Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

We recently purchased a Sebo Felix from Costco.com and my wife does not like it at all.  It runs hot and was heavy/akward to carry as a canister.  Luckily Costco has a great return policy!  The most important feature for her is light weight and she really likes our 10-year old Oreck.  I've gone to both the Oreck store and an independent vacuum store to look and compare.  The Oreck and Simplicty Freedom seem very similar.  I like the high end Simplicity Freedom model F3700 [priced at $399] without the companion canister and $499 with the canister because it has a metal brush roll.  The lower end freedom models don't have two speeds and frankly don't seem as good as the Oreck to me.  At the Oreck Store I tested the Magnesium, which was interesting, but costs $399 as well [$499 with canister].  Also, not sure about buying this new and unproven model although it was incredibly light.  Costco is running a special thru January 15th, where I can purchase the Oreck XL & Canister companion for $248 [$50 off costco price].  At the end of the day this seems like the best value to me, but I'm curious as tot he opinions on this forum.  Thanks very much!  

HARDSELL wrote:

My God, Hardsell where have you been all this time?  How are you? Hope all is going great for the new year.  Anyway . . .

I had my misgivings but I've gained a bit of respect for the Oreck through use.  Mind you, I haven't gone out to buy one for myself but I do think they do the job and fit the bill for many now that there is this new phenomina come to light -- ask anybody to lift more than ten pounds and they look at you as though you're asking them to committ suicide.  (To think I took a liking to a 22-pound LG upright.  What was I thinking?)

While i doing demo duty, many longtime owners walking by would proudly step over just to say the Oreck they'd bought ten or more yeas ago was still running and cleaning well. 

As for the call for high power, it's a myth and not everybody needs it.  Besides which, big power is usually used to compensate for bad design.  All depends on the individual household and the kind of traffic it's subject to.  The needs in a home with kids and lots of company and the requirements of a home where life moves slowly are different.  The Ultimate Handheld didn't seem to lack much and a hurricane isn't neccessary just to clean a bathroom or kitchen floor, go over furniture or do window sills unless we're talking maybe about a houseful of pets. The upright's meant to handle bare floor as well as carpeting and did so well when I was showing them. There shouldn't be any real above the floor cleaning challenges for the handheld to meet but buyers should be made aware that the handheld is meant only for the most general household duty.  We did have have one customer come back to complain that it couldn't handle cleaning the several halls and stairways of the apartment building he owned; really a job for a full-sized vac.

My only beef about Oreck is pricing. The Oreck stores and some chain stores really go off the chart pricewise regarding the simple machine an Oreck actually is. The Hoover Platinum upright and handheld canister hold the trump card here due to not only good cleaning but usual price point advantage.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson, I still read the forum.  I sort of lost desire to comment without Carmine around to dispute my statements  I really miss him. You and Carmine are two people that I really would like to meet.  All has been well for me and my family.  You have a great year also and may you always remain the gentleman that you are.

Venson wrote:
I sincerely hope you never have to own and run an Oreck XL - unless all you do all day is clean carpets and hard floors- hotels love them because they are so fast and lightweight but in the UK, most hotels use Sebo uprights or Henry canister vacs - even if they have suction only floor heads - the hoses and smaller tools cope better for detail cleaning, especially around the air conditioner vents in the rooms and of course crucial to keep standards up met by the hotel and quality assurance organisations. Of course if the Oreck in the UK was priced cheaper than the prices we have to endure currently (base model costs $309-42 from £199-99) which is the same price as a Sebo X1.1, then I'm sure British buyers would probably flock more to Oreck but the lack of a hose and on board cleaning tools is a major downside in my book and having to use an additional machine at the same time, is nothing more than a token gesture and one that would annoy me having to fish it out each time I want to clean dust out of radiator and heater vents.

I wouldn't agree with "big power is usually used to compensate for bad design," however. Look at our Miele vacuums where high power is a welcomed requisite. Maybe that's me though. Having tried bagged vacuums with low motors and especially in the case of the Oreck where the 10.3 litre capacity dust bags never filled right to the top in my experience, therefore being a bit of a waste of money on the bags alone, I'd say high/big power is welcomed - especially in the last stages of a bag when it's about to be replaced and when it's full as a brick. The only exception to the high power, justified full dust bag routine I've found is with the Sebo X1 Automatic/Sebo uprights - the bags fill right to the top, but that's another debate for another day!

