Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Has anyone seen this yet?  It just hit the shelves a couple of weeks ago at Wal-Mart (not even on the Hoover or WM website at this point), I picked one up around that time after speaking to Tom G. (who was the first one to tell me about it) but had neglected to post about it on here until now.  I finished posting a review in the Reviews section, needless to say I am very impressed with the machine now that I have been using it for a couple of weeks and highly encourage everyone to at least head to Wal-Mart and check it out. 

For those of you who haven't seen it, TTI/Hoover has finally jumped on the multi-cyclone bandwagon after experimenting with dual-cyclone for a couple of years with the Mach series, and only recently getting *that* right with a redesigned shroud for the Mach 3.  This Whisper is completely different, it's a copy of a Root Cyclone Dyson and a damn good one at that.  At $120 I am blown away by the type of machine it is, very substantial and not cheap-feeling by any means.  It's a completely new design, and appears to contain elements of the Mach series, the failed "One" cleaner in the UK, and, oddly enough, the LG/Kenmore Premalite.  At first glance it appears to be a dual-cyclone machine, until you either look at the side of the box or separate the two halves of the cyclone assembly.  Indeed, there are 6 high-efficiency cyclones hidden above the bin, and they look just like a Dyson's.  You will also notice the cyclonic "arrows" on the Hoover logo in front, for added emphasis

Carpet performance is good, it handles very nicely (positive weight) and the double-chevron brushroll helps pull the machine along; the bristles are soft but still effective.  What sets it apart from the Dyson though is above-floor cleaning convenience.  You push a button and the handle wand releases, you do not even have to let go of the handle; you're using the SAME ergonomic handle you just vacuumed the carpet with.  The wand is long as well, and does not need to be inverted for use.  There are only 2 attachments, and the wand isn't adjustable, but the brush/upholstery tool is, I presume to reach tight spaces.  I suppose if worse comes to worse other standard 1 1/4" attachments could work, it appears to be the same though I have not tried it.  I'll check that out further and post the findings.  The motor is soft-starting (like the Hoover Z), and the brushroll (driven by a separate motor) automatically starts and stops when the handle is lowered or raised, if the brushroll switch is on.  There are also 2 indicator lights showing when the brushroll is on, and when the suction is blocked.

This machine is basically a Dyson DC07 or DC14...at a third of the price.  Being a Dyson fan I hate to say it, but Dyson may be facing some competition with this machine as far as regular uprights are concerned, once it is more widely available and more people find out about it.  It's no match for the DC17 in terms of performance, obviously, but I can't see any reason why the 7 or 14 would be more desirable, as strange as that sounds.  If it was inexpensive and worked well but cheaply made, then it's obvious the Dyson would be the clear winner (as it usually is), but that's the thing...this machine does not seem to be cheaply made at all.  Definitely no WindTunnel here and I can't see why it wouldn't last a reasonable length of time.   On the other hand, while possibly not-so-good news for Dyson this could be some positive news for Hoover, perhaps the first of many machines to come?  It will be interesting to see what the future holds.

-MH

I discovered just now, on another discussion forum, someone who I presume is TomG, discussing the machine's merits.

Search "Hoover Whisper" and ye will possibly find...

Thanks for info Motor and a good review, save the mention of the 'failed HOOVER Z'.  Like the comparisons to dyson.  Very detailed and informative.  Will serve HOOVER sales well.

W*M here doesn't have it yet.  I thought perhaps for the 4th July but haven't arrived yet I'm told.  Excellent price too in a bad economy which is predicted for months and maybe years out.  Especially for a WM sales venue.

HOOVER has the 'hush" mode on the EmPower going back to 2004 and still.  Consumers love it.  The article you quoted from Better Homes and Gardens praised the EmPower with its hush mode feature.  4 Years after the fact.  Better late than never. 

Not surprised to see the "hush" mode emerge in a ramped up new HOOVER TTI bagless.  The EmPower for $80 is still a popular seller among all the W*M competitor big box retailers.  Nice to see the feature now available in a W*M HOOVER TTI model. 

By the way, have you checked out all the HOOVER 100th Anniversary models.  3 uprights and a canister.  Nothing new but certainly collector interest for you and Tom G.  Been out since mid June 2008 to commemorate the HOOVER Century Anniversary.  I figured TTI would do something for the big HOOVER Century mark.  Didn't expect a line of models.  Upright bagged, bagless and both.  And a cann.  Pass the info along to Tom G if he doesn't know already.  He'll be pleasantly surprised to know TTI and HOOVER are doing just fine. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Okay, so you're switching back to supporting the Hoover brand now?

Motorhead,

I appreciate the review.  I must say it is hard to watch a man (Dyson) work so hard, spend huge sums on engineering, spend huge somes on advertising and much time educating the public, then only not to protect himself with some additional patents that could of/should of prevented Hoover, Bissell, Vax, Dirt Devil from having Dyson like technologies.  I would have thought James would protect these assets with vigor by securing additional patents.  James’ vacuum future will be one of competing against his own technologies in the market place.  Watching his clear bin copied by much of the industry must have been hard.  Watching his cyclone and bin reconfigured must be even harder, harder because it could or should of been prevented.  Samsung has 4 to 5 multi-cyclonic patents pending, but will most likely use only one of the designs in a future product and use the other 3-4 patents as insurance by keeping others locked out of these designs.  Perhaps this is a downside to James having so many young and inexperienced (to the worlds ways) engineers and/or patent attorneys.      DIB

M00seUK wrote:

No M00seUK, never switched.  But you made me laugh. 

I'm a vacuum man.  Bagged, not bagless, except for specialty models. 

HOOVER and ORECK have the names and reputations in the vacuum industry in the USA.  Just giving credit where credit is overdue.  HOOVER is the premier carpet cleaner and groomer.  That hasn't changed in 100 years in the USA.  ORECK, coming on the half century mark, is a worthy, but very distant, second.  IMHO.

Carmine D. 

DIB:

I mentioned before that the patent thinking and laws are a changin in the USA.  The discussion was in regards to drugs.  But same applies across the board.  Can't make marginal product changes at the time of expiration and extend the patents forever.  Like the good old days. 

Isn't it Tom G that always says in the vacuum industry no one remembers who did it first but the one who copies the best and sells it for less.  If I recall correctly.  Or was it Motor?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Extending his patents serves no use here.  Writing entirely new patents that would lock out clustering cyclones above the bin is both legal and prudent.  There is very little room on an upright to place 5 or more high efficient cyclones cleanly and now others have them.  TTI and Bissell did not put the money or work in! - James did!  He will be competing against himself because he left the patent doors wide open.

Unfortunately it is probably true, consumers do not care who stole, copied or reversed engineered from who.  Bill Gates was proven to be a predatory monopoly and do the majority of people care?  No.        DIB

This HOOVER first caught my eye last week, when I was at Walmart.  

If you want to know what it looks like, go to  the link below. Walmart's website does not have it up yet.

http://www.vax.co.uk/shop/upright-vacuum-cleaners/Vax-VZL-501-Turboforce_Zero-vacuum-cleaner

Two key features that could be deceptive 

* Non-stop suction

How many vacuums actually stop sucking as opposed to just a substantial decrease in suction. If Dyson made this claim the red flag would already be dropped on them.

