Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Let's try this again.
There is a new buzzword that is currently making the rounds on internet forums, OPE dealerships, (and even some OPE manufacturers have let it slip from thier lips)...."Chinese Clones".
What are these "clones"?..... They are "reversed engineered" copys of equipment that have been proven products on the world market and sell for a fraction of what the originals sell for.

Has anyone had any experience with these products?

I ask because I got service bulletin from a well known engine manufacturer that basically said: "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."

I mean: "EGADS!" That puts me between a rock and a hard place.
Should I take these engines and equipment in for service and risk the ire of our largest supplier?
Or go with consumer demand for lower prices?
TIA....'lint.

I would say that for now, you should heed the warnings...but be mindful that draconian attitudes such as this rarely stay in place over time. Whether for good or not, the Chinese willingness to sell copycat products will eventually drive the marketplace to the point where this "well-known manufacturer"  and their competitors will have no choice but to partner with a Chinese company or lose their collective shirts.

Have you yet seen any of these clones? What do you think of the quality? Are you now getting requests to service them? Do you stand to lose any important business if you do not service them?

AZ

Stupid question, obvious answer.

Why would the Chinese want too partner with anyone? If they are producing basically the same product, for a much lower cost, wouldnt that give them the upper hand in the market place? Why take on a partner that is weaker than you. Just take them over and be done with it. It's not like you need them for any of thier designs or products......just copy whatever you please and sell it for less. Let the competitor pour his money into the research and delvelopemnt, let him do the market research, see what works and doesnt work....then just cherry pick the good stuff. Heck...just change your name too "Beijing and Shanghai" motorworks, and I am sure you could design a nice B&S trademark for yourself. At least 50% of the average consumers wouldnt know the difference.

Yes, I do get the stuff in for service. There isn't much I can do for the customer.
I cant do warrenty because I'm not authorized. I cant fix anything because I dont have parts access. I cant bring it into the shop because a rep might walk in.
The buisness that I do lose not servicing them isnt that much of a killer...... right now. What I do get are irrate customers that just want something fixed and dont understand why I send them down the road too another place that cant do anything about thier problem.
The problem in the service end of it is.......How much is a customer willing too spend having something repaired, when the cost of a replacement is so low.
You can justify a $100.00 repair bill on $400.00 piece of equipment, but a $100.00 bill on a $200.00 unit? Most people would opt for pitching it and starting over.

The quality of the stuff ???? It's junk too me...... But that's why I ask if anyone owns any of it. If they do.....and they are happy with it.....then who am I too judge?
Its a consumer driven market and it really doesnt matter in the end how I may look at it.

The tempting thing about clones is the price. Powerfist sells a 11hp motor (should fit on a snowblower) OHV and looks EXACTLY like the Honda, except the case color and finish. What's inside is what one doesn't see. Honda puts top quality parts inside but does the clone have the same quality? Maybe Honda makes the clone to grab the lower end market share. I asked the sales guy and all he said is they sell well and not one came back with any problems.  For me it's like buying a replica of a Rolex watch. (I never buy anything that is involved with copyright infringement). The replica watch is ok until it's wet or shaken. Not saying this is the case with the Powerfist Honda clone, that motor may be top notch. If it is, then that's a great deal, but if it's a lower quality knock off, the Honda is what I would buy though more expensive. I wonder if that 11hp OHV motor would work on the 20 year old 10hp L head Tecumseh. At least I know where to get parts for the old Tecumseh and just ordered a new carb. Going to get more info on the clone. I know Honda puts cast iron sleeves in their motors. I think the question to ask is, who makes them, where can I get parts, and who services them. If they cannot reply to that, no good buying something that has no service infrastructure. The last post got me thinking more about the service aspects rather than price.

I should proof read my posts. I said "I wonder if that 11hp OHV motor would work on the 20 year old 10hp L head Tecumseh." but ment, would the 11hp unit work on the 20 year old Snowblower that is currently using the 10hp Tecumseh. Thinking of getting a new Toro for next winter,  the steerable one.

"Why would the Chinese want too partner with anyone? If they are producing basically the same product, for a much lower cost"

Because achieving brand name recognition for their product, buying into an already established dealer network with parts support in place is a lot easier and faster than trying to label yourself as Beijing & Shanghai small engines and building it all from scratch.

