Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Trying to pick a replacement for my Craftsman single stage snowthrower that I am replacing due to difficult starting and since it is generally inadequate in clearing my drifts,EOD, and heavier accumulations.

Background:

I have an 80ft flat, paved driveway, appx 20ft wide and a bit of side walk to clear.  Although NOAA says my average snowfall is 24"/yr, some years we don't seem to get any and other years (such as last year), we get about double that, some times in the 12"-14" range.  I live in a windy area where drifts get in the 2' + range.  Storage of unit with clearing width to 30" is not a problem.

Choices:

Budget $1000-$1500.

Toro 826LE or 828LXE-I have several good service/dealer locations nearby (price $1099/$1399)

Simplicty L10530E-Having a Simplicity Tractor, I know the dealer fairly well-average as far as service/support (price $1499)

Ariens 824E or 1027LE-Dealer is about 20mile away, don't really know him. (price $999/$1200)

These were the ones I was considering, I see +/- to each.  Let me know what you think or if you need more info.  Thanks

I think Toro and Ariens are, for all intents and purposes are about equal in my mind.. After sales support should also be a major consideration before making your decision and it looks like you've done that. I'd go for one of the Toro models that best suits your needs.

I'd go Toro!!

Go to the reviews section and read up on what other folks say about their blowers!

                                                          Fred

Just checked the review section, some one erased the snow blower reviews??

They were there last year!!

                                                             Fred

Thanks for your opinions. I've read the reviews here....and everywhere else I can find.  The reviews are still here.......http://www.abbysguide.com/snow-blower/reviews/..

I didn't know if the advantages of the Simplicity 10.5 Briggs itek snow OHV, cast iron gear box, etc were enough to justify the price or were overkill for my application.

Once again....thanks for your opinions....if anyone else has any ideas, I'd appreciate them.

there is a sears forum available and it has all kinds of folks telling it about their sears and some are x employees who can tell you best ones to get and sales etc..do a search like SEARS LAWN EQUIPMENT FORUM,that might work, you get the point..

i used to be on their all time,they know their stuff..

i would by SEARS on sale,best deal..

i have sears 7.75 hp brigs ohv.i think its 26 inch wide..

it clears snow as deep as 22 inchs. so far..

if i had a lot of snow and deep i would get like a 11 hp one and nice and wide.

most snow we get here in pa is like 12 inchs latety and my 7.75 works fine....

The Briggs is prolly a better engine( since the B&S engine in question and Techumsa have no info on their web site it's impossible to tell ) but it's the tranny I'd be worried about on the Simplicity.

I'd much rather take a look at the performance curves myself

      

Hmmmm, I hadn't heard of any specific tranny problems with the simplicity.  What kind of problems should I be concerned about?  Thanks . 

For what ever reason I cannot post images.

What I was going to post was a review that shows the Simplicitys throwing distance isn't  where it should be when compared to other machines in it's class. That to me indicates there may be an issue with the mechanical advantage used on this machine

toro all the way.  the auger design is superior to any ive seen.  it will out throw all on market.  no tranny on the toro.  just good old fashioned gears.  keep them clean and lubed during summer, keep rust to a minimum.     these have the tecumseh engines on them,  which have proven very good engines on the snowblowers.  im not a summer tecumseh engine fan,  summer engines belong to briggs.  there is a reason snowblowers for 50 years run tecumsehs. if you do go back and look at the simplicity,  which briggs and stratton owns as well as snapper,  ask the dealer if the specific unit you are looking at has had the recall kit installed on the carburetor.  they have an issue with staring on fire.  its service bulletin  #738.  if you look closely at snapper and the simplicity lines the are the same units only one is orange and the other red.

Probaly Mech is right for today's market, because some companys had change their quality and design not for the best sometimes, but in my book, I think Ariens blower are the best before 1990. Well thats my oppinion, and I knbow that TORO is a very very good machine too.

Thanks for everyones input thusfar.  I visited my dealer today.  They've got 3 828LXE's in stock.  That's the way I'm leaning right now.  I'll post when I've made my purchase.....Thanks again.

EdwardoKarochio wrote:
I just grabbed a Ariens 926DLE - still in the box from last season.  Sweet machine...can't wait for the first snow!  - I have heard good things about Toro as well.  Either brand should last for 30 years easily.

