Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

This is what I know for sure so ar - I HAVE A HEADACHE!!!!!!!  Too many techs that aren't truly willing to tell you the whole story.

So at least the 9 - 12 hp have 18.6 cubic inches of displacement, these engines have the exact same model and type numbers on the Snapper and Simplicity models.  In case you have forgotten them - 20G414 0111E1.  So the guy I talked to said that they are rated at 9hp.  With the pounding on my head I'm going to try to get the rest of what he said right.

He said the hp is just a rating.  Since the emissions controls (yeah good old emmisions) came into effect it puts a hole new spin on things.  20 cubic inches used to mean 9hp in an L-head model, now with this new fangled OHV stuff that's all out the window.  Don't ask me how you're supposed to know what the actual hp is.

I've used the 9, 10, and 11's on the Snappers this winter in hard packed snow above the buckets.  They were very impressive that they didn't labor and had all the power anyone needed.  In fact, that's how we sold everyone of them, we got perspective customers to try them out in 2 1/2 feet of snow.  They were impressed, so they bought the machine that they wanted. 

I have no idea where this tale is going to end - hopefully with some rock solid answers.  But knowing that the engines are the exact same - ahhhhhhh.  What can I say????

Sherri

PS - Not sure how I got into this - I must have run out of popcorn - can someone share????

Hi Again!

I believe the disclaimers let them off the hook. The reality is the engine is only one component of these machines which do differ materially in other ways. It is not the honorable way to present your product but would we as consummers be better served if using four completely different engines would raise the price of  ope  a significant ammount. I for sure  wouldn't be happy with that .

Marc 

Richie-- Are you saying that you know the gaskets are different or are you using this as an example? The use of the different gasket would be reflected in the spec#. If the spec #s were different we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sherri-- Can't be rpm differences because the spec# for an engine in the Briggs line dictates the governor spring etc. As you know the spec#s are the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the techs any of us has spoken to has said the engines are different. To the contrary,the tech at Simplicity said the engines are the same 

Marc

mml4 wrote:

The Tecumseh l-heads used a different thickness of head gasket to make their hp.  The thinner it is the higher the hp.

I'm just grasping at straws.  I know there has to be some difference somewhere, looking at the IPL's for the Snapper machines, there are only a few parts different.  The gear boxes are the same - so they're not picking up hp there.  I'm still trying to fight my way through a group of men on the other end of the phone that think an air head just called them to find out some info.  Now that the Technicians got me PO'd I'm going to keep digging.

Sherri

Hey Marc, I'm sure your right.


This is interesting......all of the Tecumseh's are within dollars of each other.

On the Briggs engines, what am I misssing? The 9HP and the 11HP show drastically different RPM and Torque specs at the same RPM's. If it was governed speed that is the difference, once you got them to the same RPM, would they not be the same?


Tecumseh OHV Snow Engines

MODEL	OH318SA/OHSK90
HORSEPOWER	9.0
BORE & STROKE	3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	3.625 in.

Code: ET-909302B
Price: $464.04

MODEL	OH318SA/OHSK110
HORSEPOWER	11.0
BORE & STROKE	3.125 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	19.43 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-911306C
Price: $491.67

MODEL	OH358SA/OHSK120
HORSEPOWER	12.0
BORE & STROKE	3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	26 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-912301B
Price: $521.66

MODEL	OH358SA/OHSK130
HORSEPOWER	13.0
BORE & STROKE	3.312 x 2.532 in.
DISPLACEMENT	21.82 cu. in.
OIL CAPACITY	28 oz.
WEIGHT	60 lbs.
BOLT MTG. CIRCLE	5 & 6.5 in.

Code: ET-913300B
Price: $495.20




Briggs OHV Snow Engines

Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20A400 Series  9.0 h.p.

Briggs & Stratton
Horizontal Shaft Models
 20F400 Series  11.0 h.p.

Edited to to re-adjust pictures, downsize.

Just to add some confusion to the issue.  I sent Briggs an email requesting the horsepower and torque curves for the Simp 1060.  I explained that the engine code (20G414) shows it to be 12 hp and questioned if this was true.  His response is as follows:

Tom,

Thank you for your inquiry.

Here is an FAQ that will allow you to down load our Engine Sales and Replacement catalog. On pages 27 and 28 you will find similar engine to what you have. The torque curves are almost identical.


Title: What is the direct replacement for my engine?
URL: http://faqs.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faqs.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1487&p_created=950043480


If you have any further questions, feel free to update this e-mail.


Sincerely,
 Matt
Briggs & Stratton
eCustomer Support Representative

Page 28 is the 20D400 or 10 hp IntekSnow.

im thinking briggs may have got cought with their hand in the cookie jar.

can you say busted.

im starting to smell a rat here.

i dont know  how a 9 horsepower can be the axact same one as a12 horsepower.

better make more popcorn...

and i have been using the butter on the snowdance pole.

later chris   

Hi again! Left for dinner-

Marshall- Notice the description given as a series. If you don't have the exact spec# you can't make a comparrison in the Briggs line because you are then comparing apples to oranges. This whole discussion about Simplicity and Snapper has at it's core the fact that the engines are all the same exact spec #. If you go carefully through the Briggs Replacement Engine Catalog you will find that they make the same hp engines in different displacements. Thats why I keep comming back to the spec #. No one has yet disputed that the same spec# in a Briggs is not the same engine regardless of hp stickers. The discussion of Tecumseh I feel is off topic as is the comparrison of L-Head to OHV. I say this respectfully to the other posters who have mentioned those other issues. In short I think we got em' by the spec#'s. But I repeat that in terms of purchasing one model  ope over another there are material differences that account for price differential.   

Tom- the 20D4140017 or 20D4140019 would not be an exact replacement for your 1060DLXE because those typeD engines have a cast iron bore and your type G engine has an aluminum bore.By the way the 0017 and 0019 differ in shaft size only.

Of intrest to all of us re: Tom's inquiry with Briggs is what would happen if he asked for a replacement for a 12hp engine Simplicity 1280E. If he used the Spec# on the 1280E's engine the Briggs replacement catalog couldn't help him past 10hp because they don't list any 12hp. engines.

Marc

Marc, got it, that makes sense.

mml4 wrote:

In the Tecumseh type thing I was using that as a reference to show how easy it was to change hp with very little effort or as they would put a switch of a number or two.  As there is no different numbers in the Snapper/Simplicity line, Tecumseh was the next best thing.

I also know that there is no comparison in L heads and OHV.  I do work around these engines everyday and would prefer to see the OHV anyday.  It's hard for me to sit here and explain it - I can show it to you if I have several books spread across to point to the different numbers or even the micro fiche (yeah those are still around) all the resources we have at work - and still no answers.  Nobody's numbers are the same.

With that being said - I'm going to nurse my headache - tomorrow's going to be a long day.

Sherri