AZ

AZ.
You make a good point.
The problem might be that Briggs could be the eaten instead of the eater with an alliance with the Chinese.
I'm sure they drool when they see the cheap labor force making engines and parts for them...but at the same time that labor force is going too want a piece of the pie too. They arent going too just give it away.
Although a Briggs/ China relationship sounds like a win-win for Briggs.....I think they are smart enough too see how that worked out with Homelites dealers network matched with the Chinese manufacturing system.
TTI has that North American dealer network with Homelite....(and other American brand names.)
Homelite once had stong relationship with its dealers and TTI certainly has done nothing too improve things. North American dealers are dumping them left and right. There used too be a Homelite dealer on every corner, now its getting real tough too resign current dealers and sign up any new ones. There goes easy warrenty service....There goes readily available parts...there goes a dealer sales network. You buy it and if you have a problem.....you throw it in the recycling bin.
The Chinese manufacturing system, although cheap, certainly doesnt seem do it very well.
They had Murray for what....a year (?) and managed too screw that deal up so bad....they sold at a bargain basement price too Briggs.
Either way it all pans out....I dont see it doing much good for the consumer, the dealers or the American economy.
Junk is junk no matter who's name is on it. (A biased opinion for sure.)

The sad thing about the clone business they get market share on price not quality. People not educated about product  "x" that looks like product "a" think they are getting a good deal when in reality the cheap junky version ends up costing more due to a higher failure rate. Cloned car parts, like front end parts or brake parts made with cheap materials cost life and limb let alone wearing out faster. I sell industrial warewash equipment and every time a customer buys a cheap unit, they pay more in the end, let alone the frustrations of owing it. I like a good deal as well as the next guy but I also think of supporting what's being made in country as it helps the local economy. When I buy multi tools or knives for example, I always get U.S.A brand names and assured of quality. Good steel equals good tools. I don't even consider cheap cloned tools in my work as it costs too much when it breaks in the middle of a job. Though I am in Canada, I sell Canadian made (thought the company is US owned) equipment. I know the quality, and my customers get what they pay for.

As far as the quality of "clones" goes, i think the adage, "if it sounds too good to be true it usually is" makes a valid point.

The real issue i see here though is the legality of the statement "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."
While i certainly could understand a manufacturer not wanting a dealer to handle his brand lookalikes,and a dealer being hesitant to sell a copycat brand, there is no legal base i'm aware of, that allows any supplier the right to dictate what a repair shop may or may not service.and particularly the statement "or that you have anything to do with them whatsoever" Does this mean if a customer comes in to buy a spark plug you have to ask what brand of equipment they are installing it in? i can see it now, "im sorry sir, i cant sell you a spark plug for your import equipment."

 my initial thought is this has the potential for a class action suit unless its contracturally agreed upon. Threatening established dealers, with removal of they're name brand dealership, isnt going to make the copycat problem go away, its going to take action by the manufacturers themselves based on legal action along the lines of copyright infringement to put a stop to problems of this nature. And ultimately, its not the dealers responsibility to do so. but thats just my opinion.

your right though, your in between a really big rock, and a really hard place. keep us posted?

SP.....right on the mark.
About 12 years ago Briggs sent out an almost identical "nasty note" regarding selling aftermarket parts.
Any dealer that sold them was going too loose thier franchise.....and they were going too die a slow and painful death.
They talked about the sacred alliance between the dealer and the company.....and how they were going too take care of the dealer....blah, blah, blah!
The courts said....nope, not going too happen that way, you dealer guys go ahead and sell whatever you please!
So Briggs says.....because you guy wont play the game our way.....we're not gonna give you guys exclusive rights too selling our parts! So there!
So today Briggs is all big and grinnie because they can sell their air filters and the best selling parts too any bigbox with some shelvespace....and the dealer is stuck with the slow moving crap and the freight and handling charges too boot.
Briggs is going too do whatever benefits Briggs.
Thier concern for thier dealers...or thier customers, doesn't run very deep.
And the clones care even less.
Combine the two...... with one making the junk and the other selling it....and I'm stuck wasting my day waiting for parts too come from Yangtang Province....while the consumer is standing  butt deep in snow, with a coal shovel in thier hands,  wishing they had spent the extra cash too clear thier driveway.
(Just a rant ...sorry, guys.)

