The Dyson DC22 canister was very recently introduced in Japan. I have heard that this will make it to the US market in order to expand their canister range.

Key Features:

-Root Cyclone with Core Separation
-Dyson Digital Motor
-Stowaway Design
-Motorhead
-Pre filter rinse once every seven years

Wait. Now how many Cyclone are their?

It's rather larger

Thanks for the pics.

It looks like a full sized canister with Level 3 technology.  I hope James found a way to keep the weight down, typically more cones equates to more weight.

Not quite sure why the high efficiency inner-bins need to be so large (the outer is almost as big in diameter as the shroud itself.

With it's large profile, the DDM and Level3 Root Cyclone (or 'core separation' - I like that better) it's surely destined to be on the US market in the near future.  Clearly, Dyson wants to step up to the mantle for the most powerful canister.

1) I wonder if it'll have a motorhead option or will the immense power be enough to spin the turbine head at a good speed? It looks like the wand has a flat part which could contain electrical contacts?

2) It looks like the pre-motor filter goes 'inside' the right-hand wheel? I wonder if this placement, the digital motor and the space saved will mean that the power cord on the winder drum can be longer than usual?

3) I like the improvement in usability for the power / cord winder button, it's very clear in their functions. It looks like the power button glows green in use and turns red if there's an obstruction.

4) It isn't obvious if this model has the phone-based diagnostic function or not?

You'll find many DC22 answers here - Dyson DC22 launch. 

The DC22 is certainly different and larger for Japan market!  Another spin on the Level 3 Root Cyclone technology.  Maintenance free too!  Looking at the outer bin and shroud there does seem a lot of space between the 2!  Could see some larger objects getting obstructed!   Dyson seems to liked the cansiter market at the moment, with all the last few models being canisters DC19, 20, 21 and now the DC22!

Looking at the small cyclones on the top there must be about 14 or 15 of them.  To me this is a spin on the original DC08/DC08 TW that had 12 small cyclones!  Strange the DC19/20 and DC21 motorhead went to 8 small cyclones then looking at the new core separation/root cyclone on the DC22 they have revisted the 12 plus small cyclone but inclcuing the larger inner cyclone (level 3!).  DC17 has 2 smaller inner cyclones for the level 3!

DC18

[DC22 series]
Product name Product Name		ddm motorhead Motorhead ddm	ddm turbinehead Ddm turbinehead	motorhead Motorhead	turbinehead Turbinehead
[daisondejitarumota] DAISONDEJITARUMOTA		�›	�›	- --	- --
Motor equipped head Motor head		�›	- --	�›	- --
Attachment nozzle Attached nozzle	Micro turbine head MAIKUROTABINHEDDO	�›	�›	�›	- --
	Software brush tool SOFUTOBURA$#%*SURU	�›	�›	- --	- --
	[hutontsuru] FUTON tool	�›	�›	�›	�›
	Flexible opening nozzle Flexible nozzle openings	�›	�›	- --	- --
Manufacturer guarantee Manufacturer's warranty		5 years 5 years		2 years Two years
Substance size Body Size (Width ## depth ## height) (Width x depth x height)		397�~255�~292mm 397 x 255 x 292mm
Basic machine weight Body weight		4.8kg 4.8 kg 4.8 kg = 10.58 lb		4.9kg 4.9 kg 4.9 kg = 10.80 lb
Desired retail price Suggested retail price		Open price Open Offers
Shop front expectation price Over-the-counter expected price		Approximately 98,000 Yen 98,000 yen around	Approximately 94,000 Yen 94,000 yen around	Approximately 78,000 Yen 78,000 yen around	Approximately 76,000 Yen 76,000 yen around

Converted DC22 prices - yen to dollars and converted weights.  Any comments?

98,000.00 JPY = 850.86 USD

94,000.00 JPY = 816.22 USD

78,000.00 JPY = 677.33 USD

76,000.00 JPY = 659.96 USD

Now this is a machine I'm VERY anxious to see (and buy), even more so than I was with the DC21 Motorhead earlier this year.  That was one of the reasons why I bought one of those right when they were released exclusively to vac shops last April, before they debuted in big-box stores.   First it was a canister with an electric P/N, now it's one (finally) with the "digital" motor!  I had heard about the Dyson digital motor technology a few years back, but always wondered when they were going to bring it to the US...this is great.  The DC22 is supposed to be released to the US in April of 2008.  The "digital" motor (that is nearly identical to the switched-reluctance motor in the current Rainbow E-series) runs the plastic suction fans at a speed of 100,000 RPM, delivering 165" of water lift.  Can't remember what I heard about the air watt rating, but I know it's high.  The Motorhead will be slightly narrower than the one on the DC21, but otherwise the same, and yes, the pre-motor filter is accessed via the right wheel.  The price I believe will be $899 retail, wholesale about $630.  I'll keep everyone posted with any more information I hear.  Definitely seems like it will be the most powerful machine on the market.

Hopefully with this one, the slight quirks of the DC21 will be eliminated.  I HOPE the power cord is longer, though the DC21's long hose made up for it.  Better small attachments wouldn't hurt, either, although it appears that's not the case.  I don't really care for that large wand setup either, it took me some getting used to but I still would rather have the hose detach further up.  My main gripe, though, would be that awful trap-door assembly on the bin.  That is the one thing I don't care for on bagless machines.  On the DC21; the bin and cyclone assembly separate, and I can empty it slowly...no dust cloud there.  Just means I'll have to close the trashcan quickly ;-)

I also heard some talk about a self-propelled upright, and a commercial upright, both based on the DC17.  Can anyone confirm this?

Do Dyson canisters have a small wheel(s) on the undercarriage so that you can drag it across the floor?

Dyson should really build a DC15 successor with the inclusion of the aggressive brush roll and refined updates of the DC17, and the DDM and Root Cyclone + Core Separator of the DC22. With the estimated retail price of the DC22 being $800-900 USDM, I can only imagine such a flagship upright being close to that price range as well. I believe the DDM is very small and lightweight, so that would shave some weight off a full size 'Ball' design. However, with a Dyson upright in the $800 range, I would love to see them experiment with more exotic lightweight materials like anodized aluminum, and carbon fiber. That would be great if they can get a DC15 successor with the weight on par with the DC18. Also, I would like to see Dyson offer at least three optional brush rolls with three different grades of bristle stiffness that would be suitable for a wide range of carpets from plush high pile to stiff looped berber carpets.

And again dyson's KEY FEATURES,OFFER NO BENEFITS TO THE CONSUMER.How many people care about a digital motor that cant be repaired?

mole

iMacDaddy wrote:
When you pull on the hose, it 'up ends' the machine so that it balances on the two side wheels. There also tends to be 3rd 'jockey wheel' on the front of the underside.

iMacDaddy wrote:

Reducing the weight on the DC15 would be a good step - Dyson uprights are surprisingly light once you remove the motor. Problem with 'the ball' on the DC15 is that it's arrangement with the ducting and the retractable undercarriage with all it's springs and washers makes it a complex machine to assemble and less durable than the 2nd version used in the DC18. Presumely, they only keep the DC15 Animal on sale because it can collect more per hair than the DC18. A choice of brushrolls would be possible with the new cog arrangement, but it would add a cost for a feature that I'd presume that 95% of consumers wouldn't care for.

mole wrote:

Well, in the table above, you'll see that Dyson are offering an extended guarantee for folks that choose the digital motor version, so that's one benefit.

The other benefits are harder to quantify. Firstly, one possible disadvantage is that digital motor in previous vacuums is somewhat louder than a standard motor.
The other benefits are of size and weight, plus presumably you don't require a post motor filter? However, these are moot points if they're designing models where the digital motor is available as an option.

M00seUK wrote:
Wow, so a standard carbon-brush motor is offered alongside the new digital motor?  I didn't see that before...I wonder if this will be carried over to the US as well and people will have the option to select the digital motor?  As far as I know there is a post-motor HEPA on the DC22 much like there is on the DC21, although with the digital motor there's really no carbon-brush dust to catch ;-)

Whether or not the motor can be repaired makes me wonder how much stress (and heat) 100,000 RPM will put on the bearings, and how the bearings are made.  No doubt those will go first much like on many other machines.  I hope they at least had the sense to allow the bearings to be replaced...IMO that would be a waste if you had to replace the motor in its entirety.  I wonder how long it will take before Dyson starts using magnetic bearings where there are no rotating parts, and the armature is just held in place by strong magnetic fields.  Now that's a motor that would (theoretically) last a lifetime. 

I don't own one unfortunately, but I've used a 2-speed Rainbow E-series with the "hurricane" motor before which according to what I heard is similar to this.  Except on startup, it doesn't sound any different than a standard motor on high speed, but then again, it's only going about 30,000 RPM, not 100,000!  There's about a 1-second delay right when you flip the switch and the motor comes on, and the sound it makes on startup is quite interesting.  Sort of like an electronic "revving" sound if that makes any sense.  But if you put that one and a machine with a brush-type motor side by side, both on and running, and had someone come in to the room blindfolded, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 

I agree with IMacDaddy on what he said about the DC15...a redesign would definitely make a winner there.  From my experience the current DC15 design is very top-heavy and is horrible at bare-floor pickup.  The DC07 and DC14 have quite a few shortcomings and just need to go completely, in my opinion, especially now with the introduction of the DC17, 18, and 21.  With that self-propelled upright and the DC22 added to the model line the gaps would be filled. 

Re:  What’s the real difference between the DDM DC22 vs. carbon motor DC22 aside from price?

 

• The DDM is a “Maintenance Free” vacuum (no pre-motor filter cleaning/replacement for up to 7 yrs.)
• Logic tells me…  The carbon brush motor will be James’ typical wash-every-6-months pre-motor filter.

Why the “Maintenance Free” vacuum?  Two reasons…

1)      A friend predicted that James would have pc board failures eventually if he did not figure out how to always

have “clean air” to cool the DC12’s board. – Owners do not properly clean and maintain their pre-motor filters

and in a DDM vacuum this results in overheating and board failure. - Hence the DC22, with 1)  Dyson’s best

cyclonic filtering (perhaps best in the world) 2) a pre-motor monster filter and 3) a filter wash/replacement indicator

light or shut off (see power button, outer ring light – green = clean filter, red = dirty filter).

2)      James perhaps has now the worlds first and only… cleanest filtering and maintenance free vacuum.  And!- He

still has the DC12 if one wants a super compact yet powerful vacuum.  Not bad!

 

DIB

More Japanses DC22 launch pictures (showing motorhead).

Hi DIB

The DC22 sounds an impressive machine!  I take it the filter that is located behind one of the wheels is the pre motor filter?  And that the DDM models don't

have a post motor filter?   I think after a few years people would forget to wash the filter let alone after 7 years!  I've just got someone to wash their Dyson filter on there

DC04 for the first time!  The machine is about 5 years old!  Not surprising it's on it 2nd motor!  I'm surprised in someways Dyson has used a filter indicator as he has said

in the past that hes not keen on them!

The so called 'Motorhead' on this DC22 Japan model is in fact powered by airflow and not a motor?  Looks like it is, instead of one air intake it has 2 either side!

Wonder if this will make an appearance in the UK!  Never seen a replacement for the UK version of the DC07 Upright which was (still is!) in the UK Dyson's most

powerful upright to date!

DC18

Hello folks, I finally got around to migrating to the new site: just in time for the DC22, it seems.

DC18 (formerly known as "JD"?)  - I thought the DC14 range was the evolution/replacement for DC07.

