Forum /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Vacuum Cleaner Forum >> The Vacuum Cleaner Test /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1160347664 Message started by Dyson_Chris on 10/08/06 at 6:47pm

Title: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Dyson_Chris on 10/08/06 at 6:47pm Check this test out. Very interesting..... Who really has the most power? Dyson DC07 All Floors Hoover Wind Tunnel 2 Shark Infinity Kenmore Progressive with Direct Drive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2hAiKmkeoc

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by tiger21 on 10/08/06 at 8:39pm Looking at your site it is a bunch of amatuers putting on a show. I will not say what I saw was fact or not. There is always a chance of lawsuit by the different companies shown. In ads put on by different manufactures the name of the company is blocked out. At the end where it looks like an ad by Dyson you don't have where Dyson is a registered trademark. All of the companies involved can be part of a very bad lawsuit. I hope the maker of the piece well.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/08/06 at 8:46pm The video says dyson Ball video (DC15) but the dyson used in the video is a DC14.  Technical discrepancy?   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 10/08/06 at 9:06pm Hi Chris, Thanks, the demo film was nice.  I once was curious and set the top half of my Hoover Lark stick vac on my kitchen counter and turned it on.  Couldn't budge it while it ran.  Holy, suction cups, it had only a three-hundred or so watt motor.  Despite my "test", it still remained average all around when it came to regular use. Unfortunately, the ball lift thing is not an issue for me -- though I feel the Kenmore made a nice showing.  I'm inundated with this kind of thing every day one way or another.  Even Oreck has lifted a bowling with its teeny portable canister vacuum.  What I'm interested in is how well a vacuum performs under regular conditions.  I am interested in how well a vacuum can suck up surface litter and dislodge deep dirt in carpeting as well as expedite the removal of dirt and debris off bare floors and above the floor.  I'd be far more more imressed f they put a pound of powder in each machine and then ran them over a dirty rug or performed other usual tasks I'd be far more impressed by the results to come from whatever brand. Dyson has a rep, at least per CR, for not stellar performance in regard to deep cleaning rugs.  I, along with others, attribute this mainly to the design of the brush roll and don't understand why they don't just work on that instead of trying to impress consumers with "magic".  The new DC18, has two height adjustments I've learned and a different nozzle design.  I'm hoping that means that Dyson's considering some new approaches to real problems. Regards, Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by vacuuman on 10/09/06 at 1:06am I believe by calling it the Dyson ball video, they were referring to the steel balls used in the demo.  Nothing there really shocked me too much, but I would be curious what some of the other high end vacuums would do with the test.  This reminds me of the Electrolux demo using the same steel balls, but more of them.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by JimB on 10/09/06 at 9:09am Looks straight forward with no tricks as it really is just a version of a straight hose suction test.  You would get the same results measuring the airflow's of these machines with a meter after sucking in of the testing material, it just would not seem as dramatic as a visual to a layman.   Also please notice the are using large metal "ball" bearings thus the "ball" video it never states dc15 anywhere in this video.  Technical discrepency or just another plain silly anti dyson attack?