Lint

"Briggs is going too do whatever benefits Briggs. Thier concern for thier dealers...or thier customers, doesn't run very deep."

This is typical of any large corporation, (case in point look at the oil companies. trace quarterly net earnings reports over the last 25 years, always larger profits reported, but never any losses) and your exactly right about the statement ".....because you guy wont play the game our way....." and why does industry do this? because they can. the large corporations know the little guy, be it an individual customer, or dealer, cant afford the time let alone money to battle over such a dispute so what do they have to lose? its not about building a quality product and backing up these products for dealer or the consumer anymore its all about the allmighty dollar no matter what the expense is to the consumer population, dealers included.

Funny you should mention the dealer/customer concern issue though, i  was involved in just such a discussion with someone the other day.Capitalism at its best (or worst?) dont get me wrong, i dont deny anyone the chance to make a fair profit, but when i look at commodity prices over the last 30 years my income hasnt increased commesurately with the increase of the majority of commodities. for example, fuel and machinery costs in the farming industry have increased anywhere from 500 to 1000 percent yet farm products have not increased by any measurable amount. wheat for example is still in the 3.00 average price range on the markets. it boils down to the fact, Industry can not afford to pay the workforce (consumer market) a decent wage, not because the dollars arnt there, but if they keep you in debt, there is a guarenteed work force, you have to take what ever morsels offered to survive. so based on the wage scale/commodity price relationship, who can blame many consumers for addressing low cost alternatives regardless of quality issues. couple that with manufacturing procedures that make repairs to many things difficult if not impossible, its no wonder we've become a "replace not repair" society, whether we like it or not. anyone who doubts this, try getting a repair part for a 3 year old toaster, or attemt to have a 2 year old, solid state tv repaired..(and thats MY rant for the evening, LOL)

Hmmm, really want to risk that for Chinese knock offs?

Let's see......Briggs, Tecumseh, Kohler, Kawasaki, Honda, Robin, Suzuki, Onan and Yamaha. Wonder what the market share is of all these engines verse the Chinese knock offs? My guess? If you have to resort to servicing those engines and risk relationships with manufacturers that supply most all your business,  you don't have enough business and are in trouble anyway. Servicing Chinese engines will only make your problems worse.

I'd bet that all th major manufacturers are having parts sourced in China already.

How many of you own IBM PC's? Or do you own "clones?"

Innovate, automate, or evaporate.

I'm sorry that this is going to be so political/anti-pc...

...The great Communist Chinese Clone debate.  Has there been an industry in North America that has not been affected by it?  This reverse engineering, as it's being called, is just a different way of saying that they are flat out stealing from Honda.  Honda did all the engineering, testing, prototyping, and manufacturing and the Chinese are doing nothing more than stealing all of that intelligence equity that Honda put into that design.  For the life of me, I cannot figure out why someone would willingly buy a Chinese Product when a perfectly good alternative that is Built in the USA (or Japan...) is available.  I see the same thing on similar web sites regarding the larger sub compact and compact tractors.  People are really proud of themselves for saving X amount of dollars for buying a Branson or Century Tractor (sounds American) built by the Chinese.  They think it's great they saved so much money as opposed to their foolish neighbor who shelled out the "big" dollars for a Deere, New Holland, or Kubota.  Does anyone have any idea what the Communist Chinese Government does with this money?  If you answered anything besides funneling into building up their military, then you are mostly wrong.  China is one of the worst environment polluters in the world, yet the left criticizes President Bush for not wanting to sign the Kyoto Agreement that would put tougher pollution restrictions on US Manufacturers and leave the 3rd world to do as they please.  I really wish people would start considering where things are made, as opposed to just being able to save a few bucks.  When you buy a foreign made product, your not only hurting domestic companies like GM and Briggs, your also hurting all of their suppliers.  Look at all of the components that go into a new Truck, Tractor, or riding mower.The Steel Mills and Aluminum Companies that supply the casting company with the raw material for an engine block, the plast injection molding companies, the trucking companies, the rubber and tire companies, the plant that makes the pistons, etc, etc,.  Please don't respond to this email and tell me everything's being outsourced to China anyway, as I'm already painfully aware.  I work in manufacturing and have seen the bankruptcies (LTV Steel, National Steel, Tower Automotive, Delphi) and consolidations (US Steel, ISG Steel) that are changing thousands of peoples lives.  I am someone who buys American as much as possible, and I can understand why people buy a Kubota or Honda because of their excellent reputations for quality.  China is something completely different.  It's basically slave labor with no benefits, retirement, etc. for the employees.  The next time you choose to buy something from China, just stop for a minute and think about all of your fellow American's lives that are being affected by it.  This country cannot survive as a service industry.

