Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hey Guys,
I have an old, but mint looking 1987 front wheel drive Toro push mower, model 16775.  It is a 21" mower that has I believe the original 3.5 hp engine on it.

It seems to burn a bit of oil, so I always keep a close watch on it, adding some almost every time I use it........(30 wt is a cheap fix)

I checked it today before I used it, and the oil was just above the full line.  I just use this to trim around trees, etc. Today while mowing, I noticed it started making a faint tapping noise, not loud, but enough to be a bit concerned.
When I was done trimming, I let it cool down, then tipped it on the opposite side of the spark plug, as I have done in the past.  This time, oil started comming out of where the air cleaner is.
I set it back down, cleaned up the now soaked foam thing and the plastic thing the foam sits in, and rechecked the oil level.
To my suprise, the oil level is now much higher then before.
I'll let it settle some more.
Question is, do I have anything to be concerned about?  I know that this is not concidered a high end mower, but I do like the front wheel drive for trimming around trees. The deck is new looking, although I wish the engine was a bit more powerful.

Should I start thinking about getting another mower??

Frank D.

Ok........I went back and checked it now, a few hours later, and the oil is down back to just above the full line, so appearently not too much leaked out.
I think it is burning a bit of oil, you see blueish smoke sometimes, but not always.....it is not noticeable.

I still do not know that the slight banging/tapping noise is, but it still seems to run ok.........it is not the blade or spindle I do not think........

Well, off to work...working a triple.....38 hours straight........get home Sunday morning.....See ya!

Frank D.

Hi Frank...

No technical knowledge or answer from me...

In simple terms... Sounds like it  " S T B " ... " Sh*#   The  Bed "...

Dave...

That's a long shift, but you mostly wait around for the fires I guess.  I have a Murray walk behind that someone stood on top of to use as a stepping stool, but broke the thin metal where the deck is cut out for the discharge.  Sometimes it makes a tapping/vibrating sound like the blade spindle is warped, but it's just the two pieces of metal hitting.  It's probably just 2 pieces of metal hitting or something is coming loose? 

I have a more technical analysis for you. I have a Murray RER with a B&S engine on it. It exibited the same symptoms because it was old and needed a valve and ring job done on it. This was never done, so, the engine started to really wear out. It started burning more oil than normal and eventualy, within a short time, started to have a knocking sound . From your statement, it sounds like your engine has already overheated some due to impropper lubercation and is now running on its last leg. The knocking sound you here, I have no doubt is the cause of the pisten rod hitting the cylinder wall. If you keep running that engine in its current condition, it will no doubt end up like My B&S engine on my Murray RER. Basically, I got a engine seisure, than when I unseised it, it ran for a couple more hours than the pisten rod broke in the cylinder. You want my advice? Buy yourself a new mower.

Well, I gotta be to work by 5:30, so I have time for a quickie here.........
Boy, that's doom and gloom......but I appreciate the honest help.
It is running fine now, except for the not very loud at all noise......perhaps it is the "death rattle".

Maybe I can put another engine on it.....I'll start looking around for some used mowers.....

Ajace, it is a long shift, but we do much more then fires......we also run paramedic ambulances and do ALS transports.
In fact, we are the busiest Dept per employee in the state......we avg 18 calls per day, about 8000 per year, with a minimum of 12 person on duty crews.
I expect this weekend will be busy........

Have a blessed, safe weekend.

Frank D.

P.S....edited for typos......gotta go!

That IS very busy.  I really have very high respect for our firefighters. 

Thats a LOT of hours Frank - stay safe my friend! :)

Actually, if this carb has a float bowl, I suspect that the float has sunk or something is keeping fuel flowing. This would explain your abnormally high oil level, as the fuel begins to enter the crankcase. Especially since you said that it uses oil, the level should get lower, not RISE! Pull the dipstick & smell it - if it smells like gas, then the carb needs a little attention.

Marty 8}

Frank,
On that particular model, tipping it the way you did (the correct way in most cases) oil would be directed toward the breather assembly located on top of the engine.
That breather has a hose that leads too the air filter box. The thin, warm oil flowed real easy through the breather and into the filter box.
It is not a big deal.....and caused no harm, other than an oily mess.
On those TVS engines...on that Toro model.... "the sprark plug up" law, really doesnt work that well because of the location of the breather.
I tip them with the "carb down" rule.
As far as oil consumption....it is a 20 year old machine......
But.....you could have a problem with that crankcase breather being bad.....whether replacing it would be worth the time and trouble is another question. And not seeing the machine....or knowing its history....that's a tough call too make.
Burning oil can be a lot of diffent things.....breathers, loose head bolts, valve guides, seats, rings, cylinder wear, overfilling...etc.
Some fixes are easy and cheap...some are difficult and expensive.
Do you have anthing too be concerned about?     No....as long as it starts and runs and does what you expect of it....I dont see a problem. HTH.