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by JimB on 10/09/06 at 9:18am Venson,  Up to now dyson seems to have been somehow committed to going with strong suction backed by mild brushbar agitation.  I personally think they held on to long in trying to convince people that the aggressive brushrolls do to much long term damage to carpeting.  I believe very soon dyson will be offering an excellent choice for those who prefer the more aggressive brushbar and some here will have to completely rework how they address the product.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/09/06 at 9:55am JimB wrote:  I believe very soon dyson will be offering an excellent choice for those who prefer the more aggressive brushbar and some here will have to completely rework how they address the product. Perhaps as a direct result of comments and concerns expressed by industry professionals to dyson in writing about its shortcomings in brush nozzle and brushbar designs.  Accepting relevant criticism and profiting by it indicates a company's commitment and professionalism to the industry. The DC15 Ball, which introed after dyson was in the USA vacuum market for 3 years (April 2005), attempts to address the brushbar design deficiencies of the DC07 and DC14.  But it did not go far enough (IMHO).  It's now been 4 years since dyson entered the USA market.  This is certainly enough time to redesign, test, and launch vacuums that are indeed capable to meet the written dyson claim that dyson picks up excellently on ALL carpets. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by dualcyclone on 10/09/06 at 12:24pm Personally, I've always thought the brush bar design of the DC07/DC14 was perfectly acceptable.  Given that it was designed to do TWO things (and not just ONE).  Those two ideals are:  agitate and groom a carpet effectively and gently, and TWO: allow excellent bare floor pickup by NOT taking up all the room in the brush housing - allowing for debris from a bare floor to NOT stick to the brushes. Let's look at how some other manufacturers do this: The Hoover Windtunnel V2 for example.  Four rows of 'aggressive' brushes - tons of repair problems with the brush drive - HORRIBLE bare floor cleaning (almost non existent). Then we have Bissell: brush takes up most of the room in the nozzle housing ("industry standard" size as Carmin would say) yet it doesn't clean the carpet as well as Dyson and does NO bare floor cleaning since the brush cannot stop to pick up debris.  It turns constantly, even when using attachments. Next we come to the Windtunnel (self propelled) which Carmin would call the "number one vacuum".  Well, the double belt drive system is terrible. Any vac shop guy could tell you about all the "V" belts we sell, not to mention the melted plastic brush roller (at the "V" belt drive groove).  Good for bare floors?  Not.  Brush is too big.  Spilled chips stick in the brushes, rather than get sucked up. They fall out when you turn the machine off. Same with cat litter on a bare floor.  Sticks to the brushes rather than passes through. I don't for one minute believe that the Dyson brush roller fails to clean the carpet well.  It raises the nap perfectly and the tremendous CONSTANT suction cleans deeply. DC07's problem on Frieze rugs is simply due to the high seal the nozzle has to the carpet.  DC14 has no such problem, since the soleplate has an opening called the 'large debris pick up channel' which prevents the soleplate from sealing to the carpet.  Personally, I don't like it.  Not enough suction at the carpet level. Prefer the DC07's high vacuum seal to the rug.  But to each his own (and his own rug). DC17 Absolute, designed specifically for American rugs, will be the ultimate Dyson.  There will be a REAL reason for a present DC07 owner to trade up to the new model.  I'm sure we'll have lots of used DC07's soon enough.  Just like when Hoover came out with the beater bar brush on the model 700.  People with Hoover 105's and 541's had a REAL reason to trade up. The only way the steel ball test would actually tell us something is: if they showed the test both before and after 8 ounces of bar-b-que pit ashes were sucked up.  The machine with enough airflow to continue to hold 5 steel balls would be the one that didn't clog.  No matter how good the brush roller, if the machine is clogged, no cleaning can take place.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/09/06 at 1:19pm vacuuman wrote: I believe by calling it the Dyson ball video, they were referring to the steel balls used in the demo.   Good point.  IMHO dyson would not use the title of the video for concern that it would be confused with the DC15 Ball.  Just as Tiger says it's probably not dyson sanctioned and amaturish. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by M00seUK on 10/09/06 at 2:14pm Hrm, it's a tough one to call. It could a be reasonably well done amateur job or it could be a downgraded commission by way of Dyson's agency, a double bluff if you will. Ford did a viral advert like this a few years back and although they admitted to making it, they insisted that it was never meant to  have been shown, that it was leaked by someone. http://snipurl.com/ykeo But who's to tell? With this Dyson-example, it could very very difficult to establish where it came from. Maybe a competitor could ask the host to remove it, but I'd imagine they wouldn't take any action. At the end of the day, from their point of view, it's a user filmed video comparing vacuum cleaner suction.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by vacuuman on 10/09/06 at 7:43pm As far as clogging goes, this test uses a pretty unrealistic amount of dirt.  Even with a packed full bag, I can guarantee that none of my vacuums will have that much of that fine of dust.  If anything there will be more pet hair and lint taking up the room than the fine dust.   I still believe that both agitation and high airflow are needed for a true deep cleaning.  It has been said here by the Dyson experts that the Dyson has around 80-90 CFM, and most of us are familiar with the brushroll by now.  Now look at something like a Riccar or Miele, the higher end models typically have in the range of 120-150 CFM, and more aggressive brushrolls.  I also still strongly believe that if changed when 1/2 to 2/3 full, a better quality multi-layered bag will maintain more than enough of the vacuum's original airflow to clean effectively.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by HARDSELL on 10/09/06 at 8:05pm Carmine_Difazio wrote: [quote author=JimB link=1160347664/0#6 date=1160399917] I believe very soon dyson will be offering an excellent choice for those who prefer the more aggressive brushbar and some here will have to completely rework how they address the product. Perhaps as a direct result of comments and concerns expressed by industry professionals to dyson in writing about its shortcomings in brush nozzle and brushbar designs.  Accepting relevant criticism and profiting by it indicates a company's commitment and professionalism to the industry. The DC15 Ball, which introed after dyson was in the USA vacuum market for 3 years (April 2005), attempts to address the brushbar design deficiencies of the DC07 and DC14.  But it did not go far enough (IMHO).  It's now been 4 years since dyson entered the USA market.  This is certainly enough time to redesign, test, and launch vacuums that are indeed capable to meet the written dyson claim that dyson picks up excellently on ALL carpets. Carmine D. [/quote] Right on.  In 4 years Dyson should have been able to introduce at least two poor performers per year like Hoover.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 10/10/06 at 3:56am I had a chance to see this piece yesterday.  You can see that it cannot be classified as an experiment, but a commercial for dyson.  If I did not know better, I could swear it was done by someone who has visited our forum.  Amazing their choices for the competition and the Infinity just came out.   There is more potential of lawsuits w/ this youtube.com clip. This can be especially true as this site becomes more popular and more commercialized.  Today, Google purchased Youtube.com.  I heard that in one month there are approx. 100million visitors to the site.   So, since the vacuum cleaner cannot pick up a steel ball, it cannot pick up grans of dirt(that weighs quite a bit less)? The "test dirt" is not real world dirt.  There are alot of different material that gets collected in the dirt container/bag.  There is skin flakes, food particles, dust, mite droppings/body parts, hair, etc.  All it shows is which vacuum cleaner is going to decrease suction when "test dirt" has filled the bin/bag and not which vacuum cleaner is going to pick up regular debris from carpeting.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by D.E.P. on 10/10/06 at 5:28am Mike_W. wrote: I had a chance to see this piece yesterday.  You can see that it cannot be classified as an experiment, but a commercial for dyson.  If I did not know better, I could swear it was done by someone who has visited our forum.  Amazing their choices for the competition and the Infinity just came out. I also wondered the same thing, but then thought "who would have ever wanted to make a commercial last that long"??? Unless it was to be used as one of the "in-store" tape demo's like at Bed Bath and Beyond... I also think the tape may have been made in Canada, since the Shark Infinity they show is purple, which is the Color for the Canadian model.... Dan P.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Dyson_Chris on 10/10/06 at 8:46am That should have read: Thanks for finding the error Carmine.... Check this test out. Very interesting..... Who really has the most power? Dyson DC14 All Floors Hoover Wind Tunnel 2 Shark Infinity Kenmore Progressive with Direct Drive   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2hAiKmkeoc

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/06 at 8:53am M00seUK wrote: Hrm, it's a tough one to call. It could a be reasonably well done amateur job or it could be a downgraded commission by way of Dyson's agency, a double bluff if you will. Ford did a viral advert like this a few years back and although they admitted to making it, they insisted that it was never meant to  have been shown, that it was leaked by someone. http://snipurl.com/ykeo But who's to tell? With this Dyson-example, it could very very difficult to establish where it came from. Maybe a competitor could ask the host to remove it, but I'd imagine they wouldn't take any action. At the end of the day, from their point of view, it's a user filmed video comparing vacuum cleaner suction. M00seUK, Mike W: I think you are both right.  Dyson is aware of the commercial and may have sanctioned.  Let the vacuum video play to the end and watch the other videos that come up.  They are videos for dyson products. Some interesting facts about YouTube.  Most videos are homemade BUT the site features volumes of copyrighted material which is a problem that caused some critics to predict will sue the startup (NINE MONTHS OLD) into oblivion, much like the once-popular music sharing Napster.  YouTube has not turned a profit in 9 months, no cash was exchanged, ONLY stock for $1.65 BILLION.  Google stock jumped $9 to $429 per share. A Wall Street Journal article today says YouTube is a nineteen (19) month old startup company.  Today's Las Vegas newspaper said 9 months and is the source of my above information.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by old-timer on 10/10/06 at 2:20pm I saw this 8 ball pick up tube back in the early 80's, an old electrolux trick, now they use the 4 ball tube,1205 and golden J's used the 3 ball tube. The only real worth of this test was to see if the hoses were pourous, try this test with a 3 or 4 year old hose. tricks to dazzle the audience, dysons only about 45 years behind the times. my dogs better than your dog remember that kennalration skit B.T.W. notice how the vid shows 2 or 3 ball in the tube already. why do you think that is ? ROOKIES, creative advertising,he,he,he,

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 10/11/06 at 11:47am D.E.P. wrote: [quote author=Mike_W. link=1160347664/10#13 date=1160466973]I had a chance to see this piece yesterday.  You can see that it cannot be classified as an experiment, but a commercial for dyson.  If I did not know better, I could swear it was done by someone who has visited our forum.  Amazing their choices for the competition and the Infinity just came out. I also wondered the same thing, but then thought "who would have ever wanted to make a commercial last that long"??? Unless it was to be used as one of the "in-store" tape demo's like at Bed Bath and Beyond... I also think the tape may have been made in Canada, since the Shark Infinity they show is purple, which is the Color for the Canadian model.... Dan P.[/quote] We are accustomed to viewing television commercials that last under a minute unless it is an infommercial.  A company can chop up a commercial and make it fit into a time limit.  It is common practice today.  I can recall a Shout commercial where they have since taken some of the content out.  My original point is that this youtube.com piece is not a credible experiment, but could be a commercial instead. As for Infinity being Canadian, yes it is.  The Kenmore Progressive is not.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Dyson_Chris on 10/16/06 at 6:08pm The video was removed. I wonder why.....

