised in the center meaning there's a high spot where its pivoting on a 1/2" inch piece of rubber, so as long as I keep it going, I can spin it 180 degrees. And with the hydro drive, as I come to tight turns, I don't have to stop, I simply slow it down let it spin on the tracks a bit and go. Nice. I am looking forward to 30" of snow now.

And in thinking about how people keep saying the Honda track drives are hard to maneuver, I finally realized its a matter of perspective. *I've only ever used a track drive*, the first year I struggled because I had to keep stopping to steer it, move it slide it, and after a while tracks become second nature. Tracks might take a homeowner 2-3 years to really get accustomed to how to use them.

I'm guessing that aa335 was talking about a situation where the tracks have lost traction (there spinning). So you have to rock it a bit for the tracks to get a better bite on the surface. Or you are simply digging a hole with the tracks, so to speak.

It isn't recommended, but changing gears on a friction disc without stopping or disengaging is possible.  I do it sometimes.

Not sure if having hydrostatic transmission is good for sensitive owners like myself.  The fluid level is just funny - it looks like nothing there but when the engine warms up, the level looks normal.  It just feels strange - so I called my dealer this morning and told me it is just normal and nothing to worry about.  I asked him if I should add an oz or two and that would make me feel better - so the dealer said that would be just fine and asked me to bring a plastic container so he can give me an oz or two to add.  So having this extra flud check level is not a good thing for someone as anal as I am.

MN_Runner wrote:
You can wrap the reservoir with a black plastic bag so you don't see it.    I'm surprised you don't have a fluid level table at every temperature so you can tell that it's 2 microns low.

jrtrebor wrote:
I tried climbing a 4 foot mound just for fun.  The snow was soft and the machine sunk in and got high centered, and there was still 2 foot of base snow underneath the tracks.  A little rocking back and forth and side to side helped pull it out.

   Interesting comment on taking a few years to get used to snowblowers.  It has with me.  I'm getting better and looking for jamborees. Buy a 350 and flat bed and do the snowblower circuit.

   I tried stairs yesterday.  Down was fine but I could not get back up.  Going down did not clear all the snow as I did not want to bang the bucket so the treads were not exposed going up.  I figured it could dig it's way down to them but it did not.  They probalby had to be "clean" to go up.  ??

I am begining to like FD as there is nothing to see or check.  Perhaps that is the hidden beauty of FD.  Hydrostatic transmission was one of the reason why I did not buy HRX217 with that fluid reservior on it.  It would just drive me crazy.

MN_Runner wrote:
I never got warmed up to the design of the HRX217 mower.  The hydro fluid reservoir didn't bother me.  What bother me about it was the long handles which makes it hard to maneuver around tight areas and turning around, the complicated blade clutch and drive bail arragement, Xenoy plastic deck, and the GC engine.  I don't find the mulch/bag lever useful for me.  It's either bag, or mulch.  Nothing in between. 

Just give me the updated version of the Honda Master HM series, cast aluminum deck, GX engine, chrome handles, and cone clutch drive.  That's all I ask.  Hydros are fine for heavier pieces of equipment, but too complicated and heavy for a walk behind 21" mower.

Turning is no issue for me when I had Toro or Honda as my yard is a fairly simple 190' by 120' rectangle.  I just wanted a little more HP since when the grass gets long and wet, the lawnmower makes that terrible sound.

MN_Runner wrote:

Friction drive is fine, but when used for a couple of hours (probably from water more than heat), my old MTD simply would not drive and I would have to let it sit overnight. But I have no problem inherently with them and I think the design is brilliant. It would not be my deciding factor to choose/not-choose a snowblower. My number 1 thing to choose is reliability in tough conditions, number 2 is availability of parts. Snowblowers take a beating, and I'm of the opinion that you've got to learn to fix it yourself, because they only break when conditions are bad (that is, when your local dealer can't get to you, or vice-versa). So factor in the purchase of the shop manual to the price.

Off topic but I have 2 Masters series mowers.  1 Hydrostatic and 1 3 speed.  I have owned Toro, Ariens, Craftsman, Lawnboy, Snapper  and I must say that I would not trade my masters for any other mower.  I use the Hydo all the time  and the 3 spd once in a while. I have used some of the newer Honda models but they are not the same.  aa335 wrote:

MN_Runner wrote:
NO self righteous OCD person mow wet and long grass.  Just not in cards.  The cut is terrible!

Homeowner mower doesn't have the oomph to do it.  You need a commercial 32" walkbehind or larger for that.

it is not an ideal condition but some weeks in summer you have no choice.  Happened to me a few times this summer.

   I have a CRAFTSMAN Model 52993 ,1450 series B&S engine, 27 inch snow blower . This model is built by Husqvarna and is identical to (except it is red instead of orange)  to the Husqvarna Model.    It has hydrostatic drive, power steering, heated grips,and the  remote chute controls  . This is the best snow blower out there,   The hydrostatic drive is a one lever operation,move it  forward to go forward an backward to go back. It can be operated at  a very low speed, barely moving forward with the engine set at its highest speed so the impeller and augers are turning at their max speed. It is much easier to go through very deep snow  with no reduction in RPM .The power steering enables it to turn in its own tracks  or make gradual steering adjustments. The heated grips are nice when the outside temperature drops.  The remote chute controls are easy to operate , are fast and logically designed. I would highly recommend these models.

royster wrote:
Interesting.  I knew that Husqvarna made chain and gear driven blowers but didn't know that they made hydrostatic models.  What is it's throwing distance like?

I would estimate 50-60 feet, depending on the type of snow.   Dry or drifted snow  50-60 feet,   wet slushy snow   25-30 feet..  I live where the houses are about 80-100 ft apart,  There are snowblowers at each house, various makes.  The snow at the sides of my driveway are lower than the others, because I can throw the snow farther, WE now have over   4 feet of snow on the ground, that is where it has not drifted.

The Husky "16530EXL" model has a Hydro.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/landowner/products/snow-throwers/16530exl/

I've noticed some of the Husky/Craftsman models sold in Canada also have hydros. I have yet to see one being sold in the states though

. Paul7 wrote:

chefwong wrote:

The clutch lever does not have to be disengaged anytime,  Just hold down the clutch lever, and use the hydro lever only, when going from forward to reverse or  vice versa  changing speeds in forward or reverse, no stopping is required. This does not abuse the hydrostatic transmission, it is designed to work like this.    The hydro lever should not be moved unless the engine is running.

Royster,

    You seem to be a smart guy.  Can you go over in detail the advantages of the hydro and explain it's operation?   What are the bad points of a friction disk system? 

trouts2 wrote:

      I don't consider myself to be a smart guy, but I guess that is what it seems to you,  Thankyou anyway.

You can read my review of the Husqvarna  16530EXL , and in my opinion , the advantages and disadvantages of  hydrostatic drive , etc.

under the discussion heading,"Is a hydrostatic  drive good for a snowblower"

My message # 77.