Vacuum Cleaners Discussions |
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Original Message Mar 1, 2009 5:50 pm |
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Reply #50 Jul 22, 2009 8:20 am |
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I guess I understand DIBs problems with Oreck..its a whole back and forth thing... Advertising will always have creative exaggeration....I think the Oreck lawsuit is about Dyson telling a flat out LIE....I think the Manual for Dyson says its doesnt CLOG, but can aquire a "blockage"..hahahaha... Innovaion huh... Where do you have to send a Dyson to get get repaired again..I wouldnt know..I have a local Oreck dealer..And how much does it cost to ship a 25+lb vac...again I wouldnt know..mine weighs less than 9lbs...Oh and emptying this Dyson...where does all of that dust and debris go anyway..mostly into the trash and back into the air for you to breath..Talk about innovations. I would bet that there is a Dyson vac in almost every Oreck store for comparison.....
Orecks dont have a need for much improvment over what was created many many years ago. Have they made improvement..of course the inner bags alone are now available in a cloth like material that creates better air flow accompanied with charcoal to reduce pet smells(and the seal off the dirt) . Metal fans that use to chip and shatter are now replaced with plastic that may wear down, but will not bust and get slung thru a plastic housing. the belts that people complain about..are there to prevent motor damage in case the brush gets entangled. Tell that to Hoover owners when the plastic assemble breaks that spins those front brushes( I use to have one). and im sure there are many more improvements over the years. As far as looks go..the NEW Platnium Plus has a carbon fiber top cover. How fururistic and innovative do they really have to get? It doesnt have to look like a spaceship or be that difficult to use...Yes ive seen the Dyson that the handle comes apart and slides thru the slinky hose just to clean the baseboard edges. Bet thats real fun to work when your trying to finish cleaning up for a dinner party or in a hurry becuase the Mother-in-law is coming over.
They have incorporated(bought out) other companins and incorporated thier tecnologies..IE Ironman and Halo. Oreck not only produces a high quality/high warranty vac, but also has Cleaning products, Floor polishers, Shampooers, Steamers, Air Purifiers, Heaters, and a whole commercial line/division of the company just for supplying businesses witht he tools that they need to keep thier companies clean..So is there really a queastion of what oreck spends on new technologies..They found an idea and incorrorated it..they BOUGHT it..didnt steal it or copy it..like some other manufactures.
Sry to everyone..I dont mean to go off on a tangent, but when some are misinformed/uneducated and have an extremly closed mind it tends to bring out the worst in people...
I do own an Oreck(many) and enjoy them, but I appreciate what other companies bring to the table. I generally wont slam any product over one or two bad attributes..all vacs have a negative factor here and there.. There is always a compromise..and that compromise is what connects a machine to its owner.... You dont go mud ridding in a BMW...at the same time you dont take a hugh 4wheel drive truck with 52inch tires on the Audibon either
Personall all the Nah Nahing is kinda childish, but we all like to play in the sandbox at times...lol The Oreck as a mechanical device is antiquated and in the public domain. Any manufacturer is and can continue to freely copy it exactly (save any new design patents). What would make the Oreck dealers and assembly workers have greater job security? Being knocked off at will by competitors or being protected by strong UTILITY patents? Today and for some time Dyson enjoys world monopolies via his patents. In terms of innovation... Oreck is a miserable failure, they have little to NO UTILITY PATENTS. Can Oreck stop TTI or anyone from copying their vacuum and advertising (one pass for example) and informercials? No. Dyson dual cyclone was a perfect/near perfect mechanical design benefit... or broad patent. He had the worlds exclusive. Today he has the worlds exclusive to the best steering vacuuming on the planet - the Ball. Have you not figured out how to bag and capture most all the dust when emptying a Dyson? Sir James and his team created a revolution and is the most copied vacuum and/or in parts vacuum in the world. Miele patented Dyson-like cyclonic’s and recently applied for a clear bin and shroud patent. The Miele spokesperson from the UK said the bag was the better choice (over so-called bagless), yet they are coming out with separator filtration (per Mole, a dealer). Dyson took a pounding on the way they advertised. My guess is, this cost them tens of millions. Have you looked at the false advertising Oreck does or did on their Canadian web site? They claim their vacuums and their company is on the innovative cutting-edge (or something like this). At the end of the day... the sack N choke Oreck clogs and looses suction not unlike any sack N choke. Dyson does not loose suction for up to 1 month (DC24/25) to 4-7 years (DDM DC22). Have you seen the Gerry vacuum informercial? If I were an Oreck dealer or assembly worker (or others), I’d be pretty upset at the Oreck suits. While the Oreck vacuum and marketing is freely copied by competitors NO ONE IS COPYING the Dyson Ball. And the Dyson Ball ranks high in sales per Target, Sears, Best Buy and Walmarts web sites. While having a tube and hose built on-board (incorporated into an upright) so to become canister-like is not new in concept, but Dyson has the cleanest in the business. Dyson proved this market too and now tubes/hoses is standard on uprights (credit goes to Dyson). Oreck’s patents/lack of patents and dates tell the Oreck story well. Oreck is not an innovator searching out innovative ways to solve lifes problems. I know of an inventor who took a UV to Dave Oreck and was turned down. Oreck looks to be an opportunist and nothing more. Dave Oreck spoke at an University many years ago and was asked about inventions and he replied he believed in marketing (vice inventions). Historically, innovation is King. DIB P.S. Is the Ironman a technology? Can you share the technologies patent number/s? How is this sack N choke technologically different to the sack N chokes of the last 100 years? The greater population wants on-board hose/wand [Dyson-led] arrangements.