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/16/06 at 7:24pm Chris: After the announcement of the purchase of Youtube by Google I read a follow up article saying that the Youtube website planned a software filtering to identify potentially unauthorized materials (copyright materials used w/o the consent of the manufacturers) for review, editing, and exclusion from the site.   My sense is that this video, and possibly others, was voluntarily and/or involuntarily removed in preparation for the software upgrade to the site.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 10/18/06 at 5:15am Well gee, maybe they were given a "talking to" by one or more of the companies.  Maybe they realized that they could be held responsible for what they posted. I believe that two young people were arrested, because of what they posted on this same site(on an unrelated topic). People are watching.  I already know that some people are swayed because of what they saw.  This gives more anno to these companies, for example, if they have to fight to remove a youtube.com clip or to take bigger legal action.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by JimB on 10/18/06 at 10:56am It was only a matter of time that the video sharing services saw the same repurcussions of the music sharing services.  Only question now is will the companies go after those who downloaded material like the music industry did? http://www.ft.com/cms/s/57d66d24-5e0f-11db-82d4-0000779e2340.html

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/23/06 at 10:40pm IBM announced a lawsuit today against Amazon.com for..........................copyright infringement of IBM products and terms on its website.  The amount of the lawsuit is expected to be VERY high.  Details to be released tomorrow.   IBM stock has done well recently and Amazon stock has not, loosing over 35 percent of its value in the last year due to falling slaes and profits.  The IBM lawsuit will hurt Amazon financially and operationally even more. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/25/06 at 9:18am IBM filed two lawsuits in US Federal Courts in Texas, a jurisdiction friendly to patent holders, against Amazon.com seeking unspecified damages.  Although IBM did not specify the amount in its legal filings, a company spokesman said damages were "potentially in the hundreds of millions of dollars." At issue is one of Amazon.com's notable e-commerce features: Displaying targeted advertising and recommending items for purchase.  IBM says this is one of 5 patents at issue called: "Ordering Items Using an Electronic Catalogue." It is uncommon for IBM to sue, taking a friendly approach to patents by donating intellectual property rights and preferring instead to "work out" licensing agreements.  However the negotiation efforts with Amazon.com broke down several weeks ago. Working in IBM's favor is that some of the 5 patents have rather early dates for this technology.  The electronic-catalog patent was issued in 1994.  That may make it harder for Amazon to claim the technology was widely in use and hence the patents not valid. Amazon reported quarterly earnings yesterday: 5 cents a share compared to 7 cents a share for the same quarter last year and 2 cents above street estimates of 3 cents a share. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/10/06 at 10:47pm Dyson Takes the Gold in Bagless Vacuums Source: Wall Street Journal, Thursday Nov 9, 2006 Personal Journal: Home and Family Shopping Around/Vacuum Cleaners by Sara Schaefer Munos In a match off of 3 of today's top bagless vacuums: The Shark Infinity (Red and Teal), the HOOVER WT 2 Complete and Dyson Absolute, the top rated for design and maneuverabilty goes to the dyson DC17. All the tested models did well in the cleaning tests.  The Infinity gets kudos for its light weight and design which make it easy to carry.  It lost points because it was hard to click it into the upright position. HOOVER gets kudos for the self-cleaning filter, but loses points for its size (not suited for apartment usage) and the dirt fall out from the filter when the dirt bin is removed. Dyson DC17 gets the nod for the easiest of the 3 to use and the best in design and maneuvering. BUT..............as the article cogently explains:  With the prices of the Infinity at $199-$249, the HOOVER WT 2 at $299-and up and the DC17 at $549, dyson is facing competition by brands that promise the same strong suction using similar technology at a lower price.  Imitators can be significantly cheaper than the real thing. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Trilobite on 11/11/06 at 5:50pm And therein lies Dyson's problem - the competitors are catching up. Dyson will have to continually launch new technology, or lower their prices, or maybe even both...