Thanks.

PaulR wrote:
Yes. We sell rapid prototyping machines, made by Stratasys in the USA. Many of them are exported to China, along with other US high-tech goods. so they've been affected positively. They have 55 patents on the machine and more pending, so they're not worried about clones.

If a company doesn't patent or otherwise protect a product on the market, there's nothing illegal about copying it. Many high tech companies don't seek patents on innovations because it alerts competitiors to the development.

Imagine what's going to happen when all those jobs (and money) get outsourced to India. The Indian middle class is currently 375 million - bigger than the North Ameican or European market by far. There are IMMENSE market opportunities opneing up to us.

PaulR wrote:
Its becoming increasingly difficult, if not impossible to find products manufactured totally in the U.S. many manufacturers purchase, or have assembled, individual parts for they're products, outside the U.S. for economic reasons, or on another level have moved tech support to low wage countries, thus affecting both the U.S. job market  and consumer purchasing power as well.  it ends up being a real catch 22 in that companies do this to save money, with what appears to be little or no concern for the job market here and the resulting consumer purchasing ability. (now before anyone goes off on this statement,) i realize its a competitive market, and brand A has to keep prices competitive with brand B to stay in business,  but the end result is we all suffer from downgrading of quality in many cases as well as the other economic effects this causes. the fact remains though due to cost competitifeness, the end result is loss of at home job loyalty to the american workforce/consumer. couple that with the increasing need for companies to cut back on wages, benifit packages etc. many consumers, like it or not look at lower cost alternatives to purchases as a means of making incomes cover all the necessary things.
I also believe in buying products made at home (so to speak) as well as keeping my purchases local.spending my tax dollars elsewhere does no good for the local community, but there are times when a product or service isnt available or the cost difference is so great shopping "out of town" is sometimes necessary.
Bottom line is its a two sided coin, not only do we need to think about how purchases from manufacturers outside the U.S. affect "fellow americans lives" U.S. manufacturers need to consider how moving operations or purchasing parts for they're products affects "fellow americans lives" also.  the obvious result is everyone is trying to save money where possible and everyone suffers because of it

Garandman

If you think that patents will protect your product from being cloned in China, you are dreaming.  Where do you think all those $50 Rolex Waches come from?  Don't you think that Rolex has all of their parts patented as well?  Just ask GM (Chery vs Chevy) and Toyota about how well patents in their country have protected their products from being cloned.

PaulR wrote:
Tell me the dollar damages? Versus GM's share of the Chinese market, for example?

How many Rolex clones do you own? Honda clones?

Tell me the dollar damages? Versus GM's share of the Chinese market, for example?
Bear with me, Gman.
Exactly how much is GM pulling out of the Chinese market? (You dont really have too give me figures.)
If China were such an attractive market for GM and the others, why isnt the smart money being dumped into GM stock? Are astute investors just waiting for the stocks too go lower?
I do live in Detroit, and I see a lot of places used for parking lots for stuff that isnt selling. (Not just GM lots.) Where are the Chinese hiding the cars that they are buying from us?
Or is this some kind of "trust me thing".......Everything will be great once we have the new world order in place.
I just seem too be hearing a lot of rhetoric about how the North American worker just isnt productive enough.....How he has too learn too compete harder. I mean does the line have too run twice as fast when the the lots are full.....or should he just accept the fact that he should take half the pay and benefits too work a 40 hr. week?
Color me stupid....but sometimes I just dont "get it".

