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jrtrebor


Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Original Message   Feb 13, 2012 7:33 pm
That brings the Toro count to five.   It really needs to snow so I can get rid of a couple.  Or just stop counting.  Got this one at another auction for $29.00 .
Said it needed a flywheel...  It does and has a few more issues,  But the rest of the blower is in excellent condition.  2010 model  210R   38517  



Flywheel is junk.  This is like the chicken or the egg thing.  Don't know what could cause this.
Unless the nut backed off.  But the magneto did get trashed.  Nor did the recoil.
So what ever happened it happened fast.  Ive seen keys shear if the engine does a massive seize.
Or drops a rod off the crank.  But I've never seen a hub crack even thought it's aluminum.






Tore up the key way slot as well.
What's interesting is that the slot is flared out on both sides.
There is galling on the crank so the flywheel did spin at least a couple of times.
Maybe someone installed the wrong size key? Which allowed it to tip in the slot first.
Then things just started to happen. 





Took out the governor parts.




Am finding out some interesting things.  Such as, I've got a flywheel off of a 1999 Toro CCR2400 and according to
the Toro Parts Master.  The two engines (084132-0120-E1) are the same and they both use the same flywheel.
I say they are the same, but one is an E1 and the 210R is and E8 not really sure what that is?
They also both use the same crank.  And I have the crank as well.
Haven't  decided exactly what I'm going to do with the key way slot.  The slot still has some pretty good sides but
the top portion is pretty bad.  I may just eith tack weld a new key in place on the sides.   Then square it back up with a with a cutting wheel
on a Dremel.  Not sure.  I cleaned it up and it doesn't look to bad.




The casing is so close to the auger pulley that you can't get the belt off without taking off the pulley.  The casing doesn't appear to be bent.
From what I could see.  That's a pain.





The cutting edge / scraper tilts under spring tension.  And is much beefier than the older ones.  It would also be easier to replace.
Two bolts, and they are in a much better location.  Won't take as much abuse and rust as badly.





The tank just slips on a mounting post.  That's it, no other supports other than the neck going through the top cover.



And there is a little "tang" that hooks on the edge of the oval opening that keeps it from sliding off.  Once you push it all the way down and on.
Which it is not in the photo.




Overall the thing is in really good condition.
I also looked down the plug hole and there isn't any carbon at all on the head of the piston, none.
Which is a little strange. 



This message was modified Feb 13, 2012 by jrtrebor
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RedOctobyr


Location: Lowell area, MA
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
Points: 282

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #1   Feb 13, 2012 8:32 pm
That's a nice score for $29! There are a whole bunch of parts on there that would probably go for more than $29 by themselves. It seems to be in great shape (well, except for the flywheel, of course); the paddles & surrounding hardware don't really look worn/rusty at all. Very nice.

The flywheel is pretty interesting. As is the fact that the keyway was so deformed and had sheared over the side. It looks a lot better after to cleaned up those overhangs by the keyway. Just in case it's of any help, Loctite sells some products which, among other things, can apparently help with keyway repairs. See page 9 of the PDF.

http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/192137_LT5338_Shaft_Repair_final.pdf

I'm surprised the keyway got so deformed. Like you said, perhaps they used the wrong-size key. But I thought the keys were supposed to be comparatively soft. It seems curious that it would have damaged the steel crankshaft that much. What might you attribute the lack of piston-carbon to? A brand-new engine, that had a flywheel with a casting problem (or similar), which failed almost immediately, something like that?
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #2   Feb 13, 2012 9:22 pm
Nice find.

The flywheel probably had a casting defect and self destructed or as you said, the nut wasn't torqued down.  Had to have been happening for a while to cause that kind of damage to the key-way.  If possible, I'd have the key-way built up by welding then trim it to fit the proper key.  Or, you could try to JB Weld a key into the slot ensuring that it's dead center.  The reason I say that is on a tapered end like that, a key is often not needed for anything but to line up the rotor for correct ignition setting.  The tapered end when secured with a bolt or nut will hold without the key. 

