Vacuum Cleaners Discussions |
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Model2
~ It Beats...as it Sweeps...as it Cleans ~
Location: England
Joined: Jan 8, 2009
Points: 155
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #41 Jun 7, 2009 6:03 pm |
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Carmine, the principle "Model2" speaks about, is the method used by 'clean air' uprights such as Sebo and cylinder cleaners. I think you are mis-reading the Sebo diagram.
Basically, (and you should know this), the motor expells air from its exhaust, creating a corresponding pressure drop at the motor intake and associated ducting upstream of the motor. This includes the bag chamber.
Since nature abhors a vacuum, air rushes into the bag chamber at great speed, carrying dirt and dust as it comes. Placing a filter-bag at the entry point allows the dust to be captured, but the bag has to be permeable (that is to say, the bag must allow air to pass THROUGH the bag).
If the bag sits directly upon the pre-motor filter, there is a chance that suction will be compromised as the motor will struggle to pull air through the bag which will be filling with dirt and dust. Hence the reason for the vertical tubed pre-motor filter.
With reference to the Sebo diagram, dirt-laden air is sucked up the hose (shown at the rear of the tubular pre-motor filter), into the bag. Filtered air is then sucked towards the adjacent tubular filter, then down into the motor intake, through the (unseen) motor, then expelled to the atmosphere via the micro-filter.
Thank you, "Trilobite"; my lack of comprehension of Carmine's question was largely due to my astonishment that such an 'expert' would not familiar with a 'clean-fan' upright design principle...it's been around since the Hoover Dial-A-Matic, after all!!
This message was modified Jun 7, 2009 by Model2
~ However Clean - Hoover Cleaner ~
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Model2
~ It Beats...as it Sweeps...as it Cleans ~
Location: England
Joined: Jan 8, 2009
Points: 155
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #42 Jun 7, 2009 6:17 pm |
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Hi Model2,
I'm not as good as the rest of the guys with the image uploading thing yet but attached below is a link to the Panasonic website re the "Optiflow" thing. Actually this is nothing at all new. Bagged American vacs like Electrolux and AirWay had been employing the idea for years and years but not saying a lot about it.
Now defunct Air-Way resembled a tank-type vacuum (a long, cylindrical or rectangular in shape machine pulled around on on wheels or sliders) but was designed to stand vertically when in use. It's metal bag chamber had a cylindrical outer wall with an inner wall of perforated metal. A round filter was at the bottom of the bag chamber and it also had a round perforated cover to keep the bottom of the dispoable bag from sitting directly on it. The whole idea being meant to facilitate airflow from all sides of the dustbag.
Ye old and ancient Electrolux Model XXX by design allowed plenty of room around its permanent bag but with the change of design that came with the Model LX and the self-sealing disposable bag a bag chamber and new look were adopted. From that point on the Electrolux bag chamber was an internal rectangular single wall "cage" with perforations on all sides and at the bottom. This too intended to allow air movement from all freed up parts of the bag as it filled. It appeared to work. However, the idea was abandoned with the coming of the Model 1205. It also had a bag chamber that conformed to the shape of the rectangular bag but instead of perforated metal, it was of molded plastic with deep "ribbing" within its interior to help keep the bag walls from lying completely flush against any of its sides. There was just a single port for air exit.
In regard to either brand, another good point that never got played up was that paper bag breakage was nil.
http://www.panasonic.com/promos/video/vacuum_cleaners/optiflow.html
Venson
Hi Venson, I'm familiar with the vintage vacs, and once again, I reiterate: I did not say that good air-circulation around the bag was, in the current market or historically, unique to Sebo. I simply made the innocent remark that it was a nice feature included by Sebo's X-series machines (by and large, at least in the UK, uprights generally locate their pre-motor filter under the bag). However, I believe that the specific design of having a tube-shaped filter (more surface area than a flat filter) which stands beside the bag, almost as high as the bag itself, IS unique to Sebo - I've never seen another cleaner which uses this design. It may even be patented by Sebo.
