Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Let's try this again.
There is a new buzzword that is currently making the rounds on internet forums, OPE dealerships, (and even some OPE manufacturers have let it slip from thier lips)...."Chinese Clones".
What are these "clones"?..... They are "reversed engineered" copys of equipment that have been proven products on the world market and sell for a fraction of what the originals sell for.

Has anyone had any experience with these products?

I ask because I got service bulletin from a well known engine manufacturer that basically said: "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."

I mean: "EGADS!" That puts me between a rock and a hard place.
Should I take these engines and equipment in for service and risk the ire of our largest supplier?
Or go with consumer demand for lower prices?
TIA....'lint.

Lint

"Briggs is going too do whatever benefits Briggs. Thier concern for thier dealers...or thier customers, doesn't run very deep."

This is typical of any large corporation, (case in point look at the oil companies. trace quarterly net earnings reports over the last 25 years, always larger profits reported, but never any losses) and your exactly right about the statement ".....because you guy wont play the game our way....." and why does industry do this? because they can. the large corporations know the little guy, be it an individual customer, or dealer, cant afford the time let alone money to battle over such a dispute so what do they have to lose? its not about building a quality product and backing up these products for dealer or the consumer anymore its all about the allmighty dollar no matter what the expense is to the consumer population, dealers included.

Funny you should mention the dealer/customer concern issue though, i  was involved in just such a discussion with someone the other day.Capitalism at its best (or worst?) dont get me wrong, i dont deny anyone the chance to make a fair profit, but when i look at commodity prices over the last 30 years my income hasnt increased commesurately with the increase of the majority of commodities. for example, fuel and machinery costs in the farming industry have increased anywhere from 500 to 1000 percent yet farm products have not increased by any measurable amount. wheat for example is still in the 3.00 average price range on the markets. it boils down to the fact, Industry can not afford to pay the workforce (consumer market) a decent wage, not because the dollars arnt there, but if they keep you in debt, there is a guarenteed work force, you have to take what ever morsels offered to survive. so based on the wage scale/commodity price relationship, who can blame many consumers for addressing low cost alternatives regardless of quality issues. couple that with manufacturing procedures that make repairs to many things difficult if not impossible, its no wonder we've become a "replace not repair" society, whether we like it or not. anyone who doubts this, try getting a repair part for a 3 year old toaster, or attemt to have a 2 year old, solid state tv repaired..(and thats MY rant for the evening, LOL)

Hmmm, really want to risk that for Chinese knock offs?

Let's see......Briggs, Tecumseh, Kohler, Kawasaki, Honda, Robin, Suzuki, Onan and Yamaha. Wonder what the market share is of all these engines verse the Chinese knock offs? My guess? If you have to resort to servicing those engines and risk relationships with manufacturers that supply most all your business,  you don't have enough business and are in trouble anyway. Servicing Chinese engines will only make your problems worse.

I'd bet that all th major manufacturers are having parts sourced in China already.

How many of you own IBM PC's? Or do you own "clones?"

Innovate, automate, or evaporate.

I'm sorry that this is going to be so political/anti-pc...

...The great Communist Chinese Clone debate.  Has there been an industry in North America that has not been affected by it?  This reverse engineering, as it's being called, is just a different way of saying that they are flat out stealing from Honda.  Honda did all the engineering, testing, prototyping, and manufacturing and the Chinese are doing nothing more than stealing all of that intelligence equity that Honda put into that design.  For the life of me, I cannot figure out why someone would willingly buy a Chinese Product when a perfectly good alternative that is Built in the USA (or Japan...) is available.  I see the same thing on similar web sites regarding the larger sub compact and compact tractors.  People are really proud of themselves for saving X amount of dollars for buying a Branson or Century Tractor (sounds American) built by the Chinese.  They think it's great they saved so much money as opposed to their foolish neighbor who shelled out the "big" dollars for a Deere, New Holland, or Kubota.  Does anyone have any idea what the Communist Chinese Government does with this money?  If you answered anything besides funneling into building up their military, then you are mostly wrong.  China is one of the worst environment polluters in the world, yet the left criticizes President Bush for not wanting to sign the Kyoto Agreement that would put tougher pollution restrictions on US Manufacturers and leave the 3rd world to do as they please.  I really wish people would start considering where things are made, as opposed to just being able to save a few bucks.  When you buy a foreign made product, your not only hurting domestic companies like GM and Briggs, your also hurting all of their suppliers.  Look at all of the components that go into a new Truck, Tractor, or riding mower.The Steel Mills and Aluminum Companies that supply the casting company with the raw material for an engine block, the plast injection molding companies, the trucking companies, the rubber and tire companies, the plant that makes the pistons, etc, etc,.  Please don't respond to this email and tell me everything's being outsourced to China anyway, as I'm already painfully aware.  I work in manufacturing and have seen the bankruptcies (LTV Steel, National Steel, Tower Automotive, Delphi) and consolidations (US Steel, ISG Steel) that are changing thousands of peoples lives.  I am someone who buys American as much as possible, and I can understand why people buy a Kubota or Honda because of their excellent reputations for quality.  China is something completely different.  It's basically slave labor with no benefits, retirement, etc. for the employees.  The next time you choose to buy something from China, just stop for a minute and think about all of your fellow American's lives that are being affected by it.  This country cannot survive as a service industry.