DC07 had several 'deficiencies' (dust clogging, too tall for carrying for shorter people, whining noise from cyclones, strong suction). The DC14 addressed these flaws.

(What's with the daft formatting of this site??? The text runs off the edge of the screen, and the POST and REPLY buttons are miles away!)

Hello Trilobite

Yes the DC14 was a replacement in the UK for the DC07!   The DC14 did address some issues customers didn't like on the DC07!  I've had no issues on my DC07, but

one flaw or downside on the DC14 (personally) is the suction is no way near the DC07.  Now some say the DC07 was too powerful, but then you have some saying Dyson

vacuums are not  powerful enough hence the DC12 and DC22 with the DDM!  The main issue on the DC07 with the powerful suction was using the wand if they had the

suction release button on the hose cuff like the DC04 had then using the wand and hose would have been better.  Take the DC18 weight/size to power ratio is very good on this model. 

So what do you think to the DC22?  Not sure if this one will make the UK at some stage!  The Level 3 or Core Separation Cyclone technology is yet to make an appearance in the UK! 

I'm hoping a completely new upright to replace the DC14 with this technology and the DDM in the UK will appear at some stage! 

They have used the cleaning head and base on 3 models now in the UK DC04, DC07 and DC14 think it is time for a completely new design! 

Not that there is anything wrong with that it has worked well on all 3!  Lower slimmer cleaning head would be good!

DC18

(It's just this posting that the typing is off the page due to the pictures in the first posting!)

I find it extremely odd that the digital motor has not been launched in a UK vacuum. I also find it strange that Dyson has kept the latest cyclonic separation

techniques from us. What was the point of the DC19, DC20, and DC21 (apart from power nozzle)?

To tell you the truth, I'm starting to go off the Dyson designs, and beginning to wish some other manufacturer would take the initiative and launch a decent cleaner.

I'm fed up with Dyson's average suction power, when Dyson could quite easily make a more powerful machine (WITH A VARIABLE POWER CONTROL!).

I'm fed up with the ridiculous crevice tools fitted to current Dysons (stupid bend, too short and bloody daft 'airflow hole'!)

And I'm getting pissed off by the cleaning wand having to be disconnected when I want to use the hose end (which is 9 times out of 10!). (Mum's Panasonic upright has a very

simple hose to use, and a wonderfully long, useful crevice tool).

And, dare I say it, but a paper bag is SOOOOOO much easier to dispose of, than fiddling with bins (and clogged shrouds!).

I have been considering Sebo upright cleaners, amongst others.

Seriously, Dyson may lose another customer unless it bucks up its ideas - and quick.

How many Dyson copies currently exist in the UK?  I knew there was the Vax Zero at one time but is it still in production? 

There are so many of them here it's not even funny, and they keep coming.  As with anything, some are good, and others could be better.  The Kenmore Iridium/Progressive canister made by LG is probably the best one I've seen to date.  I had heard it was a good Dyson copy, even better than the Dyson according to some, but didn't think anything of it until I used one and examined it up close.  What a cleaner that is, and POWERFUL.  There was also something different about the cyclone assembly when I took it off that was a clear advantage.  Can't remember if it was sequential separation or not.  LG recently released an upright Dyson clone for Sears called the Kenmore PremaLite that I haven't had a chance to see yet...did talk to someone who played with one and he mentioned a few problem areas.  I noticed on the PremaLite that the bin attached to the rear of the machine, versus the front as with the rest which I thought was strange. 

The best upright Dyson copy I've used so far has to be the Bissell HealthyHome made by Daewoo.  Definitely isn't your run-of-the-mill cheap plastic "Pissell"...really a dramatic departure from that.  This one is actually pretty well made and fairly heavy.  Great engineering too I thought, and lots of power.  At the meeting there was a bunch of dirt and debris under the repair table, including small screws, nuts, bolts, etc. left over from stuff we were taking apart, and of course I put the HealthyHome to the test...picked all of it right up, screws and all!  Just for fun I also connected the hose to the Hoover Z400 (filtered bagless that had seen its fair share of use that night and was fairly clogged by then) while both were running.  The dirt stopped moving in the Z.  There's also the Bissell Total Floors Velocity which is supposed to be a copy of Dyson's dual cyclone setup...not sure how well that works as I haven't had a chance to play with one yet.

Hoover's Dyson copies include the Fusion, also badged as the Maytag Legacy (the Fusion/Legacy name is gone and the machine is now sold as the Mach 3)...there's also the Mach 5 and WindTunnel Cyclonic.  All three use the same bin setup where the air is drawn up vertically through shroud, where lightweight debris can clog the holes.  Leaves a lot to be desired and could definitely benefit from a redesign, but I've used them and they seem to work well enough.  Euro-Pro had the Shark Infinity, with 24 test-tube-sized cylindrical cyclones...not cone-shaped like the others.  I gave that machine a workout cleaning dirty machines pulled from the basement and the power didn't drop off, but you could see that the cyclones got dirty fast from fine dust.  Dirt Devil had that Spinnergy machine out for a while, worked OK but I thought it was VERY cheaply made.  I see it's been pulled now from the website.  I also see that they have a new machine on the site, the "i" which to me closely resembles the Vax Zero.  Interesting.   Wal-Mart also has a GE-labeled dual cyclonic bagless lightweight, with a large fine dust chamber, for $59.  I had to buy one this summer to try out, and it's not a bad little cleaner.  I did notice the pre-motor filter gets a little dusty after use, but I guess that can be attributed to the fact that it's only a dual cyclone.

Eureka is the only manufacturer I know that hasn't jumped on the Dyson multi-cyclone clone bandwagon, yet.  They had a dual-cyclone machine out for a while (4880 I think?) in the early-2000s which is gone now...all they have now (of course) are the horrid filtered bagless machines.

That's all I can think of now.  Any other Dyson clones you guys know of?

Hi Motorhead,

I don't think it fair to call them "copies".  That would mean that all bagged vacuums developed overtime are copies or that all machines that use water as the main filtration mediums are copies of each other.  That is not case. 
An idea is one thing and the way it's applied is another. 

The Electrolux XXX employed a low-mounted suction port that promoted air movement over the bottom of the bag which kept at least a portion of the bag wall "clean",  and the user working, until the vacuum was really full. 
The machine was also designed so that there was plenty of room all around the bag to allow as much filtering area as possible.  A lot of tank type vacs made during that era missed the point in that area.   Electrolux did not invent the disposable
bag which was in use well before the Electrolux Model LX which we first associate it with but the company did not "copy."  It took the idea and embellished it.  Thus came a double-walled, self-sealing dust bag that, even though on the small side,
gave you a decent bang for your buck in the average home.

Cyclonics -- the method used to produce air movement that inhibits loss of maximum suction -- is a term that vacuum makers have been playing around with for years and will continue to play with.  Filter Queen uses "cyclonics", the squat little piggy vacuums like Air Storm, Patriot,
Miracle Mate, etc., all use cyclonics to prolong suction.  The Kenmore Iridium is indeed a quite capable machine and though it shares the idea that Dyson also employs I don't see it as a copy.  As an instance, I like the Iridium more than the Dyson canister in that it
provides a better power nozzle and the option to raise or lower motor speed.  That too is what it's about.  Swirling air in x-number of directions doesn't mean much if you don't have well designed attachments and a modicum of convenience. 
The short coming of the Kenmore and the Dyson canister too -- if there copies -- must be the problem of filtering breakdown when air movement is impeded in the dust collectors due to larger dedris. My Iridium does a great job but debris can
become lodged above the flange on the shroud.  When that happens air filtration, not suction, takes a nose dive   Debris build up, and not a lot, compromises the ideal of "cyclonics" and the pre-filter becomes the essential filtering medium. 
Everything looks swell when you're just picking up a bit fluff and watching it swirl around in the dust bin.  Thus far, I have seen no demos of these machines that get down to the nitty gritty of real household use.  The Iridium I have gets the job
done nicely but I do have to have to remember to keep the little blue pre'filter washed.

As for the LG-sourced Permalite, it is another example of sound logic and convenience. Just about anyone can walk up to it and use it right of the bat as opposed to the confusion I've seen Dyson uprights cause for many first timers.  And believe me the
dust bin is in just the right place.  I plan on bringing one home in the not too diistant future for a thorough look.

Best,

Venson

Hello Trilobite

I'm surprised too that the DDM has not made an appearance in the UK, but looking at the latest figures from Dyson 80% of his market c(exports) comes from abroad now! Japan

I believe is one of his most successful markets, I think the the UK market has slowed down in recent years!  Saying that it would be nice to see the DDM and the new core separation

in the UK at some point, which I'm sure we will!  I've wondered what the point of the DC19 & 20 was, I can see the point of the DC21 with the motorhead!  I think they change the cyclone

setup from 12 to 8 cyclones to give the DC22 root/core seperation a better impact.  May be to cut down on parts etc so all model canisters and uprights at present use root 8 cyclone

technology.  I believe there is no difference in suction power but saying that th DC19, 20, 21 have lower airwatts then their older models DC08/DC08TW.

The bleed holes on the tools were useful on the powerful DC07 (UK) but have to say like you don't really serve a use anymore on models like the DC14,15,18.  I like the bend in the

crevice tools, as it angles the wand away from the wall, but yes they are not long enough and are no use with the bend in them when going down a narrow opening to clean.

The only thing I think Dyson uprights let themselves down with is the brushbar!  They do a good job but I have seem better lately as you mentioned on a Sebo (Felix & X4).  For me

they just need to change that and make the cleaning head flatter/slimmer to fit easily under furniture etc... Saves getting the tools and attachments out all the time!

DC18

Hello Motorhead

There are 2 vacuums in the UK that have copied or done there own version of Dyson's Cyclone technology and they are Vax and LG.  Both have done there own version of the

Root Cyclone Technology.  I believe the LG is very good version!   No other vacuums have gone that way yet, they are all cheap bagless ones using filters to filter the dirt out. Once

market leaders Electrolux and Hoover (UK) in the UK don't seem to make quality products anymore, both have not come out with anything very exciting in years.  Dyson is the

main player from what I can see in the UK!

DC18

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

I understand where you're coming from, however, taking an idea and embellishing it *is* in fact copying something.  When I said that Dyson copies exist, I certainly didn't mean it in a negative connotation...it's just what they are.  There will always be the front-runners (whether it be Air-Way, Rexair, or Dyson) that take the initiative to come up with a new, theoretically improved design.  If it proves to be successful and a fierce competitor, the others will most likely copy that same basic design, but adjust it to their own specifications, making changes where necessary...in other words take the idea and embellish it.  The way I see it, copying is definitely not a bad thing at all...it leads to many positive changes and advances and has brought us to where we are now (not just vacuums, many other things as well).   I honestly believe that had Air-Way not invented the disposable bag, Electrolux would have continued to use the cloth shakeout bag in the 1950's.   That's not to say that someone else wouldn't have invented the paper bag...it just would have come about at a later date.  Since they have been around so long (and are now so different from one another), it doesn't really make any sense for us to call all bagged machines "Air-Way copies," but all of the disposable bags are based on the same original design.  And the other water filtration vacuums on the market today besides Rainbow, however loose of a copy they are (separator, non-separator; cheap, expensive, etc.), are still copies of the same basic design invented by Rexair.  Again, I don't mean that in a negative way at all. 

