Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Let's try this again.
There is a new buzzword that is currently making the rounds on internet forums, OPE dealerships, (and even some OPE manufacturers have let it slip from thier lips)...."Chinese Clones".
What are these "clones"?..... They are "reversed engineered" copys of equipment that have been proven products on the world market and sell for a fraction of what the originals sell for.

Has anyone had any experience with these products?

I ask because I got service bulletin from a well known engine manufacturer that basically said: "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."

I mean: "EGADS!" That puts me between a rock and a hard place.
Should I take these engines and equipment in for service and risk the ire of our largest supplier?
Or go with consumer demand for lower prices?
TIA....'lint.

"Why would the Chinese want too partner with anyone? If they are producing basically the same product, for a much lower cost"

Because achieving brand name recognition for their product, buying into an already established dealer network with parts support in place is a lot easier and faster than trying to label yourself as Beijing & Shanghai small engines and building it all from scratch.

AZ

AZ.
You make a good point.
The problem might be that Briggs could be the eaten instead of the eater with an alliance with the Chinese.
I'm sure they drool when they see the cheap labor force making engines and parts for them...but at the same time that labor force is going too want a piece of the pie too. They arent going too just give it away.
Although a Briggs/ China relationship sounds like a win-win for Briggs.....I think they are smart enough too see how that worked out with Homelites dealers network matched with the Chinese manufacturing system.
TTI has that North American dealer network with Homelite....(and other American brand names.)
Homelite once had stong relationship with its dealers and TTI certainly has done nothing too improve things. North American dealers are dumping them left and right. There used too be a Homelite dealer on every corner, now its getting real tough too resign current dealers and sign up any new ones. There goes easy warrenty service....There goes readily available parts...there goes a dealer sales network. You buy it and if you have a problem.....you throw it in the recycling bin.
The Chinese manufacturing system, although cheap, certainly doesnt seem do it very well.
They had Murray for what....a year (?) and managed too screw that deal up so bad....they sold at a bargain basement price too Briggs.
Either way it all pans out....I dont see it doing much good for the consumer, the dealers or the American economy.
Junk is junk no matter who's name is on it. (A biased opinion for sure.)

The sad thing about the clone business they get market share on price not quality. People not educated about product  "x" that looks like product "a" think they are getting a good deal when in reality the cheap junky version ends up costing more due to a higher failure rate. Cloned car parts, like front end parts or brake parts made with cheap materials cost life and limb let alone wearing out faster. I sell industrial warewash equipment and every time a customer buys a cheap unit, they pay more in the end, let alone the frustrations of owing it. I like a good deal as well as the next guy but I also think of supporting what's being made in country as it helps the local economy. When I buy multi tools or knives for example, I always get U.S.A brand names and assured of quality. Good steel equals good tools. I don't even consider cheap cloned tools in my work as it costs too much when it breaks in the middle of a job. Though I am in Canada, I sell Canadian made (thought the company is US owned) equipment. I know the quality, and my customers get what they pay for.

As far as the quality of "clones" goes, i think the adage, "if it sounds too good to be true it usually is" makes a valid point.

The real issue i see here though is the legality of the statement "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."
While i certainly could understand a manufacturer not wanting a dealer to handle his brand lookalikes,and a dealer being hesitant to sell a copycat brand, there is no legal base i'm aware of, that allows any supplier the right to dictate what a repair shop may or may not service.and particularly the statement "or that you have anything to do with them whatsoever" Does this mean if a customer comes in to buy a spark plug you have to ask what brand of equipment they are installing it in? i can see it now, "im sorry sir, i cant sell you a spark plug for your import equipment."

 my initial thought is this has the potential for a class action suit unless its contracturally agreed upon. Threatening established dealers, with removal of they're name brand dealership, isnt going to make the copycat problem go away, its going to take action by the manufacturers themselves based on legal action along the lines of copyright infringement to put a stop to problems of this nature. And ultimately, its not the dealers responsibility to do so. but thats just my opinion.

your right though, your in between a really big rock, and a really hard place. keep us posted?

SP.....right on the mark.
About 12 years ago Briggs sent out an almost identical "nasty note" regarding selling aftermarket parts.
Any dealer that sold them was going too loose thier franchise.....and they were going too die a slow and painful death.
They talked about the sacred alliance between the dealer and the company.....and how they were going too take care of the dealer....blah, blah, blah!
The courts said....nope, not going too happen that way, you dealer guys go ahead and sell whatever you please!
So Briggs says.....because you guy wont play the game our way.....we're not gonna give you guys exclusive rights too selling our parts! So there!
So today Briggs is all big and grinnie because they can sell their air filters and the best selling parts too any bigbox with some shelvespace....and the dealer is stuck with the slow moving crap and the freight and handling charges too boot.
Briggs is going too do whatever benefits Briggs.
Thier concern for thier dealers...or thier customers, doesn't run very deep.
And the clones care even less.
Combine the two...... with one making the junk and the other selling it....and I'm stuck wasting my day waiting for parts too come from Yangtang Province....while the consumer is standing  butt deep in snow, with a coal shovel in thier hands,  wishing they had spent the extra cash too clear thier driveway.
(Just a rant ...sorry, guys.)