Thanks for helping to keep us safe Frank. I think I would be a little concerned about the tapping. I don't know but the oil in the breather might be able to be related. But.
Maybe it was warmer than usual when you tipped it and the oil was still very thin and ran out more easily than usual.
Maybe the engine stopped in a little different place and let the oil run into the breather because the intake valve was in a little different spot.
Maybe you have some fuel in the oil and that it making it thin, and causing the tapping..
Do you have some pictures or model numbers of the engine?
Is the fuel tank above the carb, or the carb above the fuel tank?
Always a firm believer in smelling your dipstick, no reason not to do it when you check the level, maybe a feel too. Not a big whiff, just a smell.
I thought lint or chris said to flip with the spark plug up if in doubt?
Fuel in the crankcase and/or tapping is a good reason to check it out or have it checked out to prevent damage, IMO.
No sense in letting a mower you like, blow up.

Did I miss the pics of the Bug?

God Bless Frank for doing what you do...and stay safe yourself. 

If the machine has been burning oil for a while you may have a carbon buildup on the head and the top of the piston.
The tapping that you hear could be the top of the piston slapping the carbon buildup.
The carbon can build up and pieces will break off....get spit out of the exhaust....get caught under the valve faces...shift around to different spots...restick itself in other areas.....do all kinds of different things...sounds will come and go. Sometimes it will just be a tapping noise...and sometimes it will sound like you are about too blow a rod.  Depending on diffenent conditions....the carbon can get rock hard....or soften and turn into a soft goo....like opium.
That is a simple enough fix...just remove the head and decarbonize. If its never been done in 18 years...you might be at that point.
Doing that will also let you see what shape the cylinder and valves are in.
All it will cost is the price of a head gasket and if you really want too be frugal...and if the gasket looks ok....just reuse it. (Although that might get you in trouble with the OPE authorities.) God forbid.

faithfulFrank wrote:

See you Monday night Frank. LOL  

Oh, use, add oil, use, add oil, repeat till fade. 

Hey Guys!
Good to be back.......just got home this morning.  Happy 4th!!
I actually got more overtime when I was at work, so I worked thru another 24 hours, making it 62 hours straight.
I was also offered working today, which would have made it 86 hours, but in the interest of keeping a marriage, I declined......

Thanks for all your help here with this mower....I think I will investigate further........I think it is worth it.

I'll try to post some pics of the bug also......it's about the size of my eXmark, so it may qualify for OPE.....

Maybe I'll get to check the mower out more today...back to work at 5 tonight though.....gotta go babysit the city's fireworks tonight...fun duty.

Have a blessed and safe holiday!

Frank D.

Although you don't fight fires in my area, I got to still say thanks for doing this.  Please enjoy your 4th, as I sure will mine. 

Frank,

Overtime!!! Buy a new Toro.... I had an older one just like your's and got tired of fiddleing with it  and replaced it last year. ...I got some OT myself this weekend. The daughter needs a new bike so the OT was timely.

                                                                                                                       Dan

Dan,
Maybe you're right, but I think I'll fiddle with it awhile longer, while keeping an eye open for a replacement.
We finally got some much needed rain yesterday, so I know it will be time again to mow in the next day or two......
i'll try out the mower again and report the results.

The oil is back to the normal correct level, I think it was just goofy for awhile because of the tipping.
i'll listen again for the tapping.  If it continues to work, I will then perhaps ask you all about doing that valve and ring job thing....
A friend of mine has a mower that has a bad deck, maybe I should check on swapping engines....although I think mine has a pully above the blade to run the front wheel drive, so they may not be compatable..........I'd have to look.  I do not think it is worth putting too much money into it. I do wish the engine was a bit more powerful then 3.5 hp.  The deck still looks brand new, and I do like the mower a lot, so maybe it is worth taking apart and learning something.

Maybe the whole mower will just blow up the next time I use it, and I'll have to get a different one......although I always thought that if i was good at keeping oil in the thing, it would never go bad on me.......

In any event, I depend on you guys to educate me.......i'll keep you posted.

Frank D.