As for cyclonic technology, I know it's been around, but not in the sense that Dyson came up with.  Even though Electrolux, Interstate, etc., touted cyclonic technology, they still needed a filtering medium (cloth bag).  That would eventually clog no matter how well-engineered the machine was.  I would compare those to the current filtered bagless upright and canister machines on the market today...yes, the dirt spins around in the container, but the filter still clogs.  If you were to remove the filter, the cyclonic action itself could not contain the dirt, instead it would naturally go toward the motor.  With the Dyson, you could remove all of the filters and it would not blow dust as the cyclonic action itself contains the dirt.  How many machines could you remove the filter from without loading the motor with dirt and consequently blowing visible dust out the exhaust?  Except for the Dyson (and other machines that have copied the design exactly like the Iridium), you really can't do that.  Just because the cyclonic action is there, doesn't necessarily mean it works.  That really all depends on how fine-tuned the design really is.  I agree with what you said about the Dyson attachments, those could definitely use some improvement.  Aside from the silly air-bleed hole, the DC21's crevice tool is OK, and I like the floor tool, however, the dusting brush and upholstery tool are horrible.  But mediocre attachments has been my main complaint on new machines for a few years; recently it's always been more of a scrub brush than a dusting brush, a short crevice tool, and a ridiculously tiny upholstery tool.  Regarding the Kenmore (my feeling is that the DC21 power nozzle is one of the best there is, even though the Kenmore's is good), the main characteristic of cyclonic machines is that air movement is not impeded.  Even if debris becomes trapped in the shroud area, air movement and filtration shouldn't be affected, especially not with this one since there are the high-efficiency cyclones as well.  In a cyclonic machine, the pre-motor filter never becomes the only filtering medium under normal use conditions.  I've never experienced anything like that with my DC21 during regular use.  However, if someone  "experiments" with one by sucking up a bunch of sheetrock dust, ash, etc., nonstop (like putting the hose into a bucket of ash or Capture fast, without going slowly and letting the machine take in extra air), there's bound to be some (if not a good amount of) dust on the pre-motor filter. Someone who had just bought their first Dyson (a DC18 Slim I believe) wanted to see what it could really do and did just that...sucked up a bunch of sheetrock dust up at once.  The pre-motor filter had a considerable amount of the stuff on there, of course.  Yes, the separation may be good, but it's not perfect.  It's only a Root Cyclone, not a level 3!  However, at no point in time did the suction ever drop off, and this is what this person was trying to accomplish to prove if the Dyson's claims were really true (after all this was the first one he bought...shortly afterward he bought his second new Dyson, a DC21). 

My feeling is that had James Dyson not invented cyclonic separation, Hoover most likely would not have come up with it on their own today...they would continue to use bags as they had been doing.  The problem was that Dyson was taking sales away from the high-end Hoovers...no one was buying the $400 WindTunnel (and later, the WindTunnel 2) anymore.  Hoover needed something to stay competitive (and, in hindsight, stay alive)...so they looked in the direction of their competition and the Fusion design was born.  To me, that machine was a dramatic departure from the others...for a while I did not care for the new Hoovers as even the expensive models still had a cheap "plasticky" feel to them.  The Fusion didn't.  The plastic parts were a different grade, and the telescoping part of the handle was metal.  Definitely an improvement, and ironically that was not the most expensive machine they had (or currently have, as the Mach 3), either.  Of course due to poor management (heading down an already rocky path and lacking innovation as early as the 1990s), Hoover would soon be acquired by TTI, although considering some of the decent TTI-made Hoovers that are out there, I don't think it was necessarily a bad thing.  The HealthyHome did the same thing for the Bissell name (in part due to its $299 price tag), in my opinion, a name commonly associated with cheap cleaners that don't clean and break often. 

What I'm trying to say is that maybe we're on to something here, that because of the copying and trying to make a better machine, the overall quality of new retail-store vacuums is improving.  I honestly believe that they have improved in quality just in the past year.  I bought 3 machines brand new this year, for the first time in over 10 years...and those who know me know that I don't just buy any new machine.  Two of those machines I bought were Wal-Mart machines under $60 (the other was the Dyson DC21 canister), something that I previously would never touch.  And those two Wal-Mart machines have visible metal parts as well, not just the fasteners!  I for one would love nothing better than to finally get out of the "cheap crappy vacuum" stage...it seems that the mid-1990s through the mid-2000s were the worst period for that.  At any rate, things are looking up, and we can only improve from here.

-MH

P.S.  I recently found out that Wal-Mart is no longer selling the GE-labeled dual-cyclonic bagless anymore...any time someone brings one to the register and the cashier rings it up, it says "Do Not Sell."  I wonder why this is?

DC18 wrote: Hi DC18,

Again, I'm surprised that more manufacturers over there have not introduced their own version of the Dyson!  But I guess that would make sense since it seems that Dyson occupies a very large section of the market there/   What really caught my interest, though, is that both you and Trilobite mentioned that Dyson's digital motor is not on any machines over there yet.  I wonder why that is the case, considering the market for Dysons there is so large?  Maybe they don't feel it necessary to introduce new technology when they have already dominated the market?  Interesting...

-MH

Hello Motorhead

Yes it is surprising more haven't followed, but having said that Hoover (UK) and Electrolux have in the passed tried to do there own version of the Dual Cyclone back in the late 90's. 

Prolem is Dyson would alway take them to court for infrigement on his patents (which has expired on the Dual technology a while ago) so probably put them off. 

Now Dyson has moved on to Root technology dual is ok but old technology.  LG and Vax are the only ones really that are doing their version (copies) of the Root Technology. 

 All the other brands seem to be happy to knock out cheap bag and bagless machines for under a £100 or just over leaving mainly Dyson to dominate the higher upper

value of the UK Vacuum market.  I'm surprised the DDM has not made it into the UK market yet, not sure why this is? 

Yes Dyson does dominate the UK market I can't see that being a reason why the DDM has yet to be launched here.  Nothing too major since the DC15 Ball has been launched in the Upright and Canister (cylinder) markets in the UK. 

The DC22 Motorhead in the UK is a new up to date version to the DC05 Motorhead, and the DC18 is a up to date version of the DC03 with the DC15 ball technology made

slimmer and simpler.  Not that there is anything wrong with these new models, they were needed in the model line up.  I'm hoping the DDM will make an appearance in the

UK market in 2008!  Not sure what shape or form when it does appear here in the UK wil it take!  I do feel we are in need of a totally new upright to replace the DC14/07 in the UK although I believe the DC14 is

quite a popular upright model in the UK Dyson range!  The base of this machine (apart from a few changes/improvements with each model) has not changed since the DC04

model and I think it's time for a radical change which could include the DDM!

DC18

Hello,

 < This and other DC22 pics from a Japanese blog (while on blog, click pics to enlarge).  Here.        DIB

Hello DIB

Interesting pictures of the DC22.  Shows close up of the new Root and Core technology! Like the new motorhead that is on the DC22 looks slimmer in height! 

DC18

Hi DIB,

Great new pictures of the DC22, thanks for linking.  Of course you know it makes me even more anxious to see this machine in person and buy one when it's introduced here.  The new low-profile Motorhead does look good; appears to be slightly narrower but still the same basic design as the DC21's Motorhead, which is really one of the best power nozzles I've used in a long time.  To me a gear-driven brushroll is the only way to go now.  As for the low profile, I don't have a problem getting under the bed and other furniture with my 21, but this probably makes it even more of a breeze.

I'm still itching to hear how the DDM sounds on startup and full speed. 

Hello DC18 and Motorhead,

 

Glad you enjoyed my posting/s.  This DC22 looks to be James’ newest weapon.  It should keep his opponents at bay and give

consumers another choice, something needed and new.  Seven years (approx) of hassle free (no pre-motor filter cleaning) is what

the Core technology is and what James is betting on, I’m guessing with a bigger pre-motor filter too.  Today the Dyson copycats even

use James 6 month clean pre filter standard and messaging.  And so there they are, cleaning the filter every 6 months.  I was

wondering just how James was going to sell the Level 3 in the future…  cleaning ever 7 years vs. every 6 months (his old strategy and

his competitors current strategies).  I would expect to see this new strategy (cleaning every 7 years vs. 6 months) in his new uprights too.

The canisters verses uprights look to be more difficult at keeping dust away from the pre filter.  I saw this Core patent a year ago or so,

I took another look recently at the patent, it shows 2 inlets at the “Core” high efficient cone.  But the Dyson Japan site shows only one inlet.

I saw no patents from any of his competitors that use anything interesting or close to James’ “Core” technology.  Certainly there are unseen patent

pending vacs that are not publicly posted.  I am baffled after looking at Dyson Japan and comparing the DDM vs. carbon motored DC22.

This site does not look at all finished, an example is a reference to the DC22 having the Root6 technology as well as phone home capabilities.

I looked hard, and per Dyson Japan the only difference is the warrantees and pricing.  But if you look close to the DDM has an outer ring at

the power button that lights green - clean filter and red for clogged pre filter.  The carbon brush motor DC22 does not have this feature.

 

Re:  Dyson copies.

The Bissell “Healthy Home”, the Dirt Devil “Spinnergy:, the Vax “Zero” are ALL near exact copies.  Claim #7 in one of Dyson’s multi-cyclone

patents narrowly defines the patent and these wonderful companies have exploited and built vacuums around this.  Claim #7 says

"at least 1/2" of the high efficient tapered cone sits inside of bin. - Another Dyson patent claims "cyclone projects into collector" see Claim#10.

Bissell, Dirt Devil and Vax exploited this narrow definition and have just simply put the cyclones on top on the bin! - Ta-da!

Below are Dyson and LG patents.

Dyson patent filing date:  14.09.2001 patent here	LG patent filing date: 17.08.2005  patent here

 

My money is on Dyson.

DIB

Hello DIB

Thanks for posting the patent links to both.  My money is on Dyson too.  I do prefer the new motorhead on the DC22 to the DC21 like Motorhead says it looks slimmer.  Looks like it

has one long brush bar on the picture unlike the DC21 motorhead where the 2 brush bars attach to the geared mountings either side.  I will be interesting to see this Core Seperation

in the new uprights from Dyson.  Although the DC17 with its level 3 sort of answers that question as to how they may go about it!?  I would like them to use something simular to the

DC22 Motorhead on a new upright giving a slimmer cleaner head/body.

Onr thing looking at different pictures and the Dyson Japan Website of the DC22 it doesn't look much bigger than the DC12!  After all they prefer smaller vacuums because of the

limited space they have over there! 

DC18

Hi,

Nobody asked me but . . .

Online shoppers, Sears has a nice price drop AND a discount for those who just must have a Dyson DC21.  However, 9:00  p.m. today is the end of the line.

The price on the DC21 is $474.99 with an additional 10% off "Cyber Monday" discount (-$47.50) AND shipping is free as the order is over $49.00. 
Final cost, not including local sales tax, is about $427.00.  Check it out if your of a mind.

This is not a recommendation of Dyson. It's just that God knows I love a good sale.

Happy shopping and no I don't work for Sears,

Venson

My neighbor was kind enough to translate (best as possible) the wording on this DC22 packaging (below).        DIB

 

1)      30 times better (filtering) than any cyclone vacuum.

2)      Motorhead does not slow down vs.a turbine nozzle.

3)      Updated Root with Core separator.

4)      “About” 7 years, you do not have to touch filter for 7 years.

5)      2 yr. warrantee.

 < This and other DC22 pics from a Japanese blog (while on blog, click pics to enlarge).  Here. 

I had a look at the DC22, its similar size to Dysons previous DC05.  I don't like the DC22 as it has PLASTIC for its telescopic wand not the usual alluminium  (though I never liked the aluminium) I wish Dyson would go back to the steel they used for the first model, seemed better quality.