I have rebuilt a couple Yamaha 350/400 cc two cycle motorcycle engines in the last few years.  Part of the rebuild was installing state of the art electronics which necessitated removal of all of the old gear.  When I pulled off the old electrics, I noticed that there was a key-way, and a tapered end on the crank.   The piece I was putting on had no key-way.  Needless to say, this caused me concern so I called the manufacturer of the electronics and they told me that a key isn't necessary and to just put the rotor on as per their instructions.  All I had to do was set the piston at the correct distance from TDC before I put on the new rotor which I gently pushed into position then used the bolt to hold it on.   Those rotors have been spun up to close to 10,000 rpm numerous times and haven't budged.  Most modern motorcycle cranks are tapered without key-ways.

So, if you ensure the key is set dead center and JB Welded in, when you put the flywheel on and torque down the nut, I'd be willing to wager that it will hold.   Keep us posted on what you do.

Here's a couple pics of what I was working with:



Yamaha crankshaft with key.  The crank is tapered, not stepped as the picture seems to look. 


New rotor with no key-way.
   
jrtrebor


Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #3   Feb 13, 2012 9:44 pm
borat - That's a good point about the tapered shaft.  That the key way is simply for alignment / timing purposes.  A lot, if not most tapered shafts do not have key ways.  The crank ends on engines
used to power generators don't have key ways.  It still surprises me that the hub broke out the way it did.  I was starting to wonder if it is possible to tighten down the flywheel nut to much.
Forcing the flywheel on to the tapered crank just a fraction to far, which put a small fracture in the hub.  Which then very quickly becomes a crack etc.

I posted earlier that the flywheels were the same on an older engine that I had.  When I was comparing the two, the older one was considerably heavier than the newer one, weight wise.
I'm beginning to wonder if there wasn't a problem with this engine from the very start.  Like from the first day someone tried to start it.  I say that because of the lack of any carbon on the piston and plug.
The top of the piston is shiny.
borat


Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #4   Feb 14, 2012 9:01 am
I'd say chances are that there was an issue with the flywheel from the get go hence the relatively good condition of the machine.   Chances of cracking due to over torquing might be possible but I've personally never heard of it before.  I'd be more inclined to believe that there was likely a casting flaw but by the way the center of the hub cracked, you'd almost think that it was forced down too far over the taper. 

Can't say for sure but, it would appear that the catastrophic failure happened rather quickly and likely would not have had sufficient time to have a negative effect on the rest of the engine such as bending the crank or damaging crank bearings.  If everything rotates freely and evenly, you're probably good to go with the new flywheel. 

The difference in flywheel weight might be simply due to reducing production costs.  However, a heavier flywheel will be advantageous in a machine designed to operate at continuous rpm because it's rotational  mass will carry engine rpms  more consistently under varying loads.  If it's timing characteristics are the same as the old flywheel, make the swap and fire it up.  I'd be interested to see how things work out. 

Keep us posted.   
RedOctobyr


Location: Lowell area, MA
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
Points: 282

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #5   Feb 14, 2012 9:39 am
It's also possible (though hardly a given) that the lighter flywheel will actually behave the same way. The distribution of the mass (it's radius from the center) is what will really how "effective" the flywheel is. Say the old flywheel had an iron sleeve in the middle, where it mates with the crankshaft. That might add significantly to the flywheel's weight (vs all-aluminum), but would make a negligible difference in how much of an effect the flywheel had. But you move that same mass to the outer edge of the flywheel, and suddenly it becomes a lot more effective.

I have no idea how much of a weight difference we're talking about, etc. And it seems more likely that the newer flywheel truly is less "effective". But there can be more at play than simply the overall mass of the flywheel.
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #6   Feb 14, 2012 10:02 am
Nice score on that 221QR.  You've got at least $200 in sellable parts on that machine.   Good luck on getting it sorted out, hopefully it just needs a new flywheel.  Looking at the pictures, you can see why Toro is ahead of the game, there's some smart engineering here and there.
jrtrebor


Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #7   Feb 14, 2012 1:35 pm
Well in comparing the two flywheels there are a few significant differences.
One in particular, that I believe maybe responsible for the flywheel hub breaking.
You can see that the older flywheel on the right has a steel center.  I think what may have happened is that
the new flywheel without the steel center may been over torqued or that the torqued rating was to high.
And that when it is tightened down onto the tapered crankshaft, it acts as a wedge and splits / cracks / fractures
the hub.  Once it's put into use the stress vibration etc.. starts working on the stressed point it gets a little wobbly,
out of balance and the end comes quickly at some point.  All just speculation.
But having an all aluminum hub on a steel shaft with a steel key way.  Probably isn't a good idea if anything gets a little loose.
For what ever reason.
 It's also possible I guess that the flywheel wasn't as tight as it should be. 
What ever was the start or cause.  It's easy to see that having a steel center is a far better design.
     

