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The Vacuum Cleaner Test (Read 4197 times)
Carmine_Difazio
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #30 - 11/13/06 at 12:53pm
 
Dual:
 
Isn't your vacuum of choice a canister?  Not uprights.    
 
I recall a younger Dualcyclone who sold Air-Ways (even has a limited edition in his honor) and then Rainbows because he believed PASSIONATELY that they are the best vacuums on the market for household cleaning.  Then you went over to the dyson side because of the root cyclone suction technology.  Well, I may not be as smart as you when it comes to household vacuums, .............BUT I would think based on the two above significant factors in your professional life, that it would follow from logical deduction that you would be foaming from the mouth for a dyson canister.  Or is yours a similar case to the fox and grapes?  Wink
 
Carmine D.
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dualcyclone
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #31 - 11/14/06 at 3:17pm
 
Yes Carmin:
I do like canisters.  I own a ton of them.  All makes and models in my collection of 442 vacuum cleaners.  I even like my Dyson canisters (both launched models and unlaunched model), but the bread and butter for Dyson is still in uprights.  It's a rare day anyone comes into the vac shop and asks for canisters, quite the opposite.  When you approach them about canisters, most people tell you they don't want to drag something behind them.  And, most people are either lazy or in a hurry and want the job done in the LEAST amount of time.
 
I started my professional life in vacuums with Rainbow (and still today run an authorized service center). I liked the Rainbow because it didn't have (Yah) a bag and it didn't clog as I picked up dirt with it.  What a novel idea.  Sounds like a Dyson?  Along the way I sold Filter Queen and Electrolux door to door.  I already had a vac shop when the Air-Way Signature Series was launched.  
 
I knew, many years ago, that James was on to something.  I told you as much many years ago on the old Vac Web forum (I love to say I Told You So) and predicted the current situation for Dyson in the U.S. 4 years before it ever got here.  How's that for foresight.
I guess I just recognize greatness instead of always 'poo pooing' anything without a Hoover label on it.
 
The Dyson was, and is, a revolution in vacuum cleaning technology. It's not going away, and it doesn't have to be discounted to sell.  There's no reason that people won't pay MORE for better products.  And that's the very thing that frustrates Hoover, Bissell, and others. They do NOT have better technology, because they are looking at the whole problem upside down.  
 
James looked at the vacuum cleaner problem from the eyes of someone who USED the machine.  In fact, he had a VAX.  It was the VAX's bag that caused him to become so frustrated at the machine.  
 
The reason I have no respect for someone like you is that you can't see the forest for the trees.  If you are unwilling to admit there's a problem with bags, then how will you ever admit there's anything better.  The same way that you 'poo pooed' electric lights when they were invented, perfering to use candles.  Or when they invented cars.  You didn't want to give up your horses.  Now, we have technology that allows a vacuum cleaner to work properly, all the time.  And, of course, you disparage the new technology in favor of the filthy old clogging vacuum cleaner bag.  Why?  You have long ago retired, sold your business, and moved to an old age home.  It doesn't and shouldn't matter to you one bit, since you no longer make your high profit from the sale of those filthy, expensive bags.
 
Once again, as I said to you MANY years ago, ALL vacuums will one day use Dyson's technology.  The fact that all the 'big box' brands are currently (or will soon) use Dyson's technology is just proof I've been right all along.  You, Carmin, are a member of the 'old guard'.  Once the 'old guard' has died out the world will be free of smelly, filthy clogging old bags forever.
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just-passing-throu
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #32 - 11/14/06 at 3:45pm
 
Though I am not in the business of vacuums, and in no way have the expertise the rest of you have; I will have to agree with Dual on this one to a point and with Carmine the rest of the way.  
 
I think Dual is absolutely correct in the evolution of the modern vacuum cleaner.  I see the D machine in the same light that Air-Way was way back then,  when they introduced the toss away bag.  Before that you had to dump the old cloth thing outside and endure the dust cloud.  After Air-way invented the paper bag you just tossed away your dirt along with the bag and the evolution began.  Soon all manufactures began using paper bags, with the slight exception of Kirby who held on to the emptor bag until 1979 or so.  Along the way there were other exceptions like Rainbow that used another filter medium, but all in all everyone saw the paper bag as the way to go.  
 
Now with the D machine all the vac makers are rushing to market with some sort of "bagless" contraption to mimick the D, but not the quality.  Much the same as the bagged machines for many years never matched the Air-way , if they ever have.   But where Carmine is correct as well is there are still going to be holdouts that like bags and will continue to buy them by the case.  Which one becomes the nitch machine?  Only time will tell, but I see a market for both for many years.  I myself don't see either collection system forcing the other out of the market, in fact many homes will continue to purchase both to be used for different jobs.  
 
All of this of course from someone that is only speaking truely from a consumer point of view.   I will also grant you that there is a great percentage of buyers that doesn't care how they get the dirt out of their house, they just want it out.  This explains the $39 machines you see nowdays, they don't care how it leaves, they just want it to leave, and if something runs over the carpet and makes noise they will assume it is working.  
 