The plastic finish  the telescope 'handle' looks like poor with some 'flash'  lines.  Its probably a good machine but I really don't like the plastic 'wand'.

Dysons bin capacity is a bit of a joke compared to the older models, my DC04 holds a full 4 litres of dirt, the DC07 hold 3 litres, DC14 hold 2 litres but later models hold a small amounts like 1 plus litres which means more emptying, not that this is difficult just annoying if machine fills whilst in middle of vacuuming.

I have kept with my DC04 and spare DC05 but I not too keen on the later models.   Why does the Shroud take up so much space in the bin in the newer models?

bucks03 wrote:

Thank you for posting your comments on this machine.  I had no idea that plastic was used instead of aluminum on the pipe.  Do you know if the wand weight is lighter than the Stowaway’s?  A lighter weight TW wand was badly needed.  The Stowaway’s TW is heavy, bulky and the handle position directly inline with the axis line of the pipe, making turning the wand much harder than necessary (little or no leverage).

 

I own the DC05 Motorhead and think it is great! – Certainly better and easier to use than my DC21.  The pipe is aluminum with a sister pipe that is plumbed with the electrical, it is very sturdy, easy and fast to adjust to any height.  I believe if Dyson would have instead, introduced the wand and power nozzle off the DC05 versus what came on the DC11, the 11 would have been a winner here in the US.  Dyson just needs to quit over-engineering his stuff (at times).        DIB

HI DysonInventsBig

The plastic that is used for the DC22 TW in my opinion doesn't make the wand feel lighter, the aluminnium used on other models in very lightweight anyway.  To be honest I like a slight heavy solid feel as opposed to the light flimsy feel.

Maybe I'm being fussy but the whole 'feel' of latter Dysons just doesn't feel as good as previous machine,  I don't like the new flat out tools at all.  The Dyson DC05 when first lauched used to be dispacthed with a steel soleplate and wand

from around 2002 / 2003 Dyson started sending with a plastic soleplate and aluminium wand which just didn't feel as good as the previous ones.

Other vacuum cleaners on market are plastic but Dysons are pretty much contructing the while thing from plastic,  I wonder if one day they will just make it clip together with snap on clips, getting rid of screws all together.

I agree the DC05 Motorhead was a good machine, just a shame that there was a problem with the first design of  Motorhead which caused the wires to become exposed when the 'joint' broke but this didn't happen to all users.  Dyson modified this anyway and where good at sending out replacements.

Do you know why Dysons has changed the design on the DC24 and DC25 to have both the filters washable?  My DC04 has liftetime POSTMOTOR  filter as on DC05 which has not been changed in 5 years, it is very black with carbon dust but is still in use with no need to change.  I have noticed through that my DC04 does let some carbon dust out through the exhaust.

Thanks for reading.

bucks03 wrote:

Surprised no dyson admirers answered.  Airblade?  Anything to say?

The largest shrouds I saw are with vacuums of years gone by.

The Lewyt and Filter Queen bagless canns of the 40's.  Tho, I doubt

they called them shrouds.  The full circumference of the vacuums

and probably half the volume of the bottom dirt container.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi

I'm surprised too.  Thought someone would have known the answer to this one.  Do you get where I am coming from, why would a vacuum cleaner manufacturer not make use of the bin capacity, the shroud is so big in Dysons and the MAX mark is rather low down compared to the first generation of UK Dyson in the late 90s.  These are 4 lites and the shroud was never that big but these where DUAL CYCLONE machine.

bucks03 wrote:

Hello Bucks03:

I'm with you.  BTW, Filter Queen and Lewyt

called the shrouds: "Circular shields."  Made of aluminum. 

Paper thin filters called 'cones' [because of their shape] was the

only separation of the shroud from the

dirt.

Carmine D.

IT's more than likely about air movement,Canisters with all the hoses and powerheads attached,the cfm drops [not suction but the speed of the suction].Dyson has to play with shroud location ,shroud size, the smaller diameter the the more static suction is created,sort of like sucking liquid throuh a straw,The machine has to move so much air through it before it can even think about cleaning.Hence ,why it could be called a VACUUM CLEANER.]

Yes the cyclones block after a certain time,i just wish they were easy for the owners to clean ............

MOLE

Sorry guys.  Wish I had an answer for you, but I'm not sure either.

mole wrote:

Mole I understand what you are saying but I am also refering to the Uprights not just the cylinder machines.  Also the shrouds were smaller  on the first models which were able to produce a large amount of scution power, look at The DC07, its shroud isn't that big and it was the most pwerful Dyson in the UK even when they started putting 1200Watt motors as opposed to the 1400Watts they used to use before.  Only Dyson engineers have the answer to this answer. 

I have never encountered a problem with cyclone blocking on my DC04, DC05 or handheld DC16.  The only problem I ever have is that long hair escapes from the cyclone and when I take out the filter there is long hair on it, this isn't an issue.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

I see the mechanisms as different.  Filter Queen and Lewyt's filter paper and/or cellulose cones were intended to be a physical barrier between the fan chamber and the contents of the dust container in lieu of the conventional dust bags they did not employ. Their conical shaped filters allowed more filtering surface than competitors of  similar ilk at the time like Fairfax and Silver King.  Both of those brands employed flat, round filters that fitted between their dust containers and motor units.    The metal cones in the FQ and Lewyt served more to make the conical filters keep their form. 

So-called cyclonic action was employed to help keep dirt off the filter cones by the air swirl produced when air entered the dust container. Air was deflected to the left, at least in Filter Queen, with the intention of keeping dirt collection on the cone to the minimum and suction to the maximum because of the whirling air.  I know from experience that this works for a time but eventually dust, fluff and debris begin to build up behind the deflector eventulally reducing the usable surface area on the filter cone.  This did not prove a serious problem to me as FQ can maintain good suction and clean well nder normal conditions for a good amount of time even if the ideal "cyclonic situation" isn't happening internally.

In true cyclonic bagless vacuums, if there is such a term, the intention is to use the centrifical force of induced air-swirls to fling off the dust and dirt carried into the machine to such a degree that minimal filtering medium is all that's needed to capture dust still in the air stream after it exits the dust container.  As I said, that's the intention but once the shroud begins to collect debris -- fluff, hair, bits of paper, etc. -- cyclonic filtering capability decreases and residual dirt in the air stream after the process increases.  That is why frequent emptying is required AND why I don't necessarily feel that much ahead of the game on way or another due to it.   I'd be glad to see this same technology applied to a portable machine with larger dust capacity than generally available today to help keep the principles used for cyclonics at their optimum with less need for emptying. 

Best,

Venson

You know it really makes me wonder ,after listening and reading about this cyclonic nonsense,my conclusion is that it works as good as a top loading filter bag.

Any Comments....................

MOLE

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

Similar in that today's shroud, as on dysons, separates the large debris in one cyclone

from the 2 nd intermediary and 3rd fine cyclones.  The paper cones serve this purpose in addition

to the perforated conical assembly keeping all the dirt large and small from the motor. Particularly

if the users did not dump the base regularly, which we know is a dyson [bagless vacuum] caveat.

Interestingly, Lewyt [do it] changed to the see thru speed saks in the very early 50's.  And still claimed these

as superior to dust cloth bags. 

BTW, dyson in its product literature claims it's the only true cyclone vacuum.

Carmine D.

bucks03 wrote:

Bucks03;

As I said, I'm with you.  The DC07 perorated shroud is much

smaller than the DC14 and DC15.  The DC17 reverts back to the smaller DC07

shroud and perforations area than the DC14 and DC15.  As I mentioned in the HSN

dyson demo, dyson Dave made sure the the big

debris [cat litter which he suctioned up using the hose] was off the shroud perforations

by leveling off the dirt bin contents.  Then, he proceeded to vacuum up the pet hair in

rug mode and the coffee grinds in bare floor mode.  This maneuver was key to the demo.

Had he not, the intermediary and fine dirt/debris would not have made it to the 2-3 cyclones.

Did you email dyson and ask about the shroud sizes and perforations? 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Mole:

I say NO cyclonic filtration does not work as well as bagged vacuums in household

venues!  Why? Dyson's own rethinking/revising the pre-motor filter maintenance caveats

[from a very cavalier and non-chalant once is enough every 5-6 months to

make sure at least every 3 months to maintain the warranty ] is prima facie evidence

from dyson [IMHO].  Why? 

If more evidence is needed, look at the constant dyson changing in the

cyclones' positions, numbers, shroud configurations and bin sizes.  Why? 

To force the user to make more frequent bin dumping?  Again: The

inevitable Why? 

Which brings me back to BUCKS03's question, point and post.

Carmine D.

O.K. Carmine i understand,,we can only guess as to why they keep playing around with their set ups,2 reasons could be that 

1 they are just spending R@D money to keep the engineers busy.

2 or just cant figure out why this revolutionary [so called], system just does not  work for real customers in real homes in the real world...........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole:

Apparently, dyson slightly reduced/reclassified the job positions of its engineers

since the number has decreased a tad over time.  My sense is that your latter reason is correct. 

Try as it does dyson just can't get the right bagless application.

IMHO that's the reason for the major rethinking/revision in the dyson filter maintenance. 

As long as the warranty was 2 years, it wasn't an issue.  A nebulous passing word of instruction

was adequate.  Saying that cleaning once is enough every 5-6 months unless heavy duty use. 

But with the 5 year dyson warranty, users MUST perform more frequent filter care [read maintenance]

to ensure the 5 years.  And more frequent washings degrade the pre-motor filter performance. 

Meaning more filter replacements over 5 years.  Which are not covered under the warranty.  What do the

filters cost?  $18 plus tax?

What is the advantage of bagless over bagged?  Instead of buying bags, the bagless

users [dyson too] are buying and replacing filters.  And bin dumping more often than changing paper bags.

Plus paying a premium high up front price for it.

Carmine D.

Hi

I have't contacted Dyson with regards to the big shroud design.  I doubt they will disclose why (look at their website) I can't say i'm impressed with the information on their, their brochures don't really go into deils now either.  Dyson used to produce big brochures with quite a bit of info in them the latter ones are only pocket sized booklets with hardly info info in them.

Like I've siad before I am not that keen on the latest generation of machine, they may be more studier but just don't think they have the wow factor now, maybe due to the darker colours!  I dunno why exactly I take a dislike to the newer ones.

I tried out a DC25 in the shop it has a rather set of pathetic cleaning tools as do most of the latest Dyson models, a very small stair tool and brush crevice, unlike the larger more substatial ones on the older modals and again, the SMALL bin capacity which I know will cause inconvencience to some having to empty this halfway through vacuuming their homes, unless Dyson wants the user to vacuum everyday so there is less dirt picked up??

The only reason I can think of why the shroud in bigger on the DC22/23 is due to the new cyclone technology, root plus core seperater.  The root cyclones have there own dust collection and so will the core seperator which all fits inside the the shroud filter. If you think back to the Dual cyclone

there was only ever the cone that sat inside the which was not that big.  Then on the root cyclone again between 7/12 cyclones (depending on the models) that where angled to fit simular size on the cone on the dual.  Now we have 3 stages the shroud has been made bigger to accommerdate

the root and core technology.  Thats my view as to why the shround may be bigger.