Got a new key and mounted the older flywheel so I could check for spark, and discovered another problem.
Things looked okay with the coil.  But after mounting the flywheel I could see that the air gap was way to much.
Like an 1/8" of an inch.  I assumed that the flywheel had hit it and moved it, which it did.
But as I loosened the bolt on the right on the right side of the coil.  The entire mounting stud on the left side pulled away from
the block.  The flywheel hit the coil hard enough to break the stud right off the head.  Not a major deal to repair, just another
one of those odd things that happens when things go wrong.  Actually it's probably better that the stud broke and the coil moved
out of the way.  Or it might have gotten torn up and would have to be replaced.  There is no damage to the legs thankfully.

By the way the new key fits nice and snug in the slot no movement at all.  And the flywheel has no rotational play either.  So I think I'm just going to leave the crank slot the way it is.
And rely on the taper to keep the flywheel tight and aligned on the crank.



jrtrebor


Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #8   Feb 14, 2012 1:53 pm
aa335 wrote:
Nice score on that 221QR.  You've got at least $200 in sellable parts on that machine.   Good luck on getting it sorted out, hopefully it just needs a new flywheel.  Looking at the pictures, you can see why Toro is ahead of the game, there's some smart engineering here and there.

Thanks aa335.  I think I now know what it's going to need to get it back up and running.  The only parts that I'm probably going to have to buy will be the governor parts.  I don't know whether the owner
forgot to put them in the box.  Or whether the flywheel ripped them up, either way I don't have the vane, the gov. rod and some other part.  The mount is still there and intact.  I think the parts will run about
10 or 12 dollars.  Other than that (fingers crossed)  I'll have a less than 2 year old blower for around $50.00 or so.  I'm thrilled.  But the way things are going here it may be next year before I might be
able to really put it to a test.

Your right about Toro.  I really like the new cutting edge / scraper bar design.  Also on the the smartest changes they made.  Was putting a one bolt removable panel that exposes the entire
carb.  and access to it and all the linkage.  Get idea.  I take a few pictures when I get all the covers back one.
They also redesigned  the cable pull linkage and routing for the tension pulley arm.  Pulling on the bail has a much smoother feel to it.  They also raised the sides of the blower up just a little
so that now as your scrapper bar and paddles wear you don't end up grinding down the actual sides of the blower housing itself.  If you wait a little to long to replace those items.
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #9   Feb 14, 2012 2:06 pm
jrtrebor wrote:

     


That's quite a significant difference between the newer flywheel (left) and the older flywheel (right).  Not only older flywheel has a steel insert, but the area surrounding the insert is raised and has a thicker cross section.  In addition, there also four ribs radiating from the center outward.    I'm not saying that the newer flywheel design doesn't perform as well, but it is likety to be more prone to failure when it is not properly torqued down (too loose or too tight) or when casting defects are present.  The newer flywheel was probably a result of a cost cutting or value improvement program.  1)  Remove steel insert, 2) Lighten flywheel to reduce material use and shift the rotating mass outward to keep the same polar moment of inertia. 

If I were tasked to reduce cost, these are the first two areas that I would probably concentrate on.  It's a valid change, but definitely reduce the safety factor.  It's a fine balance, reliability and cost.  :)  You can optimize a component up to a certain point to reduce costs, that has to balance out with warranty claims and recall costs. 
This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by aa335
trouts2




Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328

Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #10   Feb 14, 2012 3:30 pm
   The 38517 should probably be 38587.

    Looked at the PL for the back and it looks like it might just be big enough to get the carb out which would be very nice.  Murray addad a pannel which is just enough to make a linkage adjust with a screwdriver but that's about it.

   No listing in the manuals for RPM.  Do you what those ran at?

   Nice rig and great price.  Also great picts and review.

This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by trouts2
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