I'm still mulling my options.  I's also like to consider the Simplicity L9528E.  This was the model I was first drawn to.  Size and power wise, it seems to be in the right range for me. .....The problem is this:  The new models will not be equipped with the 9.5 intek engine....I'm told it will have a 14hp engine, but noone can tell me which Briggs engine it will be (intek or power built).  I'm looking for anyone here that might know.. I called simplicity today and the tech didn't know.  I know the HP thing is kind of arbitrary with these, engine type isn't.

Also after talking with the owner of my local Simplicty dealer, I'm feeling alot better about dealing with him.  I would put him and my Toro dealer on nearly equal footing..with toro slighty favored.

I don't believe Briggs and Stratton makes a 14hp PowerBuilt engine. They do however make a 13.5 intek so i would say that is your engine. It's develops 17.1 ft-lbs torque@2500 rpm

Jesus, that's a helluvalot of engine for a 28"

That's actually gross hp-- the net is only 11hp

Anyway hp really doesn't mean much. . it's the torque that is the important number. And by the way, it's from which the hp is derived

    

 Hmmmm...I'm not seeing a 14hp Intek Snow engine (only a 14.5).  I'm more interested in intek vs power built than HP.  Although I hear that a cast iron sleeve isn't all that beneficial, it's still my preference.

Ok...I see the 13.5 hp intek snow.  Getting a little weary from too much research. 

Briggs doesn't rate their engines in horsepower anymore. You're getting horsepower confused with their new bewildering torque rating. See this link: http://www.briggsandstratton.com/display/router.asp?docid=98287

Their horsepower used to be measured at 3600 rpm. Their torque rating is measured at 3060. It's likely that this was arbitrarily selected due to to it's close RPM proximity to peak torque. This isn't the torque at the operating RPM. These are the same engines they always were, just rated differently. The silly thing is if some other manufacturer rates in torque (I don't believe anyone does currently) the RPM at which their peak torque occurs will be at a different RPM so the ratings will not be directly comparable. For example, Tecumseh's L-heads peak torque is typically at a lower RPM so they would rate their gross torque at some other RPM.

So Tecumseh still rates in hp, Briggs in a made-up Torque standard, and most others in cc's. Nothing like confusing customers. The best think to look at is probably cc's.

http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bsintek135grossml1.jpg

Looks like a preformance curve to me. no confusion here

How can they not rate their engines in hp would be a better question.   

Torque = HP x 5252/RPM or maybe physics has changed recently

So I gather from this my dealer may also be confused as to an engine change in this model due to B&S designating engines based on gross torque rather than HP.  When talking to the tech at Simplicity and providing him with the order # for this item (from 2007), he gave me an engine #20A4140115-E1, which corresponds to the Intek Snow 9.5 HP (displacement of 328cc), but I was under the impression that we were still refering to the 2007 model rather than the new model, if indeed there is an engine change.

Pretty bad when people all the way through the system are as confused as I am.

I spoke with someone " in the know" today.  They said the Simplicity L9528E is being supplied with a 13.5Hp Briggs Intek engine.  The Briggs tech I spoke with said it is being supplied with a 13.5 Gross Torque Snow Max engine.  Makes it kind of hard to compare apples to apples. 

Sooo... comparing this model:   Simplicity L13528E ($1249) to Toro 828LXE ($1399) , any opinions on which is best.  (I have all but ruled out Ariens, since the dealer is too far away). 

One thing to be aware of is that snowblowers use gas engines that are designed for cold temperatures, hence the B&S Intek Snow and Tecumseh Snow King lines. Its my understanding that a regular engine will run too cold and hence have problems. The snow engines have cowlings to help keep the engines "warm enough". It also means that they will over heat if you try to blow snow in the summer

I have somewhat completed the puzzle on this one.  The briggs tech was correct, it will be supplied with the Briggs Intek Snow Max engine...gross torque 13.5.  (seems to be an upgrade over the standard intek snow engine).    So it's between this and the TORO 828LXE......

Is it too late to recommend Honda? The HS928TA is awesome  

MichaelFix wrote:

A liitle too rich for my blood  :).  The $1399 for the TORO is my MAX,

All engines are marketed by their hp, which is kind of a misnomer. (Horse) Power is simply work done over time.

Torque is, of course, twisting force. It is the best unit of measurement when hp is in question, not displacement.