I have to agree the bin capacity has come down alot (I can understand for the DC22/24 as they are small models).  The DC25 cound have been at least 2 to 3 litre bin without putting too much extra weight on the machine, after all this modle is for the larger home!   Like bucks03 say the plastic

on later models does look cheap.  The DC23 wand (which I saw in the shops) is not the usually shiney plastic like on the DC21/20 its dull and looks a bit cheap.  Yes I had a new nozzle for my DC05 a few years ago and the metal soleplate had been replaced with plastic.  Standards do not

seem to be carried over to newer models, take the metal soleplate on the DC15.  No where to be found on the DC18/24/25 models.  I agree with you DIB Dyson sometimes does over engineer in places. 

DC18

I happened to see the Dyson Baby (DC22) on display at a store the other day, so went on over to take a closer look. It's certainly smaller than the other Dyson canisters, but hrmmm... not as small as I'd like and presumably not as small as the DC12? Why is this? Has it fallen victim to the root cyclone 'arms race' where more visible cyclones is seen as a good thing? Pffft.. soon it'll be as getting bad as Gillette are with razor blades! Also, the DC22 doesn't  have Core separator - I think?

I noticed what buck03 was saying about the inner part of the wand being plastic, not aluminium. Again, I'd love to know why this is. I guess it's either 1)reduce costs and/or 2)improve reliability but either way it looks cheap in comparison.

Still, not a bad vac and there's nothing else quite like it at the top end. I'm in the progress of moving house at the moment, but I'll likely be looking to buy one in time.

I like the new metallic styling... I'll wasn't too sure of it to begin with, but it makes it look a lot more substantial. I noticed that the other brands (Electrolux) are starting to copy it. Just as in the beginning, they laughed at Dyson's 'crazy' yellow and grey styling, then copied it.

M00seUK wrote:

Hello M00seUK:

Hope all is well with you and yours.

The first bagless upright in the USA

that was yellow and grey and used the moniker

"cyclonic' on the machine is the EUREKA

Whirlwind.  It predates dyson's DC07 by a good

number of years here and there.  EUREKA didn't

sue dyson for copying. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Vortex type suction machines have been using the phrase cyclonic to describe their patent claims since the late 1800's/early 1900's.

Eureka should do everything possible to protect its assets, patents and trademarks from attacks.  The Eureka “Cyclonic” Trademark, can you produce it? 

.

I have the very short (complete or near complete) list of the lawsuits Dyson has filed since launching the DC07 here in the U.S.  Today and in the past you’ve indicated James Dyson is lawsuit hungry.  Can you produce these lawsuits?        DIB

CarmineD wrote:

The first time EUREKA used the yellow and grey colors

was in the early 50's with the Model 910 Roto-Matic.  Old-timers

in the vacuum business recall this canister model.  EUREKA

allowed a free in home trial for customers.  EUREKA's written claim was

it had tremendous suction: 71 cubic feet of air per minute.  According to

EUREKA: " It actually moves far more air than similar cleaners-a true

measure of real cleaning power." Used paper bags in a cloth.

Carmine D.

Hello DIB:

The EUREKA bagless Whirlwind uses

a clear bin too.  So users could see the dirt

and swirling suction action.  Sound familiar?

I believe dyson did the same following EUREKA's

lead.

What do you know about the Kenneth J. versus dyson

lawsuit over the vacuum ball facilitator?  Now that's

an interesting case.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

 

Well I was not expecting a respectful reply, thank you.  Indeed I like a good challenge or strong opinion when it is delivered with respect.

I’ll put some thoughts down and well get back on and off (hopefully) today or tomorrow.        DIB

DIB:

Today is Palm Sunday and the beginning of Holy Week. 

Must make an extra effort to be respective for the Holy Triduum.

Dyson has a host of others who came before to emulate and copy. 

Tho I believe its understanding and appreciation for vacuum history

especially in the USA is very lacking. 

Carmine D.

I have the new Dyson brochures (UK) of the DC22/23 and DC24/25. In the DC22/23 brochure it states both these models have root & core technology.  Although the web (UK site) does not mention the DC22 has this technology!  The web only mentions the DC23 that has root and core technology!

DC18

Heard a bit more info today about the DC23 Motorhead for the US.  It is a slightly larger machine than the DC22 which I didn't realize, I thought it was simply a US DC22 (like what we saw last year when the DC20 and 21 were introduced).  Due to the $899 retail price which we all heard about before, it will only be sold at independent vac shops where it can be demonstrated, to compete with Miele and other high-end brands.  The DDM-equipped DC23 is supposed to pull 165" of water lift and produce 410 CFM of airflow (pretty damn impressive, blows even central vacs out of the water). 

While it is a sister machine to the DC21 for now, I would bet that in the future it will be replacing the DC21 due to the advanced technology.

I want one now...right next to the DC12 ;-)

-MH

Hey Tom/M.H. do you agree that dysons attachments are absolute junk compared to Miele/aerus/electrolux/bosch/ sebo/lindhaus.How many times have you told Jimmy that to be a player in the high end can market they better step it up with excellent attachments.899.00 ?I'm sure these must really be flying off the dealers shelves.

MOLE

mole wrote:
Please stop referring to me as Tom, as I said that is not my name and I do not appreciate it.  Thank you.

When it comes right down to it, no one really uses their small attachments anymore.  That's part of the reason why the small attachments on most vacuums today have become so chintzy in the first place, though there are a few exceptions like you said.  Dyson already has a good crevice tool and an EXCELLENT bare floor tool (with staggered-row bristles in the front reminiscent of a 1950's Kenmore bare floor tool), and that's really all that is used for normal cleaning.  Nowadays when people want to vacuum their upholstery, they either use a small powered hand tool or put the full-sized power nozzle on the couch or chair, and if they want to dust, they generally don't dust with the vacuum and use a cloth or disposable duster instead.  I haven't once *touched* the dusting brush or upholstery tool on my DC21; there's never been a need to so the quality of those doesn't matter to me.

As to your comment about the DC23s flying off dealers' shelves, my answer to that is they can't fly off the shelves as they're not even *on* the shelves yet

-MH

I've inspected the DC22 (UK) both models. First thing I will say is how heavy it is for the size it is!  Even with out the wand wrapped around it!  Very small, samller than the DC05 (UK) from years back, but slightly wider in width but smaller in length!

Both models have plastic tubes on the telescope wand, not sure if I personally like this, prefer the wand on the other models. Although looking at the pictures on this post the Japan model doesn't use plastic tubes!  There is a new air driven brush/turbo head

like the Japan but with normal brushes on the brush bar!  The nozzle pivots slighly like the upright models do (DC07/DC14). The animal comes with a new small version of this too.  The base model has a small version of the new 'flat out tool'.  Both modles have the root and core technology.  On opening up the bin the

root and core cyclones both share one big rubber gasket seal but the collection for both is separated. The Shroud filter is very close to the out bin container unlike other models.  This range also uses a slight wider diameter hose than previous dyson canisters. 

Another thing which has been commented on is the hose connection tot he wand is fixed and does nto pivot like previous models!   I do think Dyson should have used the DDM on the UK version of this!

Not had a change to use one yet but I have the new DC24 and 25 which I will post details on the DC24/25 thread!

DC18

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Here is James Dyson’s dual cyclone w/clear bin U.S. patent - filed in 1984.

.

Here and below is my Fantom Capture upright/dry shampooer, James’ 1^st licensed American dual cyclonic w/clear bin and

U.S. patent - filed in 1988.   It is my understanding that no other manufacturer pre-dates James’ clear bin.  A clear sight glass yes, a clear bin no.

If any collectors know of any clear binned vacuum that pre-dates James’ clear bin I’d like to see it (post here).        DIB

.

Note:  Amway using Bissell as a manufacturer stole James' dual cyclonic and had on the U.S. market in 1990

(per James Dyson autobiography – “Against the Odds”)  Read of it here

.

DC18 wrote:

Carmine,

Here is James Dyson’s dual cyclone w/clear bin U.S. patent - filed in 1984.

.

Here and below is my Fantom Capture upright/dry shampooer, James’ 1^st licensed American dual cyclonic w/clear bin and

U.S. patent - filed in 1987.   It is my understanding that no other manufacturer pre-dates James’ clear bin.  A clear sight glass yes, a clear bin no.

If any collectors know of any clear binned vacuum that pre-dates James’ clear bin I’d like to see it (post here).        DIB

.

Note:  Amway using Bissell as a manufacturer stole James' dual cyclonic and had on the U.S. market in 1990

(per James Dyson autobiography – “Against the Odds”)  Read of it here

Hello DIB:

Eureka's first bagless upright, called the Whirlwind "cyclonic" 

that was mass marketed in the USA was a single cyclone, not dual cyclone

like dyson.

WRT to the first clear dust bin, I mentioned recently that Regina used a

clear plastic dust cup on its later Electrik Brooms [probably late 1960's early 1970's]. 

So users could see the dirt in the cup for dumping.

Also Lewyt canisters, which were bagless and then went bagged in the

mid 1950's, used a paper bag called the Speed Sak that had a clear see thru panel

that extended the entire length of the bag.  So users didn't have to quess if

the bag needed to be replaced.  

Most if not all of the floor washers and scrubbers of the 1960's and 1970's used clear/cloudy

see thru plastic water tanks so users could see the levels of clean/dirty water

solutions.

Name brand canisters in the 1970's, like Sears, used clear see thru plastic covers for the tops

of the on-board tool storage so users could see that all the tools were present and properly

stored.

The application of clear/see-thru floorcare bins, bags, tanks and covers is not unique

to any particular vacuum brand, make, and/or model like dyson/dyson bagless vacuums.  Their

usage has a long and storied history in the vacuum/floorcare industry in the USA dating

back several decades before Mr. Dyson.

Carmine D.

Hi bucks03

Not sure what plastic Dyson is using on the DC22 to be honest.  I don't like the look of the telescope wand when it is extended, the platic makes it look 'cheap'!!

DC18

Hello DIB:

Eureka's first bagless upright, called the Whirlwind "cyclonic" 

that was mass marketed in the USA was a single cyclone, not dual cyclone

like dyson.

 

Carmine,

Re: Whirlwind Cyclonic.  Since Eureka abandoned it, it must be assumed as a mechanical failure.  It filtered probably no better than today’s so called bagless cyclonic, Dyson-looking but not Dyson-filtering vacuums.

 

WRT to the first clear dust bin, I mentioned recently that Regina used a

clear plastic dust cup on its later Electrik Brooms [probably late 1960's early 1970's]. 

So users could see the dirt in the cup for dumping.

 

So it is settled, Regina fathered the clear dust cup and Dyson fathered the clear cyclonic collector.

Today manufactures have and will continue to profit perhaps in the hundreds of millions of dollars

by copying James’ clear cyclonic collector innovation.  Is the Regina dust cup being copied

or nearly exactly copied by many (as Dyson competitors are doing to Dyson)?

 

Also Lewyt canisters, which were bagless and then went bagged in the

mid 1950's, used a paper bag called the Speed Sak that had a clear see thru panel

that extended the entire length of the bag.  So users didn't have to quess if

the bag needed to be replaced.  

Most if not all of the floor washers and scrubbers of the 1960's and 1970's used clear/cloudy

see thru plastic water tanks so users could see the levels of clean/dirty water

solutions.

Name brand canisters in the 1970's, like Sears, used clear see thru plastic covers for the tops

of the on-board tool storage so users could see that all the tools were present and properly

stored.

The application of clear/see-thru floorcare bins, bags, tanks and covers is not unique

to any particular vacuum brand, make, and/or model like dyson/dyson bagless vacuums.  Their

usage has a long and storied history in the vacuum/floorcare industry in the USA dating back several

 

…But “the suits” weren’t smart enough or inventive enough to see profits in making a clear cyclonic container. 