I have inquired about parts & engine/machine support from XG & Lifan for these units. They say that Honda parts fit the engines. Why can't they provide parts themselves? Many units will be disassembled for parts if needed - you call that part support? The PC thing aside - these things are NOT worth buying...

Marty

Garandman wrote:

G-Man,

According to the article in this link, I guess we're only talking a few billion dollars.  Yes, that's a B for billions - $1,000,000,000.00....

There's a certain amount of irony (or is it coincidence) in the link when I first pulled it up...the page was sponsored by Walmart, a company I consider to be the biggest Communist sellout/sympathizer in this country...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1323136&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Screw the chinese.

Intellectual property protection is one reason why  President Bush is in China right now.

Once the Chinese go beyond copying existing designs or manufacturing new designs provided them, they will have a compelling desire to enforce intellectual property rights.

When an American business sells a $10 product made in China, $6 or more goes to Americans and $4 or less goes to the manufacturer - sometimes as little as $1. Better to face the competition now and improve to beat it  than become France.

There was an article on NPR about auto parts supplies. They visited a plant in China and one in the US. Basically the American worker is as productive as 6-10 of the Chinese workers. The Chinese plant owner expressed admiration for the American manufacturers, and was incredulous that they could ever compete.

American vs. Chinese Manufacturing: Which Is Stronger?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991996

Good question on what to do with them.

But with the emminent death of Tecumseh, I'm sure there will be a flood of clones.

I do have experience with them. So far just with a couple from the same brand. They do seem to fare fairly well, in my experience.

Hi Guys-

Garandman wrote:The Chinese plant owner expressed admiration for the American manufacturers, and was incredulous that they could ever compete.

FALSE MODESTY!!!!!!

1)I have a friend with a small machine shop that does precision work .His busness card says CNC Machining and Assembly's.His work is absolutely meticulous. The Chinese have just about put him out of business.

He gets plenty of prototype work which is a pain in the a$$ . Once the design is set the production goes to China. According to him the Chinese work is as good as the customer is willing to pay for. The money of course is in the production work.

2)I am an avid saltwater surf fisherman. We use a high end reel that costs depending on size between $500 and $700 .The New England based manufacturer was bought out by an Oklahoma  company and moved to Tulsa ostensibly because of the large Aero Space machining facilities available.. Within a year the company had built their own machine shop in China with "same time" closed circuit TV supervision of the factory floor.The new reels are indistinguishable from their American made predicessors. 

Whether it's sneakers or machine parts or ope engines we can't compete with labor that is willing to work for low wages.Our policy of no or low tarriffs is killing us.

Marc

Hi Guys-

THIS BOARD NEEDS AN EDIT BUTTON-

My point is that if the customer wants to pay for it the Chinese products are as good as anybody's. Because their labor is so cheap their price for high quality is drasticly  less.

Sorry for the rant,

Marc

On topic, but a bit off discussion.  

Want an inside look at China, then keep your eyes out for a 4 part TV mini-series documentary called China Rises.   www.cbc.ca/chinarises

It is an unbelievable production.   You think those Wal Mart documentarys are damming, you ain't seen nothing.   The level of pollution, corruption, etc, etc. that China simply does not care about is staggering.    A great watch. 

Hay, jeremyprice,

    What's the detail on your engine?  Is it a Zhongshan?  How will you deal with parts?  I have seen ads for some snowblowers guaranting parts from stock in the US. 

    I've owned three Chinese motorcycles and they were fantastic (all eventually stolen) but I put many miles on each of them over very rough road conditions.  I would have great confidence in any engine made by their better makers.  There are lots of makers but what ends up in the US is probably ok.  I only name I recognize that's sold here is Zhongshan and even they are not top of the line in China. 

   I"ve got a 1974 724 Toro in excellent shape that's now blowing lots of oil out of the breather tube.  It burrows into a pile better than my 1997 Toro 824XL.  Getting a replacement engine for 100 would be a tempting prospect.

trouts

  

buttlint,  in regards to the first post about the clones and selling, working  on them.  we are an authorized briggs, tecumseh,kohler,kawasaki, robin subaru  sales and service dealer.     all my sales reps said they CAN NOT stop us from working on these engines,  if we can get parts for them it money in our pocket.   as far as selling them,  we as a dealership would not do this to our customers.  these may be reliable engines but as far as i can do here in minnesota i cant find parts to repair.  when my customer comes in for a part he/ she wants it now.  my job is to get this part a.s.a.p.  this is called customer service..... this is my job.  if i want repeat customers i need to do this.  

