Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

The Dyson DC22 canister was very recently introduced in Japan. I have heard that this will make it to the US market in order to expand their canister range.

Key Features:

-Root Cyclone with Core Separation
-Dyson Digital Motor
-Stowaway Design
-Motorhead
-Pre filter rinse once every seven years

Hello Motorhead

There are 2 vacuums in the UK that have copied or done there own version of Dyson's Cyclone technology and they are Vax and LG.  Both have done there own version of the

Root Cyclone Technology.  I believe the LG is very good version!   No other vacuums have gone that way yet, they are all cheap bagless ones using filters to filter the dirt out. Once

market leaders Electrolux and Hoover (UK) in the UK don't seem to make quality products anymore, both have not come out with anything very exciting in years.  Dyson is the

main player from what I can see in the UK!

DC18

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

I understand where you're coming from, however, taking an idea and embellishing it *is* in fact copying something.  When I said that Dyson copies exist, I certainly didn't mean it in a negative connotation...it's just what they are.  There will always be the front-runners (whether it be Air-Way, Rexair, or Dyson) that take the initiative to come up with a new, theoretically improved design.  If it proves to be successful and a fierce competitor, the others will most likely copy that same basic design, but adjust it to their own specifications, making changes where necessary...in other words take the idea and embellish it.  The way I see it, copying is definitely not a bad thing at all...it leads to many positive changes and advances and has brought us to where we are now (not just vacuums, many other things as well).   I honestly believe that had Air-Way not invented the disposable bag, Electrolux would have continued to use the cloth shakeout bag in the 1950's.   That's not to say that someone else wouldn't have invented the paper bag...it just would have come about at a later date.  Since they have been around so long (and are now so different from one another), it doesn't really make any sense for us to call all bagged machines "Air-Way copies," but all of the disposable bags are based on the same original design.  And the other water filtration vacuums on the market today besides Rainbow, however loose of a copy they are (separator, non-separator; cheap, expensive, etc.), are still copies of the same basic design invented by Rexair.  Again, I don't mean that in a negative way at all. 

As for cyclonic technology, I know it's been around, but not in the sense that Dyson came up with.  Even though Electrolux, Interstate, etc., touted cyclonic technology, they still needed a filtering medium (cloth bag).  That would eventually clog no matter how well-engineered the machine was.  I would compare those to the current filtered bagless upright and canister machines on the market today...yes, the dirt spins around in the container, but the filter still clogs.  If you were to remove the filter, the cyclonic action itself could not contain the dirt, instead it would naturally go toward the motor.  With the Dyson, you could remove all of the filters and it would not blow dust as the cyclonic action itself contains the dirt.  How many machines could you remove the filter from without loading the motor with dirt and consequently blowing visible dust out the exhaust?  Except for the Dyson (and other machines that have copied the design exactly like the Iridium), you really can't do that.  Just because the cyclonic action is there, doesn't necessarily mean it works.  That really all depends on how fine-tuned the design really is.  I agree with what you said about the Dyson attachments, those could definitely use some improvement.  Aside from the silly air-bleed hole, the DC21's crevice tool is OK, and I like the floor tool, however, the dusting brush and upholstery tool are horrible.  But mediocre attachments has been my main complaint on new machines for a few years; recently it's always been more of a scrub brush than a dusting brush, a short crevice tool, and a ridiculously tiny upholstery tool.  Regarding the Kenmore (my feeling is that the DC21 power nozzle is one of the best there is, even though the Kenmore's is good), the main characteristic of cyclonic machines is that air movement is not impeded.  Even if debris becomes trapped in the shroud area, air movement and filtration shouldn't be affected, especially not with this one since there are the high-efficiency cyclones as well.  In a cyclonic machine, the pre-motor filter never becomes the only filtering medium under normal use conditions.  I've never experienced anything like that with my DC21 during regular use.  However, if someone  "experiments" with one by sucking up a bunch of sheetrock dust, ash, etc., nonstop (like putting the hose into a bucket of ash or Capture fast, without going slowly and letting the machine take in extra air), there's bound to be some (if not a good amount of) dust on the pre-motor filter. Someone who had just bought their first Dyson (a DC18 Slim I believe) wanted to see what it could really do and did just that...sucked up a bunch of sheetrock dust up at once.  The pre-motor filter had a considerable amount of the stuff on there, of course.  Yes, the separation may be good, but it's not perfect.  It's only a Root Cyclone, not a level 3!  However, at no point in time did the suction ever drop off, and this is what this person was trying to accomplish to prove if the Dyson's claims were really true (after all this was the first one he bought...shortly afterward he bought his second new Dyson, a DC21). 

