Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

I received this "teaser email today: http://links.mkt2388.com/ctt?kn=1&m=2735925&r=MTgwOTM1MTgzMTcS1&b=0&j=NzgxMTAyODMS1&mt=1&rt=0
Anyone know what's up with this??

-=Art=-

Carmine and DIB,

Forget about Mole, you two need to be in time out.

As to the lawsuit against Amway, I knew about that, perfectly justified.  I was unaware that it related to IONA.  Against Hoover UK, I would say the same.  When you get into peeing contests over advertising claims, it is always shaky ground, and the wind can blow either way, as James found out in the litigation over the "ballbarrow" name.  Those sorts of things aside, there is the matter of the engineering student, who lost on a 'technicality'.  I'd like to know about that one before passing judgment.
If he really was wronged on a mere technicality, then it was one of Sir James less-than-stellar moments.  But the law has to have lines of demarcation, and sometimes the spirit of the law is trampled by the letter, hopefully not too often.  As to the matter of using patents which have expired, IT IS NOT STEALING!  What theft are you referring to, DIB?  The law is the law, and since patents are unlike copyrights which are renewable, they have time limits, and once the time is up, they are public domain.  Think what you will, but it is what it is.  But please stop accusing manufacturers of theft.  If they were stealing, Sir James has proven he has what it takes to sue and to win. If you meant something else, please explain, DIB. But you really hurt your case for being considered rational when you insist on repeating accusation which are not true.  If you guys are intent on taking moral potshots at each other, you shouldn't cry 'foul' when the other makes a hit.

DIB, I was referring to the original Fantom, the one later called the Thunder. It was the best.  A motor with a little more suck, a larger diameter hose and wand, a little easier to push, and the multi-cyclone, bottom empty dustbin, and viola, an vacuum ahead of its time even today.  DIB, what do you have to say about the wiring harness in the dirt tube on the DC25? And the problematic clutch in the DC07 and 14? 

Let's not forget 8,000 Dyson vacuums find their way into American homes each and every day, and it shows no sign of abating. Dyson has to continue winning an increasing share of the market to sustain that figure, however. The vacuum buying market has yet to decide what the least acceptable life-cycle is for a 300.00 to 500.00 vacuum. That is everything. If is say, 5 years, and people are repeat Dyson buyers, then Dyson's future is secure. If not, something has to change, reliability/longevity must go up, or prices must come down, or both. The market rules.

Trebor

Hi Trebor:

I took a time out.  After 55 plus years of being self-employed in the vacuum cleaner sales and service business and an independent  consultant to the vacuum industry, I retired.  Can't take more of a time out than permanent retirement.

BTW, I've read your posting of 8,000 dyson units sold several times now and I must say it sounds too good to be true.  You know what "they" say when something sounds too good to be true.  It usually is.  With 55 years plus of experience, I get that trust but verify feeling with that number.  What can you offer to assuage my feelings of doubt?

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

I support your standard for success in business.  Is your product better than the competition?  With vacuuming products, as you cogently say, does one/two passes do the job where others take 4 and/or 5 and more but still don't get it all like the one did with one pass/two.  That's the test for vacuums.  

The argument from the other side [dyson DiB-ster] is always "bagless is better" because it's invented by a billionaire with 500 engineers.  Really?  Who cares, except the dyson employees and relatives? 

What can your vacuum, hand drier, fan, do in comparison to the competitors?  When the competitors are one half and less in price than the "d" brand.  Sir James' net worth is declining as consumers gets fooled once and do not continue to buy into the hype.  Success is a marathon not a sprint. 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

That figure of 8,000 Dyson vacuums/day US comes from  none other than Ton Gasko who no longer owns or manages a vac shop, and in fact works for one of the three vac manufacturers who 1) offer American made (not just American assembled) product, and offer multiple models and types of vacuums as well (The other two being Oreck and Aerus/Lux.  He has no reason to lie in any regard, and has been much more objective in his evaluation of Dyson product and design. He has met James Dyson, and while I do not think he wants to see Dyson fail, he has no vested interest in seeing him succeed either.

That's do a little math, shall we? 8,000 x 365= 2,920,000. I have not seen total unit sales of vacuums in the US for 2009 thus far, but if we take 18,0000 as a conservative figure, that is 15% -16% of all new vacuum sales. If you consider that nearly 50% of all household vac sales in the US are at a price point of about $100.00 out the door, then it means Dyson has nearly 1 in 3  sales of new vacuums over 100.00. This is really the relevant figure since all Dysons even the hand vac sell at 100.00. Since 100% sold will not stay sold, lets assume a hefty return of 1/3, still nearly 2,000,000 vacuums/ yr, nearly 10% of all new vacs sold in the US and nearly 20% of all new US vacs sold OVER 100.00.  ALL EIGHT of the vac shops here in town sell new Dysons, because they figure they CANNOT afford NOT to.
If someone comes in wanting a Dyson, they will buy it somewhere. If they need service, they will bring it back to the store where they bought it. If they ask, "What do you think of Dysons?"  The answer of  "I carry them because they are popular" will either result in a sale, or more questions from the buyer. An unhappy Dyson owner will find a shop offering Dysons and other brands more credible than one who does not.  Again the response: "I carry them because they are popular"

All in all the figures are quite plausible. 

