Dyson is in the news frequently and so a dedicated thread.

.

...reporters got a little carried away by jumping to the conclusion that it means he IS developing a motor for cars.

Story here  and here.

Hi DIB,

Fascinating articles, I've seen a lot of that surface lately about James' plans for improving the electric car.  But what really intrigued me is the canister pictured, I have not seen that model before.  I looked a bit through the Dyson websites in different countries and it appears to be a variant of the DC19 but I'm not positive.

-MH

Hey Motorhead,

I actually have 2 of these air seperators, it is the DC08.  There are 12 cyclones and a cluster of 3 in the center (which are a little smaller than the outer cyclones).  The shroud is the weak link, the DC21 shroud is much better.  I've been wanting to upload this photo for some time and so I'm glad you asked.  Enjoy.        DIB             Enlarge pic

P.S.  It is still for sale online as a special offer - the DC08

So what's the news?  That's there's really no news!  That's news?  I said that about the original news story when several posters added it here.  It's not news.  It's hype.  Surprised?  Why?  If 450 dyson engineers can't improve the run time on its DC16 beyond 6 minutes on a battery charge, how on God's green earth can it build a battery charged electric car?  Dah!

Look at the facts fans.  What happened to dyson's original business logo and mantra:  Doesn't clog, doesn't lose suction.    That WAS the cornerstone of dyson's claim to fame.  Nothing but hype.  LIke the above newsstory.  It was false.  Untrue.  Dysons clog, dysons lose suction just like all bagged vacuums.  Even after 5127 dyson prototypes. 

What happened with the latest dysons DC24/25?  Same price, much more filter maintenance required by users to make the warranty effective.  More time and effort to keep the dysons working properly by users!  Why?  Answer, please.  DIB?  You said you know but won't say.  Afraid?  That's the news that all the dyson fans are ducking.  Why? 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Look at all the pretty parts that break off just like the uprights.Can you say overpriced JUNK

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Hype?  Can you demonstrate a Dyson press release stating Dyson was getting into the car motor (not battery) business?  I have seen not one.  The media gets excited around super successful inventors and leaders.  One misquote led to much news, it spread like wild fire online, and ALL FOR FREE!  This guy is loved and gets much free press, even when he only speaks.  Your fav guy cannot steal press like this.  J

 

Filtration:

I understand very well the Dyson filtration.  It would be most unkind for me to discuss this filtration openly.  I loath the garbage kapok so-call industry standard test done by bad mouthing of Dyson dealers and so why in the hell would I help these desperate rats bad mouth Dyson any further?

 

No Clogging:

Call Mr. O and ask how his bogas lawsuit is going with suing Dyson over the no clogging and/or no loss of suction.  Mr. O circumvented the FTC and the agreed (upon by manufacturers for fast and cheap) decisions of NAD and instead sued.  Those who sell tired product tend to sue.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote

Why dont you tell us ther truth,and say it will cost you your job.

MOLE

mole wrote:

BINGO! EUREKA! That's it MOLE. Mr. DIB's posted here before in regards to one of my posts that he fears saying something without sanction. Why? Due to the possibility of a lawsuit. He has a family to consider. Kudos for his family concern. If that's the reason for his silence about the compromised dyson filtration in the DC24/25, then he should say so. Rather than beat around the bush with all the smoke and mirrors.

Keep up the good work Mr. MOLE and keep your posts coming. I enjoy your analytical and thoughtful observations about the strengths and weaknesses of all vacuums. Even if the truth offends the dyson fans and admirers who hold the Sir Knight in such high esteem.

Carmine D.

Mr. Carmine,

50 years in the vacuum business and you plead with me to explain cyclonic’s?        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Mr. DIB

Absolutely, I'm all ears and eyes.  If that's what it takes for you to come clean and tell us what you know about the compromised dyson filtration on the DC24/25 and when, then so be it.  I'm never too old and/or too smart to learn. 

 Still afraid Mr. DIB?  Do the right thing!  Tell the truth.  The truth will set you free.

Carmine D.

PS:  A sidebar on your comments about the ORECK-dyson lawsuit:  If Mr. D took the route Mr. O took with the lawsuit, you would call him a maverick.  You would praise Mr. D for his unwillingness to take the easy road and instead take the road less travelled.  ORECK does it and what do you say?  You impugn Dave, his company, and his products.  All of which are irrelevant to the lawsuit against dyson which is about the truth.  Where you stand, depends on where you sit. 

I can't and won't speak for ORECK just myself.  I object to the NAD settlement/resolution.  It doesn't go far enough.  The dyson claim: Never loses suction is a half-truth [read misleading].  Dyson buyers are deceived unless and until the claim includes the printed warning: IF YOU PERFORM THE FILTER CLEANINGS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS.     That's one BIG IF.

When people take an oath in a court of law in the US to tell the truth, they put one hand on the Bible and with the other arm lifted in the air and raised to GOD they say:  I swear to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me GOD.  They don't say anything about half the truth.  It is a criminal offense to take this oath and lie.  It's called perjury and obstruction of justice. 

YOU GO DAVE ORECK!

DysonInventsBig wrote: CarmineD wrote:

Carmine D.

Carmine, I find many of the things James does interesting, I'm not an employee.  After much study and thought did I learn what I know of the Dyson filtration, I do not profess to be expert.  I stated my why’s of not disclosing my "learnings" earlier. 

.

I’d love to chat some more, but I am heading out for vacation.  Talk later.        DIB

 P.S.  I am already free, He paid my bill a long time ago.

DIB:

Enjoy your vacation.  We'll take up where we left off with dyson filtration when you return. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Please go and take Carmine and mole.  

HS:

I'd certainly support ORECK and favor its chances of winning.  Why?  The NAD ruling was clearly against dyson. 

Of concern in the legal proceedings is whether ORECK is allowed to use the DC24/25 as evidence.  Why?  The case filing predates these dyson models.  If dyson wins and continues to use the "NO LOSS OF SUCTION" mantra with the DC24/25, then ORECK would have to file a motion to reopen the case and introduce the DC24/25 as evidence in support of its position.  Then ORECK will IMHO win.  And dyson will have to drop the claim/qualify it with a warning about the filter cleanings. 

Either way, the writing is on the wall for dyson.  DIB will avoid any mention of the compromised dyson filtration for fear of giving ORECK ammunition to use against dyson.  Just as MOLE said.

Carmine D.

Oreck HAS no evidence.  Why?   The plain and simple truth of the matter is on the DC24/25, the diameter of the HEPA exhaust filter (which mostly serves the purpose of catching carbon-brush dust from the motor and not much else) has been reduced in order for the filter to be contained in the Ball assembly and eliminate the ducting to the separate filter compartment as on the DC15.  First of all, DYSON errs on the side of caution and believes that the DC24 or 25 will be used to clean a large house with infrequent emptying (i.e. allowing the bin to go beyond full capacity on each use).  Some of you may be thinking that the DC24 or 25 are lightweight uprights and theoretically for smaller homes, right?  WRONG!  Unlike Oreck, DYSON does not make that generalization and believes that any of its machines, regardless of how large or small they are, will be used for any purpose in any size home.  THAT is the reason for the more frequent filter cleaning intervals.  Not only because of the diameter, but because of the potential for heat to build up in the motor compartment in the Ball if the machine is used in a large home with infrequent emptying and the pre-motor filter (which is mounted in the usual spot above the bin) is left neglected over long periods of time.  If the bin is frequently allowed to get beyond full capacity, no doubt a minute amount of fine dust will make its way to the pre-motor filter a few times; more than would occur if the machine was used properly as it was intended and emptied frequently, of course.  Sure, the cyclone separators are good, but as with anything else, can only do so much.  DYSON is obviously aware of this potential.  As anyone can see that has absolutely NOTHING to do with clogging or losing suction, it is just a heavy use scenario.  Obviously if you are going to use a DC24 to clean a 3000 sq. ft.  house and only expect to empty it once (allowing the dirt to pass the MAX line each time it is used), yes, you WILL have to clean the filters more often, that goes without saying!  The filters have to be cleaned because the machine can clean. 

While we're on the subject of filter cleaning intervals for the DC24/25, you may notice the intervals at which the filters should be removed and washed...3-6 months.  Again, that is DYSON being cautious (realizing the potential for heavy use) and warning the owner as such.  In reality, the filters can be left alone for 6 months to a year (if not longer) with regular, proper use (read: frequent emptying during normal cleaning, and vacuum large amounts of extra-fine substances slowly) and the machine will fare just fine under normal circumstances, holding true to the fact that it never clogs, or loses suction.  The same wonderful fact (no half-truth about it, sorry Carmine and Oreck) which is, always has been, and always will be proudly displayed on both the box and the machine. 