This message was modified Jul 22, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Reply #51 Jul 22, 2009 9:11 am |
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NO ONE IS COPYING the Dyson Ball. And the Dyson Ball ranks high in sales per Target, Sears, Best Buy and Walmarts web sites.
DIB
DIB:
There you go again! If you are sales puffing with your rose color dyson glasses, fine I can grin and bear the farcical. If however you are making a statement of fact for us to believe as fact, please provide the sales numbers of the dyson ball models [DC24/25] at any one of these retailers for 2008/2009 as evidence. I'm told by several store staffs at all these retailers in LV that there is zero demand among its vacuum buying consumers for dyson ball models. They can't tell me the last time they sold one in the recent past, even with sales and discounts. BTW, did Sir James and his engineers resolve/correct the wiring harness defects on its DC25 ball. The wires come undone rendering the vacuums totally inoperable within just months of purchase. I know at least one authorized dyson dealer for North Las Vegas who has refused to sell new DC25 $#%* for several months now because of the warranty returns on this model for the motor wiring harnesses. He keeps a sample handy to show customers who ask about the DC25, like I did. Here's a question for you to mull and stew over and answer. How much is Innovative technology costing $500 worth if it's dead within a few months of purchase? Carmine D.
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mole
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Location: earth
Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Points: 783
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Reply #52 Jul 22, 2009 10:06 am |
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Before being beaten down about having nothing good to offer, I will say that ORECK and DYSON both market their products in different fasion although the advertizing is put out in the same method,Dyson has the bagless cyclonic,never clogs and looses suction mantra that appeals to the buying public,[HEY OUR VACUUM ALWAYS USE TO CLOG AND THE SUCTION WAS TERRIBLE] So this must work look at all the innovation they put into it.It has a nice long story behind it,So half way through the infomercial or sales pitch on the qvc's etc the potential customers eyes glaze over and buy into it. Oreck goes at it in similar fashion although weight,made in the states, sanitary disposal,remember the 80 year old woman holding the oreck over her head on the cartons in the dealers, Its all in the marketing both DYSON and ORECK have found its nitch markets,is one better than the other [thats for the customer to decide]. As for dyson and oreck ITS BEEN A GOOD RIDE. And he who has the slickest ads will win,and the most money. Lets face it where else can you get people to buy a 89.95 vacuum for 500.00 plus. b.t.w watch out for falling prices,Its getting tuff out there,all that will be left is wally world, and casinos.................. regards MOLE |
lazaruspup
Joined: Dec 11, 2008
Points: 66
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Reply #53 Jul 22, 2009 11:46 am |
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I agree with Mole. The marketing makes all the difference. Take for example, Dyson's infamous Miele-looking vacuum vs The Ball commercial. It makes you think no one could vacuum a house with a standard old vacuum but the Ball GETS EVERYTHING! However, in that same respect marketing will only go so far and things are getting rough financially and especially here in the midwest. I attend a lot of estate sales and see a lot of 2k dollar vacuums being auctioned at these. It used to be you could easily expect 4-500 dollars out of a used Rainbow, Tristar, Kirby, Miracle Mate, Air Storm, Patriot, Hyla, or Vortech Force; any of the door to door niche brands. I actually saw a Rainbow and a Patriot go for less than 100 bucks TOGETHER 3 weeks ago. People are not spending premiums on these things right now and the marketing may help and the innovation may create buzz but pocketbooks are extremely tight. I just bought vacuums for my nieces for college this fall and you know what I bought? Bissell Powerglide 3545's! They were 70 bucks a piece at the local appliances store, they are well built and they can get their bags and/or filters at Wal-Mart for 5 dollars for 3. Two years ago I might have went out and spent 400 dollars on vacs for the girls but now, gonna watch my pennies. It had nothing to do with marketing or innovation. It had to do with the simple fact that they were cheap and accessories were accessible. I've had good luck out of cheap Bissells before if they are well taken care of. So to each his own but I think the price wars are going to continue and soon you'll see more of the high end stuff in Big Box Retail and less as niche products.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Reply #54 Jul 22, 2009 12:15 pm |
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I agree with my colleagues here like MOLE and lazaruspup. But... the "d" brand falls way short on its business model [sales thru big box retailers] while the timeless ORECK excels by sales/service/parts through ORECK stores nationwide. Tho dyson and its supporters here taut more vacuum patents than all the other vacuum brands from the beginning of time, it costs buku money to pay an in-house cadre of lawyers and have on call an outside group of lawyers to protect and defend those patents. Money that a company with falling sales GLOBALLY year over year for the last 3 years can't afford to shell out. To ORECK's credit, it scarfed up it's competitor's technology at bargain basement prices. It owns all of halo's rights now. A smart business move on ORECK's part. It didn't cost ORECK the yearly salaries of 475 engineers on staff and who knows how many more high paid lawyers. Innovation in hard economic times is highly overrated. A simple basic BISSELL Clearview for $70, ORECK for $199, and HOOVER TEMPO for $85 is an easy sell all the time, not just when times are good. Carmine D.