* Washable lifetime HEPA filter - no replacement filters to buy

Are replacement available.  If so this must not be a lifetime filter. Again Dyson has been criticized severely on the forum fot this claim.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

I agree completely with what you said here.  Being a Dyson fan this is bittersweet; I'm glad that cyclonic bagless is slowly becoming more mainstream (and will continue to be) for everyone to use and that TTI/Hoover did it RIGHT this time around, but at the same time it is painful to watch Dyson potentially become another "me too" company; the one feature that stood out for the longest time is starting to become incorporated into other manufacturers' machines.  However, Dyson has many innovative designs besides cyclonic separation (the Ball design for one, and the DDM), and knowing Dyson they learn from their mistakes quickly, so I'm sure they will continue to innovate and secure future patents so this will not be the case the next time around.  Not to mention that Dyson will continue to be highly respected among enthusiasts as the FIRST with this technology, even if it now isn't the only one.

-MH

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi HS,

Since Dyson now isn't the only one that never clogs or doesn't lose suction (TTI and Bissell have been using these statements as well), not to mention the filters, greedy competitors such as Oreck will not have much footing for a dispute in the future.  That, and the idea that other manufacturers (both low and high-end) will not want to hold out with outdated technology much longer and keep losing more and more sales, will eventually lead to more companies jumping on the cyclonic bandwagon one by one and adding at least one bagless model to their lineup.  Even Oreck, with its direct-air version, complete with 30 MPH high-efficiency cyclone...

Motorhead wrote:

Hello MH,

The link that Mike provided only says ' non-stop suction ' .  To me this is not the same as no loss of suction.  Unless a vacuum is clogged it should produce suction regardless how full the bag or bin.  Suction will, however, decrease with a bagged or most bagless as they fill.  I think the key word is STOP.

Is the life time filter a pleated one?

Hey there gents:

I use to think the same: "Non-stop suction" and "Constant suction" were cop outs by the vacuum makers because they could point to residual suction even if considerably weak.  Not anymore.  

When used in conjunction with a brand name and model these claims carry the same strictness in suction meaning as:  No loss of suction.   In a dispute, the FTC will hold the vacuum maker[s] to a higher standard on these claims and side with the buying public.  Not the lower standard by siding with the vacuum maker[s].  The NAD ruling against dyson set a precedent.  It raises the bar for companies who make such claims.  ORECK is trying to raise it even higher for vacuum maker[s].  ORECK has nothing to lose.  It's claim is: Simply amazing.  Can't use a suction gauge to measure that claim in numbers.

Curious to hear what Dusty the word smith expert says.

Carmine D.   

 

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi HS,

I understand what you're saying now.  And yes I wonder what the reason was behind the word choice...

The "lifetime" filter is a pleated rectangular filter, curved to fit in the housing.  It is accessed through a removable cover on the lower front housing (which IMO is a bit flimsy and made from the same metallic-colored plastic as you see on cheap toys).  Since the filter can be removed I wonder if it isn't in fact intended to be replaced if worse came to worse, in the event of horrible pet smells and such.  Bet we'll see replacements available in the near future, after this machine becomes more widely available (and more have been sold). 

-MH

CarmineD wrote:

Hey Carmine,

I have never seen NAD rule against Dyson’s “No Clogging” and/or “No Loss of Suction”, nor have I seen it covered in the news (newsworthy stuff IMO).  How did you come about such information?        DIB 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Same place as usual.  The Fairy Tale Book.

CarmineD wrote:
Are you refering to Orecks "simply amazing" claim or Hoovers "non-stop suction" claim?

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Sorry guys.  Relax.  Settle down.  Take a chill pill.  My bad.  [Before posting here, I was reading the NAB, and must have had it still on my mind.  Happens when you reach my age: OLD.]

Meant to say ASA ruling against dyson.  Of particular note is that the ASA is a UK ruling authority, which BTW is dyson's country of origin.  Pretty bad when your own shoot you down dead in the water on a gray area matter: advertising claims typically passed off as sales puffing.   Maybe no more? 

My point is this: The powers that be here in the USA will be looking at advertising claims and holding the makers feet to the fire on these advertised statements.  No passes.  Benefit of the doubt will go to the consumers not the vacuum makers.

I'm waiting for the "lifetime" claim on filters and belts to get challenged.  And it will!  MOLE is right on the money on this farce.  May I add too, just as he was right on the money over 3 years ago when he said dyson's farcical claim: Never clogs, never loses suction is laughable.  He was right over 3 years ago and still! 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hey Dusty Man:

I'm referring to all suction claims specifically made by vacuum cleaner brands. 

Do they have to meet minimum advertising standards or maximum advertising standards? 

Do 'Non-stop suction"; "No loss of suction"; and "Constant suction" all get held to the same high standard and meaning in the printed word.  So vacuum brand makers can't cop out when called on the carpet by each other/consumers who rely on the claims?  Will the US ruling authorities err on the side of the consumers, and not the vacuum makers?  By no longer giving the vacuum makers a pass [when suction diminishes].  Will the ruling decisions lower the bar on these vacuum suction claims?  Or slowly start to raise it and hold vacuum makers accountable for their written claims?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Manufacturers will always stretch the truths about their products, it makes for good television.  If complaints arise people like NAD and ASA are there to handle the situation and to that I say more power to them.  I have more respect for Dyson (and Hoover for that matter)  who abide by the decision rather than Halo who paid no attention to it and now have to do battle with the FTC.  As a vacuum guy I found the arguments Dyson put forth to ASA in defense of their commercial made perfect sense, but then I know the product and I know the competition.  For the average consumer I see where the problems arise.  Exagerating claims is nothing new in any industry (look at the false milage being touted by Hybrid cars) and I'm sure it will continue on.  Let the watchdog agencies in charge take care of the false claims and things will work themselves out in the end.

On Dysons "no loss of suction" claim, that is still used in all their advertising.  As I understand it, ASA had no problem with that part of the slogan and accepted the testing that was done to prove the point.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hey Dust Man:

Well said.  I note the major big box retailers don't use the claim: Never loses suction" in their ads for dysons.  I suspect the reason you cited [ASA gave it a pass] is the reason ORECK is pursuing legal action.  Possibly, the reason retailers are silent on the claim in print. Pending legal action. 

In a court of law, judges, juries and lawyers impute more weight to the exact meanings and reliance on the advertised words and claims. 

The problem with the old dyson claim: "Never Clogs" is that many dyson buyers relied on this false claim as the sole justification to pay $500 plus for purchase.  When users learned their dysons did clog they returned them to the retailers and squawked!  Hence the ASA action.  That's the crux of the dyson matter.  That too can weigh in on the reason retailers don't use the dyson claim: Never loses suction.  How does the saying go:  Never say never?  Ops there goes another dyson refurb.