The reason this is the first time we have heard of this is because the DC15, due to the separate compartment (and the ducting running from the Ball to said compartment), uses a large-diameter permanent exhaust filter like the others. 

What does this mean?  Two words: General Maintenance.  Filter washing is done at the same frequency as changing the belt on an Awfulwreck, but not necessarily required (usually under normal use the filter is not that dirty when going by Dyson's 3-to-6-month intervals, and the machine is still delivering the same performance it did when new), and MUCH easier

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Hello Motor:

Spoken like a true dyson fan with irreverence for the facts.  So, you're pinch hitting for DIB while he's on vacation?  Did DIB sanction you!  

As usual, you are wrong.  The NAD decision ruled that dyson and retailers are not allowed to say the dyson filters don't clog.  Because they do clog and 36 dissatisfied dyson customers along with HOOVER and ORECK took exception to the dyson claim, they protested the claim saying its hype and untrue, and they prevailed.  Dyson lost.  Hence, the revised dyson mantra:  Never loses suction.  All the dyson references to the old claim have been scrubbed and new product lit and cartons reflect dyson/retailers' compliance.  Some, like you, thought dyson can just move on.  Not ORECK.  Hence the court case.

Did you get sanctioned by DIB to post this info about the dyson degradation of filtering?  DIB is the Forum poster who claimed authoritative knowledge of the compromised dyson filtration.  Not you!  DIB has remained conspicuously silent on the matter [probably fearing the ORECK-dyson lawsuit implications].  You're not.  You poured forth like an untapped well of knowledge just waiting to gush!    Pride and ego, the worse of sins.

Do you know when DIB is due back.  Curious to hear his perspective on your post.  If he's still speaking to you.

Carmine D.

Motor:

How well do you remember your fairy tales?  Remember the one where the dog stops to rest and misses catching the rabbit?  If only the dog didn't stop to rest, it would have caught the rabbit.  IF!  Your post reminds me of the fairy tale. Only your post is chuck full of IF-s.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Dyson has been EXPOSED for what they really are,the overpiced hyped doesnt clean your carpets any better than a 39.95 dirt devil, they just cost more to fix,

IT'S soon to be just another big box machine sitting on the shelf,that has to be dusted off every week[,but are pleasing to look at wild colors] The bins can also be used as a bird feeder,Carmine and I told you so ,its just too bad that the public did not catch on sooner,I must say that the DYSON marketing department is one of the best propaganda machines in the industry,Now we and the public know that the gig is up,Is the return center filled up to the max yet?

Whats next another overpriced hand vac with a sr motor that costs 599.00[HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,........

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine, speaking of fairy tales, this is yet another example of you repeating your own lies over and over again, and eventually believing it.  Sort of like the statement about the U-bend on the DC07.  When I was at Wal-Mart last week to pick up another new machine (more on that later), I noticed the DC07 Original on the shelf right next to it.  I pulled the display model down, looked it over, and sure enough, the U-bend was exactly the same as all of the other DC07s I had seen in the past 6 years.  No changes whatsoever. 

Just like your claim about Dyson being forced to remove the "filters that don't clog" statement.  In the new DC25 brochure, "no clogging or loss of suction" is mentioned several times throughout.  You had mentioned the removal of this statement before the introduction of the DC24/25, and it's still there on a brand new model.  What happened?

-MH

mole wrote:
In you and Carmine's eyes, Dyson is always "soon to be" *something*.  Soon to disappear from the shelves, soon to be "scrubbed", etc.  But it never is.

I'd work on improving my "predictions" if I were you.  The track record on both of your posts isn't that great, to say the least.

Motorhead wrote:

Motor:

Here's the truth.  Within the first year of launch, dyson retooled the DC07 u-bend air way joint.  Making it permanent on the DC07-s and not removable.  It was removable originally on the first and early DC-07's supposedly to allow users to clear clogs/blockages.  It had a yellow thumb tab on it to depress to remove/attach.  People thought it was the handle release and would step on the thumb tab.  The piece came off and most stores' staff didn't know how to attach it.  It remained along side the dyson display model/still in the box never used.  Result:  No suction in the tool mode.  Fix:  Dyson knew a buck item was poised to derail its launch, and made the piece permanent.  Quick like. 

Good thing ORECK stayed the course and took dyson to court.  I have not seen the latest DC24/25 product lit.  But, if dyson is still using the false claim, then dyson is violating the NAD ruling and subject to punitive and monetary disciplinary actions.  Dyson isn't that stupid.  Even the dyson retailers have long dropped the use of the false dyson claim.  

Carmine D. 

Motorhead wrote:

Motor:

The writing for dyson is on the wall.  Look at the UK.  From 43 percent vacuum market share in 2004 to 28 percent in 2007.  Based on the facts, our prediction was accurate.  Dyson sales in Mr. D's country of original are off an average of 5 percent a year for 3 consecutive years steady. 

BTW, weren't you the one here who said dyson new vacuum sales in the USA were 4 MILLION units in 2007?  Was that a prediction?  It was wrong!  Certainly not a fact.  According to the dyson expert here, Matt mmc AirBlade, 2 Million dyson units [not counting returns and refunds] were sold in 2007.  You were wrong by a factor of 100 percent.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Neither you nor mole predicted the Dyson sales to drop in the UK.  Once again you lie.  You said for three years that each new Dyson would put Dyson out of business and I said you were wrong.  I was correct.

You saind numerous times that BB was discontinueing Dyson and again I disagreed.  I was right again.  Your predictions are not so accurate.

CarmineD wrote:

First post here and I am curious.  I keep reading a couple posters saying that Dyson can no longer use this claim and yet :

 "no loss of suction"

and  statements like

"Dyson proves no loss of suction using the IEC 60312 Cl 2.9 test standard on uprights and canister
vacuums and using a test method based on the IEC 60312 Cl 2.9 standard for the handheld.

Dyson proves no loss of suction, best average pick up, and 'overall outcleans other vacuums' using results from
IEC 60312 Cl 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.8, 2.9, ASTM F608 and F558, and DTM 755— an independently conducted Dyson test."

Are plastered all over thier webpage.  Are some here not understanding a ruling correctly, just blowing smoke to make an argument, or is Dyson in violation of a court order?

Hello JackD and welcome aboard:

Here's a synopsis based on my understanding.  I speak for myself and not a representative of any of the companies and customers directly involved in the matter. 

It's not a court ruling, but an NAD ruling.  NAD is a USA industry arbitrator who facilitates cases brought by customers and companies against businesses who make false, misleading, and deceptive advertising claims [read: untrue].

NAD and dyson.  The original dyson claim, also once used by retailers advertising dysons, WAS:  No clogging, therefore no loss of suction.  Dissatisfied dyson customers [read: with clogged dysons that lost suction] along with ORECK and HOOVER brought the dyson claim before the NAD.  Based on the evidence, NAD ruled that dyson could no longer say its vacuums didn't clog [read filters].  Dyson revised its claim to: Never losses suction.  Retailers stopped using the claim in print.

ORECK [possibly encouraged by other vacuum makers sitting on the sidelines monitoring the developments] decided to proceed against dyson with a legal action.  ORECK's right.  That's where it stands.  In court awaiting a hearing, trial and ruling. 

Hope that assists you in getting brought up to date.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

What makes you think the USA is different than the UK?  I quote you this because it was an overused statement on many vacuum forums to convince consumers that the USA would fall for dyson the same way as the UK.  Contrarily, the reverse is true.  We can expect here what's already happend in the UK. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Over the last few weeks, several posters here provided you with incontrovertible proof that all the major retailers are culling dyson vacuums from their shelves with discounted prices advertised much lower than dyson MAP.  MOLE and I predicted this would come to pass with the big box store venues and dysons.  It has.   One dyson supporter, Dusty, recently posted that he agrees with us as it concerns dyson and big box stores.   

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Let's recap 6 years of dyson facts and circumstances in the USA and our predictions.  

The DC07 and DC14, supposedly the dyson signature models [you owned the DC07 but sold it], are being discontinued and sold on clearance by all the major retailers.  The DC07 as low as $289 this week.  Brand new.  From an MSRP of $439.  MOLE and I predicted this would happen.  

The DC11 canister for $499 was pulled off the USA markets after 9 months.  I was one of 2 of the biggest critics of its puny power nozzle as early as April 2004.  Right again.