This message was modified Jun 7, 2009 by Model2
~ However Clean - Hoover Cleaner ~
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Model2
~ It Beats...as it Sweeps...as it Cleans ~
Location: England
Joined: Jan 8, 2009
Points: 155
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #43 Jun 7, 2009 6:29 pm |
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Model2: I didn't mention direct suction dirt path and/or by-pass dirt path cleaning [as is the case with attachment cleaning]. I'm asking how a vacuum motor, SEBO or any other vacuum motor, pulls air through the bag into the motor and at the same time pulls dirt into the bag. How does that work? Explain it for me, please. The diagram you posted is the dirt/air path to the bag not the air path to the motor. Am I right? I see no filtered air pulled through the bag and going into the motor. I see air leaving the bag and going into the dirt path nozzle. Do you see that too in your diagram? You posted WRT the SEBO pulling air through the bag by the motor: Your post and the diagram appear to be contradictory. The diagram you posted shows no air pulled into the motor from the bag. Is your point that other vacuums do this [pull air through the bag into the motor], but SEBO doesn't? Carmine D. Model2: I didn't mention direct suction dirt path and/or by-pass dirt path cleaning [as is the case with attachment cleaning]. I'm asking how a vacuum motor, SEBO or any other vacuum motor, pulls air through the bag into the motor and at the same time pulls dirt into the bag. How does that work? Explain it for me, please. The diagram you posted is the dirt/air path to the bag not the air path to the motor. Am I right? I see no filtered air pulled through the bag and going into the motor. I see air leaving the bag and going into the dirt path nozzle. Do you see that too in your diagram? - Trilobite's posted a wonderful, clear explantion above of how the clean-air principle works in a vacuum cleaner. I'm sure since it comes from him, not from me, that you'll be able to understand it. I'm simply floored (no pun intended...) by your question 'I'm asking how a vacuum motor, SEBO or any other vacuum motor, pulls air through the bag into the motor and at the same time pulls dirt into the bag. How does that work? Explain it for me, please.' During your 40 years in the business, did you never wonder how the Hoover Dial-A-Matic (the first upright to popularize this design) moved dirt from the floor and in to the bag without it passing through the fan? Carmine, really...how could you NOT know this?! It's an inexcusable lapse in very basic vacuum cleaner knowledge. Your post and the diagram appear to be contradictory. The diagram you posted shows no air pulled into the motor from the bag. Is your point that other vacuums do this [pull air through the bag into the motor], but SEBO doesn't? Carmine D. - I'm sorry you haven't understood the diagram. You should write to Sebo and ask them to make it clearer - after all, if an 'industry expert with 40 years experience' can't understand it, what hope has the average consumer?!
This message was modified Jun 7, 2009 by Model2
~ However Clean - Hoover Cleaner ~
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Model2
~ It Beats...as it Sweeps...as it Cleans ~
Location: England
Joined: Jan 8, 2009
Points: 155
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #45 Jun 7, 2009 8:17 pm |
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Please forgive me for not posting the responses as to how the motor sucks air through the bag. Much too long and I think we've seen them several times already. If SEBO, and any by-pass dirt path system sucks air through the bag, how does the bag inflate? If air is sucked through [out] by the motor shouldn't the bag deflate? Carmine D. Are you for real, Carmine - this is a serious question? I'm really hoping for your own sake that this is some joke which I don't get because it's not funny... The bag inflates within the compartment because as the motor is sucking air out of the bag/bag compartment, an equal volume is rushing in (carrying the dirt with it) to take its place - it's a continuous process while the machine is running. However, the bag creates resistance to the airstream (more so as the pores clog with dirt), the air 'pushing' against the walls of the bag as it struggles through - an increase in pressure in the bag. This pressure difference causes the bag to inflate. The pressure dynamic changes constantly as the bag fills with dirt - as the pores clog, the resistance grows to the point where the motor can no longer move a sufficient amount of air through the bag to clean properly. A 'loss of suction', if you will...
This message was modified Jun 7, 2009 by Model2
~ However Clean - Hoover Cleaner ~
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Model2
~ It Beats...as it Sweeps...as it Cleans ~
Location: England
Joined: Jan 8, 2009
Points: 155
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #47 Jun 7, 2009 11:02 pm |
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Thanks Model2. You've now added something new into the SEBO dirt by-pass system mix.  You NOW say the SEBO motor is sucking air out of the bag/bag compartment. Before you said just the bag. Did the diagram change your mind? Does the motor suck the air out of the bag and/or out of the bag compartment and/or both? If it's both, tell me which air is sucked out first: The bag air and/or the bag compartment air? Or, do you believe the motor sucks out the air in both places simultaneously at the same rate? Carmine D.
Oh dear, Carmine. Writhing around again to cover up the fact you've just - very publically - blown all your "credibility" to shreds! Ka-boom! I'm embarrassed for you.