Dyson is going down for the count on this claim too.  Dyson will join the infamous ranks of makers like halo who overstate their product claims.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Dyson has always contended that if the owner will follow the printed directions, the filters will not clog and the machine will not lose suction.  If you follow the printed directions on an Oreck, Hoover, or Eureka with a bag, by the time the dust reaches the full bag mark, the machine will have lost a significant amount of power and the bag will have clogged.  What I'm saying, very simply, is that if the customer follows the directions the Dyson will have 100% suction, 100% of the time.  Now, with other multi-cyclone vacuums on the market (like the Hoover, Dirt Devil Spinnergy, Bissell HealthyHome, Infinity, etc.), if the customer follows the directions, those machines will not lose suction or clog either.  For your information, the Infinity claims right on the vacuum cleaner "Never Loses Suction" and "Lifetime Clean Air".  The Hoover Whisper claims, right on the box, "Non-Stop Suction".  The Dirt Devil Spinnergy claims, right on the box, "Multiple Cyclones Separate Particles at a Higher Velocity Creating Guaranteed Sustained Suction For Every Room You Clean".  The Dirt Devil Spinnergy box also goes on to say "Multi-Stage Cyclonic Technology Prevents Clogging of Filter". 

The fact is, they have ALL jumped on the Dyson bandwagon.  Dyson is not the only one to make that claim anymore, therefore, it will be harder to dispute in the future.  As all vacuum manufacturers begin to use Dyson's technology, it will in fact be the only thing that exists.  Bags will be as obsolete as you are, and their days are just as numbered

-MH

Hey Motor Man:

That's the reason these suction claims are going to get scrutinized closely in the future.  Just as the ASA did with the dyson claim.

Again, disagree.  Do you see a pattern here?  Bagged vacuums are still here after 6 years of dysons.  And will be here long after dyson is gone.  Bagless is a fad and fading fast, especially for high prices paid in the past on dysons.  HOOVER Whispertone: $120.  HEALTHY HOME $250.  Dyson $500.  Dah!  Sayonora on the old steel guitar.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
If bagless is a fad it's interesting then that if you check the Hoover, Dirt Devil, and Eureka websites you will find that there are 65 (give or take a few) bagless uprights available versus only 19 (once again, give or take) bagged models.  The cheapest units?  Bagged.  The most heavily promoted?  Bagless.  Our rep from one of these companies explains to us that the box stores don't want to deal with the hassle of bags, they just want to move product.  Bagless is their choice and that's good because the end result is that people are either sick of cheap bagless vacs and step up to a Dyson or they're sick of bagless all together and step up to a Riccar or Sebo or other high end product.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty,

The once backyard inventor influences an entire industry and retail too, incredible!  It was interesting hearing you tell how Dyson’s premium priced vacuums helped customers get accustomed and/or except the idea of paying more for technology and/or quality, which helps sell other premium brands too.  I love the Dyson story and it’s far reaching impact.        DIB

Hey Dust Man:

You make a point worth debate.  Let me rephrase.  Big box stores don't want the hassle of carrying bags for bagged vacuums so prefer bagless vacuums.  [Tho these same stores' carry an aisle full of bagless filters].  Why? 

Obviously, the vacuum manufacturers you sited, HOOVER, DIRT DEVIL, EUREKA, and dyson use the big box stores as their major sales venue for their vacuums.  So what do they do?  They produce bagless vacuums for the big box stores.  Look at that sales venue:  Big box stores are synonymous with disposables.  Cheap.  Undiscerning vacuum buyers are getting bagless vacuums forced on them by the big box stores and the vacuum makers that cater to them.  But for how long?  You can fool all the people, some of the time.  You can fool some of the people all of the time.  But you can't fool all the people all of the time.

BTW, the best selling vacuum at BEST BUY stores is the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum bagged upright for $149.  Never on sale.  Rarely advertised.  Has been numero uno for sales for years, before and after dyson launch.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hey Dust Man:

Another good point worth debate.  My take:  Dyson sales were brisk in the UK and USA because bagless vacuum buyers [read big box store shoppers] bought into the dyson myth: Never Clogs and they were willing to plunk down $500.  Fast forward 15 years in the UK and 6 plus years in the USA and dyson has a history and a track record.  Refurbs galore and a drubbing by the ASA dispelling the dyson myth.  Result:  Vacuum consumers avoid the big box retail stores and seek out better bagged vacuums at the indy-s. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I personally don't see a big return to the day of the bagged vacuum.  As companies strive to "go green"  they will develop better bagless technology and push the fact that you don't have to buy throw away bags or filters thus helping good ole mother nature.  You can already see it happening with the Bissell Healthy Home and the Hoover Whisper.  Better bagless, no cartridges to replace, lifetime filters.  I read on here that Miele has a bagless patent, don't be suprised to see that on lthe market at some point either.  There was a time when all vacuums had dump bags but when paper came out people loved the convieniance of being able to just throw away the bag.  Times have changed, now people want to reduce, reuse, and recycle.

As far as the Eureka Boss Smart goes, it just shows the power of being rated a "best buy" by Consumer Reports.  It was our best selling Eureka too at least until it didn't show up in the last issue.  Now it doesn't even get a second look.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
And almost all of these vacuums have a height adjustments.  Using previous logic should we not then assume that bagless vacuums are the new "American standard"?

Dusty

dusty wrote:

dusty,

Do most have a means of turning off the brush roll?  Carmine mentiond this as a con in the review of his Oreck.  He failed to mention this on the thread that was recently locked.  If this was standard on Oreck and all Hoovers I am sure he would consider it an American vac standard.

I see this as enhancing performance rather than the useless light.  I once strapped a ligh ton my DC07.  No increase in performance.

I see this as enhancing performance rather than the useless light.  I once strapped a ligh ton my DC07.  No increase in performance.

Perhaps you just needed new batteries.  I'm certain that would make a difference :-)

Dusty

dusty wrote:
That companies have a HEART and WANT to go GREEN for the betterment of Earth & Mankind is laughable....that we buy into it, is pathetic. It's a marketing tool no more no less and if it actually does work, merely a bonus. Try working in an advertising for a day any you will get quite an education. The American public is not as intelligent as we give them credit for (note the success of Shark and euro pro, LOL). Companies dictate what they want. That the will of the free market dictates, is an OLD axiom. Give them cow patties and thats the only choice..they buy it. Then Companies conclude "The market place DEMANDS cow paties lets give em more!

I'm not proud of becoming a cynic but the Market demands I be...LOL

dusty wrote:

Hey Dusty:

For disposable vacuums: use and throwaway, yes they are. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hey Dust Man:

I thought it was because the EUREKA Boss Smart Vac upright has a huge sticker on it that says it cleans 60 times better than a dyson. 

BTW, in the yearly CR editions for best buy in appliances and the new subscriber mail outs, the EUREKA Boss Smart vac still gets the recommendation as Best Buy for vacuums.  Often with a picture of a yellow dyson with the CR verbage: More money doesn't buy you better performance in vacuums.  That's from CR's hand not mine.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Are you talking about the testers that reported Hoover WT to nave excelent exhaust emissions when outside tests found them to be very unacceptable?  This is supposed to be a HEPA vac,

CarmineD wrote:
The sticker actually reads "cleans 60% better than dyson" and then of couse the proverbial asteric *on plush carpet compared to a DC07.

Interesting that even with CR's best buy rating  the DC07 achieves higher user ratings based on reviews on the CR site itself.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

The Boss blows dust and dirt across hard surfaces.  It does a good job on carpet but is useless on hard surfaces. That was my experience.

Hey Guys:

Talking green for vacuums and acting green are two very different things. 

If vacuum makers, who cater to big box retail stores [HOOVER, EUREKA, DIRT DEVIL, dyson] were concerned about the environment, they'd be making metal vacuums and not plastic throw-aways. 