But really, I don’t want to get lathered up on the subject of torque beyond where we are now. I don't think Simplicity would put a 13.5hp engine on a 28" frame based on their current convention. That is just my opinion

However, 13.5 ft-lbs torque ? (typically not measured as gross) Sure I'd go along with that. . . It's about a 9.5 hp. . .  but either way , 

Toro still gets my vote

MichaelFix wrote:
Michael,

No confusion on my part either. It does look like a performance curve to me too. Only it was published prior to this year (when Briggs rated in hp) and it is for an Intek AVS vertical shaft 344cc lawnmower engine. The AVS system is not available on their snow engines. Also their peak rating for snow engines is 13.0hp (16.5 torque rating, 342cc horizontal).

The reason the industry is going away from horsepower is due to pressures stemming from legal challenges of the SAE practices for rating horsepower. The practices by which engines can be rated are somewhat deceiving at times. That said, the torque equation holds true as long as the power curves are published by engineers and not marketing folks. With various manufacturers rating their engines differently it will get very confusing soon for customers (as has happened here).

Torque is a better indicator for engine selection versus displacement only if the curve itself is published (this is not very practical marketing-wise). The quality of the curve is what is most important (not peak torque). For example, an engine with a peak torque too close to the operating RPM can have problems snubbing out when it  is overexerted.  Or if an engine has a very peaky torque curve it will not hold the line well. The Tecumseh L-heads (318cc and 358cc) have a very flat curve that peaks down around 2500 RPM which is beneficial. The Briggs model 15 (249cc), which is market-wise comparable to the 318cc Tecumseh L-head, has near comparable peak torque but nowhere near the quality of the torque curve. The higher average torque across the RPM range of the Tecumseh is (in this case) mostly a result of a 28% displacement advantage.

Ed,

The Intek Snow trim is comparable to the Blizzard Max and the Blizzard is comparable to the Powerbuilt Snow. There are no major differences short of a new marketing plan. They can be trimmed identically. The 13.5 Torque rating engine (it is not 13.5hp despite what you might have been told) is equivalent to the 9.5hp from last year, and it is 305cc, not 324cc (as is the 14.5 Torque Rating). The 15.5 and 16.5 are 342cc.

If you buy a Briggs powered unit make sure the recall work has been done. There have been many of these that ignited from backfiring in the heater box.

Nibbler,

You're on the money as usual. Not only are temperatures a problem in various areas of the engine, but moisture is equally an enemy.

PK

tbone2004 wrote:

T-bone,

This will make you feel good.

http://images.ariens.com/i/r/2007_snow_ad.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmICPz2Jt4

Large Cub Cadet on the left, then a Large Simplicity, then the Ariens on the far right...


Did you get a Briggs powered machine?

Snowmann wrote:

All engine maufacturers are required to follow the same SAE practicies, there are no disadvantage or advantage fro any one engine or any one maufacturer. It is more a matter of  compliance or non-compliance.

It is a matter of policy that research development engineers create engine performance curves not marketing folks. Again, it's not a free for all a these labs, it's a matter following their policy. Can you imagine one of these places being audited and the auditor asks R&D for the method by which they derive hp and the engineer points to the marketing group? Yeah that would go over well. . .

 

Snowmann wrote:

As an engineer I know a little about torque curves.

Measuring an engines performance based on displacement is analogous to doing the same based on it's color, or it's dB rating.

For all engines or class of engines produced  a corresponding  performance curve is also produced, you know. . .  that physics thing again.

And on performance curve there is and will always be  torque = force at a specific rpm and work in a unit of time which is hp. I do not think this is likely to change.

Sales, Marketingand OEMs may chose to intrepret these performance curves disigenuously but to me "when in doubt, look at the curve"      

 

MichaelFix wrote:
It doesn't go over well at all actually...

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/hyundai_settlement.html

And the cost for non-compliace? A wonderful example indeed

"I am an Engineer, in my profession I take deep pride.  To it I owe solemn obligations. . . " 

They must have been absent that day 

Snowmann wrote:
It has gone so far as to confuse the dealers.  Three in my area were under the impression that it was a 14hp engine based on simplicity's model # system.   I actually went through 3 Briggs techs before I got one that had the correct info (rated on torque rather than HP)...interesting that the dealers didn't seem to have any confusion about the other models....I'd assume that simplicity would be re-numbering them also.  Looking at the numbers I'm sure you're right,  It's still the engine that was rated at 9.5HP on last years models.

According to Weaver's website the L1428E has a 10.5 hp engine.

don't know why the link won't post, but here it is:

http://weaversinfo.com/Price%20sheets/Simplicity/simplicity_snowblowers.htm