All I've done is elaborated, at your request, on my original statement (which no one else seems to have had any trouble understanding!). I've explained the concept, Trilobite's explained the concept...if you still can't grasp this very simple idea, go and do some research, rather than demanding that everyone spoon-feed you.
~ However Clean - Hoover Cleaner ~
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #48 Jun 8, 2009 6:54 am |
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Oh dear, Carmine. Writhing around again to cover up the fact you've just - very publically - blown all your "credibility" to shreds! Ka-boom! I'm embarrassed for you. All I've done is elaborated, at your request, on my original statement (which no one else seems to have had any trouble understanding!). I've explained the concept, Trilobite's explained the concept...if you still can't grasp this very simple idea, go and do some research, rather than demanding that everyone spoon-feed you.
Model2: I'm not demanding anything. I'm asking several pertinent questions based on what you posted then reposted. These are simple and straight forward. You made a statement that the clear SEBO motor doesn't have to suck air through the bag. I asked you to explain what you mean by that and how it works. You posted a nice diagram. Thank you. I asked you about the diagram's illustrations of air/dirt flow and your original statement. You reposted to say that the SEBO motor sucks air through the bag/bag compartment. Good. Progress. Then, I asked you: What does the clear SEBO motor draw air from first: The bag and/or the bag compartment, and/or both simultaneously? If both, then at what rate? Same, different? For an expert who understands by-pass dirt path vacuum operations, these questions and answers are basic to their knowledge. Do you know and/or don't you? If you do, post here. If not, say you don't know, and I will post for you.
Carmine D
This message was modified Jun 8, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #49 Jun 8, 2009 7:30 am |
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Carmine, the principle "Model2" speaks about, is the method used by 'clean air' uprights such as Sebo and cylinder cleaners. I think you are mis-reading the Sebo diagram.
Basically, (and you should know this), the motor expells air from its exhaust, creating a corresponding pressure drop at the motor intake and associated ducting upstream of the motor. This includes the bag chamber.
Since nature abhors a vacuum, air rushes into the bag chamber at great speed, carrying dirt and dust as it comes. Placing a filter-bag at the entry point allows the dust to be captured, but the bag has to be permeable (that is to say, the bag must allow air to pass THROUGH the bag).
If the bag sits directly upon the pre-motor filter, there is a chance that suction will be compromised as the motor will struggle to pull air through the bag which will be filling with dirt and dust. Hence the reason for the vertical tubed pre-motor filter.
With reference to the Sebo diagram, dirt-laden air is sucked up the hose (shown at the rear of the tubular pre-motor filter), into the bag. Filtered air is then sucked towards the adjacent tubular filter, then down into the motor intake, through the (unseen) motor, then expelled to the atmosphere via the micro-filter.
Thank you Trilobite. My basic question on the clear SEBO, and any vacuum motor, drawing/not drawing air through the bag was to ensure that we were all on the same page. Model2 is discussing dirt by-path vacuums, like the clear SEBO, and not the original vacuum design and operation using a fan first and bag last operation. I know the difference I wanted to make sure all others reading here know too. Some may/may not be versed in vacuum operations. The diagram by Model2 and posts by Venson about Lux and Air-Ways and retardturtle1 about RICCAR assist in clarifying Model2's post also. Thanks to all.
Carmine D.
This message was modified Jun 8, 2009 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Clear Sebo
Reply #50 Jun 8, 2009 8:13 am |
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The great thing about the Sebo design is that the bag doesn't cover the pre-motor filter, so the motor's not having to pull air down through the bag. The filter is at the side, so the suction stays 'stronger for longer.' When you empty the bag, it's solid like a brick, packed right to the top. When you put a new one in, it's amazing how much lighter the cleaner feels!
Just so we understand where we are now, Model2, I posted your original statement which says that the clear SEBO motor, due to the design of the side mount filter, doesn't have to pull air down through the bag. You revised this statement in a subsequent post to say that the clear SEBO motor draws air from the bag/bag compartment. I opined probably a result of the diagram you posted and I commented on. Thank you. On the surface, these two statements appear to be contradictory. I'll overlook the discrepancy and presume that you meant to say the clear SEBO motor draws clean air from both the bag and bag compartment [your revised answer]. I posted questions for you to answer about dirt by pass design and operations based on drawing air from both.
Carmine D.
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