Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Were debating whether to carry built in systems. It is not our expertise but we are being asked if we carry them. Soooo what would be your choice of ONE brand to carry if you did and what would be you "go to model" for a recommendation. We have noticed that people who come in and say they HATE their system usually have the "builders cheepo special" and the ones who like their system have the most expensive ones. Sorry this post doesn't have anything to do with Dyson? LOL

I would look at the different brands and see which power nozzles they offer to sell with the systems. They all look familiar, as we've seen them on various brands of vacuums. Look for a power nozzle that you recognize as being high quality and reliable. You'll probably recognize it when you see it. Personally, I like the Cen-Tec units with the height adjustment and geared belts. The Quiet Drive types are great. The "Stealth" nozzles from MD Systems are good too, but they'll be a bit pricey because they're made by Rotafil in Italy. I'm not familiar with the DrainVac brand, but I've noticed that they do sell Sebo power nozzles with their systems. I have one of those nozzles on my Felix upright. It's indestructible. As for the the different brands of motor/tank assembly, they're all pretty similar. Most of the brands offer bagged/bagless, and sophisticated electronics to monitor the bag and filter. 

Sometimes, I wonder if the ones who "hate their systems" do so because the tools that came with the unit are inadequate. I've house-shopping lately. I'm looking at homes much larger than what I've owned before. I've seen several homes that had really powerful systems from Beam, Vacuum Maid, SilentMaster. These houses all had the added expense of Hide-A-Hose installed, so I assumed that the builder went to alot of extra expense. What was disappointing was that not one of these home builders had a power nozzle as part of the tool package. In fact, all of these that I saw were straight suction units, and these were homes with extensive carpeting. On top of that, my Mother in Law moved earlier this year into a 5000 sq. ft. home that had the most ancient looking Nutone system in the garage. No hose or tools were to be found. After I determined that the unit had adequate suction (for its age, mind you), I went to Lowe's for a 25' pool hose. I then went to a vac shop and bought about 25 old Elux power nozzle cord straps for the hose, a Nutone hose fitting for the wall outlet, a six foot long pigtail cord (as used for older central systems), and a salvaged late model Kenmore PowerMate nozzle with hose and wands. When I was finished, my end result was a poor man's version of an electrified central vac hose with a Cen-Tec power nozzle. It looks straight out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab, but it works perfectly and has more than enough suction. I had to something because her whole house is full of that "frisee" carpeting, and it was tearing up her Dyson DC 07.

Lucky1 wrote:

I'll bet that it will eventually get compared to Dyson.

Speaking of which -- is there any particular reason  that power nozzles and/or power nozzles with attachment sets for central vacuums should end up costing as much a complete vacuum cleaner?  I seen price tags past the $400 mark.

Not meaning to digress . . .  if I were living in a space where a central vacuum would prove practical I'd be eager to learn about a wet/dry system like Aqua-Air.  https://www.centralvacuumstores.com/pdfs/cvs/viewpdf.php?pdf=AquaAir

The idea of an all-in-one system is attactive to me as it may mean less to have dig out of the closet for all around cleaning.  Although it strikes me as a real move toward progess, I do not know how complicated, problematic or expensive it would be to also provide individual water supplies for each of the suction ports placed throughout the average house.  Central vacs designed for dry pick up only also do have optional tanks that can be used for wet pick up. 

Venson

If I had a large enough home to warrant a central vacuum setup (3000sf+ IMO), VacuFlo would be my one and only choice.  Has no filters and requires an external vent but doesn't lose suction like most.  That right there would make it very worthwhile.  You could say the VacuFlo is the Dyson of central vacs.  

If money were no object I would definitely go with a self-flushing wet-dry system.  I saw the DrainVac (linked here) ages ago at a home builder's show, and they were quite impressive.  I've heard they're great machines, and like the VacuFlo do not lose suction, but they're quite expensive as I have heard.  To me, however, that would be a small price to pay for not having to see or touch the dirt, ever.  Plus I've looked and the dealers seem to be limited, so you would be one more on the map.

As for power nozzles, either Hayden/Cen-Tec, geared belt version, or Lindhaus/Stealth.  Cen-Tec uses a time-tested design that has proved to be very durable and long-lasting (just look at any Kenmore power nozzle).   The performance on the Stealth is incredible, the power nozzle is literally self-propelled and the brush really digs into the carpet.  There's my 2 cents, but perhaps some of the central vac experts would like to chime in here. 

