Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi guys,

Called Briggs with the spec # on the Simplicity I am looking at . The guy was very nice!! Called me back and spent a lot of time  but couldn't find the exact # I gave him. He said he was 90% sure the spec# I gave him  is an aluminum bore engine. What he was able to give me was the Phone # for Simplicity which I couldn't get on Friday. For you Simplicity fans the #is (262)284-8669.Hit 2 on your phone after you get through to get to the tech dept. Real interesting conversation with that gentleman.

1)All the engines in the large frame line are the same except for the 13hp unit."If you buy the the 9560E,1060DLXE,1170Eor 1280E you get the same engine."

When I asked him why he said it's more cost effective to power everything with the 12hp engine than to buy different engines for each model. He was very specific about saying the engine is the 12. The stickers are different.

2)" All the engines are aluminum bore models because they are the same engine" Simplicity chose to go with aluminum bore because they run cooler and in an environment absent of dust and dirt the cast iron isn't necessary.Today"s Aluminum alloys wear very well under winter conditions according to their tests."

3)"I should consider using the Briggs synthetic oil because it doubles  the life of the warranty. There is a chemical dye in the oil that colors the internal parts of the engine. If you have a failure they check for the color and you get a replacement." Sounds like a good deal to me.

4)He suggested using Simplicity part #1704636 to lubricate the gearbox. Infomed me that it is really a Snapper lubricant and that when Simplicity bought Snapper they found it worked very well. Said it doesen't thicken in the cold as much as other gear oils.

I pressed him a little on the aluminum bore issue reminding him that Simplicity used cast iron bore Tecumsehs before Briggs bought the company. He said that the purchase by Briggs had nothing to do with it.Simplicity started using Briggs three years ago when the Snow Intek first came out. He reminded me this was before Simplicity was bought by Briggs.When I asked him why the change he said there were too many issues with the Tecumseh carburetors .

 I went to the Briggs web site and spent some time looking at their replacement engine spec. book. Sure enough there are 9,10 and 11 hp. engines of the same displacement. To further confuse/enlighten me they listed engines of the same horse power that have different displacements.And to further confuse the issue Briggs does not list a 12 hp engine. 

I have a headache,

Marc

TomP wrote:

Hi Tom maybe I got it wrong, but is it correct to say a consumer has to pay 700  more dollars for cutters, light, frame, boost, warmers, and 4 inches of width.  So if he would have bought the 9560  he would have been able to do the same job with his equipment.  with 1 or two more passes on the driveway.  The reason I ask is I noted a lot of people saying they don't care what the horsepower of the engine is as long as the dealer sells them one that is capable of doing the job.  The other naysayers say just buy bigger and don't worry about it.  So if they went to a Simp dealer they could do that and shell out 700 bucko's for 4 more inches of width. (sry I don't think drift cutters qualifies as buying bigger, you can add them to any machine for minimal cost )

Not sure if a diff comes into play here.  My point is, is it fraud.  A good answer to that is how many people would have bought the big one if they knew it had the same engine as the little one.  No not saying they would have bought the little one.  They may have settled somewhere in the middle.  The fact remains is they based their decision partly on the sticker of the engine   Plain and simple It is fraud and it is illegal..  Maybe there is some chance that the ope industry is not hoseing us. But I think this thread is past the point of them being innocent untill proven guilty. 

Ben07:

I certainly am not defending Simplicity.  It sure looks like the same engine is being used for the 4 models.

In my case I saw no difference between 9.5 and 10 hp engines and preferred the 1060 for the frame, drift breakers, light, adjustable deflector and power boost.  If the engines were identifical I still would have paid the differential.  My only point in the post is that although you may have been mislead by the specs you still may have purchased the same machine.  I am very happy with the performance.

I would also be interested in learning is this a Simplicity issue, Briggs issue or all manufacturers issue.  I don't believe we will hear anything other than the specs are accurate from Simplicity or Briggs here. 

Hey Guys,
Up to now, I have not really read this thread........I own an Ariens and so I did not think it really concerned me.
As the thread reached 100 posts,  it peaked my interest.    WOW!

It seems like I have reason more each day to turn cynical.

Marshall posted awhile back that with the Tec engines, my 13hp IS bigger and different than the other ones, so I guess I have no dog in this fight.

I would be angry if I bought a 12hp briggs unit thinking I was getting more HP then the less expensive 9hp.