I came back to edit my post to add this:
Carmine and Dual both seem to me to be vacuum professionals that know their business.  Carmine is a dyed in the wool Hoover man.  Nothing wrong with that, he knows how to de-emphasize shortcoming and emphasize the positives.  Dual knows this as well and thus the friction that somtimes arises.  You guys are both more simular than different, you know your business and you defend it;  and that's a good thing.    Others may disagree, and that is their expertise as well and it is good for this forum as I enjoy the different opinions from all of you.  
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Mike_W.
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #33 - 11/15/06 at 5:14am
 
Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on?
 
The vacuum cleaner bag is not going to disappear.  There will always be a need for them. Bagless also have their place, but they are not for everyone.  Some people should not have them because of allergies or respiratory problems.  Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks.
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #34 - 11/15/06 at 7:53am
 
Quote from Mike_W. on 11/15/06 at 5:14am:
Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on?

Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks.

 
On the same note, bagless are an excellent venue for household hand held and stick vacuums.
 
Carmine D.
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tiger21
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #35 - 11/15/06 at 6:47pm
 
The stick vacs of the 50's were bagless and then the manufactuers put bags in them . I heard from the complaints that dirt was blowing everywhere and back in their face.
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #36 - 11/15/06 at 7:44pm
 
Quote from Mike_W. on 11/15/06 at 5:14am:
Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on?

The vacuum cleaner bag is not going to disappear.  There will always be a need for them. Bagless also have their place, but they are not for everyone.  Some people should not have them because of allergies or respiratory problems.  Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks.

 
I still think that the disposable vacuum cleaner bag is the most efficient method of DISPOSING of dust and dirt. Particularly if the bag is made of filtrette material, and has the shutter to lock the dust inside.
 
Bagless machines, of all forms, including Dysons, are mucky beasts which should only be handled by non-allergic persons. To me, they are on a par with the old cloth bags for emptying.
 
I speak as a person who is allergic to various allergens, including house dust allergens, grass pollen and cat dander.  
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #37 - 11/16/06 at 5:25pm
 
Hi all,
 
Quick question . . . considering the high price for some bagless vacuums, how much innovation am I paying for as opposed to how much of my money is meant to compensate the makers for the disposable bags they won't be selling?
 
Venson
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Carmine_Difazio
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #38 - 11/16/06 at 9:01pm
 
Hello Venson:
 
Excellent question.  Let me answer, in part, by comparing two recent bagless vacuums that both use the exact same root suction technology: The BISSELL Healthy Home made by Samsung in South Korea with a MSRP of $299 and the SEARS Iridium made by LG in South Korea with a MSRP of $499.  Both the Samsung and LG use the same root suction technology for these vacuums, which is now almost 5 years old in the USA, same South Korean labor, same excise fees, and same tariffs to market and sell in the USA.  One is an upright sold by all the major retailers and the other is a canister sold exclusively (at least since its launch in June until now) through SEARS.  Both carry similar warranties.  You bought the SEARS Iridium.  I don't know what you paid, but there is a excess profit margin on the Iridium (called additional dealer mark up if this were a vehicle) of $200.
 
The bag cost over the life of the vacuum is a facade and a veil of deceipt to lure and lull buyers into the mindset that bagless vacuums are better from a cost perspective and should be priced higher.  I disagree vehemently.  You are correct.  You are paying the bagless makers more for something, but I'm not sure exactly what that something is.  High priced bagless vacuum makers are jumping on the dyson bandwagon and sticking it to the naive vacuum buyers with design, style and colors.  Form over function.  Sizzle over substance.  All are irrelevant to vacuum cleaning and performance.   
 
Bagless is more filthy dirty than any bagged and certainly more labor intensive for the user to dump the dirt bin after every use or several uses than to replace a bag once every 4-6 weeks.  Dirt is dirt, bagged and/or bagless.  How do you get buyers to buy into the bagless is better myth?  How else except the pocket book: With a bag cost argument.  It's a lame attempt to persuade (dupe) the uninformed and unfamiliar into paying a premium price for a bagless brand sold in big box retail stores at exuberant prices.  In the case of the LG Iridium, it's a "holiday" premium compared to the BISSELL.  IMHO
 
Carmine D.
 
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« Last Edit: 11/17/06 at 7:41am by Carmine_Difazio »  
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Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test
Reply #39 - 11/17/06 at 12:25am
 
Carmine, I beg your pardon.
 
My Iridium was NOT made in North Korea, I assure you.
 
And I simply didn't want a machine that would fall apart after six months.
 
Most of the American buying public understands EXACTLY what the justification is for buying such a product is.
 
I have no time for defective products, or for running around to seven thousand discount shops, to buy an inferior product that will last a year at the most.
 
Bags for all but the most bottom-of-the-line products are NOT available in big-box stores, whether the bags be named Honeywell, Arm and Hammer, or any other brand name.  Vacuum repair shops are going the way of the dinosaur in my neck of the woods, and to a repairman, the service personnel are not well-versed, even on the legacy brands.  The markup on bags and other sundries is unspeakably high, and with outsourcing, these products are extremely likely to be unavailable even in the near future.
 
North Korea, Carmine.  REALLY.
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