Blue Max Chinese engine made by Jiangdong.  It's "modeled" after the Honda GX200 but I'm not sure if it's a full clone.  There's an interesting piece below from a go-kart club which races these engines. 

Some comments found online at:
http://www.thunderhill-speedway.com/Blue%20OHV%20engine%20rules.html

In an effort to keep Kart Racing fun and affordable, Thunder Hill Speedway is introducing the use of a very affordable and reliable engine. This engine is a 6.5 horsepower copy of a Honda engine. Other tracks across the nation have been using this engine for over a year with great results in reliability, performance and very competitive racing. It is working the best to leave the engine as Box Stock as possible. At Thunder Hill Speedway we will have an adult Flat Kart class just for these engines and we will also allow this engine to be used in our Novice class and Junior Wing/Box Stock Wing Class as per the rules below. These engines are available right now at Harbor Freight Stores for only $159!!! Sometimes on sale for only $129!!!(Example: Harbor Freight in Eau Claire, WI)

There are several sellers of these engines on EBay for 109 to 149 with shipping ranging from about $25-50.  I've written to several of the sellers to ask if there are dealers for warranty work and parts around the Boston area.  One of the EBay sellers lists that for warranty or parts you have to go back to the distributor.  But possibly there are enough matching GX200 parts for standard use replacements. ??

SPECIFICATIONS
 
Starting: Recoil Pull Start
Fuel Consumption: .51 GPH
General Use Engine Oil: SAE 10W-30 API SJ or SL
Cooling System: Forced Air
PTO Shaft Rotation: Counterclockwise
Ignition System: Transistorized Magneto
Fuel Tank Capacity: .95 Gal
Displacement: 12 Cu-In
Engine Type: Single Cycle, 4 Stroke, OHV
Dimensions: 12"L x 14.3"W x 13.2"H
Crankshaft PTO: 2-7/16" x 3/4 Diameter Tapped 5/16 x 24 UNF
HP Rating: 6.4 HP @ 3600 RPM
Controls: Throttle/Fuel/Choke/On-Off
Engine Oil Capacity: .63Qt
Spark Plug: BP6ES
Idle Speed: 1400 RPM (+200/-150)
Fuel: 86 Octane or Higher Unleaded
Max Torque: 9.76 Ft/Lbs @ 2500 RPM
Shipping Weight: 37 lbs.
HDC Item: 03163

* HORIZONTAL SHAFT
(2-1/2" long x 3/4" diameter with 3/16 inch keyway & threaded end)

* SHAFT ROTATION (COUNTERCLOCKWISE)

* CONTROLS ( THROTTLE / CHOKE / ON-OFF)

* APPROX MOTOR SIZE (L 12.3 x W 14.8 x H 13.2)

* MOUNTING PLATE
( Approx size 7" x 4" total size see pics)
( holes approx 6.25 long way and 3.25 short way apart)

Harbor Freight sells these over the counter for 129.

The manual for the 6.5:
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/96000-96999/96549.pdf

After a little more checking several race tracks have setup racing classes for these engines.

Harbor Freight sells the engine labeled Central Machinery engines and the manual on their web page says Central Machinery but the motor is made by Jiangdong manf in China. There seems to be a blizzard of Chinese companies that have partnered with Honda for the rights. But, given how Chinese companies sometimes work one umbrella company could have the rights and have many seemingly assocciated companies making the engine that are really the same company.

Harbor stocks Jiangdong made 11hp's for 269 and a 13 for 299. Parts can be gotten through Harbor, direct, or from several other sources via mail. I forgot to ask Harbor if they had on-hand stock.

Some places are selling the 6.5 for 109 and if you lived close to them could pick one up to avoid shipping. One poster picked one up on sale for 99 but I have not found one that low yet.

The 11hp seems like it would be a great candidate for an old Toro 724 frame.
trouts