BTW, the Wal*Mart Super store in LV stocks more racks of bagless filters than paper bags.  Why?  Concerned about going green?  Yes, indeed.  Green as in the color of US money.  Big box stores make more money on the sale of an average price bagless vacuum filter than 10 packs of paper bags.  The HOOVER nano lite bagless sells for $50.  The filter is $15!  The HOOVER Tempo sells for about the same and the paper bags are $2-$3 each. 

Not surprising on the rave dyson reviews.  People plunk down $500 plus on a big box store dyson and justify the wisdom [lack thereof]  of the purchase by praising it.  I call it the honeymoon purchase time.  Americans, in a good economy, will buy anything once.  Classic example is the Regina Electrik Broom.  Worse floorcare product ever made and sold.  Many sold for years and years.  Oftentimes for the same price or more than a decent full size vacuum, over $100.  Pyramid schemes thrive on this human frailty and mentality.  Suck others in by praising the benefits over the costs. 

I believe in the famous words of the great American philosophers:  Lucky1, PT Barnum, and Forrest Gump.  The latter said: Stupid is what stupid does!

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

So Dust Man, what are you saying exactly by the above?  EUREKA cleans better than a dyson DC07.

Or, are you impugning the DC07 on plush carpets?  [DIB, DC18, Motor are you out there?]  Are you siding with MOLE and I, the dyson critics.  Heaven forbid that we are right.  And Vacuumfreake!

Or, are you saying that the DC07, the signature dyson vacuum with THE MOST AIR WATTS of 270, is the best dyson to use for a vacuum test comparison by EUREKA?  Which is it?

Even an excellent wordsmither like you can't have it both ways. Want to try?

BTW, did anyone answer MOLE on what spec dysoners use these days to boast the superiority of dysons?  Use to be air watts.  I heard that until I was ready to burst.  No more.  Gone from 270 to 200 and less.  What is it now, I missed it?  US $$$.  That's way down too!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Not surprised about the filters.  The pleated Hoover filters should be disposed after each vacuuming. 

CarmineD wrote:
Actually I was pointing out the fact that manufacturers market the claim in the biggest boldest print followed by the * and the very fine print.  Most people don't bother with the fine print, they just see the claim and buy based on that.

The 4870 cleans plush carpets better than the Dyson.  I don't think many would disagree.  Does this automatically make me a Eureka groupie and a Dyson hater now?  That does seem to be the way it works around here. Different vacuums for different applications, it's as simple as that.

Air watts is purely a mathematical formula that equates to squat when it comes to cleaning. Didn't Hoover start that trend btw? I seen to recall them using "cleaning amps" or something along those lines.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Well Dust Man,

Would you care to explain your reasons for saying that the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum will outclean a dyson DC07 by 60 percent on plush carpets?  Is it the brush roll?  Is it the height adjustment?  Perhaps both?  Expound for us. 

Air watts are meaningless.  Good to hear you say it too.  MOLE and I told dysoners here for years that air watts is a farce.  They [and I'd be happy to tell you who they are if you ask] didn't believe it until dyson started skimping on the air watts as it improved the design and performance of its brush rolls.  Air Watts was the dysoners' battle cry.  Now, dyson and its fans avoid any mention of air watts.  Farcical measure.  Don't mean a thing if all the dyson brush rolls can do is sing [clutch chatter and ratcheting noise are the technical terms].   

BTW, the cleaning amps are useless too.  No doubt the reason they are long gone.  Same for amps.  Nothing to do with rug cleaning performance.  Not a thing. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

"wonder why the DC07 still our performs all the newer Dysons."   Written by HARDSELL the xxxxxxx.

HS, in his infinite lack of vacuum wisdom, believes a DC07 is the signature dyson model.  But wait, he doesn't stop there.  No, not HS.  After 6 years, 450 dyson engineers, and a swat team/task force of 12 high paid and powered designers, HS states that the new dysons don't measure up to the DC07 in performance.  But wait it gets worse:  HS says $399 for a DC07 is too much money.  He refuses to buy one for that amount. 

You see what he's trying to do?  He's trying to slicky another free dyson!  Any dysoners and fans of new dyson vacuums want to agree/disagree with HS's emminently brilliant revelation?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Gotta love fine print.  The reality is the Eureka can only outclean one Dyson, but to Eureka it's a Dyson nonetheless and provides the basis for their (vague) claim.

The only reason the DC07 is used in this comparison is like I mentioned in another thread; it is the proverbial Dyson "whipping boy".  Any other manufacturers, dealers, etc. who want to make a claim for themselves against Dyson will automatically choose either the DC07 or DC14 since they do have a softer brushroll than the rest.  Again, path of least resistance.  Use a Dyson with an aggressive brushroll (like the DC15, 17, 18, 21, 23, 24, 25...) and the claim will undoubtedly be harder to prove. 

As to the idea of air watts, performance has to count in other areas as well.  Good airflow and suction power (more airflow than anything) combined with a well-designed nozzle and brushroll generally means good performance all-around. 

-MH

dusty wrote:
Yes, Hoover used "Cleaning Effectiveness Per Amp" in the 1990s.  Their way of getting around the "amp wars" starting to take place at the time.  While Eureka and others were producing 12-amp cleaners, Hoover would have 6 to 8-amp cleaners with a cleaning effectiveness of 18.0 or something to that effect.  Of course I've always thought all of that was pointless and still do.  Amps don't measure performance, airflow does.  Many older cleaners are proof that you only need 3-4 amps (or less) to get the rug clean, at least before the bag clogs.  It seems to me the idea around more amperage was to compensate for the airflow choking off as the bag filled; (theoretically) the more amperage, the longer it would last without the user having to change the bag (unlike before where frequent bag changes were needed).  Theoretically.  3 amps or 12 amps, it's going to clog no matter what.  Of course now there are the cloth Filtrete bags which have made a huge improvement and allow the cleaner to go for much longer periods of time without clogging, and the reduction in airflow is a lot less than it would be with paper, IMO.

Not all Dysons are 12 amps.  In fact, most are 10 or 11-amp cleaners, and the DC24 uses only 6.5 amps.  Further proof that amperage does not mean better performance.  Why bother with more amps when the airflow will remain constant regardless? 

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Well well Motor:

Do I see a contradiction in posts?  You say one day that the DC07 puny brush roll is fine and then the next day say the newer dyson brush rolls are better?  What gives here? 

I suspect the DC07 is used because as Consumer Reports says it is the poorest of all dysons for pet hair pick up and removal.  It gets EUREKA the biggest bang for the buck: 60 percent better than a dyson.  SIXTY PERCENT.  Dyson isn't even close.  Shame on the DC07.

I also suspect that matching the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum against any other dyson would render the EUREKA a more worthy performer too.  But not by as large a degree.  There are straight suction canisters and tanks that would fare better than dysons on rug pick up.  Like the Henry vacuum which outclassed a DC15.  Do your recall?

Carmine D.  

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

The deeper you sink the more you lie.  Now xxxxxxx go back and show the forum where I said $399 was too high. While you are searching find where I got a free Dyson.

I think all see what you are trying to do.  When you lose you lie and twist facts. When Dyson kicked you a$$ they damaged your brain.