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by HARDSELL on 11/11/06 at 7:53pm Trilobite wrote: And therein lies Dyson's problem - the competitors are catching up. Dyson will have to continually launch new technology, or lower their prices, or maybe even both... Dyson already has the technology as evidenced by all of the others copying it.  Dyson once again proves that lower pricing does not make the best machine.  Maybe consumers will recognize that.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/13/06 at 12:41am Trilobite wrote: And therein lies Dyson's problem - the competitors are catching up. Dyson will have to continually launch new technology, or lower their prices, or maybe even both... Right on.  Right on.  And dyson's already lost ground (which it may never regain) in the bagless canister market by letting LG's SEARS Iridium trump its DC11.  If and when dyson ever does enter the US cann market again with the DC11 motorbrush, SEARS will drop the price on the Iridium and squeeze dyson's DC11 profits to a pulp.  No wonder SEARS keeps bagged canns side by side with the LG bagless Iridium.  After the two bagless canns knock each other out, SEARS will still be pulling in over 25 percent of the new canister sales vacuum cleaner market every year WITH BAGGED CANISTERS.  Not missing a beat from the new wave (read fad) cyclone technology bagless brand canister competition. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by dualcyclone on 11/13/06 at 12:10pm Dyson's biggest asset is its word of mouth advertising.  Nothing that Hoover or others can do will reverse this trend. ONCE SOMEONE BUYS A DYSON, they tell others about it. And, they call it by name. It's a rare day that people can tell you what brand of vacuum they own, most people don't know and don't care.  Until they have to buy bags (or filters or belts).  Then, its a big deal to find out which machine they have.  I've had more people than I can count bring back the 'wrong' bags because they themselves were the problem in not knowing what machine to get bags for. Dyson's profits are just fine.  Even though Carmin would like it not to be so. And yes, everyone else is copying Dyson's technology.  To say "we're just like Dyson" implies that dyson has been BETTER all along.  Which is has been.  And now, with its new technology (level 3 cyclones) they have taken a huge leap forward.   All the 'me too' companies have is a copy of the best.  And not even a good copy.  Some, like the Infinity from Shark, don't work properly.  Some, like the Bissell Healthy Home, are middling at filtration.  But some, like the LG Iridium, are EXCELLENT.  Good thing James doesn't care a thing about canisters (his mother had an upright).  The bread and butter is in uprights.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/13/06 at 12:53pm Dual: Isn't your vacuum of choice a canister?  Not uprights.   I recall a younger Dualcyclone who sold Air-Ways (even has a limited edition in his honor) and then Rainbows because he believed PASSIONATELY that they are the best vacuums on the market for household cleaning.  Then you went over to the dyson side because of the root cyclone suction technology.  Well, I may not be as smart as you when it comes to household vacuums, .............BUT I would think based on the two above significant factors in your professional life, that it would follow from logical deduction that you would be foaming from the mouth for a dyson canister.  Or is yours a similar case to the fox and grapes?  ;) Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by dualcyclone on 11/14/06 at 3:17pm Yes Carmin: I do like canisters.  I own a ton of them.  All makes and models in my collection of 442 vacuum cleaners.  I even like my Dyson canisters (both launched models and unlaunched model), but the bread and butter for Dyson is still in uprights.  It's a rare day anyone comes into the vac shop and asks for canisters, quite the opposite.  When you approach them about canisters, most people tell you they don't want to drag something behind them.  And, most people are either lazy or in a hurry and want the job done in the LEAST amount of time. I started my professional life in vacuums with Rainbow (and still today run an authorized service center). I liked the Rainbow because it didn't have (Yah) a bag and it didn't clog as I picked up dirt with it.  What a novel idea.  Sounds like a Dyson?  Along the way I sold Filter Queen and Electrolux door to door.  I already had a vac shop when the Air-Way Signature Series was launched.   I knew, many years ago, that James was on to something.  I told you as much many years ago on the old Vac Web forum (I love to say I Told You So) and predicted the current situation for Dyson in the U.S. 4 years before it ever got here.  How's that for foresight. I guess I just recognize greatness instead of always 'poo pooing' anything without a Hoover label on it. The Dyson was, and is, a revolution in vacuum cleaning technology. It's not going away, and it doesn't have to be discounted to sell.  There's no reason that people won't pay MORE for better products.  And that's the very thing that frustrates Hoover, Bissell, and others. They do NOT have better technology, because they are looking at the whole problem upside down.   James looked at the vacuum cleaner problem from the eyes of someone who USED the machine.  In fact, he had a VAX.  It was the VAX's bag that caused him to become so frustrated at the machine. The reason I have no respect for someone like you is that you can't see the forest for the trees.  If you are unwilling to admit there's a problem with bags, then how will you ever admit there's anything better.  The same way that you 'poo pooed' electric lights when they were invented, perfering to use candles.  Or when they invented cars.  You didn't want to give up your horses.  Now, we have technology that allows a vacuum cleaner to work properly, all the time.  And, of course, you disparage the new technology in favor of the filthy old clogging vacuum cleaner bag.  Why?  You have long ago retired, sold your business, and moved to an old age home.  It doesn't and shouldn't matter to you one bit, since you no longer make your high profit from the sale of those filthy, expensive bags. Once again, as I said to you MANY years ago, ALL vacuums will one day use Dyson's technology.  The fact that all the 'big box' brands are currently (or will soon) use Dyson's technology is just proof I've been right all along.  You, Carmin, are a member of the 'old guard'.  Once the 'old guard' has died out the world will be free of smelly, filthy clogging old bags forever.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by just-passing-throu on 11/14/06 at 3:45pm Though I am not in the business of vacuums, and in no way have the expertise the rest of you have; I will have to agree with Dual on this one to a point and with Carmine the rest of the way. I think Dual is absolutely correct in the evolution of the modern vacuum cleaner.  I see the D machine in the same light that Air-Way was way back then,  when they introduced the toss away bag.  Before that you had to dump the old cloth thing outside and endure the dust cloud.  After Air-way invented the paper bag you just tossed away your dirt along with the bag and the evolution began.  Soon all manufactures began using paper bags, with the slight exception of Kirby who held on to the emptor bag until 1979 or so.  Along the way there were other exceptions like Rainbow that used another filter medium, but all in all everyone saw the paper bag as the way to go.   Now with the D machine all the vac makers are rushing to market with some sort of "bagless" contraption to mimick the D, but not the quality.  Much the same as the bagged machines for many years never matched the Air-way , if they ever have.   But where Carmine is correct as well is there are still going to be holdouts that like bags and will continue to buy them by the case.  Which one becomes the nitch machine?  Only time will tell, but I see a market for both for many years.  I myself don't see either collection system forcing the other out of the market, in fact many homes will continue to purchase both to be used for different jobs. All of this of course from someone that is only speaking truely from a consumer point of view.   I will also grant you that there is a great percentage of buyers that doesn't care how they get the dirt out of their house, they just want it out.  This explains the $39 machines you see nowdays, they don't care how it leaves, they just want it to leave, and if something runs over the carpet and makes noise they will assume it is working. I came back to edit my post to add this: Carmine and Dual both seem to me to be vacuum professionals that know their business.  Carmine is a dyed in the wool Hoover man.  Nothing wrong with that, he knows how to de-emphasize shortcoming and emphasize the positives.  