Last night I watched an Oreck XL Power Team demo on idealshopping.TV (UK cable channel shopping channel) and wasn't particularly impressed with the still, too noisy motor. When I compared my old Oreck XL to our British Hoover Junior that had the same motor rating, the 23 year old Junior is much quieter when running and its a pity Hoover UK don't still sell the Junior model for stalwarts of what has gone on before. On the channel demo they did a pick up test with the XL on hard floors using bird seed, tea, garden soil and feathers. The woman claimed that the Oreck would pick it all up and it duly did - but beforehand when the bag flared up, the feathers and soil went running for their lives - a big downside with any outer soft bagged vacuum like the Oreck. Then they discovered that the Oreck XL wasn't picking up - it had clogged up. I was beside myself!

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi vacmanuk,

Sorry, but there is actually such a thing as overkill and so I maintain my feeling that gargantuan power is not always necessary to do good work come time to clean.  Despite our living in a "more's better" pushed society of consumers I continue to base vacuuming ability on all those American Electroluxes sold that ran for years on about 535 watts of power and did well in cleaning.  They did do well because of tool design.  Electrolux was not the only brand that used good design to promote good cleaning either.

Roiling the waters as it were by those looking to sell is one of the main drivers of our discontented cries for more and more worldwide.  The power thing is more often about moving product by leading consumers to think they'll somehow end up ahead of the game though they never do.  Not a great example, but offer a car with four, six or eight cylinder engines and ask what people what they'd like to have and the eight-cylinder will probably be their choice.  Most however, will opt otherwise not becuase the idea doesn't strike them as a nice one but due to the cost to run the biggest one.  (By the way, talk about the discontented, I just got an alert for an article where it's being claimed that vacuuming is harmful to our health.)   The end assessment was more or less that central vacuums that exhaust outside are "the answer".  So, you see the debate over which vacuum and what type could go on forever. 

This happens with everything.  I've been recently faced with having to research and think on buying either a 1,000-watt food processor or one that runs on 700 watts.  (My last machine was actually used slightly less power draw.) Did the idea of a thousand watts of juice prove -- pardon the pun -- a turn-on?  Oh yeah, but I decided to use a little common sense.  I of course used my previous food processor for everything and will do the same with its replacement.  But, after careful thought, I decided 1,000 watts of power might be fine for a household larger than mine and that I can live without it.  I'm not running a restaurant.  If I have any reason to require handling amounts of food larger than I ordinarily do I can just split a big  recipe into batches and do just fine.

As far as vacuums in general go, there are any number of machines that I'll not be buying that someone else will find suits their need -- and likes -- to a tee.  I think Riccar's and Simplcity's lightweight uprights are more noisy than Oreck but Riccar/Simplicity apparently hasn't gone broke yet.

Whatever we choose, I can most assuredly say we do not need diswashers or washing machines that go to the max by way of power and water consumption.  This also applies to vacuum cleaners and any number of the appliances we're being encouraged to use.  As for my Miele, I don't always switch to high or really need to all the time.  As I've stated before, I give the floors a quick going over two to three times a week -- more to have something to do than because of real need.  If the Marines stop here during maneuvers, yes, I prepared but I have had no such worry thus far. I only worry about switching to top speed if there's been an inordinant amount of sandy stuff from outside tracked in on a given day.  That doesn't happen here often as I also have mats inside and out to catch most of that stuff.  A $30 stick vac can serve here just as well in between regualr cleanings.

The  problem here in America and other parts of the world where we still have the option to indulge ourselves is that we've yet to come to a true understanding of what "enough" is.   I think if we did we could better define the difference between that which is luxury and that which is "cheap" and possibly save ourselve a dollar or two here and there by knowing the good stuff at the middle line.

Venson wrote:
Indulging is a good word to use, but not where all appliances are concerned. In the UK eco friendly appliances like large ones - dishwashers and washing machines aren't expensive when they use up little water compared to Miele and expensive to buy brands. The shoe as it were, is turned on the other foot where efficiency and running cost is concerned. What we seem to do in the UK is have machines that are eco-friendly but are then limited on the specs, forcing the buyer to indulge in extra wash programs, even if they will never use them. But then, large appliances run up electricity bills - vacuum cleaners do not even though some brands go to extra lengths to produce Eco branded models.