The DC15 original Ball was launched for $699 in March 2005.  By September, dyson dropped the price to $599 starting with BEST BUY stores, as I predicted .  Currently, it is $499 and less. 

The DC16 cordless hand held has a 5 minute run time.  Disgraceful for a $150 vacuum product.  I was a huge critic of the product when HSN demoed it and one went dead on air in less than 2 minutes.  It is currently being discounted by dyson for $49 with any new dyson purchase.  Right once more.

One major USA rug maker voided its warranty if any of the dyson vacuums are used on its carpets. 

Consumer Reports consistently rates all the dysons, save the DC17, as fair to middlin at best in a field of many less expensive makes and models.  Even the DC17, with an original MSRP of $549, is discounted now for $499 [before other buyer incentives]. 

The DC16 Slim for $469 [supposedly dyson's best selling sku] is currently being sold for $369 and is being scrubbed by most big box retailers after just 2 years on the market. 

The DC24/25 are too new to have a past.  But the filtering is seriously degraded from the earlier dyson models.  Still researching and learning the reasons.  Tho MOLE posted the reasons in a post awhile back.  And we are slowly learning he's right.

The air watts and dirt bin capacities have been consistently down sized with subsequent dyson model.  Now the filter maintenance is also increased.  Making the user more burdened with performing frequent filter cleanings which degrade the life of the filters.  Prices are the same and/higher.

A sad commentary for dyson, its products and dyson fans who praise them.  The only glimmer of hope that dyson can point to here in the USA is the reliability rating it received from Consumers Report in March 2008.  It was second only to Kirby.   But this is the first time it was rated for reliability.  CR adds the caveat that the rating must be sustained to be meaningful.  Time will tell.

Carmine D.

Isn't high product turnover good for a company?  I mean what company doesn't want new product turnover to boost the bottom line with resales?  As I read here there definitely seems to be a healthy "Dyson" debate with a couple of posters on both sides.  It is obvious by the Pro Dyson side who they like, but I am curious what company the other sides posters prefer?  Is there currently a more succesful company that you guys stand behind?  If so how do they hold prices in these economic times, re sell without product line turnover, and how are they currently more succesful than Dyson?  It just seems so easy to nit pick a company if all you are going to do is take the negative side so I am wondering what you see as the current and climbing success story.

Hello JackD:

Can I conclude, since you have changed directions in your posts, that your concerns are satisfied at least for now with the dyson printed claims, their revisions, and the events and dialogue surrounding them?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Not really, I am still researching.  A little confused by the posts here.  Seems to be both some strong support for Dyson here as well as what seems to be some vitriol towards the company and/or product.  I guess I am just first trying to figure out what the animosity is about from both sides as well as trying to figure out some facts as I don't think I could figure them out from this site alone as it appears to be a bit of emotional "gotcha" rather than Pro and Con discussion.  I suspect there is not really a "consumer" debate going on here but a few "insiders" looking to influence the market in thier direction.  I do appreciate the answer and the point in the right direction but in reading the posts I think I might be better off looking for the answer myself.

I guess my follow-up was really just trying to figure out what the Non-Dyson side's "angle" was as the other side seems obvious.  So I really didn't "change direction" in my posts I am still fact finding, perhaps guards may come up quickly here.

Perhaps others will respond and provide some more answers and insight for you. 

Most of the posters here, unlike you, are veteran posters of many years on several different vacuum Forums.  Going back to even before dyson launched in the USA in 2002. 

Not having the benefit of the past history and personalities, it's understandable to look at this site now and have the view you have.  Particularly about the persons who critique dyson.  It's like reading the last page of a novel, learning about the death of the protagonist, and asking why.  Well to get the answer, you need to read the beginning, middle and end of the novel.  Then, it all comes together.  Unfortunately they don't make/sell Cliff Notes for Vacuum Forums with the main characters, themes and plot neatly summarized!

I was in the vacuum business from 1949 to 1992.  I owned and operated a vacuum store in Bloomfield NJ.  I sold the business to another vacuum dealer who still has the store.  He and I still talk and keep up to date on the bsuiness.  The store is an historic landmark on the Newark, Bloomfield, Belleville border lines.  After 1992, I was a self-employed consultant to the industry working for both private and government entities on all matters related to vacuums.  In August 2006,  I retired and moved to Las Vegas.  I receive at least one offer of part/full-time employment every week related to the vacuum business.   So far, I've turned them all down.  Some reluctantly.  Not for love of money, but love of the business. 

I trust your research and fact finding will be successful.  If I can assist, I certainly will try.  If you prefer private emails, that's fine too.  Just send me a message offline and I will answer in kind.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: HI Carmine,

Is this a different lawsuit from the first two?  As I understand the first Oreck / Dyson suit was settled out of court for an undisclosed sum of money.  Part of the settlement however was that Dyson could continue saying "no loss of suction" about any of it's current product sold in the USA.  When the DC18 came out, Oreck sued again over the same thing but the case was dismissed because the earlier case had been settled and was not subject to any appeal.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
I would encourage you to take a look at a DC07 somewhere.  Any that I have in stock have a removable air joint and even the Dyson websites (US and Canada) clearly show a thumb tab to remove the elbow (choose the 360 view)

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

You're in Canada, and it was late to the dyson sales game.  Just the last 3 years if I understood correctly.  I suspect you're getting old dyson DC07 stock before the u bend airway was made permanent.  And the dyson pics are old.  All the DC07-s now in the USA [that I have seen in stores since the launch of 2002] have a permanent u bend airway joint.  The removable one has been obsolete here in the USA.  I speak with experience in several states on both coasts.

It's an important piece.  Without it, the vacuum has no suction in the tool mode. [FYI: The DC07 pink I bought in August 2006 from TARGET had a very permanent u bend airway joint with no thumb tab to be seen and still does]. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

It was not a suit with the NAD.  It was hearing with an industry sanctioned authority [NAD] whose ruling is binding on all the parties who agree to the hearing. 

I took the liberty to highlight the relevant words in your post.  Perhaps that is the reason ORECK subsequently filed a lawsuit against dyson with the DC18 and by-passed the NAD?  As I presume ORECK will do with all new dysons in the USA if the claim is used.  I believe ORECK is being encouraged by several vacuum makers [who are watching the proceedings closely] to pursue legal action against dyson.  IMHO. 

Of particular note for future:  Observe whether big box retailers use the dyson claim "Never loses suction" when advertising dysons for sale by their stores.  Most if not all avoid it.  Why?  I don't know if there is some legal reason, concern or suspicions on their part.  Or, and more importantly, they know it is false because they have real world experiences with new dysons under warranty that clog and lose suction returned by unhappy buyers.  If the latter, it will support ORECK's suit IMHO.  Is there a correlation with these dyson returns and the high number of dyson refurbs for sale?  A question that ORECK will raise and answer its court proceedings against dyson.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
3ish years is correct, give or take a month or two.  If I'm getting old stock, then everybody is getting old stock.  I have never seen a DC07 or DC14 with a permanent UBend (a trip to Future Shop this evening affirms this) .   Perhaps it's just something at has happened on American models?  The Dyson US website also shows how to remove a blockage from the UBend in all DC07's, the pink included. Kind of odd they haven't updated since they launched, don't you think?

I agree it's an important piece.  We make a point of showing our customers how to maintain the product they are buying and most would agree it's a good idea to have access points if a blockage were to occur. Case in point, we removed a pencil crayon from said area after a customers kid was a little over zealous cleaning their room.  The customer btw, had previously bought from Linens and Things...before you go accusing me of not really explaining my product very well :-)

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine, let me ask you a somewhat philosophical question:  Is the U-bend permanent simply because you do not know how to take it off?  Or, rather, because you do not know how to remove the U-bend, does that mean everyone should believe it is permanent? 

Motor, Dusty:

Well let me say this:  The dyson u bend airway joint does NOT come off and stay off as easily as it did with the original launch of the DC07-s.  At that time, it had a prominent thumb tab that users stepped on to release the handle.  Only to learn that the u bend air way joint fell off and no one could replace it.  The dyson Users Guide didn't address it's removal and replacement at the time  Tool suction was zip.  Frequently, the piece was found sitting along side the display models and/or still in the box in the warehouse.

My DC07 pink, now retired from service for inability to perform as well as less expensive uprights, has no thumb tab to remove the joint, has not fallen off ,and has not been taken off since August 2006.  That makes it permanent to me.  Certainly makes it retooled from the original form and design.  How's that for dyson accuracy and correctness?

Carmine D.

