Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Trying to pick a replacement for my Craftsman single stage snowthrower that I am replacing due to difficult starting and since it is generally inadequate in clearing my drifts,EOD, and heavier accumulations.

Background:

I have an 80ft flat, paved driveway, appx 20ft wide and a bit of side walk to clear.  Although NOAA says my average snowfall is 24"/yr, some years we don't seem to get any and other years (such as last year), we get about double that, some times in the 12"-14" range.  I live in a windy area where drifts get in the 2' + range.  Storage of unit with clearing width to 30" is not a problem.

Choices:

Budget $1000-$1500.

Toro 826LE or 828LXE-I have several good service/dealer locations nearby (price $1099/$1399)

Simplicty L10530E-Having a Simplicity Tractor, I know the dealer fairly well-average as far as service/support (price $1499)

Ariens 824E or 1027LE-Dealer is about 20mile away, don't really know him. (price $999/$1200)

These were the ones I was considering, I see +/- to each.  Let me know what you think or if you need more info.  Thanks

Briggs doesn't rate their engines in horsepower anymore. You're getting horsepower confused with their new bewildering torque rating. See this link: http://www.briggsandstratton.com/display/router.asp?docid=98287

Their horsepower used to be measured at 3600 rpm. Their torque rating is measured at 3060. It's likely that this was arbitrarily selected due to to it's close RPM proximity to peak torque. This isn't the torque at the operating RPM. These are the same engines they always were, just rated differently. The silly thing is if some other manufacturer rates in torque (I don't believe anyone does currently) the RPM at which their peak torque occurs will be at a different RPM so the ratings will not be directly comparable. For example, Tecumseh's L-heads peak torque is typically at a lower RPM so they would rate their gross torque at some other RPM.

So Tecumseh still rates in hp, Briggs in a made-up Torque standard, and most others in cc's. Nothing like confusing customers. The best think to look at is probably cc's.

http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bsintek135grossml1.jpg

Looks like a preformance curve to me. no confusion here

How can they not rate their engines in hp would be a better question.   

Torque = HP x 5252/RPM or maybe physics has changed recently

So I gather from this my dealer may also be confused as to an engine change in this model due to B&S designating engines based on gross torque rather than HP.  When talking to the tech at Simplicity and providing him with the order # for this item (from 2007), he gave me an engine #20A4140115-E1, which corresponds to the Intek Snow 9.5 HP (displacement of 328cc), but I was under the impression that we were still refering to the 2007 model rather than the new model, if indeed there is an engine change.

Pretty bad when people all the way through the system are as confused as I am.

I spoke with someone " in the know" today.  They said the Simplicity L9528E is being supplied with a 13.5Hp Briggs Intek engine.  The Briggs tech I spoke with said it is being supplied with a 13.5 Gross Torque Snow Max engine.  Makes it kind of hard to compare apples to apples. 

Sooo... comparing this model:   Simplicity L13528E ($1249) to Toro 828LXE ($1399) , any opinions on which is best.  (I have all but ruled out Ariens, since the dealer is too far away). 

One thing to be aware of is that snowblowers use gas engines that are designed for cold temperatures, hence the B&S Intek Snow and Tecumseh Snow King lines. Its my understanding that a regular engine will run too cold and hence have problems. The snow engines have cowlings to help keep the engines "warm enough". It also means that they will over heat if you try to blow snow in the summer

I have somewhat completed the puzzle on this one.  The briggs tech was correct, it will be supplied with the Briggs Intek Snow Max engine...gross torque 13.5.  (seems to be an upgrade over the standard intek snow engine).    So it's between this and the TORO 828LXE......

Is it too late to recommend Honda? The HS928TA is awesome  

MichaelFix wrote:

A liitle too rich for my blood  :).  The $1399 for the TORO is my MAX,

All engines are marketed by their hp, which is kind of a misnomer. (Horse) Power is simply work done over time.

Torque is, of course, twisting force. It is the best unit of measurement when hp is in question, not displacement.

But really, I don’t want to get lathered up on the subject of torque beyond where we are now. I don't think Simplicity would put a 13.5hp engine on a 28" frame based on their current convention. That is just my opinion

However, 13.5 ft-lbs torque ? (typically not measured as gross) Sure I'd go along with that. . . It's about a 9.5 hp. . .  but either way , 

Toro still gets my vote

MichaelFix wrote:
Michael,

No confusion on my part either. It does look like a performance curve to me too. Only it was published prior to this year (when Briggs rated in hp) and it is for an Intek AVS vertical shaft 344cc lawnmower engine. The AVS system is not available on their snow engines. Also their peak rating for snow engines is 13.0hp (16.5 torque rating, 342cc horizontal).

The reason the industry is going away from horsepower is due to pressures stemming from legal challenges of the SAE practices for rating horsepower. The practices by which engines can be rated are somewhat deceiving at times. That said, the torque equation holds true as long as the power curves are published by engineers and not marketing folks. With various manufacturers rating their engines differently it will get very confusing soon for customers (as has happened here).

Torque is a better indicator for engine selection versus displacement only if the curve itself is published (this is not very practical marketing-wise). The quality of the curve is what is most important (not peak torque). For example, an engine with a peak torque too close to the operating RPM can have problems snubbing out when it  is overexerted.  Or if an engine has a very peaky torque curve it will not hold the line well. The Tecumseh L-heads (318cc and 358cc) have a very flat curve that peaks down around 2500 RPM which is beneficial. The Briggs model 15 (249cc), which is market-wise comparable to the 318cc Tecumseh L-head, has near comparable peak torque but nowhere near the quality of the torque curve. The higher average torque across the RPM range of the Tecumseh is (in this case) mostly a result of a 28% displacement advantage.

Ed,

The Intek Snow trim is comparable to the Blizzard Max and the Blizzard is comparable to the Powerbuilt Snow. There are no major differences short of a new marketing plan. They can be trimmed identically. The 13.5 Torque rating engine (it is not 13.5hp despite what you might have been told) is equivalent to the 9.5hp from last year, and it is 305cc, not 324cc (as is the 14.5 Torque Rating). The 15.5 and 16.5 are 342cc.

If you buy a Briggs powered unit make sure the recall work has been done. There have been many of these that ignited from backfiring in the heater box.

Nibbler,

You're on the money as usual. Not only are temperatures a problem in various areas of the engine, but moisture is equally an enemy.

PK