Abby’s Guide > Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) > Discussions > Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions |
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jrtrebor
 
Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539
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Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Original Message Feb 13, 2012 7:33 pm |
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That brings the Toro count to five. It really needs to snow so I can get rid of a couple. Or just stop counting. Got this one at another auction for $29.00 .
Said it needed a flywheel... It does and has a few more issues, But the rest of the blower is in excellent condition. 2010 model 210R 38517
 Flywheel is junk. This is like the chicken or the egg thing. Don't know what could cause this. Unless the nut backed off. But the magneto did get trashed. Nor did the recoil. So what ever happened it happened fast. Ive seen keys shear if the engine does a massive seize. Or drops a rod off the crank. But I've never seen a hub crack even thought it's aluminum.   Tore up the key way slot as well. What's interesting is that the slot is flared out on both sides. There is galling on the crank so the flywheel did spin at least a couple of times. Maybe someone installed the wrong size key? Which allowed it to tip in the slot first. Then things just started to happen.  Took out the governor parts.  Am finding out some interesting things. Such as, I've got a flywheel off of a 1999 Toro CCR2400 and according to the Toro Parts Master. The two engines (084132-0120-E1) are the same and they both use the same flywheel. I say they are the same, but one is an E1 and the 210R is and E8 not really sure what that is? They also both use the same crank. And I have the crank as well. Haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do with the key way slot. The slot still has some pretty good sides but the top portion is pretty bad. I may just eith tack weld a new key in place on the sides. Then square it back up with a with a cutting wheel on a Dremel. Not sure. I cleaned it up and it doesn't look to bad.  The casing is so close to the auger pulley that you can't get the belt off without taking off the pulley. The casing doesn't appear to be bent. From what I could see. That's a pain.  The cutting edge / scraper tilts under spring tension. And is much beefier than the older ones. It would also be easier to replace. Two bolts, and they are in a much better location. Won't take as much abuse and rust as badly.  The tank just slips on a mounting post. That's it, no other supports other than the neck going through the top cover.  And there is a little "tang" that hooks on the edge of the oval opening that keeps it from sliding off. Once you push it all the way down and on. Which it is not in the photo.  Overall the thing is in really good condition. I also looked down the plug hole and there isn't any carbon at all on the head of the piston, none. Which is a little strange. 
This message was modified Feb 13, 2012 by jrtrebor
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RedOctobyr
Location: Lowell area, MA
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
Points: 282
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #1 Feb 13, 2012 8:32 pm |
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That's a nice score for $29! There are a whole bunch of parts on there that would probably go for more than $29 by themselves. It seems to be in great shape (well, except for the flywheel, of course); the paddles & surrounding hardware don't really look worn/rusty at all. Very nice.
The flywheel is pretty interesting. As is the fact that the keyway was so deformed and had sheared over the side. It looks a lot better after to cleaned up those overhangs by the keyway. Just in case it's of any help, Loctite sells some products which, among other things, can apparently help with keyway repairs. See page 9 of the PDF.
http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/192137_LT5338_Shaft_Repair_final.pdf
I'm surprised the keyway got so deformed. Like you said, perhaps they used the wrong-size key. But I thought the keys were supposed to be comparatively soft. It seems curious that it would have damaged the steel crankshaft that much. What might you attribute the lack of piston-carbon to? A brand-new engine, that had a flywheel with a casting problem (or similar), which failed almost immediately, something like that?
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borat
Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #2 Feb 13, 2012 9:22 pm |
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Nice find. The flywheel probably had a casting defect and self destructed or as you said, the nut wasn't torqued down. Had to have been happening for a while to cause that kind of damage to the key-way. If possible, I'd have the key-way built up by welding then trim it to fit the proper key. Or, you could try to JB Weld a key into the slot ensuring that it's dead center. The reason I say that is on a tapered end like that, a key is often not needed for anything but to line up the rotor for correct ignition setting. The tapered end when secured with a bolt or nut will hold without the key. I have rebuilt a couple Yamaha 350/400 cc two cycle motorcycle engines in the last few years. Part of the rebuild was installing state of the art electronics which necessitated removal of all of the old gear. When I pulled off the old electrics, I noticed that there was a key-way, and a tapered end on the crank. The piece I was putting on had no key-way. Needless to say, this caused me concern so I called the manufacturer of the electronics and they told me that a key isn't necessary and to just put the rotor on as per their instructions. All I had to do was set the piston at the correct distance from TDC before I put on the new rotor which I gently pushed into position then used the bolt to hold it on. Those rotors have been spun up to close to 10,000 rpm numerous times and haven't budged. Most modern motorcycle cranks are tapered without key-ways. So, if you ensure the key is set dead center and JB Welded in, when you put the flywheel on and torque down the nut, I'd be willing to wager that it will hold. Keep us posted on what you do. Here's a couple pics of what I was working with: Yamaha crankshaft with key. The crank is tapered, not stepped as the picture seems to look.  New rotor with no key-way.  |
jrtrebor
Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #7 Feb 14, 2012 1:35 pm |
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Well in comparing the two flywheels there are a few significant differences. One in particular, that I believe maybe responsible for the flywheel hub breaking. You can see that the older flywheel on the right has a steel center. I think what may have happened is that the new flywheel without the steel center may been over torqued or that the torqued rating was to high. And that when it is tightened down onto the tapered crankshaft, it acts as a wedge and splits / cracks / fractures the hub. Once it's put into use the stress vibration etc.. starts working on the stressed point it gets a little wobbly, out of balance and the end comes quickly at some point. All just speculation. But having an all aluminum hub on a steel shaft with a steel key way. Probably isn't a good idea if anything gets a little loose. For what ever reason. It's also possible I guess that the flywheel wasn't as tight as it should be. What ever was the start or cause. It's easy to see that having a steel center is a far better design.   Got a new key and mounted the older flywheel so I could check for spark, and discovered another problem. Things looked okay with the coil. But after mounting the flywheel I could see that the air gap was way to much. Like an 1/8" of an inch. I assumed that the flywheel had hit it and moved it, which it did. But as I loosened the bolt on the right on the right side of the coil. The entire mounting stud on the left side pulled away from the block. The flywheel hit the coil hard enough to break the stud right off the head. Not a major deal to repair, just another one of those odd things that happens when things go wrong. Actually it's probably better that the stud broke and the coil moved out of the way. Or it might have gotten torn up and would have to be replaced. There is no damage to the legs thankfully. By the way the new key fits nice and snug in the slot no movement at all. And the flywheel has no rotational play either. So I think I'm just going to leave the crank slot the way it is. And rely on the taper to keep the flywheel tight and aligned on the crank. 
