Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Dyson is in the news frequently and so a dedicated thread.

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Dyson gets a nice mention in the Wall Street Journal.

online.wsj.com/article/SB123144483005365353.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

CarmineD wrote:

Hello DIB:

Sounds like you missed my post above to Venson.    

For every supposed negative item you attribute to Wal*Mart, I'll find at least one positive [instituting product standards on Chinese toy suppliers before the 2008 Holiday sales season].  Dare I mention the social/economic good that W*M does by its expansions internationally into Japan, Chile, Mexico, Brazil, India etc?  Or..... does it only count as a net good when dyson does it?

My point to you is simple.  It's logically inconsistent to condemn W*M for outsourcing and cast praise on dyson for it.  Malaysia [dyson] is southeast Asia.  China [W*M] is Asia.  HELLO!  If one doesn't understand/agree after several attempts, the word challenge comes to mind but more correctly obtuse.

Carmine D. 

What struck me when I read the WSJ article is that it leads off with Bernie Madoff.  Bernard swindled over $51 billion from trusting investors AND FRIENDS using a Ponzi scheme.  The crux of a Ponzi scheme, as you probably know now, is to convince people to fork over their money who otherwise would not for lack of knowledge/understanding the investment fundamentals.  Why?  Exuberance and greed.  Everyone else is!  If you don't fork it up, you will missout on this great opportunity.  Well 8 plus years later and 8 bungled investigations,  Bernie "made off" with $51 B in others' money.  Why do I mention this Ponzi scheme?  In the past you may recall, I used this same analogy to explain the HSN hyped sales numbers.  It's a basic tenet of the art of deception and flim flam sales.  Like schills in an auction crowd.  Some may call it marketing.  I doubt the good college marketing professor would agree.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

My greater point has always been...  Dyson was forced to do it (move offshore).  Walmart forces MANY to do it (move offshore).


DIB

P.S.  Where or when did I praise Dyson for moving offshore?

The slightly crazy thing about Dyson deciding to move production to Malaysia, is if they'd simply built from there at the very beginning, it would have been a complete and utter non-issue.

One of the benefits of UK-based production, was that the machines were designed and built under the same roof. It must have quite satisfying. These days, it will be replaced with the anticipation of opening a container of pre-production samples.

Not that Dyson should escape criticism; they tended to act a bit superior and were happy promote their domestic production when it suited them. However, the rational was:-

1. Limited planning support in the local area for expansion.
2. Minimal reliance on local employment - other businesses in the area where often frustrated with Dyson's presence as they couldn't recruit for local unskilled labour, because Dyson was such a lucrative employer!
3. While they could make a reasonable profit selling to the UK market, the exchange rate meant that each exported unit was making them a loss.
4. A lot of the components (i.e. motors / plugs / hoses) they required weren't available locally. If you're supplying to the far east, it's a bit crazy to source parts from there, bring them to the UK, put them together and send them back again!
5. For the reason above, particularly expansion being limited, being able to supply the US market would have been a complete non-starter.
6. New IT technologies allow effective communication between different parts of the world, that makes production not being under the same roof, a lot less of an issue than it might have been in the past.

Thanks Moose, good stuff written.

Here is a lengthy video interview of James Dyson.  He voices his concerns for Britain's lack of innovation and mentions many who have already moved their entire engineering and manufacturing operations offshore.

http://cmypitch.com   click > entrepreneurTV.  Registration required.


Carmine,

MSNBC (host) recently said Walmart shareholders “Wanted the head of CEO Lee Scott” until he expanded (i.e. made shareholders money) into international markets.  Unlike Lee Scott, James Dyson’s job does not depend on or answer to a mob (i.e. shareholders).

Moose mentions Dyson paying well, certainly Walmart’s Chinese manufacturers during same timeframe paid only $1- $3 per day. - Fitting for a place where life is cheap. - Fitting for a Walmart shareholder and fitting for the Walmart suits whose livelihood and *future success depend on mob/shareholder approval.