Although I've preached to how good our old Hoover Junior is that used a 400 watt motor, it's suction through the hose was feeble and not of much use. It got so bad that at one point Which UK in the 1980s put a public warning about Hoover tool kits that just weren't worth the money when the power was so low and suction through the hose was pretty weak. You may not always switch to high or low power on your Miele - but at least you have the opportunity to - the Oreck doesn't have an onboard tool system - and it wouldn't saddle the machine with extra weight if Oreck actually researched what other brands are doing - with light rubber hoses and lightweight plastic tools - look at Sebo's K series where the tubing is lighter than Miele.  This would make the vacuum cleaner a much more versatile machine than it is - instead of saddling owners to whip out an extra canister vacuum when they want to clean above the floor line.

Busy parents, young couples with daily time limits and professional singletons who work long hours just won't put up with having to use two vacuums for dry dirt collection in a daily cleaning session. You've mentioned that life is slower - but not as far as I'm concerned, or the amount of buyers I've met who want something instant to do the job of vacuuming dirt up and if they choose an upright they'll usually go for models with on board tools and hoses, even if some are too short. Many who can't be bothered to clean manually go for the Roomba option but then discover they can't clean the boots/ you guys call it "trunk" I think/ of their cars or for that matter, getting under car seats and areas they used to access with a hose.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi,

There's a difference in energy requirements as regards the FREE flow of air and the forced movement of air.  When we harness air for work the latter is more likely the case.

Suction is always lost due to design AND no way to get around it -- plain old  physics.  Even with our new, near jet-engine powered clean-air vacs the same applies.  The more you extend the distance between the point where suction is actually applied and the fan(s) that generate it loss begins.  Add onto that twists, turns and tubing that promote friction plus points of connections that heighten possibility of air leaks and you never avail yourself of the full power of the unit's suction fan.  That's why all the extra power is called for.  It compensates for all that's lost in the name of conveniences built in to make us consumers feel warm and fuzzy about the product.  Not to mention that you need power to compensate for the airflow impediment that the HEPA and other filtering medium may add though there for our comfort and safety.

Your Hoover Jr. was here too.  If I get into series names. I'll surely get into trouble but there was initially the all-metal ones with the famous beater bars but relatively narrow cleaning paths that led to later versions called the Lark that had a standard-size upright's  cleaning swath.  They eventually disappeared and the Lark became the name for a Hoover stick vac, also out of Britain.  The UK version had a tool kit but ours didn't offer much in that area.  However save for the very last, the Larks with revolving brushes had basically the same attachment set up -- an adapter that directly hooked onto the fan port after the belt for the brushroll was slipped off the drive shaft.  The hose locked onto the adapter.  That's about as good as you can get for a low wattage machine.  We had lots of brands of 300 to 400 watt full-sized uprights that used the same sort of tool hook-up.  Even Hoover did in the beginning. Not many compared to canisters that were a couple hundred watts more but -- none of the canisters compared to those uprights for rug cleaning.  Howeverf . . .

We went years here without any warning -- or apology -- that regular size Hoover upright's tools weren't worth much.  I'm speaking of course of the tool kits that hooked up via an adapter which got the user around having to remove the drive belt for he agitaor.  The problem was finally addressed not with a "fix" but the hard-bodied, clean air Hoover Dial-A-Matic.  However, that is not to say that the prior models were bad cleaners but that above the floor work was not what they were "designed" for.  They were made to clean carpeting and tool sets were more an after thought.  Many people that could use a vacuum cleaner, then and even now still say, "What do I need one for?  I don't have any rugs."

I don't believe I said life is slower.  I meant to convey that the indiviual lives of consumers move at differnet paces and each has its unigue requirements. what's good for my home may not be good for yours.  That is why high-powered machinery is not always necessary.  As for vacuum "teams"  like Oreck and Hoover's Platinum series -- an upright and say an easily portable canister -- they can well suit the home of a single occupant or a full family.  Some of the best things I learned about housework came from my now gone  Aunt Lucy.  For one, while in the kitchen cooking, keep a sinkful of water and detergent at hand so that you can wash up the utensils you using as you go along.  It gets you out of the kitchen faster if you don't have a dishwasher.  Next thing was, do it when you see it.  Tending to small things as they come into notice rather than waiting and lumping them all together on a Saturday can save you from  facing cleaning days that call for everything to be done.  Where is this going?  A decent lightweight vac and an equally decent portable can make tending to different duties easy not hard AND not impractical.