Dual knows this as well and thus the friction that somtimes arises.  You guys are both more simular than different, you know your business and you defend it;  and that's a good thing.    Others may disagree, and that is their expertise as well and it is good for this forum as I enjoy the different opinions from all of you.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 11/15/06 at 5:14am Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on? The vacuum cleaner bag is not going to disappear.  There will always be a need for them. Bagless also have their place, but they are not for everyone.  Some people should not have them because of allergies or respiratory problems.  Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/15/06 at 7:53am Mike_W. wrote: Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on? Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks. On the same note, bagless are an excellent venue for household hand held and stick vacuums. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by tiger21 on 11/15/06 at 6:47pm The stick vacs of the 50's were bagless and then the manufactuers put bags in them . I heard from the complaints that dirt was blowing everywhere and back in their face.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Trilobite on 11/15/06 at 7:44pm Mike_W. wrote: Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on? The vacuum cleaner bag is not going to disappear.  There will always be a need for them. Bagless also have their place, but they are not for everyone.  Some people should not have them because of allergies or respiratory problems.  Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks. I still think that the disposable vacuum cleaner bag is the most efficient method of DISPOSING of dust and dirt. Particularly if the bag is made of filtrette material, and has the shutter to lock the dust inside. Bagless machines, of all forms, including Dysons, are mucky beasts which should only be handled by non-allergic persons. To me, they are on a par with the old cloth bags for emptying. I speak as a person who is allergic to various allergens, including house dust allergens, grass pollen and cat dander.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 11/16/06 at 5:25pm Hi all, Quick question . . . considering the high price for some bagless vacuums, how much innovation am I paying for as opposed to how much of my money is meant to compensate the makers for the disposable bags they won't be selling? Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/16/06 at 9:01pm Hello Venson: Excellent question.  Let me answer, in part, by comparing two recent bagless vacuums that both use the exact same root suction technology: The BISSELL Healthy Home made by Samsung in South Korea with a MSRP of $299 and the SEARS Iridium made by LG in South Korea with a MSRP of $499.  Both the Samsung and LG use the same root suction technology for these vacuums, which is now almost 5 years old in the USA, same South Korean labor, same excise fees, and same tariffs to market and sell in the USA.  One is an upright sold by all the major retailers and the other is a canister sold exclusively (at least since its launch in June until now) through SEARS.  Both carry similar warranties.  You bought the SEARS Iridium.  I don't know what you paid, but there is a excess profit margin on the Iridium (called additional dealer mark up if this were a vehicle) of $200. The bag cost over the life of the vacuum is a facade and a veil of deceipt to lure and lull buyers into the mindset that bagless vacuums are better from a cost perspective and should be priced higher.  I disagree vehemently.  You are correct.  You are paying the bagless makers more for something, but I'm not sure exactly what that something is.  High priced bagless vacuum makers are jumping on the dyson bandwagon and sticking it to the naive vacuum buyers with design, style and colors.  Form over function.  Sizzle over substance.  All are irrelevant to vacuum cleaning and performance.  Bagless is more filthy dirty than any bagged and certainly more labor intensive for the user to dump the dirt bin after every use or several uses than to replace a bag once every 4-6 weeks.  Dirt is dirt, bagged and/or bagless.  How do you get buyers to buy into the bagless is better myth?  How else except the pocket book: With a bag cost argument.  It's a lame attempt to persuade (dupe) the uninformed and unfamiliar into paying a premium price for a bagless brand sold in big box retail stores at exuberant prices.  In the case of the LG Iridium, it's a "holiday" premium compared to the BISSELL.  IMHO Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by planethoover on 11/17/06 at 12:25am Carmine, I beg your pardon. My Iridium was NOT made in North Korea, I assure you. And I simply didn't want a machine that would fall apart after six months. Most of the American buying public understands EXACTLY what the justification is for buying such a product is. I have no time for defective products, or for running around to seven thousand discount shops, to buy an inferior product that will last a year at the most. Bags for all but the most bottom-of-the-line products are NOT available in big-box stores, whether the bags be named Honeywell, Arm and Hammer, or any other brand name.  Vacuum repair shops are going the way of the dinosaur in my neck of the woods, and to a repairman, the service personnel are not well-versed, even on the legacy brands.  The markup on bags and other sundries is unspeakably high, and with outsourcing, these products are extremely likely to be unavailable even in the near future. North Korea, Carmine.  REALLY.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/17/06 at 7:35am Planethoover: Sorry, I stand corrected, LG Electronics and Samsung Electronis are not in North Korea.  They both are in South Korea, crosstown from each other and in a race to be number one.  I'll make the correction in my previous post.  Thank you for noting it for me.   I should have used Korea instead just as the two companies do.   :) Both companies have factories and sales divisions around the world.  LG is cranking up world-wide and the company is opening more factories outside Korea which are classified as overseas subsidiaries.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 11/17/06 at 3:41pm Trilobite wrote: [quote author=Mike_W. link=1160347664/30#33 date=1163585668] Wow dualcyclone, two websites in one week.  What's going on? The vacuum cleaner bag is not going to disappear.  There will always be a need for them. Bagless also have their place, but they are not for everyone.  Some people should not have them because of allergies or respiratory problems.  Bagless come in handy if you have alot of animal hair to pick up and you are finding that the bag must be changed in less than 4wks. I still think that the disposable vacuum cleaner bag is the most efficient method of DISPOSING of dust and dirt. Particularly if the bag is made of filtrette material, and has the shutter to lock the dust inside. Bagless machines, of all forms, including Dysons, are mucky beasts which should only be handled by non-allergic persons. To me, they are on a par with the old cloth bags for emptying. I speak as a person who is allergic to various allergens, including house dust allergens, grass pollen and cat dander. [/quote] Vacuum cleaners w/ disposable bags are so much easier to use, IMHO.  Just vacuum and put the machine away for the next time.  When time comes to replace the bag, just toss it.  I can recall makers such as Electrolux and Royal saying similar things. Taking the container out to empty, after each vacuuming, can be a burden for some.  Back in the day of cloth shake-out bags, makers recommended emptying the bag after every use.  People did not want to do this.  They allowed their bag to fill.  I have shared before that I did the same thing. For those of you who do not have "dust seals" for the opening of the disposable vacuum cleaner bag, there is a solution.  If you have an issue w/ puffs of dust coming out of the opening of the bag, just stuff a tissue in the opening.  I recall mentioning this before to a woman who visited this site.  You can also get a piece of packing tape and use a piece the size of the opening and place it over the opening before lifting it out of the cleaner.  Then toss the bag.  Do not wait for your vacuum brand to come out w/ some form of bag seal, solve the problem yourself.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 11/17/06 at 4:28pm Carmine_Difazio wrote: Hello Venson:..... The BISSELL Healthy Home made by Samsung in South Korea with a MSRP of $299 and the SEARS Iridium made by LG in South Korea with a MSRP of $499. You can change it again, because- Mike_W. wrote: The Bissells.....  This China-built upright ......   Many of these companies like Samsung, LG, Daewoo, etc. have factories in China