Come lawnmower season....(a few more months yet here)...will this be an issue?

Anyway, I'm happy with my 13hp Ariens....it does the job, and it looks like the specs are bigger then the smaller engines Ariens puts on the snowblowers.  I'd be screaming if that were not the case.

It would be interesting to put a 12hp and a 9hp of the units in question side to side to really see if there is a difference, but from what you guys have found out, there IS no difference.
If that is true, I have no respect for these companies or the dealers who are pushing the bigger blowers because of the HP, and I'd really be mad if I bought a biggest blower just for the power alone.

Actually, that's what I did do, but it looks like in the case of Ariens, you really do get what you are paying for......a 13hp engine that is bigger then the smaller ones. I'm glad I bought the model I bought.

Frank D.

mml4 wrote:
The light may have dawned on this one. Here's my GUESS.

Maybe its a Reeves setup with a stiff threshold. When the unit is under heavy load the pulleys change from the "normal" ratio to the "heavy load" ratio with practically no intermediate ratios.

I think we need to get Paula and Dave in Wisconsin to drive to Briggs in Milwaukee and see what's up. If they don't come forth, go get a news crew.

I have a feeling Paula would get them to talk. 

TomP I understand your decision, no problem there, I think I would have done the same thing. That's why I said consumers make their purchase partly on the advertized horsepower of the engine.  I just didn't want  you to think I in any way implying you on my next post.  By the way you have been a great help in this thread so thanks for that also. 

Ben07

Hi Guys !

Not so fast!!

The price differential between machines may be warranted after all! Lets take a look at one difference between the Simplicity 1170E and 1280E. Handwarmers are optional on the 1170E and standard on the 1280E. How much is a hand warmer? Couldn't find the part# for the Simplicity in time for this post(I will later) but I did find it for the Ariens. Part Number 07532900 listed at $65.12 PER SIDE. Tires are bigger on the 1280E as compared to the 1170E as well. Are there other less obvious differences that account for the price difference? Not sure- The point is we have to stop looking at the engine as the only factor in pricing strategy.

Marc 

mml4 wrote:

Marc,

I don't think the value added features are the point. Everyone is looking for something different. Lets say someone does not want handwarmers, and does not care about the tire size. But their main and only concern was available power. If they pay more for the power because the machines are badged the way they seem to be, they are being deceived.

If the engines are the same, they shoud be badged the same. No question.

There can be other warranty factors. But not very likley.

Marc,

This is an extremely interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

robmints wrote:

Marc I got to help Rob Drive this home.  It is understood that there in some cases be warranted a price varience that is justified by the options.  BUT STILL THE CUSTOMER IS BASING PART OF HIS DECISION ON THE ADVERTIZED HORSEPOWER. 

How is a customer going to really know the hidden HP if we cannot find it in here with enthusiasts and experts,  and teamwork, and looking at it from both sides. etc etc. 

If we/you all get off on this itty bitty tangent of sometimes it is justified, then we may as well play a game of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey" when making a purchase.  and if we ignor it than we are truly wearing a blind fold.  I suggest that we stick with what the horsepower of the engine really is compared to what it is advertized as. and granted you could be ripped off on unscaved or get a better deal than you think purchasing it blindly.  That's been gone thru,  but is  not the root issue. 

And Marc you are one of the best guys inhere, and I know you are always and only looking at if from both sides to be fair and thorough,  But I think this thread is beyond that point.  For instance it is getting so good that it has attracted new viewers, and they weren't afraid to post in the middle of it all , but commented that they had to read a lot to catch-up.  Why did they have to read a lot is because most all of us have been covering the option complication mixed in with the Horsepower .  Why don't we start a new thread entitled "What is the true horsepower of your engine"  then those that are interested in that can go there, and anybody who wants to talk about the whole conglomerate of issues mixed together can spin that around all they want in here, and we will see where the real conversation/problem solving will be.

In all due respect Ben07

Pls feel free to P M me if I am out of line here.   I am just tired of this issue being dragged thru  the mud most of the time because it is hard enough solving the horsepower issue on it's own.  and aparently all the manufacturers made it difficult to do simultaneously with the timing of when the emissions people have to be in full swing.   What a coincidence HUH?

Coincidence that none of these problems were around for like 60 years.  Yeah Right!!!