Abby’s Guide > Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) > Discussions > Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions |
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EdwardoKarochio
Joined: Sep 7, 2007
Points: 23
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Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Original Message Sep 7, 2007 12:39 pm |
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Trying to pick a replacement for my Craftsman single stage snowthrower that I am replacing due to difficult starting and since it is generally inadequate in clearing my drifts,EOD, and heavier accumulations. Background: I have an 80ft flat, paved driveway, appx 20ft wide and a bit of side walk to clear. Although NOAA says my average snowfall is 24"/yr, some years we don't seem to get any and other years (such as last year), we get about double that, some times in the 12"-14" range. I live in a windy area where drifts get in the 2' + range. Storage of unit with clearing width to 30" is not a problem. Choices: Budget $1000-$1500. Toro 826LE or 828LXE-I have several good service/dealer locations nearby (price $1099/$1399) Simplicty L10530E-Having a Simplicity Tractor, I know the dealer fairly well-average as far as service/support (price $1499) Ariens 824E or 1027LE-Dealer is about 20mile away, don't really know him. (price $999/$1200) These were the ones I was considering, I see +/- to each. Let me know what you think or if you need more info. Thanks
This message was modified Sep 7, 2007 by EdwardoKarochio
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MichaelFix
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Points: 17
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #28 Sep 14, 2007 9:56 pm |
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Michael,
The reason the industry is going away from horsepower is due to pressures stemming from legal challenges of the SAE practices for rating horsepower. The practices by which engines can be rated is somewhat deceiving at times, and then there is just plain wishful thinking in other cases. That said, the torque equation holds true as long as the power curves are published by engineers and not marketing folks. With various manufacturers rating their engines differently it will get very confusing soon for customers (as has happened here).
All engine maufacturers are required to follow the same SAE practicies, there are no disadvantage or advantage fro any one engine or any one maufacturer. It is more a matter of compliance or non-compliance.
It is a matter of policy that research development engineers create engine performance curves not marketing folks. Again, it's not a free for all a these labs, it's a matter following their policy. Can you imagine one of these places being audited and the auditor asks R&D for the method by which they derive hp and the engineer points to the marketing group? Yeah that would go over well. . .
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MichaelFix
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Points: 17
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #29 Sep 14, 2007 10:17 pm |
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Torque is a better indicator for engine selection versus displacement only if the curve itself is published (this is not very practical marketing-wise). The quality of the curve is what is most important (not peak torque). For example, an engine with a peak torque too close to the operating RPM can have problems snubbing out when it is overexerted. Or if an engine has a very peaky torque curve it will not hold the line well. The Tecumseh L-heads (318cc and 358cc) have a very flat curve that peaks down around 2500 RPM which is beneficial. The Briggs model 15 (249cc), which is market-wise comparable to the 318cc Tecumseh L-head, has near comparable peak torque but nowhere near the quality of the torque curve. The higher average torque across the RPM range of the Tecumseh is (in this case) mostly a result of a 28% displacement advantage.
As an engineer I know a little about torque curves.
Measuring an engines performance based on displacement is analogous to doing the same based on it's color, or it's dB rating. For all engines or class of engines produced a corresponding performance curve is also produced, you know. . . that physics thing again. And on performance curve there is and will always be torque = force at a specific rpm and work in a unit of time which is hp. I do not think this is likely to change. Sales, Marketingand OEMs may chose to intrepret these performance curves disigenuously but to me "when in doubt, look at the curve"
This message was modified Sep 14, 2007 by MichaelFix
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Snowmann
 
Joined: Dec 3, 2003
Points: 494
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #30 Sep 14, 2007 10:24 pm |
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All engine maufacturers are required to follow the same SAE practicies, there are no disadvantage or advantage fro any one engine or any one maufacturer. It is more a matter of compliance or non-compliance. It is a matter of policy that research development engineers create engine performance curves not marketing folks. Again, it's not a free for all a these labs, it's a matter following their policy. Can you imagine one of these places being audited and the auditor asks R&D for the method by which they derive hp and the engineer points to the marketing group? Yeah that would go over well. . . It doesn't go over well at all actually... http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/hyundai_settlement.html
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MichaelFix
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Points: 17
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #31 Sep 14, 2007 10:29 pm |
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And the cost for non-compliace? A wonderful example indeed "I am an Engineer, in my profession I take deep pride. To it I owe solemn obligations. . . " They must have been absent that day
This message was modified Sep 14, 2007 by MichaelFix
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EdwardoKarochio
Joined: Sep 7, 2007
Points: 23
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #32 Sep 15, 2007 1:56 am |
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With various manufacturers rating their engines differently it will get very confusing soon for customers (as has happened here).
It has gone so far as to confuse the dealers. Three in my area were under the impression that it was a 14hp engine based on simplicity's model # system. I actually went through 3 Briggs techs before I got one that had the correct info (rated on torque rather than HP)...interesting that the dealers didn't seem to have any confusion about the other models....I'd assume that simplicity would be re-numbering them also. Looking at the numbers I'm sure you're right, It's still the engine that was rated at 9.5HP on last years models.
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EdwardoKarochio
Joined: Sep 7, 2007
Points: 23
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Re: Help with Snow Thrower Decision
Reply #33 Oct 26, 2007 11:05 am |
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According to Weaver's website the L1428E has a 10.5 hp engine. don't know why the link won't post, but here it is: http://weaversinfo.com/Price%20sheets/Simplicity/simplicity_snowblowers.htm
This message was modified Oct 26, 2007 by EdwardoKarochio
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