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/17/06 at 5:42pm Thanks Mike.  Daewoo is a Korea company too, like Samsung and LG.   China, South Korea, Malaysia.  All Asian labor which I have said on the Forum on many occasions is slave labor without the guilt. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 11/17/06 at 7:03pm You're right Carmine.  And I find that issue the hard part of buying.  I paid full suggested price for my Iridium and it seems a shame that the workers who made it will see very little of the profit.   I recently viewed a documentary about the manufacture of the plastic beads they wore come Mardigra in New Orleans.  The worker's made very little for their efforts, had to be away from home for months at a time and lived in dorms at the factory.   I'm in no way financially rich but I buy what I want when I want it.  I nonetheless find it hard to understand why when dropping 500 bucks or more for goods made by someone in another part world the purchase turns out to be more at their expense than mine.  A very sad situation. Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by HARDSELL on 11/17/06 at 7:51pm Carmine_Difazio wrote: Thanks Mike.  Daewoo is a Korea company too, like Samsung and LG.   China, South Korea, Malaysia.  All Asian labor which I have said on the Forum on many occasions is slave labor without the guilt. Carmine D. Dyson falls into this group.  I believe that you have expressed this as on of the reasons no to buy that brand.  Would you also discourage not buying LG and Samsung for that reason?

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 11/17/06 at 10:04pm Hello HS: The short answer to your question is: No, I would not say don't buy the Samsung made BISSELL Healthy Home and/or the LG made SEARS Iridium, and/or the dyson.   I bought a dyson DC07 pink made in Malaysia.  I gifted it away after about a month.  If it met my needs, I probably would still have it and gifted the HOOVER WT Supreme.  But the dyson was of no value to me collecting dust in the closet.  The donee is enjoying it and it serves their needs.  And they couldn't beat the price.  I'm still using the HOOVER WT Supreme.  BTW the full bag indicator came on today.  THis will be the third bag replacement since August 10.   I've talked with dyson owners who bought UK made dysons and they claim that these are better than the Malaysian made dysons.  And they tell me they won't purchase the new dysons for that reason. Now for the longer answer to your question.  I would admonish persons who buy LG and Samsung made vacuums to do so at their own peril.  Why?  Availabilty of parts and service.  Especially the LG made SEARS Iridium.  These are sold exclusively by SEARS now.  In 2-3 years, where do they go for parts and service if needed?  Will SEARS even carry the line?  (Look at BEST BUY and the VAX line).  BISSELL may not be as bad.  Why?  $300 and/or less price.   More retailers carry and sell.  Parts and service will be available.  Even if parts and service are scarce, at $300 if you get 3 years before major problems, you can throw it away and buy a new vacuum.  (Realistically, that's how and why the big box retailers sell these vacuums at these prices and stay in business).  With a $500 vacuum?  That hurts the ego and the pocket book after 3 years.   Dyson is still iffy.  Parts and service are the problems.  At $400 plus, after 2-3 years (for the dysons purchased between April 2002 and August 2006) what do you do?  Where do you go?  I see DC07 dysons more and less than 2 years old getting traded in when they have repair problems.  People don't want the hassle of shipping them back to dyson and/or trying to locate an authorized dyson repair store.  The people will trade in for a vacuum store brand like RICCAR/Simplicity and/or Miele after the dyson purchase.  Why?  Availability of parts and service from reputable authorized dealers.  (Could this be the reason that one or more dyson dealers who proclaim dyson bagless as the best for years suddenly sign on with Miele?  And is this the reason in part dyson extended the warranty to 5 years from 2?  To make the hassle worth it.)   BTW, I think the worse of all the dyson vacuum purchases right now is the new DC07 Original at Wal*Mart for $378.  One of the local Supercenters in North Las Vegas just added the DC07 Original to its store shelf.  The problem:  The 2 Year Warranty.  Why buy it for $378 when the DC07 All Floors is available WITH A 5 YEAR WARRANTY at $399 before a 20 percent discount at several retailers.  Dah?  My sense is Wal*Mart and/or dyson will either lower the price and/or dyson will extend the warranty to 5 years.  If not, the DC07 Original will not be renewed and will go the way of the DC07 All Carpets.  Collectible. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by planethoover on 11/18/06 at 1:39am Carmine, I do agree with you regarding the service aspect.  LG washer owners with issues are having serious problems getting good service as is stands, because they did not establish a good service network at the same time they started heavily promoting the TROMM (and sadly, raising their prices). If the Iridium had been sold under LG's label and not Sears', though, I may have been tempted to pass it up for that very reason....but I've had pretty good experiences with Sears @ Hoffman Estates for getting parts....of course, service may become another matter, and I'm actually quite concerned that the parts division will be run differently under the new KMart influence.....but that's a whole other story.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by M00seUK on 01/20/07 at 9:07am Background to Dyson's Youtube video demonstration :- http://publications.mediapost.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=54148

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Dyson_Chris on 01/20/07 at 9:44am So that was a Dyson ad all along..

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by old-timer on 01/20/07 at 9:59am And the vacuum wars continue. I just wish they would put all this time and effort into the product to give the consumer their moneys worth............. B.T.W. the dc17's brush roll,looks just like the one used in the fantom upright. so much for being innovative.............  O.T.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/20/07 at 7:19pm old-timer wrote: so much for being innovative.............  O.T. Hello Old-Time Pro: There is a widespread theory that all dazzling innovations end their days as commodities: Products that anyone can make and that are bought only according to their price.  Columbia Business School's Bruce Greenwald once expressed this view with the quip:  "In the long run, everything is a toaster." What did he mean by this?  Since the first commercially successful toaster was made by General Electric Co. in 1909, improvements have arrived regularly: bread grilled on both sides (1919); automated toasters (1940's); toaster ovens (1950's); and digital toasters (1990's).  But at the end of the day, after 80 years of evolution, and all is said and done, toasters get judged not on innovation but on their performance and function: Toasting bread.  Vacuums are the same.  IMHO. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 01/21/07 at 2:12am A dyson commercial. Mike_W. wrote:  You can see that it cannot be classified as an experiment, but a commercial for dyson.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by old-timer on 01/21/07 at 11:52am Hi Carmine,  I think i understand what your saying[a new twist on the same old]. At this stage of the vacuum cleaner game there has not been really anything new for guy's like us that have been doing this for longer than we care to remember. For the new people coming into this industry, they think if the Companies say it it must be true. Unfortunatly these new innovative companies dont want us '' old'' guy's anymore. Why? Either were too smart, or too dangerous.........  O.T.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 01/21/07 at 12:52pm We here in the U.S. appear to be a very bored and fickle public.  It's hard to imagine a society now so acclimatized to paying a lot for a little bit to get its head around the idea of real quality again. As an instance, we now buy and wear clothing with the makers name boldly stamped on it for all to see.  If your shirt says, Calvin Klein it's supposed to be good.  To my amazement this seems to say to no one that the need for a name show probably points out a huge lack of imagination that's hindering the rise to distinctive product that can be recognized without a name plate on it. Quality sadly no longer is a requirement for purveyors of mainly outsourced vacuums -- buying low and selling high is. Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by debbied on 02/03/07 at 2:25pm Is dualcyclone out there anywhere? Can anyone tell me where to get a replacement hepa filter for the Fantom FM718? Thank you in advance for any help! Debbie