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Uh oh!!!!

Hello Lucky1:

A little dated, but in July 2004 Consumer Reports rated and ranked Central Vacuums.  10 in all from $500 (Air Vac BV2000KIT) to $1245 (MD Silent MasterS2 104SM). 

Beam (Serenity Plus 2775 with Imperial Power Team Classic 775) for $880 was best for 6000 sq ft/more along with Nutone Quiet Series CV750 with CK 350 and EUREKA the BOSS Plus CV1801 with CV205G (EUREKA rated a CR Best Buy).

The Air Vac for $500 was rated a Best Buy for homes up to 2400 sq ft.

If you want a copy and can't find it, let me know.  I'll be happy to send to you.  I suspect CR will be updating its CVS-s again soon.  At least, I hope so.

Carmine D.

As a former owner of a Eureka built-in and a current seller of Eureka built-ins I'd suggest buying a Beam.  Actually I'd suggest buying a Nilfisk but I don't believe they sell them in the US as of yet.  Vacuflo is a nice choice if you can vent the machine outside but you'll want to make sure your neighbors are not in close proximity otherwise you'll be spewing dust clouds onto their house. Hose and powerheads are as important a consideration as the machine itself, perhaps more so as those are the pieces that you are using all the time.  Swivel hoses are a must, 3 way switching not as much but is a nice convenience.  I have a preference to the Wessell Werk powerhead (it's what I use) as I find it far more manuverable than the Centec / Kenmore heads.  One thing I have noticed with the Centec heads is a tendancy for brushroll meltdown due to the amount of hair and threads that get wrapped into the end bearings.

Dusty

Best bang for the buck in central systems is NUTONE, The priceing is realistic and the supply and back up is great.

Bagged ,bagless,systems that will handle up to 20,000 sq ft.

Been in business for ever, [they even have a built in utility valve], The attachments they offer are cen-tec, not bad but better out there.

Hey Lucky, its about time your thinking about coming out of the stone age,and into the 21st century,central vacuums have been around since the early1930's

MOLE

Motorhead wrote:

Did you know that the drain vac is illegal to install in most states,check it out with the building inspector and look at the codes............

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hi Mole,

Is there any particular reason why?

Venson

mole wrote:

It’s illegal in Canada too but I believe it varies from district to district.  Biggest problem is you’re dumping carpet fibre and solids directly into your cities sewer system which goes against most bylaws. I know the guys who clean carpets with truck mount units have to dump their water at special facilities where solids can be screened out before hitting the sewers.

 

Dusty

Thanks Dusty.  I was wondering what the real deal on this was.  We have or had a ban on garbage disposers in New York City.  Why?  Because the unions were afraid that sanitation workers might be put out of work.

Venson

mole wrote:
I wasn't aware of that, no mention is made of that on the US DrainVac dealer websites either.   Makes me wonder what the intentions are, $#%* is theoretically OK for the sewer system (not to mention all of the chemicals dumped in there from various sources) but carpet fibers aren't?!  Ridiculous to say the least. 

And what about the people that regularly dump their Rainbows and carpet extractor recovery tanks down the toilet? 

Ordinances can't (and won't) control everything...

-MH

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

I heard about the garbage disposer ban there a while back (didn't it take effect around 1997 or so?), but I also heard recently that it was supposedly lifted and now they are allowed back in the state?  Can anyone else from the area confirm this?

-MH

In my opinion, M.D., Cyclovac, or Vacuflo.  Cyclovac makes various other brands like Riccar/Simplicity, Star Power, and a few others.  I personally have the largest of the Riccar units and love it, by far one of the best units on the market.

Lucky1 wrote:

Lucky,

LOL?  When I tell folks I participate on a vacuum cleaner forum, most laugh.  When I tell them of Dyson and how his inventions made him one of England’s richest men, they stop laughing.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
I guess I mistakenly gave you more credit than you deserved or you are just feigning Innocence in not knowing that your constant debating of Dyson keeps it in the forefront of this forum. Don't I feel like a fool thinking all along YOU were in control of this board and baiting everyone to your Dyson agenda. I hope you really do know what you are doing, I would have more respect...even the hijacking of this thread I thought was pretty cool. You can reply and keep your product alive for another post but I'm done.