Do those clients that you were consulting still call and heckle you?

HS Man: 

I've posted info about dyson sales here specifically for you with prices as low as $280 for a new DC07 [before retailers' give backs].  Have you purchased one yet?  No, but you post on another thread that you bought one for $399 [and sold it after 3 years].  You said the prices for the best dyson [DC07] are too high.  Show us where you didn't.  Say it now, if you think the $399 price is reasonable on the DC07!

What do you say about the $500 plus prices on the newer dysons that don't perform as well as the DC07?  Worth the do re me? 

You'll never get another new dyson by posting with these conflicting messages about dyson performance and prices.  We know the real reason you bought a Royal Eminence for $299 with the proceeds from the DC07.  You're trying to slicky another new dyson just like you did before with the DC07.  But, dyson learned you sold the first one.  You told us that's not you!  Why?  Because you didn't sell the free gifts from ORECK when you returned the vacuum.  Shame on you HS.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I had an $800 Oreck. which is one of the cheapest built vacuums on the market.  The Dyson is worth much more than the Oreck.  It probably cost more to bring a Dyson into the US than it cost to manufacture the Oreck.  I think most all vacuums are over priced as are most consumer goods.  Most are priced at what the public will pay.  COMPARED TO THE $800 ORECK THE DC07 IS A BARGAIN AT $399.

You can refer to my above stgatement about prices.  Again, compared to other vacuums Dyson is not over priced. 

Only an old fool could assume that my Dyson was free.  You contradict yourself.  First paragraph you say that I paid $399 then you say it was free.  Why would Dyson give me another vacuum if I make it known that I sold mine and bought a Royal and a Kirby?  I never got any free gifts with my Oreck.  Can't keep something you do not get.  In fact I bought an Oreck air purifier at the same time.  Never opened it and returned with the Oreck.  I figured that if the vac was such a POS the air cleaner was no better.  The public seems to share my thoughts.

You are digging a deeper hole and your nose is growing.

HARDSELL wrote:
Good call on the air purifier.  The vac is a masterpiece compared to that thing.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Motorhead already did.  DC07 has a softer brushroll and certainly doesn't work the carpet over like the 4870 does. If Eureka really wants to do a closer comparison (which they don't ) they should  use their new heavily promoted Capture against a DC18.  Bagless vs Bagless. 

Dusty

dusty wrote:
Hi Dusty,

I had seen the Capture before at Wal-Mart but didn't realize that was being "heavily promoted" (much like anything else Eureka has to be exact, with the exception of a dual-cyclone canister they're either bagged or bin-filter bagless, not even innovative in the form of copying other designs and little advertising if any at all).  Nothing to offer there in my opinion, just a bin filter that clogs immediately and as with any bin-filter cleaner the potential to leak a LOT of fine dust.  With the exception of the Hoover Nano Lite every bin-filter cleaner I've seen (from ANY manufacturer, not just Eureka) is a poorly designed, cheap piece of $#%*.  Put any of those up against a Dyson and the outcome would be painfully obvious.  Wouldn't even take a second thought to know that when compared to a Dyson, the Capture wouldn't capture much.  About the only thing it would "capture", to me, is anger from enraged users wondering why it stopped picking up within 5 seconds of use.  And I can't even begin to imagine how much of a mess emptying *that* would make, pulling fine dust-laden hair off from the filter each time...

If I saw any manufacturer promoting a dust-spewing bin filter bagless, the first thought that would come to my mind would be "What are they thinking?"  Talk about marketing suicide, much to the benefit of competitors of course.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:  
The Capture is where Eureka is spending the bulk of it's television and print advertising money on.  It's the latest and the greatest. We have the Capture+ in store and while it has the features (bare floor cleaning, geared belt, hepa filter) it doesn't come close to working like the Dyson does.  The biggest complaint we get is the handle weight, the thing is heavy and poorly balanced.  So far the only ones we've sold have been to guys who don't mind the weight. On the upside, it is cheaper than a gym membership and if you vacuum every day I'm sure you'll be ready for the beach in no time.  Gee, sounds like a good idea for an infomercial!

Dusty

Where can I go to find a picture of this thing?  I'm very curious about it!

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:

www.eureka.com

Hey Dust Man:

As I mentioned above, the EUREKA Boss Smart Vacuum match up gets the most bang for the buck against dyson for EUREKA.  Why?  SIXTY PERCENT better than a dyson [DC07].  EUREKA doesn't need to match any other of its bagless uprights against any other dysons because the majority of big box store vacuum customers will automatically impute the EUREKA finding that it cleans better than a dyson to all EUREKA's against all dysons.   Plain and simple. 

Add the Consumer Reports ratings for the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum as a BEST BUY consistently against the fair to middlin rated dysons and EUREKA has a win win all around.  IMHO.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS My Man:

Since you asked [which in itself is very revealing] I'll tell you.  You think you can slicky another new dyson the same way you did the first DC07.  By posting here about how great dyson art.  History repeating itself. 

You stated here several times that after you sold the DC07 you went out and bought a DC14.  Why?  It's a forgiveable excuse to sell the free DC07.  You planned to upgrade to another dyson a DC14.  By saying a DC14 didn't measure up to your expectations [read as good as the DC07]  you returned it.  Again, foregivable.  But what did you do?  You didn't return it for a DC07 as most would do if they felt the way you did.  But for the credit.  If you stopped there, or said you planned to buy another DC07 at a future time [since you believe it is the signature dyson] you may have still had a chance to obtain another dyson free.  But you blew it. 

Being a man with a conscience, you said you used the dyson proceeds to buy a bagged Royal Eminence.  That's where your argument fell apart [and you kissed a free dyson good bye].  The reason history won't repeat itself again with a free dyson.  Tho, saying the dyson DC07 outcleans the Royal was a very nice touch.  You hoped it would ingratiate you with the dyson powers who be who read here.  You thought it would compensate for the error of selling the free dyson.  But it didn't work.

No great loss tho in the end, right.  Why?  You had free use of a dyson for 3 years.  Made some money on the sale.  And you still believe $399 is a fair price for the DC07.  I'm sure you won't mind running right out now and buying your next new dyson for $280 [or less].  Let us know please when you do.  I want to be the first to congratulate you on the purchase.  So you don't have to keep kicking yourself everytime you use/loan out the inferior bagged Royal.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You caught me Carmine.  I bought a DC07 and had it in my car when I returned the Oreck.  I told the store manager that I had decided to buy a new Dyson.  He was not aware that I had the Dyson with me and proceeded to bash the Dyson.  I made a bet with him.  We would test a DC07 against the an XL21.  If the Oreck was better I would pay double retail.  If the Dyson performed better he had to buy me a Dyson. 

When I went to my car and came in with the Dyson he began to make ecuses for not betting.  It was too late and the contest began.  I had bought baking soda for the test.  The XL 21 choked on the baking soda and the DC07 whooped it.  I think some of the would be Oreck shoppers rushed out to buy a Dyson that day.

That my friend is how I got a free Dyson and is why I previously told a forum reader to take baking soda for the test before purchasing.  No wonder you scoffed at this test.

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:
Hi Vacuumfreeeke,

If it's the Whisper you're referring to then you will probably have to go to your nearest Wal-Mart since it's on neither the Hoover nor the Wal-Mart website yet.  The same thing occurred with the Nano Lite when it was brought out last summer and if I recall took a few months to appear online.