My feeling is that had James Dyson not invented cyclonic separation, Hoover most likely would not have come up with it on their own today...they would continue to use bags as they had been doing.  The problem was that Dyson was taking sales away from the high-end Hoovers...no one was buying the $400 WindTunnel (and later, the WindTunnel 2) anymore.  Hoover needed something to stay competitive (and, in hindsight, stay alive)...so they looked in the direction of their competition and the Fusion design was born.  To me, that machine was a dramatic departure from the others...for a while I did not care for the new Hoovers as even the expensive models still had a cheap "plasticky" feel to them.  The Fusion didn't.  The plastic parts were a different grade, and the telescoping part of the handle was metal.  Definitely an improvement, and ironically that was not the most expensive machine they had (or currently have, as the Mach 3), either.  Of course due to poor management (heading down an already rocky path and lacking innovation as early as the 1990s), Hoover would soon be acquired by TTI, although considering some of the decent TTI-made Hoovers that are out there, I don't think it was necessarily a bad thing.  The HealthyHome did the same thing for the Bissell name (in part due to its $299 price tag), in my opinion, a name commonly associated with cheap cleaners that don't clean and break often. 

What I'm trying to say is that maybe we're on to something here, that because of the copying and trying to make a better machine, the overall quality of new retail-store vacuums is improving.  I honestly believe that they have improved in quality just in the past year.  I bought 3 machines brand new this year, for the first time in over 10 years...and those who know me know that I don't just buy any new machine.  Two of those machines I bought were Wal-Mart machines under $60 (the other was the Dyson DC21 canister), something that I previously would never touch.  And those two Wal-Mart machines have visible metal parts as well, not just the fasteners!  I for one would love nothing better than to finally get out of the "cheap crappy vacuum" stage...it seems that the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s were the worst period for that.  At any rate, things are looking up, and we can only improve from here.

-MH

P.S.  I recently found out that Wal-Mart is no longer selling the GE-labeled dual-cyclonic bagless anymore...any time someone brings one to the register and the cashier rings it up, it says "Do Not Sell."  I wonder why this is?

DC18 wrote: Hi DC18,

Again, I'm surprised that more manufacturers over there have not introduced their own version of the Dyson!  But I guess that would make sense since it seems that Dyson occupies a very large section of the market there/   What really caught my interest, though, is that both you and Trilobite mentioned that Dyson's digital motor is not on any machines over there yet.  I wonder why that is the case, considering the market for Dysons there is so large?  Maybe they don't feel it necessary to introduce new technology when they have already dominated the market?  Interesting...

-MH

Hello Motorhead

Yes it is surprising more haven't followed, but having said that Hoover (UK) and Electrolux have in the passed tried to do there own version of the Dual Cyclone back in the late 90's. 

Prolem is Dyson would alway take them to court for infrigement on his patents (which has expired on the Dual technology a while ago) so probably put them off. 

Now Dyson has moved on to Root technology dual is ok but old technology.  LG and Vax are the only ones really that are doing their version (copies) of the Root Technology. 

 All the other brands seem to be happy to knock out cheap bag and bagless machines for under a £100 or just over leaving mainly Dyson to dominate the higher upper

value of the UK Vacuum market.  I'm surprised the DDM has not made it into the UK market yet, not sure why this is? 

Yes Dyson does dominate the UK market I can't see that being a reason why the DDM has yet to be launched here.  Nothing too major since the DC15 Ball has been launched in the Upright and Canister (cylinder) markets in the UK. 

The DC22 Motorhead in the UK is a new up to date version to the DC05 Motorhead, and the DC18 is a up to date version of the DC03 with the DC15 ball technology made

slimmer and simpler.  Not that there is anything wrong with these new models, they were needed in the model line up.  I'm hoping the DDM will make an appearance in the

UK market in 2008!  Not sure what shape or form when it does appear here in the UK wil it take!  I do feel we are in need of a totally new upright to replace the DC14/07 in the UK although I believe the DC14 is

quite a popular upright model in the UK Dyson range!  The base of this machine (apart from a few changes/improvements with each model) has not changed since the DC04

model and I think it's time for a radical change which could include the DDM!