I'm very apreciative for the other posts and welcome more suggestions or details!
Thanks
Lucky

Lucky1,

Please understand that DIB is sold hook line and sinker on James and his inventions,He has looked up to J.D, as some sort of prophet here to save the world from ordinary or conventional vacuum cleaners.

Im sure if dyson made a central vacuum system,his post would of been different.

By all means you being one of us,dont abandon the forum ,were here to help you make it .Sure it can get real nasty but these guys are very passionate about the realitys and falseitys of this business.

This is the best vacuum site in the country and the world....................

MOLE

Motorhead wrote:

Hi MH,

I don't mean to divert the thread but as we're on the subject -- following is an old article about the drop of the ban on disposers.  http://cooperator.com/articles/191/1/Garbage-Disposers/Page1.html

By the way whatever happened to the trash compactor?

Venson

Mole and Lucky,

You two have in the past, openly discussed and celebrated how to nail Dyson’s to the floor and this was my real motivation and not so much Lucky’s small Dyson dig/bait.  I simply took Lucky’s dig/bait and responded to this (highlighted only) with a short 2-3 sentence reply and you all act surprised?          DIB

 

P.S.  Lucky, I liked your question/thread and learned from the responses.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

What does that have to do now with this thread on CVS, a specialty vacuum venue clearly absent with your brand? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

How in the hell did you get in on this dance so cheap?  You have nose trouble.       DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

If you can and have read the thread, you'll note I posted a relevant response, unlike you.  So I earned a place on this thread and deserve to be here.

Obvious to most here on this thread, your motive now is to lock it because you/your brand have nothing of value and relevance to contribute.  Good luck, my friend.  You can dance this one solo. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Like I said, you have nose trouble.        DIB

Actually considering its age and the number of times my ring opponents hit it, my nose works very well. Thank you for your concern.  

I have a nose for the truth.  And my nose knows the truth about you DIB.  Lucky1 says that your MO (is it a paying job?) is to keep your fave brand on the google search page front and center!  He nailed you.  He's right on the money! 

He gotcha, my friend!  All your future dances will be alone. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Your MO is to bash Dyson regardless of the thread topic.  I can't think of a single brand that you have not compared to Dyson.

I suppose that is only natural since Dyson is the standard for others to follow (copy).

Since, as I mentioned, it's not my expertise, I will have to look for an Installer.

Are there any really important question I need to ask them, other than references?

Any Brands that you would definitely avoid?

Do all Budd vacs have a smaller dimension hose? Any others.

Any insite is greatly appreciated. Please forgive my ignorance. I only had a Mentor for a short time and nothing on CVS (it is hard to learn on your own).

Thanks

Hello Lucky1:

The CVS installers will be of two types and/or a combination of both:  First, the CVS that are put in during the home construction and their pricing structure.  Second, the CVS that are put in after the homes are built and their pricing structure.  The latter are more time consuming and more expensive to install.  You may get a CVS installer[s] who give[s] you an average rate for all CVS installations regardless of whether its pre/post home completion.  Probably, the more CVS units you have for installations, the better the install rate per unit.

Carmine D.

Hi Lucky1,
When finding a good installer, you need to know the following,do they liability insurance,or do you , A good installer can do 1 or 2 full installs [existing construction] a day. When the jobs are within a reasonable distance from each other. Most installers work direct with the customer and charge per valve material and labor,Lets say new construction 125 to 150 per valve this price should include going back and finishing the job to completion, The installer will go and spike the job[rough in] after the plumbing and electricians are done roughing their part,the installer will go back before the drywallers get there to finish his job.

As far as pricing the jobs you can quote pricing for new or existing construction, you can pay the installer per valve,either your material or his material plus his price to you per valve.A good installer will go to look at the job first to see what hes up against and give an honest quote[sometimes less sometimes more] if you do it this way you should never take a bath on any job,

Supervalves or electra valves have to be wired by an electrician,installers are not suppose to wire these valves,but on the other hand the customer can come in and buy the supervalves from you,after that you have no clue who's installing these.

You are more than capable to do your own service calls and repairs,why give the money to the installers ,unless of course you have set up something different in advance.

This market is all to itself and when the customer wants it its just up to you to sell it,I will tell you that the pricing is very competetive,and you have to find that little edge,,,,,,

GOOD LUCK,

And welcome to the club.......