Of course the positive side to that is once you do check it out in person, you'll be very tempted to pick one up, and if you do, you'll be using it as your everyday cleaner (as I am).  As I mentioned earlier it's basically a Dyson DC07 or DC14 for $120, with some added advantages.

-MH

HARDSELL wrote:
Great story HS.  Certainly proves all there is to prove about the Oreck's performance, or lack thereof.  Now we all know why they use kapok instead of baking soda.  On the Oreck website the XL21 is touted as the "quietest, most powerful vacuum Oreck has ever developed"...wait, what was that again?  The quietest, most powerful vacuum Oreck has ever developed.  Oops! 

To me the XL21 is neither quiet nor powerful, but I guess when compared to other noisy carpet sweepers this one just happens to be slightly less noisy and slightly less of a carpet sweeper, leaning more towards "electric broom".  Awfulwreck indeed!

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

MH,

I had my first look at the Whisper today.  I thought it looked very similar to the Eureka Boss except for  the clear bin as opposed to the bag cover.    

Some of my initial thoughts based on observation without using.

The blue looks like it might sell well in the gay community. 

The chrome plastic looks like something from a toy. The wheels look cheap also.

The plastic does not feel like it is durable.  The bin looks small.

No brush cut off (unless the handle is in upright position).  Not a good way to vacuum.

I liked the hose.  It stretches easily without sling shotting the vacuum across the room.

I will likely try one in the near future.

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi HS,

The grey button on the right side (where the on/off switch is on the left) is the brush shut-off switch (the machine actually has a separate brush motor and no clutch like the Mach series).  With the switch in the "on" position, the brushroll will shut off automatically when the handle is raised, but the brushroll can also be turned off (via the switch) to clean bare floors.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Thanks MH. As you can tell I was just looking at it cosmetically. Did not give a thorough exam.

I am anxious to give one a spin.

CarmineD wrote:
At the moment the 4870 is about the only thing Eureka has going for it.  I'm kind of surprised Eureka don't push it more than they do.  I noticed in the CR that it lists this model as having limited retail availability in the US.  Anyone heard if this model is being dropped?

On another note, while we're doing comparisons.  The Riccar Superlite is advertised as cleaning 40% better than the Oreck.  You ever wonder what your leaving behind in the carpet, Carmine? :-)

Dusty

dusty wrote:
I agree.  The 4870 is a good machine for anyone wanting a sealed HEPA bagged cleaner on a budget.  I haven't seen any indication of Eureka dropping that model since it does seem to be a good seller, which for Eureka nowadays says a lot.  However, it has been around for about 5-6 years IIRC with the only changes being in the color of the machine, so who knows what the future holds for it.  

In the next few weeks Eureka should be coming out with a new Wal-Mart model, the AirXxtreme which is a dual-cyclone upright.  Besides the dual-cyclone Whirlwind canister (6510A) it's the first cyclonic model they have brought out in a while.  It's still amusing, though, that while other manufacturers are introducing multi-cyclone models, that Eureka is just now jumping back on the dual-cyclone bandwagon.  Then again, Eureka was never known for being ahead of the game. 

I hear cries of "me too, me too!" in the distance. 

-MH

Motorhead wrote:
All of this from a company that promotes "innovation, not imitation" on it's product literature. Is the Wal-Mart vac the same as the new Eureka Envirovac?  The cyclonic filter system in that thing looks like they stole it from a Europro upright.  I don't mind the bagged version of the Air Extreme but the bagless fails in the same spot most of the other Eureka bagless fail..foam filter clogs quickly and suction drops off.  Give them another 5 years, somebody at the company will notice multi-cyclones and finally institute it into the line.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hey Dust Man & Motor:

It's not so much the soft brush roll as the rug height adjustment.  On many plush carpets soft brush rolls work very well if combined with a rug height adjustment.  The EUREKA Boss Smart Vac 4870.  has a 7 position rug height adjustment with a brush roll on/off switch.  That's what makes the big diff with a dyson DC07 and the 60 percent better cleaning by the EUREKA.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hey Dusty:

No chance of dropping.  COSTCO just added the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum to its sales venue.  Wal*Mart has always carried it.  BEST BUY stores too, as I mentioned it's top seller for most stores.  Even a small scale retailer like Fry's Electronics carry the EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum.  In fact selling on sale this week for $120, a $30 savings.  Just to mention a few of the big box stores.  That's pretty pervasive.

Second question:  No, never give it a second thought.  Why?  I vacuum everyday with the ORECK.  It takes surface dirt and dust 5 days to get embedded deep down into the carpet fibers and backing.  It doesn't get that chance in my home. 

Having said that, I mentioned earlier when there was talk about a new RICCAR/SIMPLICITY lightweight, that I planned to purchase as soon as they become available in LV.  I still do. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hey HS man:

I caught you [plural].  You were an accomplice in this seedy cynical alliance.  It wasn't dyson.  It was a dyson dupe: dualcyclone aka Tom Gasko.  The alter ego, id, best friend and mentor of Motor man here.  They think, speak and act alike.  Like siamese twins.

It made for a comfie, cozy and confidential twosome on WTBVF and here for all things pro dyson and anti Carmine D.  Dualcyclone [Tom G.] had a willing cohort for his scheme.  You fell into his trap for a gift of a free DC07.  Not even a new one for $399.  It was a repack.  Commonly called in the industry a dyson refurb.  No wonder you sold it.  Have you bought a new one yet?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Such a whimsical response from you Carmine. I have never met nor communicated with any outside this forum.

You were so naive as to think that Dyson wanted to give you a free vac for you use and feed back.  Your opinion would be useless to Dyson. Many got a laugh at Dyson once again kicking your rear.

I already told you how I got my free Dyson.  I would feel guilty to take another that way.

Looks like a decent bagless cleaner for the money,Great price , has all the right parts [even though its bagless], Whats D have to combat this machine,another $500.00 piece of art work?

But, But, we have level 3 cyclonic cleaning action,And were nice guys [HONEST],

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
It may have 7 height adjustments but it probably only out cleans on one of them.  What are the chances the consumer will pick the right one?  Once again, people have a tendency to always choose the lowest "most suck" setting and that isn't usually the most effective.  The Riccar SL4 has no height adjust yet CR rates it just as effective on carpet as the 4870. How does the height adjust factor into that?

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

Simple.  Don't need the rug height adjustment on the RICCAR [or the ORECK for that matter].  Save very long shag.  The RICCAR lightweight is just that so the brushroll is not weighed down into and onto the rug [even plush pile] like it is with the EUREKA Boss Smart Vacuum. 

The RICCAR's  [and ORECK] lighter weight and mass make it easier to push and pull over rugs and carpets than the full size EUREKA Boss Smart upright vacuum.  Another reason the rug height adjustment is needed [and almost always included] on full size US upright models.  

Consumer Reports, typically as part of the ranking and ratings of uprights and canisters specifically annotates the vacuum makes and models having rug height adjustments [as it does in the March 2008 edition].  Based on the March 2008 CR, the majority of vacuums reviewed have a rug height adjustment.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You claim that the manual height adjustment makes the Boss clean better on plush carpet than Dyson.  That should put it on a level playing field with Oreck.  It will out clean the $800 Oreck.  Why would anyone but a weakling want the Oreck?

