Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

Marshall wrote:

In a conversation yesterday with a representative of Simplicity, he said that downsizing is an accepted thing in the industry, it is no way cheating the customer because he is actually getting more for his money. The reason he explained is simple economics and by doing this keeps the price down for all affected models. He went on to explain that if Simplicity or any other company needed 100,000 engines, they would get a certain price from the manufacturer, but if they needed 30,000 9hp 10,000 10hp and 60,000 12 hp their costs go up significantly on all models, so they purchase 100,000 of the larger units and downlabel the other models.

I'm thinking of buying a 16hp B&S engine to replace a blown 12.5 vanguard V-twin that is on a tractor I bought that is Identical to mine. Was just wondering if I would be getting 18hp for the price of the 16hp. Apparently not. Darn!

16 HP VANGUARD ENGINES

• Model Series 303700
• Displacement 29.30 cu. in. (480 cc)
• Bore 2.68 in. (68 mm)
• Stroke 2.60 in. (66 mm)
• Oil Capacity 48.0 fl. oz. (1.42 l) w/o Filter, 56 fl. oz. (1.66 l) w/ Filter

18 HP VANGUARD ENGINES

• Model Series 350700
• Displacement 34.75 cu. in. (570 cc)
• Bore 2.83 in. (72 mm)
• Stroke 2.75 in. (70 mm)
• Oil Capacity 48.0 fl. oz. (1.42 l) w/o Filter, 56 fl. oz. (1.66 l) w/ Filter

                                                                                                                                          Kevin

Sawman,
With all due respect, I see what the Simplicity guy was saying, but I disagree with him..........(not you).
Yes, the guy who buys a nine HP unit is getting a deal, but , at the risk of beating a dead horse here, the guy who is shopping for the most power is paying more for nothing.

The truth is the truth, and they should be more truthful......mark all  blowers as what they really are in hp, and sell the bigger units for more based on the other features, such as width, accessories, etc.

They could sugar coat this all they want, and justify it with economics, but the bottom line is that it is deceitful. Period.

Now, the question here, seeing that it is now March, and we here only have a few more weeks to snowblow, then we will be talking mowers, is how does this impact lawnmowers?
I've seen riders from 10 hp up to over 20 hp........

I know it is from other reasons, like hydrostatic drive, etc, but my Dad's 35 year old 10hp Allis Chamber mower had more guts then the 20 hp Sears mower I used to have.

Does this affect the smaller push lawn mowers?  Are the 3.5 hp really 5 hp?  I honestly don't know, I'm asking.

Does my exmark with a 20hp Koeller engine really a 20hp....?  My exmark has much more guts then my Sears mower did with a 20 hp Koeller engine.  I think they are different model engines, and I know there are other factors..........

I guess I do not believe any labels anymore, and must check bore, displacement, etc,etc, before buying ANY OPE.

Well, time for work.

Frank D.

sawman wrote:

Hi Pat,

My comments are not directed at you, rather what this representative said to you. 

I think that is the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard, especially if the rumors are correct and Briggs & Stratton really did buy Simplicity.  Even if they didn't, the other reason they don't tell the consumer they are all 12 HP engines is because many consumers will NOT buy that much machine especially when you look at that huge price tag.  How many on this forum would go and spend well over $1,500.00 on a snowblower, not many that's for sure.  If you don't believe that, I know there are some dealers on this forum.  Try telling your customers that these machines are really 12 HP engines and see how many continue their purchase or say, "well, I don't need a snowblower with that much power, give me one with 8 HP for many hundreds less."  These companies really need to stop their tap dancing around us and their pathetic attempts at public relations.  I bet they never tell you about addtional fuel costs incurred by the consumer to run a machine like that either.   

#1.  Has anyone studied how this effects engine replacement? If my 12 HP craps out after warrenty, am I going to go buy a 12HP for more money when I could buy a 9HP for less and really be getting my 12HP?

#2.  Has anyone found any charts/graphs of HP and Torque on the exact same 9, 10, 11 & 12HP models? If so, how varying are they. If they are all different, someone would have to be ficticiously makeing up those #'s wouldn't they?

(I got 2 soccer games today with my kids or I would spend the time to look all that up.)