Dusty, you may not recall, but it is common knowledge that many dyson users, not just me, and even dyson fans criticized the first wave of dyson vacuums for having miscellaneous pieces that fall off. 

Consumer Reports was most vocal.  Motor should remember very well the very first Consumer Reports review of the dyson DC07.  Why?  It was a lousy review.  Why?  CR was extremely critical of the dirt bin on the DC07.  Why?  The release button to disengage it from the vacuum was prone to be pressed when picked up by the bin handle by the user.  Result:  The user was left holding the dirty bin and the vacuum (18 pounds) was on the user's foot.  There is a picture engraved in my mind of the dirty deed in action in the CR edition.  Not Mr. D's finest hour.

Dyson corrected that problem too.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I think your pink was sabotaged and marked ' for sale to Carmine' .

Are you now saying that the joint is not permanent but not as easily removed?

I purchased my DC07 about 3 years ago and it had the removable joint.  I never incurred a problem with it. 

 

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Yes, that's what I said based on a little assistance from Motor and Dusty.  It's permanent unless deliberately and intentionally removed with effort and forethought.  No longer does it fall off accidently and unintentially and remain off.

Please read my post about the Consumer Reports review and the DC07 dirt bin.  It's a dyson and CR classic.  I'm sure you never had the same problem as CR either with your dirt bin.  Doesn't mean it didn't exist.  Just means dyson, to its credit, took CR's criticism seriously and corrected the problems.  You may not recall/don't remember.  You were not posting on the vacuum Forums at the time, to my knowledge, as HARDSELL.

You're getting better HS.  Use to be you blamed my carpets: Mohawk wool loop medium pile.  Builder grade you called it.  Which it is not.  I special ordered.   Now you say the dyson vacuum was sabotaged.  If it is the latter, it was a permanent sabotage by dyson during the design, manufacture, and production.  It failed not just me but 2 other users too in their home carpet vacuuming.  You know what happens and the result.  Gawdawful ratcheting noise, brush roll stops turning, no cleaning being done.  Since all 3 of us have household pets, the constant ratcheting noise drove the poor animals wild.  Probably gave them permanent hearing loss and fear of vacuums. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

So you incorrectly stated more than once that it was permanent.  What else have you told the forum that was a figment of your imagination?

CarmineD wrote:
Then we also should also say that it is indeed a removable part and that Dyson corrected the problem and it is no longer an issue.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
A good reason to never buy anything in it's first year of production.  Eureka Bravo motor fans, Dirt Devil electric hoses, Electorolux switch rockers, anything built by Chrysler....they  were all things that were a nightmare in the service department.

Dusty

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

It's permanent until you take it off.  Your pants are permanent until you take them off.  Pants don't fall off.  Shouldn't!  That's why there are belts and suspenders [for us old guys].

Let me think on your last question, and get back to you.  I'm sure if there is something, one thing or other I stated in error, someone/everyone here would have corrected me at least a dozen times.  Just so I don't forget!

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

You said it for me.  Dyson also corrected the dirt bin problem.  These were givens.  Relatively simple changes and necessary for making.

But the gawdawful ratcheing noise, clutch shut off, puny DC07 brush roll, and self adjusting height adjustment for the brush nozzle head, and no headlight/cord winder are all still problematic.  The reasons dyson is scrubbing the model.  [IMHO].

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

It's been over 6 years now for the DC07.  And they are $289 vice $439.  I still wouldn't recommend buying it to my worse enemy.  There are too many better,  less expensive makes and models now that compete for the bagless upright vacuum market.  And that's the reason in large part dyson's market share has dropped precipitously in the UK in the last 3 years.  Dropping in the USA too.  The same will happen in Canada.  Economics work the same in all markets, for all products, for all currencies.  Just takes time for the market forces to work their way through the economies. 

Maybe different in Japan.  Japanese like Mr. D.  But they also like $4000 toilets that wash your privates with heated water, play your favorite tunes, and emit your favorite aromas.  Consumers that pay $4000 for a toilet are probably willing to pay the same for a household vacuum.  PT Barnum coined a name for them.  He just forgot to say they would all be born Japanese!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Would it be so disgraceful to admit that you are wrong?  You were wrong about the joint being permanent no matter how you twist your words.

CarmineD wrote:

What happens to liars

In the UK the Dyson Brochures for the DC24 and DC25 plus the DC22 and DC23 it pitches them as

DC24 for the smaller home (and the DC22 as well!)

DC25 for the Bigger\larger Home (and the DC23 too!)

So that tells us that Dyson designed the DC24 (and the canister DC22) for the smaller home, thats doesn't mean to say someone with a bigger house can't use it!  Just be emptying the bin more regularly!

If I'm not mistaken in the news article and press release from Dyson (UK) it stated the Engineers were given the task of making\designing\engineering smaller lighter vacuums due tot he fact UK homes were becoming smaller and space was a premium!

Also when I investigated the DC24 in a shop the filter washing (which i believe I posted on here) was every 1 month!  The 3-6 months is for the larger model DC25!

Some of the above info is found in the  'Dyson DC24 / DC25 VAcs: Sir James Brings his Ball back' thread on this forum.  

DC18

CarmineD wrote:
If we used that logic would not all bag models have a permanent paper bag? 

Dusty

DC18 wrote:
Hi DC18,

Yep, the filters on the DC24 are labeled for washing monthly.  We've been using the same machine around the store for demos for a couple months now and the pre-motor filter is starting to get dirty (hasn't penetrated to the other side yet) and the washable hepa shows no signs of needing cleaning. We sell this machine where it is designed for...smaller homes, condos, places with less carpet.  I have no doubt that if you were to use it in a family home with pets and high traffic that the filters would need maintenance monthly.

Dusty

Hi Dusty

Thanks for the info. Interesting to know the filter(s) last longer than a month.  How do you rate the brush bar on this model?  On my testing of the DC24 and DC25 in a shop i preferred the DC25 brush bar over the DC24!  DC24 could be a little more aggressive.  Could do with more brush turfs on the brush bar!

DC18

DC18 wrote:
With not having the DC25 in Canada I can't give you an answer on that one.  The DC24 roller, though sparse with the brushes seems to do a decent enough job on the carpet.  We use  Dysons when we demo Capture or Sebo cleaning powder and the 24 does an admirable job at picking the powder up.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

Close but no cigar.  More like a permanent cloth bag was long the vacuum vernacular in the industry I know and love.  Read on.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Guys:

I took the liberty to repost this from June 29.  It was in response to MOLE on the thread about paper bags for the EUREKA rotomatic.  Nothing to do with dyson and thumb tabs and ubend airways.

Please note my use of permanent in the reply for the cloth bag.  Of course it's not.  Has to be removed to dump and clean.  But a vacuum vernacular for cloths going back to my era.

So goes the generation [perhaps 2] gap in vacuum communications my friends. 

Carmine D.

So you are saying the paper bags and filters that we replace on vacuums are "permanent" pieces?  Trying to figure out what the fuss was all about I stopped by a Best Buy and looked at a Dyson.  That "upbend" thing slid off with a push of a thumb.  Kind of seems like it would come in handy to get stuff out that you probably shouldn't have run over in the first place.  Store staff said it has always done this.  What am I missing?

Dyson is rumoured to be gearing up and putting a new model in to production during September :-

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2008/7/2/business/21702103&sec=business

The article mentions printed circuit boards as part of the new contract - I wonder if this is significant?
Some of the uprights in the past have included small circuit boards (DC15) for brushbar power supply switching, does anyone know if any of the current crop have them?

JackD wrote:
You're not missing anything.  Carmine has a slightly different definition of permanent.

Hello Dusty:

And it's not just for dyson, witness the repost on the "permanent" cloth bags.  Thank you, Dusty. 

 Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine, that statement would hold water IF there was a portion on the U-bend that was thrown away and replaced periodically.  The term "permanent cloth bag" makes perfect sense to distinguish between the bag that is not disposable and the paper liner that is.  But there's no such thing here, and once again, we caught you red-handed and we'll see how you lie your way out of this one, like so many other statements you repeat and believe

Chalk up another fairy tale!

-MH

M00seUK wrote:
Hi Moose, that will be the DC27 which will be launched in the United States in October.  At this time I can't divulge any more details.

-MH

Quick! Somebody contact David Oreck!  He'll be glad to know he can now advertise the new permanent belt feature :-)

Dusty

Motorhead wrote:

From my perspective, obviously the minority, your statement proves my point that the u-bend airway joint is permanent.  No part of it should be unused/replaced/thrown away.  Thank you, Motor.