This message was modified Jul 22, 2009 by CarmineD
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Reply #55 Jul 22, 2009 12:40 pm |
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NO ONE IS COPYING the Dyson Ball. And the Dyson Ball ranks high in sales per Target, Sears, Best Buy and Walmarts web sites.
DIB
DIB: There you go again! If you are sales puffing with your rose color dyson glasses, fine I can grin and bear the farcical. If however you are making a statement of fact for us to believe as fact, please provide the sales numbers of the dyson ball models [DC24/25] at any one of these retailers for 2008/2009 as evidence. I'm told by several store staffs at all these retailers in LV that there is zero demand among its vacuum buying consumers for dyson ball models. They can't tell me the last time they sold one in the recent past, even with sales and discounts. BTW, did Sir James and his engineers resolve/correct the wiring harness defects on its DC25 ball. The wires come undone rendering the vacuums totally inoperable within just months of purchase. I know at least one authorized dyson dealer for North Las Vegas who has refused to sell new DC25 $#%* for several months now because of the warranty returns on this model for the motor wiring harnesses. He keeps a sample handy to show customers who ask about the DC25, like I did. Here's a question for you to mull and stew over and answer. How much is Innovative technology costing $500 worth if it's dead within a few months of purchase? Carmine D. Carmine, Perhaps you should try an independent dealer detox program or sit in a dark room with other con men (oops) and confess all the deceptive independent dealer practices. Perhaps you could get your buddy to support you and join you... you know him, the so-called Dyson dealer who’s nailed many Dyson’s to the floor with his garbage side-by-side demo’s. - None of which demonstrate the Sack N Choke filters drastic drop in suction.... If you’ve forgotten, the dealer I’m talking of is the guy you said bought into a dealer program only for/mostly for the warranty work. How come you fail to mention the fact that Dyson’s competitors have finally woke up to the Dyson technology gravy train and this has an impact on Dyson sales as does the economy too? Can you explain why TTI, Hoover UK, LG, Samsung, Miele and many others are all attempting to reverse engineer Dyson’s patent claims and use Dyson patents in their patent application referencing? Samsung is patenting many ways to separate dust from an airstream and attempting to copy the DC18 function. Their patent drawings unashamedly show a DC18 looking vacuum. Miele, Hoover UK, Samsung have all applied for and/or have somewhat steerable upright products that came only after the success of the Dyson Ball. The Dyson Ball is a financial success no matter what independents and frustrated enthusiasts claim. I have posted links to some of our nations largest retailers which told the Dyson sales story. I have seen independent (non-Dyson) data on how Dyson sales rose from nothing (2002) and destroyed Hoover/Maytag share. Will I discuss it here? No. Do I care if you believe me? No. I think you should stand outside of Oreck assembly with a Garry in one hand and an TTI bag Platinum in the other and ask if the Oreck employees feel better knowing their suits refuse to invest in making the vacuum better and protecting their jobs via utility patents. It is only a matter of time before Oreck is forced to close down all/most of their US assembly do to their unwillingness to invent product people want and invent product that give them a worldwide monopoly. DIB
This message was modified Jul 22, 2009 by DysonInventsBig
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Reply #56 Jul 22, 2009 1:05 pm |
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Before being beaten down about having nothing good to offer, I will say that ORECK and DYSON both market their products in different fasion although the advertizing is put out in the same method,Dyson has the bagless cyclonic,never clogs and looses suction mantra that appeals to the buying public,[HEY OUR VACUUM ALWAYS USE TO CLOG AND THE SUCTION WAS TERRIBLE] So this must work look at all the innovation they put into it.It has a nice long story behind it,So half way through the infomercial or sales pitch on the qvc's etc the potential customers eyes glaze over and buy into it. Oreck goes at it in similar fashion although weight,made in the states, sanitary disposal,remember the 80 year old woman holding the oreck over her head on the cartons in the dealers, Its all in the marketing both DYSON and ORECK have found its nitch markets,is one better than the other [thats for the customer to decide]. As for dyson and oreck ITS BEEN A GOOD RIDE. And he who has the slickest ads will win,and the most money. Lets face it where else can you get people to buy a 89.95 vacuum for 500.00 plus. b.t.w watch out for falling prices,Its getting tuff out there,all that will be left is wally world, and casinos.................. regards MOLE On first read I thought you were referring to Oreck. Then I realized the sell a $59 vac for $700.