The “suits” were too busy dictating to the public what their definition of innovation was.  And not profiting from bag sales,

turned out to be way to much for the inventive inept “suits” to get their heads around.        DIB

DIB:

My response was not to prove/disprove a maker's first and unique use of

a particular technology/feature and/or application thereof.  I named a few that

came to mind and have since thought of others.  The vacuum industry

is over 100 years old.  Most of the vacuum features and technology over the

years have been used, reused, copied, improved, expanded, embellished

and fine tuned.  That's what happens over time.  It's called progress.

The first map of the world was based on the best knowledge and technology

gathered by the persons who explored and made maps at the time.  We don't hold

onto them forever.  Over time the knowledge increases, the technology improves and

the maps get better and are improved.  We don't keep and use the same maps for tradition's sake.

We make and use better maps based on more definitive information and experience of the persons

who came after.  Vacuums are the same.  They get better over time in form and function.  We would

be foolish to think that a decades old EUREKA Whirlwind bagless is the best for today's environment

and better than what has come after.  

Carmine D.

 

Hello Carmine,

.

Understood!  In the past you have been on the anti-Dyson war-path and have even come after me or others who enjoy Dyson’s accomplishments.

Glad this was not one of those times.  Hearing you write Mr. Dyson versus jadee or “Big Bird” has been a nice change too.

Challenges, although, is what keeps things interesting.  Keep the challenges coming.

.

The NIH attitude form vacuum manufactures has hurt themselves for sure.

.

Take a look at 2 very old cyclonic separators and vacuums.  In particular, the 2 stage train vacuum filtration was most advanced.  Here and here.        DIB

DIB:

EUREKA has moved away from the clear plastic see-thru dirt bins.

The latest EUREKA Capture models which are now a year old

use plastic dirt bins that are tinted colors to compliment the colors of the vacuum.

Still see thru and functional.  I personally like this feature from an appearance

point of view.  Tinted matching colors are much more pleasing to the eye 

than the unsightly dirty clear plastic dirt bins.   I would imagine most vacuum

buyers and users would agree with me.  Retailers too.

How long will it be for other vacuum brands to follow EUREKA's lead? 

http://www.eureka.com/

Carmine D.

WOW,im impressed,tinted bins,what will they think of next., how about an onboard am/fm 12 disc cd player with a gps system just so you know where the housecleaner is at all times.Would it come with ONSTAR free for 1 year?.
Question for the day,how come it takes 3 months to get a telescopic wand for an oxygen,im sure that the customer must be thrilled to death about not being able to use her vacuum for 3 months..............

CUSTOMER SERVICE IS NOW WORSE THAN EVER,DOES ANYONE IN THIS BUSINESS CARE ANYMORE,OR IS IT JUST GET THE MONEY AND MOVE ON TO THE NEXT SCAM......................

 MOLE............................................................

Hello Mole:

Sounds dismal.  I would never let a regular customer

wait 3 months for a part.  NEVER.  I'd sooner take it off another

one of mine and accomodate the customer while I

waited for the parts.  I can honestly say in the 40 plus years of vacuum business

[including a warranty EUREKA dealer] I never waited that long

for a part.  NEVER.  A few weeks back order delay was the tops.  I always had

parts in stock, especially wands, to carry me over during the wait time.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:
Only 3 months?  Geez, that's pretty good.  I've had stuff on back order thru Panasonic that has taken almost 6 months to get.  Manufacturers are more concerned with getting whole goods to the market than they are parts and supplies.  Sadly, this just works in favour of the big box stores because they'll just take a unit back if there is an issue and write it off where as the small independant has to either take parts off their own machine or patiently wait while the customer takes a strip off them.

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote: Here is a year old post, where I asked my Japanese neighbor to translate from the Dyson packaging...  [up to] 7 years until filter (pre-filter) cleaning.        DIB

Wait! So the DC22 is now here in the US?

Acerone wrote:
Hi Acerone,

Iy appears to be released for sale as there are two online vendors who are offering it at $800. However, only the more standard size DC23 has a page at www.dyson.com. (Price is $600.)

Enter "Dyson DC22" at either www.nextag.com or www.pricegrabber.com.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Thanks Venson.

Carmine D.

Wow, so the DC21 was phased out after all (I assume since it's no longer on the Dyson site), and not a moment too soon. The DC23 is far superior.

Looks like we have our first Dyson digital motor. Now where can I see one of these in person? And it's up on Dyson.com website now.

Acerone wrote:

Gone is dyson's DC21 stowaway. 

Carmine D.

Hi Acerone,

Since you mentioned, I did a quick look but didn't make any significant sightings. BestBuy has picked up the DC23 the standard canister with 13-inch PN. Sears seems to be doing all it can ot move what its already got like its own new canister and also the Dyson DC21. And I can't imagine an $800 vacuum turning up in the local K-Mart. I think there may be a noticable amount of time to pass before the little DC22 shows up. It is expensive and, I think, unless put on the shelves by some high-end venfor likw William Sonoma, Sharper Image (nearly gone I believe) it's going to be difficult to persuade even big boxers to put these out.

Carmine, don't all the bigger vacuum manufacturers now have a minimum order quantity? Meaning that you can't just buy a few to test the waters saleswise.

I'd also guess that there are enough DC21 models still in stock that those looking for one won't have to worry.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

In good sales times, the vacuum producers through their sales reps discourage selling one/two new pieces to dealers by charging high prices.  Making it more attractive to go with an order of 3-6 per model.  In these current times, not so much.  A sale is sale even in small one/two numbers.  Usually a sales rep will pick up a new model from one of his/her bigger dealers and sell to the smaller dealer [and make it worth while for buyer and seller].

Carmine D. 

Hi,

It's about 4:15 p.m. and I just did a tour of duty at my local BestBuy and Costco. Nothing much is going on. The Dysons of the day at BestBuy remain the two "$#%*" and one clutchless model, DC14 I believe of which they have six or eight boxes each. A few other Dysons, one can and some uprights are being sold as "open box" items for $199 each. This is a joke of course because all of the cleaners have been used and left dirty. (Look like vacuums used for cleaning the store.) The two Platinum uprights are still at the back of the line and not in plain view.

Costco is showing little, as usual, and the "stars" of the day -- the self-propelled Hoover (still $189)and its bagless line partner ($128 approx.)-- are about it.

Best,

Venson

Hi Venson:

In the current economic malaise, high priced vacuums are an afterthought by most big box retailers and shoppers.

The BEST BUY open box items usually get marked down weekly if they don't sell.  Good time/way to pick up a $500

MSRP vacuum for $50, as is.  Got my eye on a few at my local BEST BUY.  Great for donations and gifts.

Carmine D.

As someone has already reported... The DC22 has been removed from Dyson.com website...

It's now back on the website along with the Animal model...

Acerone wrote:

Thanks Ace. 

Anyone know the reason that the air watts on dyson's DC23 is 220 for USA model and 251 [constant] for UK model? 

Recently I noted dyson's DC19 T2 on the UK cite was 280 air watts.  DC22 for USA shows 230 air watts. 

DC11 was 275 air watts. 

Very confusing air watt numbers for these dyson canister models.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Agreed.

More so when I'm sure I read years ago, that the 'all singing, all dancing' Dyson Digital Motor was supposed to generate one third MORE suction power than existing motors. Clearly the motor is incapable of such a feat, for if it had, the US DC22 would surely be around the 300 air Watts mark.

Trilobite wrote:

The dyson claim appears to have evolved to mean energy efficiency [as in less power usage?] as opposed to air watts [suction power]?  I have to wonder if the dyson digital motor will be to the vacuum industry what the Chevy Vega aluminum block engine was to the automobile industry.  A nice try but no cigar.

Carmine D.

The Dyson digital motor

“It’s incredible that electric motors have changed so little since they were first invented, 180 years ago.

Dyson engineers have done away with outdated, energy-hungry components. Ten years in the making, our digital motors are faster, more power-efficient and much cleaner.”

CarmineD wrote: in reality who really cares about  a power efficient vacuum ....as long as it has great power ..suction. ..high quality hepa filtering , decent noise level..package that and the public will take it, buy it ...reguardless of the amount of energy it uses, the vast majority of the people want pure power...a vacuum that does what its supposed to do....at a decent price......example-a  90$  HOOVER TEMPO will hang with or out do any DYSON ..all day long..everytime.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi "turtle1"

Conspicuously absent from the latest dyson claim about its digital motor is comparable suction power to the traditional industry armature/brush motor.  

To truly be worthy of the premium price paid, dyson's motor claim has to include this equality not just in words but in actions. 

Vacuum consumers will sacrifice energy efficiency and cleaner exhaust for more suction power at a lower price.  

This appears true for vehicles too.  Hybrids are generally viewed as not worth the premium over gas cars.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: power sells....and from all the hype i among many others thought  or were led to believe by sir james that this was to be the untouchable motor...power far beyond the norm.....10 years and a 90$ tempo shows you how its done....just a little dirtier...soon the comp will take this motor..study it and make it a true powerhouse....thats what has worked for the imports...take it and make it better..the only difference here is dyson foots the bill....and someone else makes it what it should have been in the first place....and then sell it in a unit @ a 1/4 of the price of a dyson......kinda like now.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Same thing has happened with vac sales.  Big box stores sell cheaper than indepentents, have what you want in stock, give satisfaction return policy.  You can get an extented waranty that will get the vac replaced if problem is serious.  Or you can take to an indy for warranty repairs.  BUY AT THE BIG BOX STORES.

HARDSELL wrote:

A very common but false perception about the convenience of big box store vacuum purchases.  It ends when the product is faulty after the 30 day customer return period.

The truth is that big box stores sell "cheaper" quality vacuums than the independent vacuum stores. 

Given the chance, independent vacuum store owners and operators will match or beat the prices of big box store brand vacuums.  And offer better quality vacuum products than the big box stores.

Big box stores only sell.  Customers have to take their new vacuum purchases, inside of warranty, to an authorized dealer when the products fail.  It's a crap shoot.  Big box stores sell product replacement plans if customers want to shell out more money at time of purchase.   A money maker for big box stores just as most extended warranties. 

Definitely not worth the money.

If the customer can't find a local authorized store willing and/or able to repair the product under warranty, the customer has to ship the vacuum back to the brand maker for resolution.  Oftentimes, paying the hefty costs for shipping and handling up front and left without a vacuum for 2-3 weeks.  Then, hope the right vacuum gets returned............properly repaired.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Footnote:  Why is it a crapshoot?

A customer buys a new $500 plus vacuum from a big box store.  It fails after 6 months and under warranty.  The retailer tells the customer to ship it back to the brand maker clear across the country and/or take it to a authorized dealer for the brand.  It's a crap shoot either way.  Why?

If I'm the authorized dealer, and I don't like the product model, I'll fix it and get reimbursed by the maker for the parts and my time.  Maybe.

More likely, I'll tell the customer I don't like the product model.  Since the customer shelled out $500 plus and has a problem, he/she is already disgruntled.  And will probably seek out other alternatives and avenues of resolution.  More than likely, a trade in for a dealer sold make and model. 

Else ship it back, pay the freight, wait the time, be without and hope for the best.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

The truth is that big box stores sell "cheaper" quality vacuums than the independent vacuum stores. 

Such as?

Given the chance, independent vacuum store owners and operators will match or beat the prices of big box store brand vacuums.  And offer better quality vacuum products than the big box stores.

Maybe and maybe not better price.  Better quality as in expensive import brands?  Indys do not get better quality on the same model as in BB stores.