Lint

"Briggs is going too do whatever benefits Briggs. Thier concern for thier dealers...or thier customers, doesn't run very deep."

This is typical of any large corporation, (case in point look at the oil companies. trace quarterly net earnings reports over the last 25 years, always larger profits reported, but never any losses) and your exactly right about the statement ".....because you guy wont play the game our way....." and why does industry do this? because they can. the large corporations know the little guy, be it an individual customer, or dealer, cant afford the time let alone money to battle over such a dispute so what do they have to lose? its not about building a quality product and backing up these products for dealer or the consumer anymore its all about the allmighty dollar no matter what the expense is to the consumer population, dealers included.

Funny you should mention the dealer/customer concern issue though, i  was involved in just such a discussion with someone the other day.Capitalism at its best (or worst?) dont get me wrong, i dont deny anyone the chance to make a fair profit, but when i look at commodity prices over the last 30 years my income hasnt increased commesurately with the increase of the majority of commodities. for example, fuel and machinery costs in the farming industry have increased anywhere from 500 to 1000 percent yet farm products have not increased by any measurable amount. wheat for example is still in the 3.00 average price range on the markets. it boils down to the fact, Industry can not afford to pay the workforce (consumer market) a decent wage, not because the dollars arnt there, but if they keep you in debt, there is a guarenteed work force, you have to take what ever morsels offered to survive. so based on the wage scale/commodity price relationship, who can blame many consumers for addressing low cost alternatives regardless of quality issues. couple that with manufacturing procedures that make repairs to many things difficult if not impossible, its no wonder we've become a "replace not repair" society, whether we like it or not. anyone who doubts this, try getting a repair part for a 3 year old toaster, or attemt to have a 2 year old, solid state tv repaired..(and thats MY rant for the evening, LOL)

Hmmm, really want to risk that for Chinese knock offs?

Let's see......Briggs, Tecumseh, Kohler, Kawasaki, Honda, Robin, Suzuki, Onan and Yamaha. Wonder what the market share is of all these engines verse the Chinese knock offs? My guess? If you have to resort to servicing those engines and risk relationships with manufacturers that supply most all your business,  you don't have enough business and are in trouble anyway. Servicing Chinese engines will only make your problems worse.

I'd bet that all th major manufacturers are having parts sourced in China already.

How many of you own IBM PC's? Or do you own "clones?"

Innovate, automate, or evaporate.

I'm sorry that this is going to be so political/anti-pc...

...The great Communist Chinese Clone debate.  Has there been an industry in North America that has not been affected by it?  This reverse engineering, as it's being called, is just a different way of saying that they are flat out stealing from Honda.  Honda did all the engineering, testing, prototyping, and manufacturing and the Chinese are doing nothing more than stealing all of that intelligence equity that Honda put into that design.  For the life of me, I cannot figure out why someone would willingly buy a Chinese Product when a perfectly good alternative that is Built in the USA (or Japan...) is available.  I see the same thing on similar web sites regarding the larger sub compact and compact tractors.  People are really proud of themselves for saving X amount of dollars for buying a Branson or Century Tractor (sounds American) built by the Chinese.  They think it's great they saved so much money as opposed to their foolish neighbor who shelled out the "big" dollars for a Deere, New Holland, or Kubota.  Does anyone have any idea what the Communist Chinese Government does with this money?  If you answered anything besides funneling into building up their military, then you are mostly wrong.  China is one of the worst environment polluters in the world, yet the left criticizes President Bush for not wanting to sign the Kyoto Agreement that would put tougher pollution restrictions on US Manufacturers and leave the 3rd world to do as they please.  I really wish people would start considering where things are made, as opposed to just being able to save a few bucks.  When you buy a foreign made product, your not only hurting domestic companies like GM and Briggs, your also hurting all of their suppliers.  Look at all of the components that go into a new Truck, Tractor, or riding mower.The Steel Mills and Aluminum Companies that supply the casting company with the raw material for an engine block, the plast injection molding companies, the trucking companies, the rubber and tire companies, the plant that makes the pistons, etc, etc,.  Please don't respond to this email and tell me everything's being outsourced to China anyway, as I'm already painfully aware.  I work in manufacturing and have seen the bankruptcies (LTV Steel, National Steel, Tower Automotive, Delphi) and consolidations (US Steel, ISG Steel) that are changing thousands of peoples lives.  I am someone who buys American as much as possible, and I can understand why people buy a Kubota or Honda because of their excellent reputations for quality.  China is something completely different.  It's basically slave labor with no benefits, retirement, etc. for the employees.  The next time you choose to buy something from China, just stop for a minute and think about all of your fellow American's lives that are being affected by it.  This country cannot survive as a service industry.

Thanks.

PaulR wrote:
Yes. We sell rapid prototyping machines, made by Stratasys in the USA. Many of them are exported to China, along with other US high-tech goods. so they've been affected positively. They have 55 patents on the machine and more pending, so they're not worried about clones.

If a company doesn't patent or otherwise protect a product on the market, there's nothing illegal about copying it. Many high tech companies don't seek patents on innovations because it alerts competitiors to the development.

Imagine what's going to happen when all those jobs (and money) get outsourced to India. The Indian middle class is currently 375 million - bigger than the North Ameican or European market by far. There are IMMENSE market opportunities opneing up to us.