If you think furiture needs a quick spiffying up one small machine can quickly be gotten of the closet and be put back in iminutes when the job's done.  The same for floors, with the right euipment, why walk in and think, "What am I going to do about this rug?" Do it then.  Unless you're living in something the size of the Taj Mahal, a lightweight can be out and the problem can be solved in in ten or fifteen minutes IF you're more or less religious about regular vacuuming.  If you're not, that's where your work will come from.  Not waxing romantic or anything but the light vacuum teams also promote the sharing of work.  Someone can take care of a specific task in one place in the homme while the other can get on with other vacuuming needs elsewhere.  As well a machine a kid can handel -- after being taught it's careful use -- is great.  They can learn ot work along with you and they will also learn how to manange tasks that they'll be doing one day for themselves.

For those of us living on our own, maintenance by way of taking things on as they come cab be quite aided by these smaller vacs.  You don't have to lug out a heavier counter part if all yu want to do is go over the rug or give furniture a fast going over.  I the price is right, that kind of convenience is almost luxury. 

Almost forgot -- check this out: http://shopping.yahoo.com/articles/yshoppingarticles/778/reliable-kirby-vacuum-sweeps-away-most-of-the-competition/

Venson

Well, if you go by what you say that suction is always lost due to design, and onto the twists, turns and tubing that promote friction…thus leading or at least contributing to possible air leaks, you will agree that some brands buck the trend. A low energy vacuum cleaner that has sealed suction - one brand I can think of is the SEBO X / Windsor Sensor series. They don't sell on high power - they're not that powerful - but they do sell on the reliability, design and longevity. If you've repaired them then you'll know they aren't the best for accessing the belt if it does go - but beyond that the X is a pretty serviceable machine that the owner can do themselves. I bet there's a numerous amount of machines where the same can't be said.

As for the Junior, yep I forgot the U.S had the Lark. You guys had the best of Hoover of course being U.S origin and we had the same model as your Dial A Matic, albeit in simpler form called the Junior Compact/Junior Deluxe that lacked the variable suction dial at the back. There were UK Dial-A-Matic's too but they sold in low numbers. The adaptor to the fan was the best solution for suction but Hoover UK went and dulled the design on their last Junior U1104 models by giving it a flat adaptor that snaps onto the permanently moving brush roll plate, thus the suction would have to travel further for it to meet the dust channel on the suction plate and being farther away from the fan. Dust inevitably just used to lie on the surface of the adaptor plate and not being sucked up into the machine.

Certainly if I lived in the U.S I'd probably find life very easy - your homes are naturally bigger than ours, most have Air con where we don't and compared to the U.S, the U.K is a very damp country. As a vacuum cleaner enthusiast however, I'd probably find it harder to keep one vacuum due to the myriad of brands and models you've had through the years and where pricing is concerned, mostly cheaper than the UK, although our previous posts on here show that the German brands are cheaper in the UK than the U.S A fact of life, probably for the moment.

However, whilst you meant to convey that the individual lives of consumers move at different paces, the young generation today are displaying a very lacklustre attitude to mostly everything unless it's offered up on a plate, that they do very little work to get where they need to and in terms of cleaning, I've had some real eye openers. From watching a girl hunch over with a cylinder vacuum because she didn't know the suction pipes could be adjusted for height, to a male worker who thought running over the power cord with an upright (and its brush roll turning) was always safe to do.

Interesting info about your Aunt - my mum was taught very similar to you and my mum taught me. I was training up a young man the other day about washing dishes - he was taught to wash the dishes in hot water and washing up liquid before letting the dishes drain. Not for me - because even after you let the dishes drain, there's always the chance they'll still have washing up liquid coated on them - and I've fried up onions before in a frying pan that had the most unusual smell of Melon enhanced detergent and olive oil - NOT NICE. He was most surprised when I asked him to rinse the dishes in a separate basin before drying them or letting them sit to air dry.

Similarly, when I was his age, living away from home and studying i had to live with a set of guys, one of whom was the worst for cleanliness and used to (without a word of a lie) boil wash his underpants in a stove pot on the cooker and used the microwave to dry the clothing!!! My point is this - even if lifestyle products are taking over from standard means of appliances that were once seen as labour saving - many UK buyers don't go for upright vacuums that don't have a hose on them. The U.S are different, U.S buyers are different and it's not a bad thing or a good thing - but at least we all have a choice as to what we can buy. It just so happens however that the U.S has a larger amount of older, dirty fan low wattage vacuums than the U.K.