Trebor

Hello Trebor:

Where did Tom Gasko get the number?  If that is the foundation of your figures, and it is, I call it junk math.

Carmine D. 

PS: Trebor, here's how my junk math goes with vacuums FWIW.

I would put the number of new full size vacuum sales in the USA from April 2008 to May 2009, latest credible and complete numbers, at 20 MILLION units.  With 17-18 M as new ups and the rest new canns.  

HOOVER TTI easily has 35 plus percent of the market share. 

BISSELL 15 percent, perhaps a tad less. 

Eureka/Lux about 20 percent. 

DIRT DEVIL/Royal easily 15 percent plus. 

ORECK 10 percent or less. 

All other brands, RICCAR/SIMPLICITY, door-to-door like Aerus, KIRBY etc, and imports like dyson, MIELE, Sebo etc. account for the rest.  These are all small players in the new vacuum sales market but niche sellers that are fairly consistent year over year, unlike the above big box store brands and models. 

A reason in part RICAR/SIMPLICITY, whose products I like, are planning to build canns in the USA.  Taking a page from ORECK for USA made.  Canns are on the increase in sales in the USA.  Of the 2.5-3 M canns sold, Kenmore owns easily 25-30 percent of the market.  RICCAR/SIMPLICITY wants a share of that market and thinks the Kenmore cann market is ripe for the taking. 

I wouldn't swear to any of the above on a bible.  But I'd say these are pretty close to actuals for the time period.

As I posted to you, MIELE prints its yearly units on the Web Site: One MILLION made and shipped yearly in 2008.  It is the top seller of high end canns in Europe with 2/3 of the 1 MILLION sold there.  It too, like RICCAR/SIMPLICITY, wants more of the USA cann and even upright market.  It wants to dominate the high end vacuum market in the USA.  As MIELE succeeds and it has, and RICCAR/SIMPLICITY too, they pull sales from high price makers/sellers like quess who!! Yep, dyson.  Reason that dyson market share/net worth going down.  MIELE/RICCAR, SIMPLICITY have gone up.      And perhaps the reason Tom G. is no longer in the dyson camp and instead beds down now with RICCAR/SIMPLICITY.  Sound plausible?????

  Heard thru grapevine that Dyson might void some carpet warranties if used on the carpet. And by usage of their name no less. One company was talked about awhile back. Unigue and their wool carpets. Now there is talk by others that have synthetic fiber carpet having fiber problems after use of Dyson . Not written in stone yet just talk.

No disrespect to Tom Gasko, but given that he does not work for Dyson, I don't think he is a credible source for Dyson sales numbers.    Tom certainly knows a lot about Dyson vacuums and the technology, but I have a hard time believing that secretive Dyson is going to release sales numbers to someone working for the competition. 

I'm not saying that Dyson does it, but company's (as well as politicians) have been known to leak favorable information.  From a consumer point of view, we like to know that we're buying a popular product.   Given the rather large discounts I've seen on Dyson products recently, it's possible that Dyson is discounting vacuums to improve sales. 

What amazes me is the price of Sebo upright vacuums.  It seems like a couple years back, an x4/x5 was in the $550 price range.  I was shocked to see them selling for around $800 at some vendors.  I don't think the canisters have gone up in price quite so much. 

procare wrote:

Hello Procare:

The above is one of several reasons that many independents don't sell dysons. 

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

Several posters here talked about marketing misques that dyson made.  Here's one and your post brought to my mind.  While all other brands, like HOOVER TTI, sold in the big box store venues, dropped prices to compete in the recession, dyson raised theirs.  Now, trying to play catch up by reducing.  The problem is that now with the devaluation of the dollar against the euro, import prices, like SEBO as you noted, have had to go up to make up for the devaluation of dollar.  Dyson is getting squeezed both ways with its pricing.  Also one of the reasons SEBO does not try harder for the USA market share.  Flunctuations in the dollar and exchanges are a business nuisance.

Carmine D.

Actually Sebo are relatively new to the U.S market which is why they went for a commercial link merger with Windsor BEFORE they went into the U.S independently under their own name. Compared to Miele, Dyson and Hoover etc, Sebo only produce vacuum cleaners and are a relatively smaller private company.