Thanks.

PaulR wrote:
Yes. We sell rapid prototyping machines, made by Stratasys in the USA. Many of them are exported to China, along with other US high-tech goods. so they've been affected positively. They have 55 patents on the machine and more pending, so they're not worried about clones.

If a company doesn't patent or otherwise protect a product on the market, there's nothing illegal about copying it. Many high tech companies don't seek patents on innovations because it alerts competitiors to the development.

Imagine what's going to happen when all those jobs (and money) get outsourced to India. The Indian middle class is currently 375 million - bigger than the North Ameican or European market by far. There are IMMENSE market opportunities opneing up to us.

PaulR wrote:
Its becoming increasingly difficult, if not impossible to find products manufactured totally in the U.S. many manufacturers purchase, or have assembled, individual parts for they're products, outside the U.S. for economic reasons, or on another level have moved tech support to low wage countries, thus affecting both the U.S. job market  and consumer purchasing power as well.  it ends up being a real catch 22 in that companies do this to save money, with what appears to be little or no concern for the job market here and the resulting consumer purchasing ability. (now before anyone goes off on this statement,) i realize its a competitive market, and brand A has to keep prices competitive with brand B to stay in business,  but the end result is we all suffer from downgrading of quality in many cases as well as the other economic effects this causes. the fact remains though due to cost competitifeness, the end result is loss of at home job loyalty to the american workforce/consumer. couple that with the increasing need for companies to cut back on wages, benifit packages etc. many consumers, like it or not look at lower cost alternatives to purchases as a means of making incomes cover all the necessary things.
I also believe in buying products made at home (so to speak) as well as keeping my purchases local.spending my tax dollars elsewhere does no good for the local community, but there are times when a product or service isnt available or the cost difference is so great shopping "out of town" is sometimes necessary.
Bottom line is its a two sided coin, not only do we need to think about how purchases from manufacturers outside the U.S. affect "fellow americans lives" U.S. manufacturers need to consider how moving operations or purchasing parts for they're products affects "fellow americans lives" also.  the obvious result is everyone is trying to save money where possible and everyone suffers because of it

Garandman

If you think that patents will protect your product from being cloned in China, you are dreaming.  Where do you think all those $50 Rolex Waches come from?  Don't you think that Rolex has all of their parts patented as well?  Just ask GM (Chery vs Chevy) and Toyota about how well patents in their country have protected their products from being cloned.

PaulR wrote:
Tell me the dollar damages? Versus GM's share of the Chinese market, for example?

How many Rolex clones do you own? Honda clones?

Tell me the dollar damages? Versus GM's share of the Chinese market, for example?
Bear with me, Gman.
Exactly how much is GM pulling out of the Chinese market? (You dont really have too give me figures.)
If China were such an attractive market for GM and the others, why isnt the smart money being dumped into GM stock? Are astute investors just waiting for the stocks too go lower?
I do live in Detroit, and I see a lot of places used for parking lots for stuff that isnt selling. (Not just GM lots.) Where are the Chinese hiding the cars that they are buying from us?
Or is this some kind of "trust me thing".......Everything will be great once we have the new world order in place.
I just seem too be hearing a lot of rhetoric about how the North American worker just isnt productive enough.....How he has too learn too compete harder. I mean does the line have too run twice as fast when the the lots are full.....or should he just accept the fact that he should take half the pay and benefits too work a 40 hr. week?
Color me stupid....but sometimes I just dont "get it".

I have inquired about parts & engine/machine support from XG & Lifan for these units. They say that Honda parts fit the engines. Why can't they provide parts themselves? Many units will be disassembled for parts if needed - you call that part support? The PC thing aside - these things are NOT worth buying...

Marty