Lastly your report link was a good read. Good to see a lot of different brands - but interesting that of those shown - none were bagless.

vacmanuk wrote:

HI vacmanuk,

Dishes should always be well-rinsed after they've been washed -- where is this kid from?  BUT, I have to admit, I've dried a pair or two of socks in the microwave.

I should mention that our "milk and honey" days dried up a long time ago -- we're just not ready to believe it yet.  Some do have spacious homes but lots do not and, whether owners or renters, lots of comprises over what you'd like as opposed to what you've actually got to work with are made literally by the hour.  There is indeed a wide choice of acoutrements for the home here BUT they have to be paid for.  Due to general climate, depending upon where you live, and also climate change for some an air conditioner is almost a necessity.  The height of that necessity is added onto if factoring in those more to susceptible to problems because of elevated heat --  the elderly and young children.  Nonetheless, the buck doesn't stop with the purchase of one.  In New York City, a hot summer while living in a small one-bedroom apartment cost around $150 in electricity per month to run a 6,000 BTU unit -- a small machine.  I can't imagine what it costs to run a home's central air conditioning through a whole summer.

Large appliances may be highly attractive due to being more energy efficient these days but most cost and arm and a leg to buy.  Imagine needing to shell out well over a thousand dollars, sometimes nearly $2,000, for a refrigerator, or  clothes washer or kitchen range when your job situation is shaky or you don't know where the next job's coming from. 

Though it wouldn't hurt them to bone up on cooking basics, our young people here are indeed facing all sorts of challenges though seeming a little too laid back but I think they're taking the sensible approach.  They're trying to make the best out of what they've got as they attempt to get by. They have a lot to worry about.  Fallout from the bad economy and job market -- which still is no great shakes-- remains a hard hit for kids and everyone else here from all economic strata.  I know lots of people, both the young as well as the more mature, who have been actively seeking work not for months but a couple of years and have still not found  jobs.  There's lots of kids, just out of school or leaving soon, wondering where are they going to go?

That said, average consumers' vacuum cleaner choices may be becoming more  limited than we might think not by lack of availibility but directly because of cost.  Take my word for it, coaxing encouragements to spend a little extra and "buy ahead" don't wash well these days.  As far as price goes these days it is difficult to get a lot of consumers willing to pass the $200 mark when looking for a new machine. 

Venson

The UK is pretty much the same - in terms of buyers for vacuums - they don't want to spend anymore than £100 on a machine ($153) and if they are pushed to buy Dyson then they'll go for it (up to $595 or just over $650) and treat it like an investment. Where our large appliances are concerned, washers and dishwashers start around the £199 price range and go all the way to £2539-00 ($304 to $3884) refridgerators go for completely different prices, thanks to your influence (not yours personally, but the U.S style "grande" sized fridge/freezer combination.) The most expensive and largest is a range from a company called Sub Zero and it costs £12,500 (you could buy a car for that kind of cash) equivalent to $19125.00

Our 3 month electricity bill usually amounts to £749 ($1149) on average (including power), and that's because Scotland continually has cold weather, rainy for most days and prevents clothing from being hung outside, or being frozen to the washing line. Also it's very cold all around the year but our summers are very short, so at least there's a good respite of not using any heating as it's usually warm enough to get by without it. But for the most part it's quite expensive to run. The cost of gas used to be cheaper but because it's more precious to get out of the ground, can be additionally expensive to run all the time.

I've managed to get the bill down to £400/£500 however simply by using as little electric light as possible, energy saving lights, low motor powered vacuums (even if the SEBO and Miele models I have have high power, they can be used in the lowest rating) and only using the dishwasher maybe once or twice a week. The washing machine now only gets used once every 2 weeks to try and go through all the clothing I have rather than stick to my favourites and ignore the rest!

vacmanuk wrote:

I think electrical rates are better where I am now than in New York but there has been a trade-off -- I'm now paying for water.  (just once I'd like to feel I came out ahead In some spots I'm told, you not only rent and pay  for water and electricity for light, heating and cooling but trash removal too.  At least I don't have to call "Rent a Frog" or "Lease  a Owl"  -- they're included in the deal for free.

As for cleaning equipment choices, there seems to be only a very limited amount of bona fide vacuum shops in my area -- I'm talking for miles.  Everyone appears to be taking what Wal-Mart has to give here though there must be a Kirby guy somewhere around as I notice them turning up for sale as pre-used regularly.