Marshall wrote:

Marshall,

When you get a chance, look up that exact engine on a retailers website for the Briggs 12 HP with alternator and starter provisions.  I suspect you will not be very happy if for some reason the engine would require replacing after the warranty.  I'd be amazed if this engine is less than $750.00, I'd imagine it would be more than that, plus a high shipping cost to get it to you.  We already know the HP sticker means nothing, so you would have to purchase a 12 HP, assuming you would want to repower it as it is.

hey ...

we sell the "11 horse" engine over the counter as a replacement engine .same model numbers as the snapper ones.

and we have sold 13 or 14 so far and we sell them for 750 cdn. installed .

we sold them for about 650 installed last year.

not sure what that is in US funds,but it is cheep here,thats why we move so many i guess.

later chris

Hi Guys!

Richie-

Briggs doesen't LIST a 12hp engine in their replacement catalog in the 20cubic inch model. That's the whole point of this thread. Don' t order by hp, order the exact spec# and you will get the same engine. We have to learn to disregard hp. stickers.

In addition if you went to replace a 12hp stickered 20G414011E1 you couldn't get it from Briggs because it was made to Simplicty specs and Briggs doesen't  list that engine in their replacement catalog.  You could buy it from Simplicity but that would cost a fortune. The move to make would be to look at the Briggs replacement catalog and buy the 20D4140017 which is the same engine with a cast iron bore.That model by the way is available through Small Engine Warehouse at a discount price.

How does one know to order the 20D4140017 as a replacement? Go to the Briggs site and cruise the replacement catalog and learn how to decipher the spec #.  Tells you everything down to shaft size and whether it has a ring gear for electric start.

Once you get comfotable with spec#s instead of hp the ope world becomes an easier place.

Conversations should be is the power a 20G or a 20D. Not is it a 9hp or 12 hp.

Marc

, 

First how about the coincidence that different companies do this Downlabeling almost in the same range of horsepower as the other company.  (Different engine manufacturer also)

Second  What do they stand to loose if they label them correctly

Third  Where is the emission police here.  (you got a person who needs an 8, sell him a 12.  all the expensive emission junk on the 12 ain't gonna make up for that)

Maybe someone ought to call the emission police to get their take on this

 

Why don't they just badge them all as 12 horsepower. (the truth, no guesswork, no potential rip-off, less problems)

You know the old saying, telling one little lie just leads to another, and another etc.

So what do they loose if they tell the truth.  One thing for sure is profit.  They loose money.  If they lie they sell more options on higher end models.  Here is an example quoted from Robmitts

           Lets say someone does not want handwarmers, and does not care about the tire size. But their main and only     concern      was available power. If they pay more for the power because the machines are badged the way they seem to be, they are being deceived

So the customer who needs more power, but can't actually afford it, has to seemingly buy the bigger model and gets hand warmers and drift cutters jammed down his throat  because he thinks he is getting more power . when he is not. Great marketing technique, 

Yes it gets them more money

Does it keep the cost down for all? 

It may keep the cost down, but what they are doing in this case is robbing from the poor and giving it to the rich.

     (gotta be a politicion involved somewhere) J/K

Does anybody else see other detramints to them (the manufacturers) actually advertizing them correctly.

Another big problem I have is I really don't see how they could be doing this unless it is a hidden secret agreement across the board between companies.  Things are so competitive that all would have to happen is for one company to do it in a different range of HP than another.  So the dealer selling a customer a 5hp unit may say hey this is really a 8  so don't go to the other brand cause ours has more horsepower, and your actually getting it for free.  

Ben07

 

 

 Hi,

For info on Briggs and Tec engine parts by spec and model number, go to " Outdoordristributors.com"

I checked what the difference was by part nunber between a Tec OHV 9 and 11 HP.

I checked on the parts I thought would effect HP

Checked the following parts: Crankshaft, piston assmbly, Con rod, Head, Camshaft, Valves in and out, and carb.

They were perfect matches, same part numbers for the 9 and 11.

So I must assume Tecumseh is doing the same as Briggs!!!

So my new blower with a 9 HP label on it is really an 11 ! ! 

When I put on the adjustable carb, should make it a11.5 HP engine.