Big box stores only sell.  Customers have to take their new vacuum purchases, inside of warranty, to an authorized dealer when the products fail.  It's a crap shoot.  Big box stores sell product replacement plans if customers want to shell out more money at time of purchase.   A money maker for big box stores just as most extended warranties.  Definitely not worth the money.

It is a crap shoot when you go into an indy store.  They will wiggle to make it look as if the user is the problem.  What is the difference in an authorized dealer for a BB store and an indy.  Both require a trip to the business.  The extended warranty is very inexpensive when you consider it covers parts and labor.  It also is for a longer time than the factory warranty from the indy.  It also can cover accidental damage.  Indys make money after the warranty by selling services and parts not needed.   I bet you wish you had more warranty on your plasma that failed prematurely.

If the customer can't find a local authorized store willing and/or able to repair the product under warranty, the customer has to ship the vacuum back to the brand maker for resolution.  Oftentimes, paying the hefty costs for shipping and handling up front and left without a vacuum for 2-3 weeks.  Then, hope the right vacuum gets returned............properly repaired.

The store has to provide a service center and they will ship back if necessary.  No shipping charge in warranty.  Most indys take 2 or 3 weeks to repair also and you will be luck if it is done right.

Carmine D.

Your circumstances are always different than anyone else's. No need to proceed with this. 

One last question.  Where are you buying all your hoovers.?

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

you would really tell the customer you didnt like the product they have and thats why you dont want to do the service work...even when they come in saying they were told to bring it here for warranty work..because you are a  x service center...and that the 500$ they spent is worthless now....im not seeing a sale or trade in ...in the picture here,..i see a very pissed off customer..a scene ..ummm ...id never critisize your cust service  exp....but i think this is one of those times where its ok to lie....very ok...we hate working on and dealing with dyson in every way....only when things are dead slo do we bother with them....but its easier to lie to the dyson customer and send them on their way to deal with what dyson made.....because dyson owners dont want to hear or see the truth about what they just bought and what the 90$ tempo in the showroom can do to a dyson....no offense to dyson owners,,,,just a view.

retardturtle1 wrote:

No, HS, I wouldn't have to say I did/didn't like the product.  The customer will say. 

If the customer likes it, do the warranty work get paid.  A NEW CUSTOMER.

If not, trade it in.   A NEW CUSTOMER and a rebuilt for resale 

If the customer is undedecided, let them look around.

Test out a few of the latest and greatest, and then make them a deal. 

If they go, fine if not fine.  A NEW CUSTOMER.

Beats the alternative. 

Shipping it back across country.

Paying the shipping cost hoping to get reimbursed and not taken.

Having to wait for 2-3 weeks without a vacuum and then when its received hoping its repaired properly. 

If not, they're back in your store.  A NEW CUSTOMER.

The business philosophy of the independent vacuum cleaner owners and operators is simple: Pay me now, or pay me later.  A NEW CUSTOMER.

Are you beginning to see why the ORECK business model beats your fave brand. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
If you do not live in a major metropolitan area the Oreck business model is no better than Wal Mart.  I have not found an indy with less than 2-3 week turn around.  Nothing you said resembles my experiences with indys.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

i wasnt trying to offend or insult you in any way...guess i misunderstood.....sorry about that.....but the long turnaround comes from having to wait on the manufacturer to send parts ..if in stock....finish whats ahead..then start on repair...if correct part was sent...it happens all the time.

retardturtle1 wrote:

No umbrage taken, HS.

My point, among others, is that the vacuum store owners and operators are the first line of defense for dyson warranty.

In most cases the dyson customers are irate because they paid $500 plus in the bbs and didn't get their money's worth.

Who gets the customer ventings and emotional tirades: You got it!  Vacuum cleaner store owners and operators.

Any wonder the vacuum stores have not embraced dyson products?

BBS make the sales and profits, big bucks for bbs and dyson, and vacuum stores do the dirty work [no pun intended].

Now back to the DDM 22 for $700-$800.  Who will be the likely retail venues for these new dyson canns?

What are your thoughts on the latest DDM canns?  Do you think US/Can canister vacuum customers will embrace them?

Or look passed them for more suction powered products at lower prices?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: hi carmine

first lets look at the facts...700-800$ for a dyson...are you kidding me...                                                                                                                                                                                      not even as a combo set w/ his newest upright...and at the moment there are 2 popular combo sets already on the market ,at about a 1/3 to 1/2 the price that dyson cant touch .....never could. ...be hard pressed to get WALLY WORLD to put one of these on the shelf and display it proudly with a ' smiley face rollback price card' at that price....or any bbx store at that.....i mean look what problems they [consumer] had when they try to take it back or had to deal with dysons 'no help line'..then sent to take it to a vacuum store that isnt a service center and doesnt want anything to do with a dyson...that has told dyson not to send us your customers...yet do it anyway...all these problems they got for the first 500$ bucks they spent...and now all the same problems are availiable at $800....might as well BEND OVER...cause sir james has a new vac out....because only a select few will buy...collectors ,bored housewives with money to blow..ect...most if not all who owned one before are/were pissed off at the money they wasted on the dyson they bought wont be back  and nobody we know  in the vac biz.. wants to be a dyson svc/center ...one BEND OVER SESSION was enough....alot of our newer customers..some old ones are dyson victims..now have a nice hi power vacuum..at an affordable price w/ excellent customer service...excellent warr....and when you call you get someone who really knows what they are talking about...and doesnt mind answering your questions....takes care of you because thats what you get when you buy from a vacuum store...SERVICE AFTER THE SALE..AND BEYOND...when you buy from us..your getting the best...thats what you get when im at work...if i dont have an answer for your question...ill get you one that day no matter what....$700-800 FOR A DYSON....at that price point its  A TRAIN WRECK ON ITS WAY TO HAPPENING. ..plain and simple.        i respect the man and his ideas...great inventor  a good man....but his products are not worth the money....all show and no go.

Comparing the UK DC22 to the US DC22, I see that the US model has MORE suction power, 30 air Watts more.

This will be down to the US DC22 having the Mark I Digital motor  and it spinning faster.

However, I see that the US Mark I motor spins only at 88,000 revolutions per minute; The DDM was originally supposed to spin at 100,000 rpm.

I also note that the Mark II motor as fitted to UK DC30 & 31, spins at 104,000rpm.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'turtle1'

The smaller, less powerful [230 a/w and 4,500 RPM for brush roll], and much more expensive dyson canister [aka DDM 22] is DOA. 

VDTA didn't even give it a tepid reception.  More like no reception at all.  So far, vacuum stores are doing the same.

BBS will not sell this model at $700-$800.  Too much for their sales venues.  Even at $500-$600, the DDM DC22 is a hardsell.

Dyson will have to pull a rabbit out of the hat on this one to spark sales.  Perhaps a lifetime warranty on the motor?

Carmine D.

Trilobite wrote:

Thanks Trilobite.  Not much suction power: 230 a/w US and 200 a/w UK. 

Motor RPM is probably not as important as brush roll RPM's.  On the DDM22 US only 4,500.  Even ORECK with a 4 amper

revolves its brush roll at 6500.  And for alot less $.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

He already did...  although for some reason Dyson is not celebrating or marketing the DDM DC22 like it could/should.

The DDM DC22 (aka patented and exclusive only to Dyson) vacuum measures 10 (out of 10, Kirby-like) on the Baird meter and remains a 10 (no drop in suction, unlike a Kirby/or anyone) for 4, 5, 6, or 7 years.  No sack-N-choke filter/manufacturer comes close!  No other multi-cyclonic/manufacturer comes close!

Although you give much weight to the VDTA, the VDTA, not Dyson’s radical breakthroughs are DOA.  My guess is...   less than 1% of the U.S. population has ever heard of the VDTA and this is why it is not covered in the news (large or small).


DIB

I say Dyson is dumbing down their advertised airwatts (and filtering abilities too) on the DC22 Motorhead.  The DC22 turbo nozzle with it’s air leak gets the same airwatts as the Motorhead?  How?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

 if the dealers dont carry the $700-800 dyson then who will? hard to almost impossible to find a dealer/svc  center                                                                     

  and no bbx retailer wants a bunch of  $700-800  dysons that wont sell sitting on a shelf....most people dont forget

and wont forget their dealings with dyson and its lack of dealer/svc center  support...not to mention the money spent

on the purchase of it..or the crap service you get from where it was bought...bbx retailer...once youve paid...you no longer matter.

not all dealers are alike..some really suck..crooks....and some really want that new customer to be a long time happy customer.

his prices are way out of reach for most...not realistic for the current economy...dyson is a $200-250 bagless vac at best.,,,

$300 for the ddm version....if his claims are true this time,...at those prices i can see alot more dealer support/cust loyalty

to the brand.....dysons riding the wave with its flagship ddm dc-22......problem is that  his flagship is the TITANIC.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

You, not me, heralded the DDM DC22 launch at the FEB 2009 VDTA here.  Now you play it down.

You, not me,  boasted little filter maintenance/costs.  Now you play it down.

http://www.abbysguide.com/vacuum/discussions/36196-0-1.html

Dyson and its supporters, like you, brag about air watts.  Now you play it down.

New dyson suction measure [really very old old vacuum school] is the baird meter.  No proof.  

You compare a new dyson cann to a KIRBY upright which has no tools on board!    ?????

The only "dumbing down" here DIB is dyson and its cheering squadron. 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1"

Agree.  It's sunk in the US market. 

Likely, dyson reprices this DDM DC22 to $400/$500, retailers discount 20%/more and it's still a niche seller, at best.

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:
Hoover was like the famous battle ship Bismark.  We know who sunk her don't we?

HARDSELL wrote:

you can take the new DDM CAN " dysons finest vac to date..vs a W/TNL bagless can ..run it thru any and all tests

 ..post results side by side ....along with price so the public can see first hand and up close what they really get for their money....

it will show a very durable $180 hvr meet and out perform the high dollar dyson all day long...and will outsell the dyson all day long by a vast majority

...just like in years past....and save at least $500....so the few that still bought the dyson got what for the the $500?

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'Turtle1"

I agree.  Careful .........one of us will be attacked for thinking like the other!  OMG!!!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

hahaha....i just go by customer  feed back...what i see/hear  at the shop..torture testing ..so it is what it is.

i mean were not the ones who are charging $800 for a $300 vacuum..[attack them]...that was bested by a tempo...

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

Dyson product prices are and will continue their downward trends. 

Once very protective of MAP [broke off contract with Wal*Mart for lowering DC07 prices to $309 in 2005],

dyson allows all big box retail stores to advertise and sell 20-30 percent below MSRP now-a-days.  

Dyson does it on its own Web site [27 percent]. 

The downward spiraling of dyson prices in the USA by BBS is well underway.

No great shakes.  As you say, dysons are $200-$300 vacuums tops.

And even then, there are vacuums under $100 that outperform.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

i couldnt agree more [tempo] . and all the people who once bought dysons are seeing thru all the hype and clever advertising

realizing that a $100  vacuum will outperform what  they were convinced was the best....has turned into a name  [dyson]

that is more trouble to own and keep up than its worth....if he wants to unload that inventory he has no choice but to keep them prices

coming way down....and even at $200 hes still getting outperformed by a far less expensive model...no matter what  type  upright/can

dyson has ,,the compitition has a far less expensive model that will outperfom it. .. customers will buy them up......and feel good abt it.