Carmine D.

the only permanent about cloth shake out bags is that the cat and dog hair gets stuck permanetly inside the bag,who wants to fiddle with this nonsense,

Hows this for a new twist a paper filter bag  inside a cloth woven mole skin bag,with a filter underneath that.

O h im sorry its been done already  ABOUT 60 YEARS AGO.............

MOLE

the only permanent about cloth shake out bags is that the cat and dog hair gets stuck permanetly inside the bag,who wants to fiddle with this nonsense,

Hows this for a new twist a paper filter bag  inside a cloth woven mole skin bag,with a filter underneath that.

O h im sorry its been done already  ABOUT 60 YEARS AGO.............

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:

I guess I'm still confused what the change was then.  If they "changed" it to make it "permanent" but it always has been removable does that mean it used to be disposable?

dusty wrote:

He knows already, I'm sure.  Permanent until it breaks off, and/or is replaced.  Certainly, it should not be used without a belt.  Hence, the belt is permanent.  Just like a permanent cloth bag.  Thank you, Dusty.

Carmine D.

JackD wrote:

I can tell you are confused.  Let me try to assist you in your confusion.  Yes, in fact it was disposable.  Why?  During the dyson launch in 2002, many of the DC-07 display models lacked the joint. completely.   Either it was sitting along side the vacuum, or on top of the vacuum, and/or still in the box in the warehouse without a purpose in life.  As I said, the bright yellow colored thumb tab on the u bend air way joint was an open invitation for lookers to press/step on.  When they did, off it came and it stayed off.  Without the store staff knowing how to re-attach/for what purpose it was needed and used.  Pray tell:  Is it still that way JackD when you saw it??

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Kind of like a filter that doesn't clog...until it clogs.  I get your thinking now.  I wonder if NAD would agree with you.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Jack already gave you an answer

That "upbend" thing slid off with a push of a thumb.  Kind of seems like it would come in handy to get stuff out that you probably shouldn't have run over in the first place.

Pretty impressive.  Jack managed to not only remove but put back the permanent UBend on his first attempt.  It's amazing nobody else could figure that out back in the day.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hi Dusty

Thanks for your reply.  I have never understood why Dyson brushes on their brush bars are spaced too wide apart!  Plus the brushes are very short! The DC25 has slightly smaller turfs but not so spaced out like the DC24 and I have to say when I tested the DC25 and DC24 the DC25 brush bar is a much welcomed improvement over the DC24, DC18 and DC15!  You could see the pile being lifted and groomed!

The original DC01 had triple row of brushes which where spaced out in line with each row, which worked very well!

DC18

It's about time Dyson design a vacuum for the UK market!  I wonder if this new Vacuum will replace the US only DC17!

DC18!

CarmineD wrote:

Does this definition describe the u bend ?  I think not.

permanent"

not capable of being reversed or returned to the original condition

You originally said the u joint could not be removed.  That would be stationary which I (and likely all) suspect is whatg you intended to say.

sta·tion·ar·y (stsh-nr)

dusty wrote:

Also like the life time filter that last its lifetime.

dusty wrote:

Dusty,

I think we now know for sure that the DC07 is not for the mentally challenged like the "TWISTER".

Hello menschkins:

Looks like it's time to gang up on the old vacuum guy.  Let me ask you learned gents who posted:  Did you look up the definition of "permanent" in the dictionary?  Would you care to and post it here?  You're good at that Dusty.  I suspected you would have by now.  Unless it shoots down your argument?  If you do, then we can intelligently debate it's application to the u bend joint and the majority/minority views?  How's that menschkins? 

For all the dyson fans who believe the u bend air way joint is a good vacuum design and application, [I think Dusty you posted that if not Jack D, or JimB, I can't keep track of you dyson guys when you post in packs] did dyson continue to use on models after the DC14?  For example.....  Why?Why not?

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty and JackD, you know well that the thumb tab was removed and the fitting retooled to the vacuum.  Maybe you don't Dusty, because of the Canada perspective.  Maybe JackD doesn't either if he didn't know the original design and function.  He may be late to the game too.  But surely Motor does.  And of course the person who is conspicuously absent, the dyson expert.  Matt mmc AirBlade who addressed this matter long ago on the Forums.  In fact he agreed with me.

Where you be Matt mmc?  Get this pack of dyson rabid fans off me.  They know not what they speak.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

I posted the definition 3 posts up.

The u joint is a permanent part of the DC07.  Always was.  It is not permanently attached as you implied.

My guess is the u bend is either not necessary or impractical to incorporate into the design of the models after the DC14.  Unlike you I will admit that I do not know the real reason.  It is irrevelant as we were talking about the DC07 and you did not know the facts.  Maybe Dyson should have left the tab on the joint.  A 40 year vet could not remove it without the tab.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

4 year old-s could and probably did!  Then store staffs with years of experience trained by former housewives [turned dyson reps] could't replace!    That IS the truth, my HS man.  That's the reason dyson corrected the design and function flaw in the u bend air way joint on subsequent DC-07's.  And subsequently scrubbed it on all the post DC14 models.  Word, my little menschins! 

Matt mmc, AirBlade, where are you?  This rabid dyson pack hath need of thee!  Won't accept the truth from a dyson critic.  Maybe you will be more successful?

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Is That why you got rid of your dyson??????????????????

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:

Ok so a few pages of debate had me curious so I called Dyson.  The lady I talked to get a bit of a chuckle when I asked about them making this piece "not removable".  She explained that the confusion probably comes from a change made in how it comes of making it necessary to bend down and use a hand as oppossed to pressing it down with a foot.  However, it is still very removable and both the instruction manual and their phone staff use than as one of the first places to "remove" and check for a larger object you may have sucked up in error. 

So was removable and still is removable but they did apparently change how you remove it.  The current way seems pretty easy to get off and on.  I would guess boths sides of the debate by now know it is still removable, but this debate is really more about personalities than the machines.

CarmineD wrote:
I've just been shaking my head at this crazy topic of conversation.  Jack D is correct.  The original u-bend was changed because it was mistaken as a foot pedal, however it is still removable by end users.

I agree MATT, is this where dysons typically get blocked?, From my experience with serviceing them the blocks are further up at the inlet hose and brushroll area.

All vacuums clog,no manufacturer other than dyson makes the claim that theirs dont.

Yes the early model 07 had the tabs for the duct removeal,many were off by accident and brought in for service,

My advice to dyson would be to take all the different angles that the air has to move through to get to the end of the system,this would also bring the high temperatures down to where the casings would not distort so much.

MOLE

mole wrote:
The u-bend is a clogging point for only the wand.........there is no airflow through it when the brushroll is engaged.

Thanks Matt, does dyson use a built in divertor valve, for attachment use?

MOLE

Not sure on the technical name.......but yes, there is a valve that automatically diverts the airflow

Airblade wrote:

Hey Matt the scat:

Thanks.  You should remember that years ago and here too I was the FIRST person that  criticized the thumb tab on the U bend air way joint on the DC07.  Saying users stepped on it to release the dyson handle.  Then couldn't reinstall.  And w/o it, no suction in the tool mode.  Mike W. knows too [the invisible man].  Thanks MIke for your assistance here. 

It's called let's divert the criticism away from dyson which IS the problem and spin it toward Carmine D.  You know that by now.  Your band of happy rabid dysoners are experts at the game.  It makes me laugh with a heart of joy.  And solidifies my position on dysons. 

These menschkins know the thumb tab idea was a joke.  Shame on the 450 dyson engineers.  Not to mention that it violates the cardinal rule of Mr. D's autobiography that users should not have to bend over to fiddle with controls and switches.  Does that include removing/reinstalling the joint [with and without the tab press] ?

The original ubend airway joint required the user to install in many cases on the DC-07's new out of the box.  Why?  Because the poor dyson quality control let them go out off the vacuum and/or the piece came off in shipping and/or in opening and displaying.  Isn't that right Matt?  And many of the store staff didn't know how and what to do with the pieces.  That's the reason the DC07 was retooled and refitted to be permanently on the vacuum [out of the box]  unless removed by the user. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I know how easily you forget.  I hilighted in red your claim that the u-bend on the DC07 is not removable.

Pass the crow please.     

Your truths are not so true.

Your truths are not so true.