DC18

Hello,

 < This and other DC22 pics from a Japanese blog (while on blog, click pics to enlarge).  Here.        DIB

Hello DIB

Interesting pictures of the DC22.  Shows close up of the new Root and Core technology! Like the new motorhead that is on the DC22 looks slimmer in height! 

DC18

Hi DIB,

Great new pictures of the DC22, thanks for linking.  Of course you know it makes me even more anxious to see this machine in person and buy one when it's introduced here.  The new low-profile Motorhead does look good; appears to be slightly narrower but still the same basic design as the DC21's Motorhead, which is really one of the best power nozzles I've used in a long time.  To me a gear-driven brushroll is the only way to go now.  As for the low profile, I don't have a problem getting under the bed and other furniture with my 21, but this probably makes it even more of a breeze.

I'm still itching to hear how the DDM sounds on startup and full speed. 

Hello DC18 and Motorhead,

 

Glad you enjoyed my posting/s.  This DC22 looks to be James’ newest weapon.  It should keep his opponents at bay and give

consumers another choice, something needed and new.  Seven years (approx) of hassle free (no pre-motor filter cleaning) is what

the Core technology is and what James is betting on, I’m guessing with a bigger pre-motor filter too.  Today the Dyson copycats even

use James 6 month clean pre filter standard and messaging.  And so there they are, cleaning the filter every 6 months.  I was

wondering just how James was going to sell the Level 3 in the future…  cleaning ever 7 years vs. every 6 months (his old strategy and

his competitors current strategies).  I would expect to see this new strategy (cleaning every 7 years vs. 6 months) in his new uprights too.

The canisters verses uprights look to be more difficult at keeping dust away from the pre filter.  I saw this Core patent a year ago or so,

I took another look recently at the patent, it shows 2 inlets at the “Core” high efficient cone.  But the Dyson Japan site shows only one inlet.

I saw no patents from any of his competitors that use anything interesting or close to James’ “Core” technology.  Certainly there are unseen patent

pending vacs that are not publicly posted.  I am baffled after looking at Dyson Japan and comparing the DDM vs. carbon motored DC22.

This site does not look at all finished, an example is a reference to the DC22 having the Root6 technology as well as phone home capabilities.

I looked hard, and per Dyson Japan the only difference is the warrantees and pricing.  But if you look close to the DDM has an outer ring at

the power button that lights green - clean filter and red for clogged pre filter.  The carbon brush motor DC22 does not have this feature.

 

Re:  Dyson copies.

The Bissell “Healthy Home”, the Dirt Devil “Spinnergy:, the Vax “Zero” are ALL near exact copies.  Claim #7 in one of Dyson’s multi-cyclone

patents narrowly defines the patent and these wonderful companies have exploited and built vacuums around this.  Claim #7 says

"at least 1/2" of the high efficient tapered cone sits inside of bin. - Another Dyson patent claims "cyclone projects into collector" see Claim#10.

Bissell, Dirt Devil and Vax exploited this narrow definition and have just simply put the cyclones on top on the bin! - Ta-da!

Below are Dyson and LG patents.

Dyson patent filing date:  14.09.2001 patent here	LG patent filing date: 17.08.2005  patent here

 

My money is on Dyson.

DIB

Hello DIB

Thanks for posting the patent links to both.  My money is on Dyson too.  I do prefer the new motorhead on the DC22 to the DC21 like Motorhead says it looks slimmer.  Looks like it

has one long brush bar on the picture unlike the DC21 motorhead where the 2 brush bars attach to the geared mountings either side.  I will be interesting to see this Core Seperation

in the new uprights from Dyson.  Although the DC17 with its level 3 sort of answers that question as to how they may go about it!?  I would like them to use something simular to the

DC22 Motorhead on a new upright giving a slimmer cleaner head/body.

Onr thing looking at different pictures and the Dyson Japan Website of the DC22 it doesn't look much bigger than the DC12!  After all they prefer smaller vacuums because of the

limited space they have over there! 

DC18

Hi,

Nobody asked me but . . .

Online shoppers, Sears has a nice price drop AND a discount for those who just must have a Dyson DC21.  However, 9:00  p.m. today is the end of the line.

The price on the DC21 is $474.99 with an additional 10% off "Cyber Monday" discount (-$47.50) AND shipping is free as the order is over $49.00. 
Final cost, not including local sales tax, is about $427.00.  Check it out if your of a mind.

This is not a recommendation of Dyson. It's just that God knows I love a good sale.

Happy shopping and no I don't work for Sears,

Venson