$300..at best? for now yes...but at that price point the compitition will only get worse for dyson,,as the comp will  also drop price...like i said

TITANIC

retardturtle1 wrote:

Have you ever had any experience with a high end vac?  It seems as if your experience is with cheap Tempos or other cheap hoovers.

Remember what I said about the Bismark.

HARDSELL wrote:

yes sir...from time to time i have...nowhere near what you gentlemen have ...but at the moment its the tempos and the other cheap hoovers that are outperforming the dysons

....so none of the higher end vacs are needed....the hoovers seem to have it covered... but the hoovers and other cheap vacs

are used as a simple comparison...as in bang for the buck....consumer opinion/feedback....simple questions asked to the avg dyson owner.

or questions asked by consumers...why does my $100 cheap tempo last as long -meet or exceed a dyson in performance

 for less than a 1/4 of the price of a dyson ...?...and why are dysons so expensive....it has $100 worth of performance...

wheres the rest of the money go?...numerous real world tests have proven the cheaper ones  meet or exceed dysons performance.

the above questions are fair to ask...we agree to disagree/ freedom to have opposite opinions...and dyson has been given credit where credit was do.

HARDSELL wrote:

We all, save you HS, understand "BISMARK" to mean that HOOVER always sets the top mark for the competition in the biz.  The gold standard of carpet cleaning at a mere fraction of gold's cost.  You can gold coat your fave brand and charge gold prices but in the end its a mediocre performer at best.  Jump ship while you can HS, dyson's ship is sinking fast.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

ill help too....we have plenty of room on  'the other side' ....just follow the light.......SIR JAMES  and his  DUSTBUSTER can come too..

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi turtle1:

He should take along 5 or 6 of those dustbusters, which he can't be sure does/doesn't have

a post motor filter.  Just in case he doesn't get a genuine 10 minutes run time from one/more.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Remembet the Brits sunk the Bismark.  Then they sunk Hoover.  I told you numerous times to get in the life boat.  You kept grasping at all those new life boats from Hoover and they sunk.  Good that you found the Oreck and stayed afloat. I am not disagreeing on the latest Dysons.  Remember I have said all along that they are following in the path of Hoover.  I find it amusing that thousands of actual users give the highest ratings to Dyson.  It is the indys of current and past that dislike Dyson because they can't profit from them.

If all those other brands were so great the repair shops would have to close for lack of work.

HARDSELL wrote:

Sadly your vacuum judgment is flawed by those rose colored dyson glasses you're still wearing. 

Take them off. The DC07 is 6 years old now and dead in the water.  Never to swim again.   

All the wealth that James btained from the DC07 has been slowly eroded and undone on all the R&D

and unprofitabilty of all the dysons after.

I mentioned this to you several years ago [Januray 2007] when you were shopping for the Electrolux Intensity. 

It has come to pass HS.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Please try to follow what I say Carmine.  Your reply to my post is as usual.  Not related to what I said. 

I may have asked a question about the Intensity, however it was never a consideration for purchase.  Again, if you have to comment stay with what I say please.

CarmineD wrote:

of corse a proffit was made...$250-300  above its worth...and what was left over after all the previous models, was

used to develop a super clean vacuum....highest ratings among its users....but thats until it breaks down and it cant get fixed.

..or they have deal with their no help line...

...once they begin to research and learn about whats out there they soon realize that they can

have a better performer at hundreds and hundreds less.  with numerous places to service it at that....the public wants

 a simple hi-power vac  and dont care abt a little dirty air to get it ...same quality,more power....hundreds below dyson.

..its been that way for years...and sill is... ..no dysons in a vac shop is'   freedom of choice.' .plain and simple.

..more trouble than they are worth....you can make double or triple the money putting something else in its place

in the showroom....for far less money......a dyson is a collectors item...nothing more...just like that hoover z in our store..

...wasted space. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Yes, HS I recall your question and I answered you. 

I note that you followed my advice on the Electrolux Intensity.

I also opined at the time that dyson was spreading his resources too thin by attacking too

many non-vacuum related unprofitable ventures at the expense of vacuums. 

I sais it would eventually do dyson in.

As I recall, you agreed with me.  One of the few times you were not distracted by dyson colored glasses.

Carmine D.

PS:

I also recall you asked me a question about the desirability of a BISSELL carpet sweeper, age and price. 

$50 was the price.

I answered that question for you too.

January 2007.  Not bad for an old vacuum man!

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi turtle1:

But there is a significant difference between dyson and HOOVER collectibles. 

The HOOVER's actually work well in addition to being a collector's item. 

Carmine D

CarmineD wrote:

As well as when new.  Which wasn't as good as Dyson which is excellent.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Retard,  exactly how did you test the Dyson against those cheap vac to determine that they are better performers?

Please share your experiences in using a Dyson in your home.

If all the other brands are so good why is it that the shops make a good living since they do not service Dysons.  What the hell do you repair?

Do you really think that Oreck should have so many vacs.  Really, how much difference in the cheapest and highest priced one.  Do you think an Oreck is worth $800?

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

quite a few differences indeed.....then and  now...just ask or listen to the consumer/collector . .and in relation to dyson..i should have said  'a novelty'

 ive never tried to use the Z as we have only the one....a classic and a collector it is...but i see a spot for something new ..something i can show off....talk about...and

hopefully sell.....

retardturtle1 wrote:

Well said turtle1.  Dyson was a novelty vacuum [read bagless].  What happens to novelties when they are beat up by the competition.  The novelty wears off.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

btw.....didnt the TITANIC  run out of lifeboats?.....a ton of people left behind on a sinking ship....

retardturtle1 wrote:

Yes, indeed.  Those that were last in line for the life boats, didn't make it. 

They went down with the ship.  

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Well  Mr.Hardsell    we at the shop have used it in every way..full clean-ups ..clean-outs..spring cleaning....

repair room clean-ups 5 different people at various times during the day....months at a time...torture tests out back..

.dumping customers full bags onto various types of carpet and surfaces....pushed to the limit....and back....

weve done this on quite a few vacs over the years.....so our testing at the shop is fair ....and accurate...

how it performs and maintanence to keep it up to par determines if it gets ordered for the shop or not...

and at times they do come home with us after a full service claen-up.....thats one way its done.

NEXT- CONSUMER REPORTS

NEXT-the dyson owner ....what they like/dislike...changes?....gripes about the CSR....long hold times....to unanswered questions.

abt 1 in 5 like or love their dyson.....the rest dump it for another brand.

NEXT- other owner/operators...what they think....and why...what do their dyson customers have to say...ect.

shops make money in different ways...we service and maintain alot of comm. eqip..

..from carpet servcs to cleaning servcs...city and county contracts...in addition to sales -service-parts....to the public and city/county.

ORECK-as i have stated before...i do feel they are priced out of reach on the platinum series....no vacuum is worth $800..period.

orecks have stood the test of time and proven themselves to be one of the most reliable/durable vacuums ever made....well worth $200-400

never have i ever heard a customer complain about them....not to me anyway.

DYSON-if nobody wants them or wants to touch them...for whatever reason....its all freedom of choice...thats all that matters.  once a choice

is made based on all of the above info....as a whole....its then up to the owner of the shop to express his or her freedom of choice and opinion

on what they feel is the overall better vacuum for the store....best bang for the buck./reliability/durability.....branding....gen. feedback.

All in all it is what it is...freedom of choice/opinion....i dislike all bagless vacs ever made....you may not....i love RICCAR/PANASONIC .

..but i wont pay $500....im sure you could trash them all day long.....but i like what i like....and its your opinion...and i respect it....

.i once had a dyson given to me...a dc-7.....used it a couple months....not happy or impressed...so i gave it away..

.one mans trash is another mans treasure.  im sure most if not all of you have far more exp. than i.....ive learned from all of you

....even you HARDSELL....all our comments are  from OUR first hand exp....our opinions....but nomatter who you are or what you make

a $100 vacuum shouldnt last as long -outperform -an $800 vacuum for any reason.....and if a hoover tempo can take on a $800 dyson then its

dyson that needs to possibly rethink or  redo things..cause somethings not working....this goes for any $800 vacuum.....just my opinion. and

thank you for you time - patience and respect   MR.HARDSELL.

Hello "turtle1"

Thanks for the info.  Your commentary is much the same as I hear from

others in the vacuum biz. 

How long has the store/shop been in buisness?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

17 years.....5 years in new location....i work  for his son now....2yrs. his dad sold kirbys back in the day

but  set the store up with alot of side accounts to wheather any stoms that may come...[its raining]...

.he made sure we all had umbrellas....great man. i had the very short privlidge of working with him the last year he was there.

he now does missionary work and is gone alot...but once a year comes by to say hello.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello turtle1:

It sounds like a very good vacuum business.  The owner, from what you say, sounds like a remarkable person

and professional business man.  Thanks for the information.

When I sold my buz in 1992, it was to a former KIRBY dealer.  He's still there in the same location I opened in 1949.

It's a town landmark and featured in the local newspapers.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

yes he is...but had to move , tornado realy did some damage to the little shopping center ....the whole place was unsafe

so the owner found new place.....the lot where it was is still empty and over grown to this day...wow 1949 carmine! .

..can i ask just how old are you?

retardturtle1 wrote:
Noah hired Carmine to clean the ark with a Bissel sweeper. 

HARDSELL wrote:

HAHAHA

thats a good one...Carmine will be entertained im sure.

Age is relative, especially in Las Vegas.  I'm as old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth.

Abraham was 99.  HIs wife Sarah was 90.  Thet had their son Isaac. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

to me your age is wisdom and exp.....you speak highly of a couple others also. ..so i pay attn when you guys post or respond...

...been to Vegas a couple times...loved it.....left broke.....flew in ...went back on g-hound bus due to way too good of a time....

lesson learned...what looks good to ya...may for sure not be good for ya.....

WRT dyson's DDM DC22, James MUST guarantee the dust blow by after the cyclones and after the pre-motor filter as

a zero tolerance level/close to it.  It's not unreasonable for James to be accountable to these numbers.  Premium

bagged vacuum makers/products do so as routine course of business.  Why shouldn't bagless where the blow by

is even more critical and DDM where its even more relevant. 

The guarantee MUST come from an independent third party industry source and not dyson's own lab's/certifications.

All the rest is just words.  The DDM is SUPER sensitive to dirt and dust which if it blows by the separators and pre

motor filters will choke the motor's operation and render it ineffective in very in short order.  Note the pristine

factory/environment conditions in which the motors are built.  Virtually no manual intervention to introduce impurities. 

Not true with the typical carbon brush motors which can withstand huge amounts of dirt and dust and keep on going

and going.   James can make all the outlandish filter cleaning claims he wants.  Customers won't buy it.   Certify the

blow by dirt levels at zero tolerance by an independent industry source and James got something to brag about for the

$800 beanies.  Otherwise, it's more of the same dyson sugar coated bull shine to titilate the dyson cult

followers and get them to part with their money. 

Carmine D.

WOW i just took apart my ROYAL power tank,Paper filter bag,which sits inside a cloth bag,that has a filter under that.The fans show no fatigue at all,no dingy gray sandblasted look,the bearings the double shielded 608zz bearings were not dried out,the split carbons were still less than half used,the spring tension was still at 3lbs,the undercut mica armature and commutator showed no noticeable wear,Takes about 30mineuts to freshen up,break the motor in for 5 minuets, and dont worry about it again for another 25 years.So just what is so innovative about dysons filtration and DDM motor,B.T.W this motor can be bought for less than 70 bucks at better vacuum shops across the country,

DYSON and D.I.B.=FAIL

The bilkings over go rip off some one else.

regards

MOLE