CarmineD wrote:
Then you're implying that the Oreck does not work well since it has a soft brushroll and no height adjustment.  Excellent!  Something we have known all along, AND the first intelligent statement you've made on here in ages.

Motorhead wrote:

No Motor Man, not quite:

You said that WRT the dyson brush bar and Dusty quoted you.  Did you forget already? 

I disagreed with both of you.   

Let me recap again just for you.  Topic:  EUREKA Boss Smart Vacuum upright outcleans dyson by 60 percent.  Question: Why?  Answer:  Soft dyson brush roll.  Wrong!  Try again. 

A soft brush roll is not the reason a dyson DC07 fails against the EUREKA Boss Smart Vacuum on plush carpets.  EUREKA is 60 percent better.  [A claim that dyson has never challenged and/or rebutted with its own findings]. 

The correct answer is:  The poor design and function of the brush bar on a dyson DC07 in conjunction with the lack of a rug height adjustment are the reasons the EUREKA outcleans it by 60 percent.

In fact, I say soft brush rolls are very desirable on many plush carpets IF it is in combination with a rug height adjustment [especially for full size uprights]. 

Dusty pointed out that RICCAR [and ORECK] does not have a rug adjustment and cleans quite well on carpets according to Consumer Reports [you're familiar with that publication but you call it something else].  In fact,  both RICCAR and ORECK lightweights clean and groom rugs/carpets as good, if not better than some full size uprights [like your fave brand and in particular the worse of all for pet hair pick up (read kapok test) DC07].

I agreed with Dusty.  But I took it a step further.  I say the reason is because these are lightweight vacuums.  Not full size heavy bulky upright vacuums.  RICCAR and ORECK lightweights are less than half the weigh and bulk of most full size uprights.  Consequently, they have less vacuum head weight [which houses the brush roll].  On plush carpets, these lightweight smaller uprights don't need a height adjustment [like full size heavy US uprights] to maneuver over and clean carpets well. 

Now, wouldn't you agree Motor man?

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hey HS MAn:

I'm not sure what it is you are saying.  I don't think you know.  But, let me clear up the misconceptions on your part. 

First, ORECKS can be bought for as little as $200 new.  I proved this to you and Motor man [who doubted me here] with advertised ORECK sales.  Granted ORECKS are not free [as with your favorite refurb brand]. 

Second, the EUREKA Boss Smart Vacuum is $150.  But, it's a porker.  Like Dusty said, it's cheaper than a gym membership.  The ORECK is trim and lean [no gym membership needed].  Both will clean and groom carpets equally well and are rated the same by Consumer Reports for rug/floor cleaning.  The choice between the two is really dependent on the likes and dislikes, wants and needs, of the user. 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Hey MOLE Man:

I hear the backround music playing:  Dum, dum, dum, dum......  Still not in Vegas stores, but I hear on the way.  Appears TTI and HOOVER have settled into a mutually beneficial business and professional relationship.

What are the filter costs and maintenance on this HOOVER Whispertone bagless?  Come with a turbo tool on board?  Cord winder? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I know exactly what I am saying.  Not surprised that you can't comprehend.  There was no doubt that an Oreck could not be bought for $200 during a promotion.  Fact is the local Oreck stores refused to sell me a vacuum without the canister.  Orecks can also be bought for $800.  Are you saying that the $200 version performs just as well?

Remember, I owned a Boss and an XL21.  I know from experience that the Boss vacuums better.  Maybe your wife should have told you that a $150 Boss was better than a $200 Oreck.  Oh wait.  I remember now the Oreck is only needed by the feeble. 

No, Orecks are not free.  Dysons are free when Oreck has to buy you one like they did me.

Hey HARDSELL My Man:

You are quite the vacuum buyer and user.  It's nice to see that the ORECK XL21, EUREKA Boss Smart vacuum, and dyson DC07 all met with the same fate by you.  Gone but not forgotten.

How's that new dyson looking?  I'm amazed that the big box retailers are not advertising the latest and greatest dysons.  Lots of others beside dyson advertised, but not your fave free brand.  Still can't find the dyson TARGET brand.  I think its a collector's item now. 

Carmine D.  

HARDSELL wrote:

Hey Big Guy:

Gotcha!   

No hard feelings.  Like I said in posts here, I wouldn't do it.  It's not me.  But I don't tell others what they should do.  You got a freebie refurb dyson and made some money on the sale to put toward a bagged Royal Eminence.  Not a bad deal for you.  For a false friendship with a guy who needs and craves friends both in and out of the industry. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Noe of this makes sense.  I have never owned a refurb and I do not know who you are saying needs friends.

Good joke HS, made me laugh!  Thanks, big guy! 

BTW, you never told us how much the 3 year old refurb DC07 sold for.  Don't want to say because it may offend the donor?

Good thing it was not a sale to you but a gift.  If it were a sale, the carton would have had to say repack/refurb.  Else the seller [a business vendor] would be in violation of a federal law.  And penalized for the offense.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

The amazing thing is that the refurb beat the Oreck and I got it free because of the bet.

Whooped the Oreck just like Dyson did to you when you were consulting.

MY GOODNESS! All of this (NOT SO) passive aggression reminds me of the Vacuumland.org forum! About a year ago, the banter started taking a downhill turn and good folks lost their manners. I hope this isn't happening again.............

Hello Mr. Bojack:

Like that name.  Do you know the origin?

Carmine D.

Mister_Bojack wrote:

It only appears that way.  From what little I know [I was not a poster there], there were some very intense feelings and emotions involved in the bantering which went off course.

HS is one of my favorites here and tho the banter reaches intense levels of feelings and words, I like and respect him and always have.  As I do all the other posters here.  We are all adults here and should be able to take as well as we give.  If not, then you shouldn't be here.   

In between the extreme words and lines, there is much to be learned here and a wealth of experience and knowledge among the posters.

PS:  He plays a horrific game of golf!  Despite paying $2000 for new clubs.

Carmine D.

Mister_Bojack wrote:
Actually this is all in good fun.  I don't take anyone's remarks seriously and those they are directed to don't take my remarks seriously either.  Between all of that there is quite a bit of information shared here.

-MH

Mister_Bojack wrote:

This forum was really dull prior to the bantering.  Carmine once sold Dyson and I sold Oreck.  I now sell Ocean front property in Minnesota.

Seriously, we do get aggressive because of our passions.  I can't speak for the others, however I feel as if I have known them for years and only wish that we could meet in person.  I give Carmine a hard time and at the same time I really value his friendship.  He returns as much as he receives.

Guys,

James should learn from the lessons TTI and Bissell are giving him.  He should spend the time and money (pennies really) to secure as many low w/ high cyclonic filtration layouts as possible.  Having only two competitors is a hell of a lot better than having more than two competitors with Dyson-like filtration.