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HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Reply #57 Jul 22, 2009 1:14 pm |
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I agree with my colleagues here like MOLE and lazaruspup. But... the "d" brand falls way short on its business model [sales thru big box retailers] while the timeless ORECK excels by sales/service/parts through ORECK stores nationwide. Tho dyson and its supporters here taut more vacuum patents than all the other vacuum brands from the beginning of time, it costs buku money to pay an in-house cadre of lawyers and have on call an outside group of lawyers to protect and defend those patents. Money that a company with falling sales GLOBALLY year over year for the last 3 years can't afford to shell out. To ORECK's credit, it scarfed up it's competitor's technology at bargain basement prices. It owns all of halo's rights now. A smart business move on ORECK's part. It didn't cost ORECK the yearly salaries of 475 engineers on staff and who knows how many more high paid lawyers. Innovation in hard economic times is highly overrated. A simple basic BISSELL Clearview for $70, ORECK for $199, and HOOVER TEMPO for $85 is an easy sell all the time, not just when times are good. Carmine D. You have stated that Oreck is having a great year. Where are the figures to show how great sales are. BTW that Halo is great. How many did they sell and how much has it boosted Oreck's sales? Halo is an excellent addition to the Oreck line. Another poor performer to the existing line.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Reply #58 Jul 22, 2009 1:48 pm |
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If it is't my two best dyson friends pairing up again. Business must be bad to have you both here at the same time posting. DIB, very simple on the bagless models for typical bagged brands. They are cloning your fave brand and selling cheaper in a down vacuum market/economy to push your high priced brand out! Dyson may go the same way as halo, and one od the clones might buy up dyson's patent rights dirt cheap. That's what happens in down markets. HS, ORECK did better than your fave brand in 2008 and so far in 2009. How do I know? Tom ORECK told me and all others so on national news [FNN]. It's been posted here. That's why a host of other vacuum brands including the latest Garry are imitating ORECK's giveaways and lightweight products. Your fave brand too. As I said, ORECK bought the rights to the competition at bargain basement prices. Why? Eliminate the competition. Carmine D. |
HARDSELL
Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Points: 1293
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Reply #59 Jul 22, 2009 1:58 pm |
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If it is't my two best dyson friends pairing up again. Business must be bad to have you both here at the same time posting. DIB, very simple on the bagless models for typical bagged brands. They are cloning your fave brand and selling cheaper in a down vacuum market/economy to push your high priced brand out! Dyson may go the same way as halo, and one od the clones might buy up dyson's patent rights dirt cheap. That's what happens in down markets. HS, ORECK did better than your fave brand in 2008 and so far in 2009. How do I know? Tom ORECK told me and all others so on national news [FNN]. It's been posted here. That's why a host of other vacuum brands including the latest Garry are imitating ORECK's giveaways and lightweight products. Your fave brand too. As I said, ORECK bought the rights to the competition at bargain basement prices. Why? Eliminate the competition. Carmine D.
Again, what are those figures. I missed them. I believe that you have said that Dyson fudged on his numbers. I would class Oreck below Dyson in honesty, therefore I need something other than an Oreck's word.
Dyson is not exactly competition for Oreck. Dyson buyers prefer cleaning power over gimmick gifts and a machine that has to be rebuilt annually (at best).
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