Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

is this a quality product.......or would i be better off for a few hundred, going with the 28" toro powermax?

What the case is made of is not as important as the gears. Snapper/Simplicity uses a 1/4" shear pin. Ariens uses a prestressed shear bolt (read will break easer). Toro uses a 5/16" grade 5 bolt in their large frame Power Max Models. If you use an after market shear bolt in an Ariens and something should happen to the gear case or the gears Ariens will deny the warranty (they have special markings on their shear bolts). The Toro gear case auger shaft is 1" and is the full width of the machine & a 7/8" input shaft almost bullet proof. I'm not saying that you can't damage a Toro gear case but it is a lot harder to do. All of the other's just don't compare and that includes Honda.

AJ

My impression is that the Toro auger gear case and gear is more robust than the rest. Toro is definitely taking a different approach. I'm still not convinced that having the toughest auger case/gears makes it the best snowblower, even if comes with a Dana rear end. However, there's got to be a sacrificial part that is a weak point designed to fail so prevent damage to a more expensive and less accessible part. Or there is some slipper clutch mechanism to soften the drivetrain shock. Unless Toro decided that it their engines is the cheapest component that's easy to replace.

Do tell.

I'll take a simplicity pro anyday over a Toro.Strange....of all the stores I went to,and I spoke to the mechanics not the sales people ,no one ever said that a toro was better than a simp pro .This was at stores pushing Toros.The simp pro is also in the same ball park price wise. I put my 11570e simp pro thru hell last winter and the gear box performed superbly.But one thing I do know,my machine will never crack because its all steel...no plastic.I know I know its high tech ,cutting edge blah blah blah ,blah blah plastic.You dont see Honda or Ariens using plastic.I mean we can compare part for part.Thickness,width ,depth etc.In the end Toro is behind a few brands.Maybe someone can get all the specs on both machines and we can do an objective analysis.

mikiewest wrote:
Are you referring to plastic gear case? I haven't seen a plastic gear case on a 2 stage snowblower. Not that it can't be done.

I doubt that the Simplicity is all steel. Bucket housing, steel yes. Generally, parts that are stamped, steel yes. But a complex geometry such as gear case? Steel, No. Simplicity stated that it is cast iron. A steel gear case is either machined or cast steel, both of which are highly expensive and not cost effective (profitable) to be used on a snowblower.

I don't see a problem where Toro has chosen to use plastics. It's designed well and feels solid.

aa335 wrote:

i believe he is referring to the plastic discharge chute.  however, it is a teflon material, was developed in 1998 and has been used on the toro snowblowers since 2001.  it is very strong, and only people that don't pay attention to details would think it is a weak point in the design.  It actually makes it better than the others.  snow will not freeze or stick to it, and its been in use for the last 8 years, and i've seen no complaints of cracking.  Toro was one of the first in the snowblower business, and they seem to be the best.

that's strange because toro did have problems with their plastic in the beginning.It was cracking and there was a recall on their machines.The dealer told me.And I'm referring to the frame being steel and the chute etc.Like I said,steel doesnt crack,plastic does.And you cant convince me that the plastic chute rotator is more robust than my chute rotator/deflector.

The Toro PowerMax discharge chutes are made from HDPE and have no Teflon content. They (and other PowerMax plastic parts) were made from a different polymer material when the problems ocurred on early models.

ajallen wrote:
The term you are searching for on the Ariens shear bolts is "stress relieved", not "pre-stressed". It is an annealing process to eliminate hard spots in the steel caused by the carbon content. It provides for a very repeatable and predictable shear. The Ariens Deluxe XS and Pro gear cases can easily shear the Gr5 bolts the Toro uses. They'll also snub 13hp engines if the shear bolts fail or the augers seize to the shaft. Throw some grade 8 aircraft bolts in and this will be the case (and yes, the warranty will then be void as with any non Ariens prescribed OEM shear bolt). However, just because you can put a gun on safety doesn't mean you point it at your head when you clean it, if you get my drift. A gear case replacement will metaphorically have the same painful consequence (financially) on the off-chance something fails and the warranty is expired or voided.

That said, the Toro gear case is hardly "without equal". The comparable Ariens models (XS Deluxe and Pro) use a similar sized alloy steel gear, similar 4 lead worm, similar use of EP/GL rated gear oils (versus less capable grease), similar ~1/4" casting wall, and identical diameter 7/8" input shaft and 1" output shaft. The Ariens also has a true worm/worm gear mesh where the Toro uses a worm/helical gear setup to make it easier to manufacture. You can PM mold helical teeth, but a true worm gear has to be machined (which is more difficult with a steel gear, versus the more common free-machining bronze gear). The less-than-ideal gear mesh present on the Toro creates higher localized tooth stresses (sliding point contact instead of line contact). The Ariens also uses an asynchronous "hunting tooth" design which causes the teeth to break-in over time to mate perfectly for longer life, and, in this particular case, boosts the ratio for increased capacity (39T w/4 leads versus 40T w/4 leads). This feature also further reduces tooth stress, reduces operating oil temperature, and lessens the burden on the oil's EP additives.

The top-line Simplicity gear cases are a tier below these with 2 lead worms, relatively small diameter bronze worm gears, and smaller 3/4" input shafts (hidden under some rather enlarging plastic sleeves). If you run the math on these the load carrying capability is down ~30% when compared to the equivalent Ariens gear case. The aluminum versions go without auger shaft bushings (shafts run on the housing casting) and the cast iron versions use grease instead of gear oil. They do use a "hunting tooth" design, but with 21 teeth and a 2 lead worm they effectively reduce auger RPM's when compared to others (with equal impeller speed). Given that impellers are always the capacity bottleneck, this is less desirable. These gear cases are not known to be problematic in either version (that I'm aware of). I'm not sure about the Murray style gear boxes that go on the L1226E and the Intermediate series (and the comparable Snapper bretherin), but they're probably another tier below. The questionable application in my mind is the use of the Murray/Brute style auge gear box on the 2009 L1226E with the 14" augers (this gear box has historically run only 12" augers).

The mainstream MTD's are at the bottom from a pure specification standpoint. Very small diameter bronze gears, 2 lead worms, 3/4" input and output shafts, and grease lube with no apparent serviceability capability of the lubricant. EP/GL gear oils are far better functionally but higher viscosity grease is easier to seal which is probably why there is no fill point on these.

mikiewest wrote:
There are many variables going into making a plastic part. Having problems with plastics initially is not unusual, and expected by the designers and molders. This should not prematurely fault on plastics in general. Anecdotal failures only gives us the occurence/frequency of failures. Robustness has little to do with the material itself. There are many robust designs that are lightweight and plastic. Look around. I will leave it up to you to be enlightened or call it a day.