Hello HS:

I highlighted in bold italics with underlining the portion you didn't.  Included a definition of "permanent;"  [From Random House Webster's College edition]:

1. Existing perpetually; everlasting; 2.  intended to serve, function, etc for a long indefinite period.   

The current does, the old didn't.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

What coasts did you visit to find DC07's with a non removable u-bend?  You tell a new member that you had 40 years in business then became a consultant. Yet, you did not know how to remove the u-bend on your DC07.  I always suspected that as a consultant you advised against Dyson and it bit you in the a$$.  They fired you and you have bashed Dyson ever since.

You should have had your wife assist you with the Dyson since she is more savy than you.

CarmineD wrote:

HS:

I highlighted in bold with italics and underlines the part you omitted. 

Perhaps if the DC07 pink worked on my carpets and clogged, I would have had the occasion to remove the ubend joint.  But since it didn't work, I didn't have reason to remove.  The DC07 with the ubend airway is permanently removed from my home.  Soon to be permanently removed from retailers' shelves.

Carmine D.

Is Dyson going to give them credit on the dysons left sitting on the warehouse shelves or is that against the dyson rules.

Yea this makes a lot of business sense lets replace the dysons that were stuck with,with more dysons were going to be stuck with.

Now you know why the INDYS told them to take a hike.

anyone want a pallet load of dc15 $#%* that someone wants to get rid of...........

MOLE

Hey MOLE man:

Good question.  Back in 2005 when Wal*Mart scrubbed the DC07 All Floors for the HOOVER FUSION, dyson took back the WM dyson inventory.  WM insisted on cash in return, no credits.  Dyson forked it up and unloaded all the WM dysons on BEST BUY stores.  A ship load.  The BB stores are still selling them 3 plus years later with still more in warehouses stored yet to be sold.  BB was upset with dyson over this maneuver.  But went along for the ride.  A rough one.  Still.  3 plus years later.  And the DC07-s are getting kicked around at clearance prices by all retailers to unload. 

At the rate dyson is going, it will be passed 3 digits in model numbers and BB will still be selling the DC07-s.  By then they should priced at their true worth.  Buy 1 get 3 free.  And a DC16 Hand Held included free.

Carmine D.

Camine,your not sayin that dysons doing a little creative accounting are you?.You know REGINA / DYSON 2 the same........


MOLE

mole wrote:

Who knows, MOLE?  It's a very good question.  It's hard to hide a vessal load of new vacuums from smart auditors, who were the ones who noticed all the returned REGINA-s stocking up.  And one asked the question:  What are all these returned REGINA-s.  And the answer:  They are customer returns.  A little research and voila:  Double counted sales and no expenses associated with the resales.  Twice the profit, half the cost of manufacturing.  And along came the refurb law. 

I don't know how it worked.  That must have been one huge payment from dyson to WM.  No loss in sales for dyson who accounts for sales as shipment to vendor.  Why? Because all the dysons went to BB stores.  Simple bookkeeping entry by dyson.  Did BB front the do re me for all these WM dysons?  I doubt it. 

Maybe there was some financial arrangement between dyson and BB for the dyson dump.  Perhaps a delayed payment/sales on installment payments.  As the dysons sell, BB pays dyson by installments.  Hard to say MOLE.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine THE MODEL # will be the retail m.s.r.p you know the one cast in stone that if broken you will banished from the vacuum world never to be heard from again.

According to dyson wizards on this forum the dc07 was the best of the dyson breed,Oh my how are going to carry on the dyson propaganda machine when the leader of the pack has abandonded the ship.


MOLE,

Im lost but if i happen to show up before i get back keep me here.........

mole wrote:

The MSRP  is permanent on the DC07. 

CarmineD wrote:

I do not think that anyone is denying the definition of permanent. In fact I posted it earlier and you twisted around the post.  Are you still denying that that you said it could not be removed ? 

You mentioned recently that the clergy was very dear to you.  Do they teach you to lie.

The truth will set you free.

Hey MOLE:

Yes, all the talk about dyson MAP enforcement and price supports.  Supposedly to assist the indy-s against big box stores' price competition.  And the dealer only dysons.  Sure!  More like retailers' exclusives.  Remember it all very well.  Heard it enough from all the dysoners. 

The dyson crowd has short memories and forsight.  Now they won't admit they were all wrong.  And we were right.  How soon they forget!  Ask the question: What is the signature dyson?  You can't get 3 dysoners to agree.  Ask which is the greater dyson?  And they are befuddled?  Hasn't come yet.  Each new one is supposed to be the greater.  Only each new dyson is the lesser:  Less air watts, less dirt bin capacity.  More user maintenance!  Greater price!

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Strange thing is that they were not gone for long.  WM lost so many sales that they had to bring Dyson back.

 You chose to be a loser.  WM chose to get back on track.  It is not too late for you to beg forgiveness from Dyson too. 

HARDSELL wrote:
Yes i understand H.S. but how about the price?

Is the hair and dirt that sticks on the shroud and the cyclones permanent also.

I had a hair permanent once, sort of looked like a big chia pet...........

MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

Yeah.  A big wig in dyson had a close friend in WM and he begged his friend to ask WM to take dyson back in with an exclusive.  $389 DC-07 and 2 year warranty.  They are as popular as snow b-a-l-l-s in LV!  Most WM stores couldn't move them off the shelves.  Still can't.  Recenty, they were selling for $320 with give back incentives to buyers.  Still not selling.  Dyson can give a 10 year warranty now and they still won't sell at $300.  Not now.  Not with gas prices going to $7 per gallon. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Right you are Carmine,

These guys ought to run for government office. The only  job in the world where your paid a lot of money to be wrong. And a lifetime membership in the club.

MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Same as a permanent cloth bag.  Permament until removed.  Meant to be permanent and stay on to serve a purpose and last forever .  Not become removed accidently, unintentionally, and tossed because it can't get reinstalled. 

The clergy and religion are near and dear to my heart.  But this thread is about dysons. 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Right again MOLE.  Where they stand depends on where they sit! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Remember when you said that each new Hoover was greater than the previous and I disagreed.  I was the one who was right.  Each was lesser.  You said Dyson was gone and I disagreed.  I was right. 

The DC07 is the best DYSON (in my opinion).

HARDSELL wrote:

Right HS:

That's the reason you sold your DC07 after 3 years and bought a DC14 and returned it for a credit!  And now use a Royal bagged for $299 and Kirby bagged Sentria.  Makes perfect sense.   Non-sense.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

I agree with you there HARDSELL the DC07 is one of the best Dyson's and the most powerful to date...in the UK anyway!

DC18

DC18 wrote:

No doubt, DC18, for the UK.  The DC07 was made especially for rugs and carpets in the UK/Europe.  Low to mid pile.  Not for rugs in the USA.  Medium to high pile, loops and sculptured.  DC07-14 have a puny brush bar and are outperformed by any/all the big box store brand uprights on rugs.  [Which also come with manual rug height adjustments besting the dyson].  The reason in part the dyson brush bars were revamped to more USA industry standard brush rolls on subsequent models.  To make them compete better for rug cleaning with the competition in the markets where dyson exports.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Well Dusty, NAD certainly didn't agree with dyson on the claim that its filters didn't clog. 

Long before NAD disagreed, MOLE and I did too, here.  All filters clog and we said so, even dyson.  And when they do, suction decreases.  More so than the fall off in suction when bags clog.  Why?  Filters have a smaller surface area than paper bags.  Clog quicker.  Takes less dirt to clog up a filter than a paper bag.  And the consequences for permanent damage of a clogged filter to a vacuum motor trump a clogged bag easily [which requires removal and replacement of the dyson motor].  Didn't take me 450 engineers and 5127 prototypes to reach that conclusion.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You and mole told us nothing that we do not know.  Any filter that does not clog should not be there in the first place.

The DC0 filter does not clog as quickly as a bag.  I only washed mine annually.  Try using a bag more than a few times before suction drops.

CarmineD wrote:
Any bagged vacuum will have more dust clogging it in 5 minutes than a Dyson would get on it's filter in a month of use.  You are right that clogged filters burn out motors...we see a steady stream of Kenmore / Panasonic canisters in with clogged filters because the seal on the bags is so ineffective and sure enough...toasted motors.

Dusty

HAPPY 4th of July.

Today during the celebrations, food and fun, remember the men and women of our military services deployed throughout the world.  The wounded, the deceased, their friends, family and loved ones.  And our Nation, the victims of war, pray for peace in the world.

Say a pray for a man in full that his soul rest in blessed repose.  Private First Class Ross Andrew McGinnis, who would have turned 21 on June 14, Flag Day.  He was awarded the Medal of Honor, the nation's highest award for courage in battle.