 

Q:  How many big named vacuum brands actually own manufacturing and the dirt it sits on (assumed) in 3^rd world countries like Chinese owned Hoover?  Certainly, this gives them a HUGE pricing advantage over those who farm out their manufacturing.  What do you guys think…  is Chinese owned Hoover forgoing profits on the manufacturing end or retail end with regards to pricing the Hoover Whisper so to satisfy Walmart and/or otherwise?        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

I think you read too much into the obvious.  The HOOVER Whispertone [2008] supersedes the Mach 3 [2007], which superseded the FUSION [2005 with a 2 year tenure].  All are Wal*Mart exclusives, at least initially, and priced at about $120 MSRP.   On sale Wal*Mart sells for $99-$109.  Recall the HOOVER Fusion was a sourced HOOVER vacuum [with TTI] before the TTI takeover of HOOVER. 

As posted here by a dyson insider, the HOOVER Fusion was one of Wal*Mart's top selling vacuums [despite all the yearly negative reviews by Consumer Reports on its emissions].  That says alot about the HOOVER-Wal*Mart uprights.  Why?  Wal*Mart featured the GE vacuum line in 2000, a Wal*Mart exclusive then and still today.  It's cann is consistently rated a BEST BUY by Consumer Reports for the money [MSRP is $150].  [BTW, the GE vacuum line is China made too by EUREKA]. 

The sales success and popularity of the HOOVER bagless uprights are the reasons that Wal*Mart keeps an ongoing business arrangement with HOOVER Maytag, HOOVER Whirlpool, and now HOOVER TTI for an exclusive upright year after year for years. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Did Maytag Hoover and now the 3^rd world Chinese manufacturer and owner of the Hoover brand (TTI) build the Fusion/s, Mach/s and Whisper (and assumed future rebrands) on hard work and integrity?        DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine, interesting you mention that, there has been another price cut on the Mach 3 (closer to $90 now). 

If all of those Fusions/Mach series cleaners sold even *with* potential emissions problems due to an improperly designed shroud, imagine what the correctly-designed Whisper will do.  It won't be able to fly off the shelves fast enough.  Everyone who buys one will love it, regardless of it's someone looking for an inexpensive bagless upright (and could just as easily purchase a bin-filter model) or someone smart enough to realize what it really is (overlooking the deceptively low price) and purchases that over a more expensive cleaner. 

Wal-Mart has not offered any vacuums under the GE label for a while, at least in the past year.  None are listed on the website, and I haven't seen the canister at any store in ages, nor was it tested in the latest (March '08) vacuum report in CR.  Last summer WM introduced a $60 GE-branded lightweight upright, not sure of the manufacturer but it definitely wasn't Eureka.  Decent dual-cyclone bagless cleaner (I picked one up to try and liked it) but lasted only a few months; was recalled later in the year for possible lead paint fumes due to overheating.  Most likely from users not knowing of the foam filter underneath the bin that needed to be cleaned periodically. 

-MH

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

Carmine may have a different opinion but to me that would be questionable.  The Fusion/Legacy/Mach series appear to be well built structurally (good metal telescoping handle, etc.), yet at the same time I've heard of many problems surrounding the brushroll and clutch on those, namely the bearings in the brushroll seizing up.  I'm inclined to believe this was/is more of a user-created problem than anything else (due to improper use/neglect/etc.), especially since I never learned the exact circumstances of those problems.  No doubt something caused by large amounts of hair becoming entangled in the brushroll, and left there.

As I mentioned earlier, the jury is still out as to the longevity of the Whisper since it is a new model, but I don't see why it *wouldn't* last a good 6-7 years (at the very least) if properly maintained.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Hey MH,

I'm not sure what you are saying in the highlighted.        DIB

Motorhead wrote:

Hello Motor:

My guess is that because GE recently put its appliance division on the auction block [and had plans to do so for awhile], it did not renew/continue its exclusive GE vacuum line with Wal*Mart.  Tho, the gold GE cann [superseded the GE green (EUREKA) cann] and upright are still prominent in the WM stores in LV.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

In the distant past, I would agree with calling China a 3rd world [under/developing country].  But no longer.  It is probably as mainstream as Malaysia and perhaps more so, based on the recent upheavals in the democratic government in Malaysia.  The World Olympics will certainly bring China into the 21 Century as a world recognized economic leader and also a supreme military power. 

Based on TTI's acquisition of HOOVER, it is the leading vacuum maker/seller in the USA by any measure and/or standard.   TTI is poised to take on dyson for the multi-cyclonic bagless vacuum market.  As Motor says: It's not who does it first, but which company copies the best and sells for less.  In a few years [especially in a the current down global markets], I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if TTI acquires dyson. 

As I said: China is slave labor without the guilt.

Carmine D

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

True, China has developed enormously, although much remains underdeveloped and poor.  I added to my statement below.        DIB
DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

In an effort to answer you, I edited my post at the same time as you posted.  Recall, James Spangler invented the first portable upright vacuum in the US.  Boss HOOVER bought the rights in 1907, patented, and mass marketed in the USA and UK by 1912.  Who had integrity and did the hard work?  I'd say both men.

Dyson produced the first multi cyclonic bagless for $500.  TTI did it for $100.  Who did the hard work and has integrity?   That's not for me to judge.  It's for vacuum consumers to decide.   Which gets back to Motor's Law:  It's not who does it first, but who copies the best and sells for less.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

Sorry for the confusion, I was stating that to me the effort TTI China is putting into building these vacuums is questionable.

-MH

CarmineD wrote:

Motorhead,

Thanks for the update on the Whispers flaws.  I would expect James to begin running the same t.v. aderts he ran in the UK showing his vacuums getting abused and not breaking.  The VAX multi-cyclonic, Bissell HH vs. Dyson story has and is still being playing out and from what I saw James answered 1st with a reliability/built quality commercial.        DIB

Motorhead wrote:

These are not yet available in the LV area.  I've not seen any up close and personal.  However, I suspect that a 6-7 year lifespan, which is generally the time frame for vacuum makers' big box stores' vacuums before obsolesence, is reasonable to expect.  Not bad for a $120. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Did you post the site for this commercial here?  If not would you please?  I'd like to view and probably others too.  As I recall, the BISSELL HH now has a 5 year warranty [like dyson] and the VAX has a 6 year warranty.  

Carmine D.

Got a quick look-see at the new HOOVER Whisper.  Not much of a look tho.  Got diverted by a friend who I met at Wal*Mart asking me about the HOOVER Floormate, which she ended up buying based on my say so.

Puts me in mind of the Euro-Pro Infinity.   I don't like the Whisper's brush roll.  Atypical of the HOOVER agitator I am accustomed to.  This one is wood,  smallish, narrow, and round with intermittent long strands of hair.  Not my preference in brushes atoll.  

Very nice large dirt bin with snug fit to the vacuum.  Easy on and off too with the dirt bin.  Nice and easy to dump the bin and replace on the vacuum.  Decent price at $119.  I just might give it a whirl. 

Carmine D.

Carmine, hope you are sitting when you read this.

I purchased a Hoover (DC07) Whisper on Monday.  $98 at Wal Mart.

I never stand when I can sit.  Congrats.  Only one suggestion:  Use nitrogen in the wheels

Enjoy your new purchase.

PS:  I just noticed the post above yours is mine, dated Sept 16, 2008.  I mentioned to DIB a few days ago that I could not remember when I made a purchase at W*M last and it had to be months.  Several florescent bulbs.  Well, thebulb aisle is across from the vacuums and floorcare where I met a neighbor asking me about the Floormate.  This was the last time and purchase: September 16, 2008.  Not my favorite store to buy.

Carmine D.