MOLE

mole wrote:

Lucky1:

MOLE is right and certainly something to consider.  Some existing vacuum store owners and/or operators do their own CVS sales and installs, like MOLE.  Ideally, partnering with an existing store owner/operator on CVS sales referrals/installs is one way to start out.  Then as you acquire more knowledge and CVS business, you can venture out on your own. 

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

Yes we do it all in house,from do it yourself kits to complete installations,our 2 installers have been with us a long time, both great installers ,they do both new and existing construction,

I still like doing my own service calls,just to keep busy,talking with the customers,getting hot leads,etc,ect,

Now im selling machines to their kids,man i'm getting old,its so easy it's not like work anymore it's just playtime..........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Wait until you start selling to the 3rd and 4th generations, God willing!

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

I'm no exert here but what Dyson looks like to me is markettng.

With as much money as they invest into ads, brochures, and design I find it quite easy to believe vacuum cleaner salesmen when they tell me that Dyson is not the way to go.

Tech

techphet wrote:

Oreck is marketing.  Dyson is performance.  I am sure that a lot of the Dyson price is due to advertising.  Most of the Oreck price is the freebies that come with the vacuum.

I imagine that the salesmen telling you it is not the way to go do not sell them.  I have yet to have a salesman tell me that it is not the way to go ( if they are available in the store).

Have you tried one.

HARDSELL wrote:

ORECK and dyson do not offer CVS models.  ORECK never has in the USA after 45 plus years.  Dyson probably never will as a vacuum industry newcomer in the USA, IMHO. 

BTW Lucky1, if you didn't already know, the VDTA has a group called the Central Vacuum Advisory Council with a link on its Web Site devoted to the issue of CVS with a monthly publication:

http://www.vdta.com/Magazines/JUL08/cv-toc-jul08.html  

I believe the CVS Council has been in existence for about 8 years while the VDTA is over 25 years old.  The Council was originally tasked to bring some of the Canadian enthusiasm for CVS to the USA.  You'll probably have to be a member to access some of the news and articles, but it may be worth the cost.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

No sheet.  This was started by one of your comments.

Not my kill.  Lucky1 started this thread on CVS.  Very interesting too.  I have to install a CVS in my daughter and son-in-law's home [over 3000sq ft].  This thread was very topical and timely.  Haven't gotten to it yet.  Probably in the fall after this hot weather is behind us in LV.  Looking forward to it now!  Unit will be in the garage.  Should be a snap since all the piping, outlets and kitchen sweep are in already.  Haven't found a local dealer yet who sells CVS.  And I did not want to buy off the internet if I can find a local dealer.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Out of curiosity, have CV's caught on much more in the US?  I've always found it amazing that the demand wasn't as high as it was in Canada.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

A little more in recent years in pockets of the US.  But, by and large, CV are for the most part the best kept secret in the US vacuum industry in the last 50 years. 

In the Del Webb Pulte retirement communities [55 and up] in Florida CVS is a standard feature on all the new houses with several models to chose from.  Here in Vegas, at the same Del Webb Pulte retirement communities, asking for a CVS gets a pause of silence and then directions to the nearesr drug store.

Carmine D.

Dusty as I mentioned earlier that most builders opt for the cheap specials to put in new homes and customers that have these don't really like them. They now come in to buy vacuums instead. Things like vacpans and hide a hose are starting to pique curiosity in them again.

Lucky1 wrote:

Hi Lucky1, as a general rule of thumb,when quoting jobs, Always ask what the square footage of the dwelling is.

Take the Sq footage and divide by 700 this will tell you how many valves you will need give or take a half of valve.

Then you can reccomened a system and attachment kit that they will be happy with.

ITS better to overpower than to underpower the system.

Hope this helps

MOLE

If you could carry one brand of central vacuum I think it should be MD. They are the most dealer-centric brand, I think.

There are so may central vacuums to choose from, like mole was saying when you get a customers square footage you should double it. So if their home is 3,500 sq. ft. suggest a vacuum that can do up to 5,000 - 7,000 sq. ft., this will maximize the suction. When the customer is using the inlet furthest away from the unit, you do not want them to have a loss of suction. There are really some good brands out there and everyone has their preference. I personally like the Valet machines made by Lindsay. Lindsay Mfg. also makes AstroVac, Imperium, Vacu-Maid and others. The Beam unit is a great unit, and the company really supports local dealers, but their prices are pretty high. I would stay away from Nutone. In my opionion their units are crap, just not the same units from 15 years ago.