On December 4, 2006, in the gunner's hatch of a Humvee driving through Bagdad, PFC McGinnis saw a granade fly through the hatch rolling to where it could have injured the four other soldiers inside.  In an easy position to save himself, McGinnis instead jumped to cover the granade with his body to shield his comrades.  The 4 men were saved. 

McGinnis joined the Army on his 17th birthday, the first day he was eligible to enlist.  A native of Knox, Pennslyvania.  He was 6 foot tall but those who knew him said he seemed alot taller.  Like many men and women in uniform, he answered the call knowing he may put in harm's way.  At the moment it mattered, Ross McGinnis honored America's finest traditions and our own better natures.  Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."   John 15:13

CarmineD wrote:

Can I just say Carmine D have you ever visited the UK?  People seem to think UK people just have very low short pile to medium pile carpet.  In the UK we have a mixture of flooring from tiled, woodern, laminate, to loop, short and medium pile carpet to very thick 'shag' pile carpet!  And many more types! On top of that we have rugs too all of verying piles heights.  Uk differs slighty to the rest of Europe in that we have a mixed of flooring in our homes.  Where as places like France, Spain, Italy you will mainly find hard flooring like tiles etc...

I've used my DC07 on a long pile carpet with no problem at all, groomed it very well!

DC18

DC18 wrote:

Hello DC18

Yes, I have.  I travelled through all the countries of Europe.  And for a time, thought seriously of starting a vacuum business there.  Thank you for asking.

No where in Europe are rugs and carpets as prevalent as they are here in the USA.  The USA households, with wall-to-wall carpeting, have matting/padding [some very high] which adds more height and depth to the carpet height.  Do you have that in the UK?   

The DC07 and 14, with their heavy rug head nozzles and no manual rug height adjustments [standard for all full size USA uprights] are hard to push and pull on many US rugs [especially with matting/padding added].  In turn, causing the typical classic dyson ratcheting noise so familiar with these models.

The dyson clutch and brush bar shut off [btw, puny dyson brush not meeting US industry standards] is meant for obstructions [in the UK].  Not to be engaged frequently during normal rug cleaning use [as it does with US med to high pile with backing].  

The combination of the puny dyson brush bar, clutch shut off, and lack of manual rug height adjustments are all the reasons that these models are not suited for many USA carpets.   

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HS:

Which Royal?  All the Dirt Devils in the big box stores have rug adjustments.  And the all metal Royals in the indy-s have rug adjustments.  Amd have since their beginnings decades ago.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You said all.  My Eminance does not have manual height adjustment.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

That's the reason it's not sold in big box stores and indy's, save a few.  And not a good example to generalize about for the rest of the US industry.

Carmine D.

BTW, HARDYSELL:

I was in the UK and Europe in the 70's, 80's and 90's.  Haven't made it back recently.  Hasn't changed that much.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

When you are caught misleading you start to twist.  It is difficult to follow what you are saying above.

You stated this as fact:

"and no manual rug height adjustments [standard for all full size USA uprights"

All full size USA uprights do not have manual height adjustments as you stated.  Is it not a good example because it proved that you do not know what you are talking about?

HS:

Headlights are standard for all full sized uprights too [and have been for years in the vacuum industry].  Dyson doesn't have one.  None.  Does that make dyson un-standard?  No, just means that dysons and the royal model you bought  do not meet the standards.  The norm for what is expecting.  Kind of like you! 

BTW, Consumer Reports is always critical of upright vacuums without manual rug height adjustments. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

So you were wrong and now want to twist the subject to headlights. No Dyson is not un-standard although you implied that it was.  Since Oreck does not have a manual height adjuster it is not the norm of what is expected. In fact, I do not think it has a means of adjusting height.  CR should be very critical of the Oreck.  Of course like you they have double standards.

The Royal has a head light.  So it is just as standart as the Oreck.

I would add the ability to turn off the brush roll as a desired standard.  Your Oreck and most Hoovers lack this feature.

ORECK is a lightweight, 8 pounds.  Not a full size.  Tho Consumer Reports rates it against full size vacuums.  And the DeLuxe and XL 21 ORECK-s have headlights unlike dysons.

BTW, stick to the thread, dysons.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You said uprights.  Oreck is an upright. 

Headlights on a vacuum are like teats on a boar hog.  Useless.

Impossible to stick to topic when dealing with you.  That is your way of saying that you have once again been proven wrong and want to twist out of the conversation.

Golf is calling.  See ya later.

HS:

I said full size uprights.  ORECK is not!

I'm too young to play golf.  Maybe when I get to be your age: Old. 

Better have that cup of joe before you go.  You'll need it!  The way you are fumbling and mumbling this morning.  Coffee will help. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I alredy had the Joe.

This is what you said:  "BTW, Consumer Reports is always critical of upright vacuums without manual rug height adjustments" 

That crow is sticking in your throad this AM.  Better have a drink to wash it down

HS:

Go back and read the first quote of mine you posted.  And have another cup!  The first didn't work.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

That was your opinion.  Then you said that CR is critical of uprights, not just full size.

And CR is critical of uprights without adjustments.  But I said that rug height adjustments are standard for full sized uprights in the USA.  Not CR.  Get the facts and sources straight.  2 cups of joe may help.

Carmine D.

Hello, Today July 5th HSN's "Today Special" is a Dyson DC07 (white on dark grey) packaged/bundled deal.  The bundled deal is - It comes with 3 extra tools and free shipping.

Question:  Are independent Dyson dealers allowed by Dyson to match this bundle and price?  If not, what can they do to respond to such a price?  Thanks.        DIB

You  could also add Riccar, Panasonic, Sharp and Aerus to the list of units without height adjustments. Pretty big names not following the "american standard".

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

Depends on how you define "big names."  These brands typically are indy stores and not big box retailers.  Do you know some big box store brands sold along side dyson that don't have [headlights] and/or manual rug height adjustments?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Your original quote was that height adjustments were standard for ALL full size USA uprights.  Now it matters where  the product is sold?  Shall we assume most high end indy product is poor because it lacks a height adjustment?    For the record, last time I checked  Panasonic was sold in box stores, Eureka have models with no height adjustment as do Kenmore.  IMO the height adjust is  useless for most people,  the majority of machines that come in for repair are almost always set to the lowest setting.

Dusty

Dusty:

I stick by my statement.  Rug height adjustments are the standard for the industry for full size uprights.  Standard meaning the norm.  The norm because the majority of full sized uprights sold in big box stores and indy-s have rug height adjustments.  Is that better wordsmithing for all the dyson menschkins?

The point that I was making before this thread got diverted is this:  The dyson DC07 and DC14 are not suited for many USA carpets.  Why?  3 simple reasons.  First, the puny brush bar.  Not the industry standard in the USA.  Second, the lack of a rug height adjustment.  Also not the industry standard.  Third, the silly clutch brush bar shut off that is designed for obstructions.  It is engaged too easily by many of the carpets in the USA, unlike the UK. 

The latter so much so, dyson has a work around for it.  Remove the permanent gaskets on the permanent dyson soleplate.  One gasket first, and if that doesn't work, then the other.  If these work arounds don't work, then you're told to return the dyson.  Why?  Because if dysons won't work on your carpets after these 2 work arounds, they just won't work.  Period.  Which gets me back to my original point.  Not made for USA carpets especially if big box store venues.  Buyers get them home.  They don't work.  They are returned.  Ops. There's another dyson refurb.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Thanks for answering my question Carmine D.   Most UK houses have carpets (although in the 90's at least woodern floors were the in thing!, carpets making a comeback!) somewhere if not allover or in most rooms.  We have what we call 'under lay' under neath the carpet which can be different thicknesses!  Some carpet come back the under lay attached to the back (usually very thin)

I wouldn't say the pivoting head on the DC07 and DC14 are heavy (in my opinion)!  The idea or function is for it to float on top of the carpet.  How I see it thinker\longer pile carpet surely let air flow easier through the carpet piles unlike shorter\low pile carpets!

DC18

dusty wrote:

BTW, the RICCAR Brilliance and Radiance, its top of the line uprights, have manual rug height adjustments.  As well as the 1800 RICCAR Premium canister and the 1700 RICCAR Simplicity canister.  Both top of the line full size canister vacuums.  6 position if I recall correctly.  Also the RICCAR 1500 Series canisters [mid size] have 6 position height adjustments.  If I recall.

None of the dysons do.  NONE.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

EUREKA and Kenmore have models with manual rug height adjustments.  The Kenmore Progressive models, both in the upright and canisters.  Also top of the line models.  The EUREKA upright Boss Smart vacuum [$150] and Optima [$60] have rug height adjustments.  No dysons have rug height adjustments.  NONE.