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/03/07 at 2:41pm JimB wrote: It was only a matter of time that the video sharing services saw the same repurcussions of the music sharing services.  Only question now is will the companies go after those who downloaded material like the music industry did? Well, if VIACOM's "order" to YouTube is any indication, then you may soon have the answer to your question.   Carmine_Difazio wrote: Chris: After the announcement of the purchase of Youtube by Google I read a follow up article saying that the Youtube website planned a software filtering to identify potentially unauthorized materials (copyright materials used w/o the consent of the manufacturers) for review, editing, and exclusion from the site.   My sense is that this video, and possibly others, was voluntarily and/or involuntarily removed in preparation for the software upgrade to the site.   Carmine D. After several months of "business" negotiations with no settlement, VIACOM is "ordering" Google/YouTube to cease and desist 100,000 videos of copyrighted and patented VIACOM materials.  And asserts the filtering device is not in place/does not do what it was supposed to do. I don't know yet the exact details of VIACOM's "order" and the punitive damages it plans to recover.  I suspect huge dollar numbers are likely.  Fortunately for YouTube, Google has deep pockets.  Unfortunately for Google, litigants always go after other litigants who have the deepest pockets. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Mike_W. on 02/03/07 at 2:46pm debbied wrote: Is dualcyclone out there anywhere? Can anyone tell me where to get a replacement hepa filter for the Fantom FM718? Thank you in advance for any help! Debbie You can purchase filters most places your vacuum cleaner is sold.  You could look here- http://www.fantom.com/fantom/productdetail.aspx?pid=BCFC709F-7A78-4484-8539-5454F30C32FF(Euro-Pro+Base+Catalog)

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by debbied on 02/03/07 at 3:24pm Thank you so much, Mike! I found it and ordered it. Debbie

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/14/07 at 12:45pm An update on the status of Google and YouTube's unauthorized use of copyrighted material: A group of media companies including News Corp, Viacom, Sony Corp, General Electric Co.'s NBC Universal, Time Warner Inc. and Walt Disney are pointing the finger at Google and accusing the Internet giant of benefiting from unauthorized use of copyrihted material.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 02/14/07 at 3:53pm Hi Carmine, I don't mean to divert the topic of this thread for long but out of curiosity, can you tell me if there's any strong indication that sites like YouTube will no longer be allowed?  I understand and appreciate the aspect of intellectual property but YouTube is basically an online of example of what people have been doing everyday since the invention of cassette and video recorders.  I recall many a copy of a popular album back in the day being being passed on to friends by the original buyer. Having a personal interest in music production, there is a part of me that stronlgy appreciates the development of protections meant to insure my possibilities where profit is concerned.  On the other hand there is that wonderful thing about word of mouth and the "good press" that comes through sharing music tracks and videos that is also beneficial to those offering whatever their art is to the public. In any event, uploads to YouTube, cannot be copied (or not easily copied) by other users and copies supplied to others by those who upload are not sold to those who request them.  Albeit they may be using material without express permission, how are YouTube and Google making money if they are not selling, directly or indirectly, without benefit of license. Having to snatch a penny for every little thing, in the long run, does more harm than good.  Last night I found a couple of clips that the late great Carmen McCrae had done for TV more than twenty years ago.  Couldn't copy them and didn't want to.  Yet the ability to view this little part of history I had never seen before was priceless because it is now at least logged in my memory.  That to me is great. Regards, Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/14/07 at 4:58pm guess_who wrote: Albeit they may be using material without express permission, how are YouTube and Google making money if they are not selling, directly or indirectly, without benefit of license. Venson Hello Venson: From the depositions, YouTube and Google provided business support to two Web sites "suspected" of offering illegal film downloads.  These sworn statements indicated that Google representatives sold ads and keywords to these two Web sites that allegedly helped users illegally access copyrighted material.  The Google representatives knew they were doing this and had a close relationship with the two Web sites.  Google declined comment but did not deny the allegations by the media group executives. At the core of the media companies' dispute with Google is their claim that Google deliberately directed traffic to Web sites that were engaged in fostering piracy.  This lead the media companies' executives to question Google's internal controls.  Google is cooperating. The media companies regard Internet piracy (the unauthorized online transfer of movies, music and other copyrighted content) as a major threat to their businesses and claim that it has already cost them BILLIONS of dollars. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by M00seUK on 02/14/07 at 6:18pm The content producers concerned don't generally mind their works being shown on YouTube, it's of a very low quality compared to even standard TV. It's similar to music being played on FM radio, in that it's of lower quality and promotes the retail sale of the real thing. Only difference is that the unlike radio, the copyright holders (and performers) don't get a licensing share of having their work showcased. In time, Google (and others) are working towards a system that automatically identifies the registered rights holder of the work uploaded and depending on the wishes of the rights holder, either denies the content being listed or allows it to be listed and passes a proportion of the advertising revenue back to the 3rd party.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/16/07 at 1:08pm While US and global media companies are grappling with how they are copensated when their material is shared online, a Belgian court said Google Inc. can't post news articles from local newspapers on its Web sites in Belgium.  The Brussels Court of First Instance ruled Google can't offer any links to articles or post any articles or photographs from German- and French-language Belgian newspapers.  The Court is fining Google $30,000 a day starting in September 2006 for the copyright violations.  The plaintiff was asking $1.3 MILLION a day from Google. The ruling may spur other lawsuits from news associations.  Already Agence France Presse, the French wire service, is suing Google in US District Court in Wash DC.  AFP is demanding payment when Google uses its excerpts in the US. In the US, the Author's Guild and major publishers backed by the Association of American Publishers have brought TWO separate suits against Google in US District Court in Manhattan alleging abuse of copyright material by digitizing books without permission. The plaintiffs in the above suits said that they are open to letting Google use their materials as long as Google pays for them. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by old-timer on 02/16/07 at 1:23pm Hi Carmine,so are you saying it's all about the money[like it's always been?]  O.T.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/16/07 at 8:02pm Hello Jimmy the Pro: Very true.  As the colloquialism says: "There is no such thing as a free lunch." Charles Gibson on the Evening News did a feature on You Tube and Myspace.com showing a new use for the internet Web sites: Assisting police and authorities with tracking down criminals and law breakers.  Video tapes of persons caught in the crimes are aired on the Web sites with the hope that people watching will provide tips/leads to the police to nab the offenders.  It works. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/27/07 at 8:28pm Google is making the same mistakes that made Napster go belly up a decade ago. Unable (unwilling) to strike a money deal with Viacom recently, the media giant demanded Google remove 100,000 of its videos from YouTube. Viacom then signed a deal with upstart video service Joost.com.   Did this spur Google to start talking turkey with the other media firms?  No!  Google let deals with CBS and others fall by the wayside. Google faces even more than a threat of of copyright lawsuits:  It faces competition.  YouTube's most popular content isn't home grown videos but clips of TV shows.  As other meida giants follow Viacom's lead and strike deals with other sites, YouTube's share of eyeballs will fall.   Like iTunes, these rivals will share their sales with the studio moguls.  And Google will push TV producers right into the open arms of the competition.  You can't run with the big dogs if you aren't one yourself. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/07 at 7:56am London BBC begins showing excerpts on YouTube "The British Broadcasting Corp. began showing excerpts from its news and entertainment programs on YouTube video sharing Web site Friday becoming the first international broadcaster to ink a major deal with the Google-owned portal. In an agreement that analysts described as a key step for both the BBC and YouTube, the British broadcaster is offering three branded channels on the site, including one showing up to 30 news clips a day." Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/07 at 10:32pm Carmine_Difazio wrote: After several months of "business" negotiations with no settlement, VIACOM is "ordering" Google/YouTube to cease and desist 100,000 videos of copyrighted and patented VIACOM materials.  And asserts the filtering device is not in place/does not do what it was supposed to do. I don't know yet the exact details of VIACOM's "order" and the punitive damages it plans to recover.  I suspect huge dollar numbers are likely.  Fortunately for YouTube, Google has deep pockets.  Unfortunately for Google, litigants always go after other litigants who have the deepest pockets. Carmine D. It's official, VIACOM is suing YouTube (Google) for $ ONE BILLION.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/07 at 8:52am guess_who wrote: Albeit they may be using material without express permission, how are YouTube and Google making money if they are not selling, directly or indirectly, without benefit of license. Venson Hello Venson: In reading the details of the VIACOM lawsuit, an excellent point is made.  Since VIACOM's media shows appeal to a younger audience who are more internet savy, VIACOM fears that many will forgo tuning into the shows and view the clips on YouTube instead.  VIACOM argues that this will result in fewer viewers and hence less ad money and sponsorship. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/07 at 2:38pm Carmine_Difazio wrote: [quote author=guess_who link=1160347664/60#60 date=1171486426] Albeit they may be using material without express permission, how are YouTube and Google making money if they are not selling, directly or indirectly, without benefit of license. Venson Hello Venson: In reading the details of the VIACOM lawsuit, an excellent point is made.  Since VIACOM's media shows appeal to a younger audience who are more internet savy, VIACOM fears that many will forgo tuning into the shows and view the clips on YouTube instead.  VIACOM argues that this will result in fewer viewers and hence less ad money and sponsorship. Carmine D. [/quote] And while YouTube doesn't insert ads into the VIACOM media clips, it does put text ads alongside search results , AND that makes Google money.  Making money on someone else's property is not nice, let alone (usually) legal, so VIACOM sued Google-YouTube.  ONE BILLION DOLLARS.  (Such was the case with the dyson product ads (including the AirBlade) that headed/trailed "The Vacuum Cleaner Ball Test" which included dyson, Kenmore, HOOVER WT 2 and Euro-Pro Infinity vacuums.  YouTube subsequently pulled the video clip.) Google/YouTube maintains that it uses software to filter copyrighted material AND pulls videos/clips if the originator objects.  And YouTube makes good on the promise (The Vacuum Cleaner Ball Test).  But................Why should the media companies and product makers "police" Google/YouTube clips for copyright violations and infringements?  This results in additional unnecessary expenses for them.  These "policing" expenses should more appropriately be borne by the copyright offenders (Google/You Tube) not the victims (VIACOM and myriad others). Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/07 at 10:06am Google-YouTube struck a deal with GE'S CBS Corp which allows YT to show highlights, postgame news conferences and other clips from the TV network's telecasts of the NCAA (March Madness) basketball tournament.  CBS split from VIACOM last year and VIACOM announced it is suing YT for "massive intentional copyright infringement." The deal for the NCAA tournament will add a CBS "channel"n YT.  CBS and YT will share the revenue from an exclusive advertising sponsorship from General Motors Corp's Pontiac Division.  The companies did not detail expected revenue from the partnership and/or how they would split the GM ad money. Poster's Note:  It appears that the old line media moguls (at least BBC and CBS) found a business solution to bridge with the new age media (internet users) providers.  "East meets west."  And the consumers, who have spoken, have won.  ONE BILLION $ sounds like a big figure.  But what's at stake is VIACOM's capitalization valued at $27 BILLION.  Time for the old line to move into the 21st Century of media users. Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 03/19/07 at 9:21pm Hey Carmine, How are you?  I replied to your post the other day but it would not upload to save my life.  (Life with computers really is a day-to-day thing.)  Anyway . . . No sense in my getting my dander up about Viacom but per your report of the basis of its lawsuit I can only ask, how can Viacom serve up so much baloney without mustard? No matter how they try, large media entities are going to have a hard time controlling every little video and sound clip that someone may feel inclined to share -- and I'll always be glad for that. Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/19/07 at 10:40pm guess_who wrote: No matter how they try, large media entities are going to have a hard time controlling every little video and sound clip that someone may feel inclined to share -- and I'll always be glad for that. Venson Hello Venson: Like you, the consumers have spoken.  And You Tube answered.  VIACOM will have to listen too IF it wants to keep its $27 BILLION in capitalization and grow with the future of the internet generation of viewers. People don't want to watch the full 60 minute show.  They want to view the 6 minute finale, and/or the 2 minute skirmish of words between Rosie and the Donald.  Just like they didn't want to buy the complete CD just the one/two tracks that they wanted to hear.   Carmine D.