DIB

*If to join another company.

"The slightly crazy thing about Dyson deciding to move production to Malaysia, is if they'd simply built from there at the very beginning, it would have been a complete and utter non-issue."

Hi M00seUK:

It's not the outsourcing by dyson that's troublesome for the Brits.  It's the high prices for the Malaysian made dysons compared to the UK made, IMHO.  I bought a new DC07 pink for $250 made in Malaysia [with a 5 year warranty].  And $45 went to the Susan G. Komen Cancer Foundation.  I wouldn't pay more since it's made in southeast Asia.  Similarly, US buyers had problems paying $500 for the infamous halo made in China.   If German made, sure.  But Chinese made, no can do.

Carmine D. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

 I suspect your China pay data is 2-3 years old.  Using it, if you convert the daily dollars to China yuan which is about 7 to the $1.00 [based on Friday exchange rates, January 9, 2009] 7-21 yuan per day, 630 per month, and 7600 per year.  Probably pretty good for factory workers in China today.  BTW, the Malaysian ringgit is half the value of the China yuan to the dollar [3.46] and has incurred huge decreases YTD including the new year so far with a 2.6 percent drop.  Does dyson adjust its Malaysia contractor's workers' pay upward when the value of the ringgit falls?  This would be a nice "bennie" especially since the Malaysia government recently rescinded the mandated tax subsidies which artificially kept workers' wages inflated by almost 40 percent for many years.  I suspect to attract foreign investment and business.

FWIW, President Clinton signed a full scale trade agreement with China during his second term after both Presidents Nixon [1971] and Carter [1979] lead the way by opening trade lines.  With the China trade agreement, which is still in place, all the powers that be by the world trade countries [including the USA] can be brought to bear on China for trade violations including labor abuses.  W*M was instrumental in President Clinton's trip to China and his trade actions.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

You made no mention of not one (of many) Walmart abuses I posted nor did you defend them.

You have many negative opinions and many unsubstantiated claims of Dyson...  What say you of many factual and documented Walmart abuses?  When the brain damage woman was sued relentlessly by Walmart was this an abuse or was it "just business"?  How many stockholders at any given stockholder meetings stand up and question this or any of the other Walmart abuses?  Or do they keep quite and believe "it's only business"?

Since you insisted in making a Walmart v. Dyson debate here is what the average [Walmart] Chinese worker was paid in 2002...   $.57 per hr (linked below).  Not to mention the squaller these workers live in near their employment nor their many other hardships.  Certainly Dyson paid his factory workers far more in this same year and previous years (1993-2002).  Dyson factory operators worked 4 days on 4 days off in 12 hr. shifts and were well paid (per Moose).


http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/08/art3full.pdf


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Firstly. let me say it is not a debate about these two companies at all.  The debate [to use your word above] is with you about the logic you apply to these companies.  Specifically [yet again]:  It is logically inconsistent for you to condemn Wal*Mart for outsourcing jobs to Asia and then cast praise on dyson for outsourcing jobs to south east Asia.  If it's wrong for one, it's just as wrong for the other.  Failure to understand the logic/point after repeated attempts is obtuse.  

Secondly, dyson news is far more interesting to me than Wal*Mart.  I can't recall the last time I made a purchase there.  Has to be months ago.  And I believe I bought some florescent light bulbs to replace the bad ones in the light fixtures for my garage.  So I would not be in the dark.  If only it were that easy and simple for you.

P.S.  I'm not sure you actually read the links you provide here [I have doubts] but the one about Chinese workers' compensation [40 pages] is not only dated [2002], but  I can read/find no connection/mention/reference to any American companies and businesses by name let alone Wal*Mart as you said.  Would you mind posting/excerpting the specific reference to Wal*Mart/Chinese pay data for $.57 per hour in 2002.   Thanks, DIB.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Carmine D.