The Electrolux Oxygen canister [owned, operated, and made by EUREKA] has a manual rug height adjustment.  As does the Twin Clean bagless canister [also owned, operated and made by EUREKA].   Also both are top of the line canisters.  No dysons have rug height adjustments.  NONE.

It is self-evident that in the USA rug height adjustments on vacuums are the norm, the standard, the expectation.  Even if dyson doesn't have them on any of its models.  NONE.   

Carmine D.

   

dusty wrote: CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Dusty has a point with real life users…  How many folks actually dial in their height adjustments or even understand how to?  Dyson, it seems built the floating nozzle for this segment of people.  I have yet to read a review from a Dyson owner complaining of Dyson’s lack of height adjustments, besides the Oreck has no height adjustments.        DIB

ORECK is a lightweight and only 8 pounds not full size upright like dyson at 18 plus.  ORECK doesn't need a rug height adjustment and works well on all carpets save very high shag carpets. 

Dusty may have a point about rug height adjustments for carpets in Canada and UK.  Not the USA.  Not now and not in the past.  Rug height adjustments have been a staple on uprights for as long as the industry exists.  From the earliest 100 year old USA makes and models to the latest and greatest USA makes and models.  Rug adjustments and headlights have been the norm.  The standard.  The expectation.

At best dyson has 10 percent of the annual new vacuum sales in the USA.  20 million new vacuums are sold each year.  I'd say as a best guess that 75 percent of the new uprights sold every year have manual rug height adjustments.  Conservatively and consistently speaking.  That's a substantial majority.   If that were not the case, the rug height adjustments on vacuums would have gone the same route as sprayers and de-mothers.  And just as quick.

Carmine D.

Hi Vacuum people.

The on going debate about auto height adjustments VS manual carpet height adjusters,has pros and cons.

The people that argue against them have a legit reason,99% of the consumers dont know what adjustment to use on their carpet height.

The auto adjustment is o.k. FOR MOST CARPETING, For heavy pile carpets with a thick padding these machine shall i say in a nice way  REALLY STRUGGLE.

There has to be a fine balance of the brushroll,belt and type of belt, and enough suction to pull dirt and dust into the bag or bin.[Not an overkill  by suction or brush roll design],

Most companies are still finding it very difficult to find this balance,Better step up the R@D,very few vacuum companies have figured this out.

I will offer a hint for them,any machine that uses a flat type belt or V belt,or even the trick kevlar belt,and has no height adjustments will continue to be problematic on todays carpeting.

Remember that 95% of vacuum trade ins or returns are due to belt and brushroll problems..........................

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
Your statement was actually height adjustments were the standard for ALL full size uprights.  You keep forgetting the All part when you requote yourself.

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hey DC18,

You should know the above HSN DC07 white on dark grey exclusive has sold 6500 units thus far today.        DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Gee, thanks for all the information.  I am well aware that all these vacuums have height adjustments, that was never the issue at hand.  You said height adjusts were standard on ALL   full size US uprights, I gave you a few where that wasn't the case, you said that my list didn't count because they were sold by indys and asked for box store vacs...I gave those to you too.  For my trouble I get a lesson in all the vacs with height adjusts. Well, I'm game...here's a list for you.

The Eureka sweep @ groom powerhead has never had a height adjust but is probably the most commonly sold powerhead in North America

Electrolux, from the 60's to today (not the Eureka version) has never had a height adjust yet many consider the brand to be an American institution.

Tristar.  Sure lots of folks thought that air valve on the front was a height adjust but it just wasn't so.  No height adjust.  Never.

Panasonic uprights...never had a height adjust.

Eureka Maxima, no height adjust.

Oreck XL21 comes in at 11 pounds (according to Consumer Reports).  Does this count as a full size vac yet? It should for $700.  It's heavier than many Eureka and Hoover product. No height adjust but probably needs one as it rates only "good" in CR for carpet cleaning.

Riccar Vibrance line of uprights.  No height adjust....never....ever.

Eureka Air Extreme...no height adjustment

Riccar SL4.  Only 9 pounds but rates excellent for carpet cleaning in CR.  Gotta include this one...no height adjust.

Last but not least....All hoover quadraflex and windtunnel powerheads.  No height adjust.  Ever. 

Dusty

Dusty,

Carmine is famous for changing the rules to the conversation/topic of conversation as needed.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
I think he may have been a politician in his past life.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Carmine only lies when his lips are moving.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

At final count, HSN sold 10,000 units today of the above DC07 bundle.  It is probably the largest (units sold) 1 day sale of Dyson anything.

.

Carmine, according to you the WM crowd is not buying Dyson's, this HSN one day sale proves there's still a lot of life in the DC07 and there are plenty who do like and can afford them (at the right price).        DIB

mole wrote:

Thanks.  I read a Sebo patent that said it had a non-motorized auto height adjustment mechanisium.  Sebo said one of the advantages to non-motorized was that motorized was problematic due to motor failure or alike.  Have  you or anyone ever seen a Sebo non-motorized height adjustment?        DIB

Hello DIB

Thats alot of units sold on the DC07!!

By the way my Sebo Felix has a non motorised height adjustment!

DC18

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Carmine, according to you the WM crowd is not buying Dyson's, this HSN one day sale proves there's still a lot of life in the DC07 and there are plenty who do like and can afford them (at the right price).        DIB

Hey DIB:

Where's the proof?  HSN?  Sorry.  Takes more to convince me than HSN say so.  It's hype and hawk.  Makes for a good show.  Get the TV crowd lathered up to peak their demand and buy before it sells out.  Like old fashioned auctions.

Carmine D.

Hey Dusty:

You forgot one.  The halo, the most recent upright to launch in the USA.  With the UV-C light for germ extermination.  MSRP $499 but cheaper on store shelves now.  Has a manual rug height adjustment.  The standard, the norm, the expectation for all full size uprights in the USA industry.  Not on any dysons.  NONE.

With regard to the ORECK upright, its well documented here by me in discussions with MOLE that even the most expensive ORECK upright won't work well on high pile shags.  And ORECK store staff are specifically told to ask/nix the sale if customers have these carpets.  Nothing new from you, my man.  I said it first.

The majority of new uprights made and sold in the USA every year have rug height adjustments.  And headlights.  Industry standards.  Dyson doesn't.  NONE.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

I lived in a suburb of Wash DC for many years.  What can I say?  And worked in Wash DC for some years!  Lobbyist for the vacuum industry?  Who knows? 

Carmine D.

DC18 wrote:

Hello DC18:

Here's the flaw in your thinking, which in theory is great but practice is not.  It is legendary in the USA with the HOOVER Dial in the early 60's.  Also lauded for self-adjusting floating head.  But murder to push and pull over many of the carpets of the day.  HOOVER added a 3 position manual height adjustment within 1 year and the now famous automatic power drive shortly after.

The floating head 'sinks' into medium and high carpets [especially with backing and padding].  Making the dysons DC07 and DC14 hard to push and pull.  And setting off the clutch shut off on the brush bar. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Surprising no one of the dyson menschkins commented on the dyson work around and my conspicuous use of permanent.

After laughing at the suggestions and actually doing them to see if they work, I made this argument with several dyson help line techs about this work around.  Suppose like many vacuum users I have carpets with different heights and thicknesses.  If I use the work around to assist with vacuuming on one style of carpet [keep the gawdawful ratcheting noise from giving the household members anxiety attacks], rug performance then suffers on the other rugs and carpets.  Why?  The soleplate and gaskets are meant to be permanent on the dysons.  Not to be taken off and on [get it: permanent] for every change in carpet style and cleaning.  Dyson's help response:  Return the dyson to the retailer it won't work on your carpets.  Ops! There goes another dyson refurb.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

I invite you to phone the FTC and NY Times and alike and share with them how Barry Diller’s HSN are lying, I am certain they would be interested.  Then let us know how the scheme works too.        DIB

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE0DD173EF932A15753C1A961958260

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hey DIB:

I hear Barry is looking to sell HSN!  Have you?  The NEW YORK Times.  Ah yes!  Now there's an honest newsprint paper?  For bleeding heart liberals maybe!

Did I say lie?  I said showmanship Mr. DIB!  It's part of sales.  You know that by now.  Tell me something: How do they get those sales numbers to record so quickly and accurately on the TV screen when it takes many hours after the voting elections to record the tallies?  Interesting?  Maybe I'll ask Barry and he can tell me? 

Carmine D.