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by guess_who on 03/20/07 at 3:11am Hi, By the way, did anyone here know that they've got a whole Sebo X demo piece from Britain posted on YouTube?  There's also some sort of praise piece for the Felix.  Will the maker of the commercial sue You Tube too?  Will Sebo sue someone? And . . . though I know we're quite accustomed to the sound bite by now, I don't think it will elliminate or harm broadcast programming. Venson

Title: Re: The Vacuum Cleaner Test Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/24/07 at 8:21am THis is not vacuum related but is about advertising.  And who knows maybe a vacuum company will pick up to this theme from Honda in the UK and do the same. And you thought those people that set up roomfuls of dominos to knock over were amazing. There are no computer graphics or digital tricks in the film. Everything you see really happened in real time exactly as you see it. The film took 606 takes. On the first! 605 takes, something, usually very minor, didn't work. They would then have to set the whole thing up again. The crew spent weeks shooting night and day. By the time it was over, they were ready to change professions. The film cost six million dollars and took three months to complete including full engineering of the sequence. In addition, it's two minutes long so every time Honda airs the film on British television, they're shelling out enough dough to keep any one of us in clover for a lifetime. However, it is fast becoming the most downloaded advertisement in Internet history. Honda executives figure the ad will soon pay for itself si mply in "free viewings" (Honda isn't paying a dime to have you watch this commercial!). When the ad was pitched to senior executives, they signed off on it immediately without any hesitation - including the costs. There are six and only six hand-made Honda Accords in the world. To the horror of Honda engineers, the filmmakers disassembled two of them to make the film. Everything you see in the film (aside from the walls, floor, ramp, and complete Honda Accord) is parts from those two cars. The voiceover is Garrison Keillor. When the ad was shown to Honda executives, they liked it and commented on how amazing computer graphics have gotten. They fell off their chairs when they found out it was for real. Oh, and about those funky windshield wipers. On the new Accords, the windshield wipers have water sensors and are designed to start doing their thing automatically as soon as they become wet. Copy and paste: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/honda.php Carmine D. Poster's Note:  Thanks to Lori from NJ who shared this with me so I could do the same.

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