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jrtrebor
Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #8 Feb 14, 2012 1:53 pm |
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Nice score on that 221QR. You've got at least $200 in sellable parts on that machine. Good luck on getting it sorted out, hopefully it just needs a new flywheel. Looking at the pictures, you can see why Toro is ahead of the game, there's some smart engineering here and there. Thanks aa335. I think I now know what it's going to need to get it back up and running. The only parts that I'm probably going to have to buy will be the governor parts. I don't know whether the owner forgot to put them in the box. Or whether the flywheel ripped them up, either way I don't have the vane, the gov. rod and some other part. The mount is still there and intact. I think the parts will run about 10 or 12 dollars. Other than that (fingers crossed) I'll have a less than 2 year old blower for around $50.00 or so. I'm thrilled. But the way things are going here it may be next year before I might be able to really put it to a test. Your right about Toro. I really like the new cutting edge / scraper bar design. Also on the the smartest changes they made. Was putting a one bolt removable panel that exposes the entire carb. and access to it and all the linkage. Get idea. I take a few pictures when I get all the covers back one. They also redesigned the cable pull linkage and routing for the tension pulley arm. Pulling on the bail has a much smoother feel to it. They also raised the sides of the blower up just a little so that now as your scrapper bar and paddles wear you don't end up grinding down the actual sides of the blower housing itself. If you wait a little to long to replace those items.
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aa335
Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #9 Feb 14, 2012 2:06 pm |
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That's quite a significant difference between the newer flywheel (left) and the older flywheel (right). Not only older flywheel has a steel insert, but the area surrounding the insert is raised and has a thicker cross section. In addition, there also four ribs radiating from the center outward. I'm not saying that the newer flywheel design doesn't perform as well, but it is likety to be more prone to failure when it is not properly torqued down (too loose or too tight) or when casting defects are present. The newer flywheel was probably a result of a cost cutting or value improvement program. 1) Remove steel insert, 2) Lighten flywheel to reduce material use and shift the rotating mass outward to keep the same polar moment of inertia. If I were tasked to reduce cost, these are the first two areas that I would probably concentrate on. It's a valid change, but definitely reduce the safety factor. It's a fine balance, reliability and cost. :) You can optimize a component up to a certain point to reduce costs, that has to balance out with warranty claims and recall costs.
This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by aa335
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trouts2
Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #10 Feb 14, 2012 3:30 pm |
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The 38517 should probably be 38587. Looked at the PL for the back and it looks like it might just be big enough to get the carb out which would be very nice. Murray addad a pannel which is just enough to make a linkage adjust with a screwdriver but that's about it. No listing in the manuals for RPM. Do you what those ran at? Nice rig and great price. Also great picts and review.
This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by trouts2
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jrtrebor
Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #11 Feb 14, 2012 5:17 pm |
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No listing in the manuals for RPM. Do you what those ran at? Nice rig and great price. Also great picts and review. trouts2 - All it says in the manual is. Torque values are derived at 3060 RPM; horsepower values are derived at 3600 RPM. It also states "Engine power will decrease 3-1/2 % for each 1000 feet (300 meters) above sea level" Thanks for your comments
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borat
Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #12 Feb 14, 2012 6:03 pm |
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JRT: That's the 5 h.p. R-tek right? I have a Toro PDF file that shows the operating range from 3850 to 4250 rpm. At 4250, my Toro is a handful to hold back. I'm certain that it's making over 5 h.p. at 4250.
This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by borat
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borat
Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #18 Feb 14, 2012 8:46 pm |
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Are you planning on taking the engine completely apart? If not, you might get grinding dust and debris into the cylinder. You might be able to get around that by blocking the carburetor and supplying compressed air down through the spark plug hole while you're working. Pressurizing the engine should prevent debris from getting into the crank case and intake ports. Not the way I'd do it but if you're careful, not much if any should get into the cylinder. you'll need a fairly stiff breeze coming out of the exhaust ports. After the work is done, I'd tip the engine to have the spark plug hole on the bottom and blast a copious amount of something like solvent or WD-40 into the cylinder to flush anything that may have gotten inside out of the cylinder. Good luck. Edit: Reference previous discussion concerning the size of ports limiting engine speed. Below are cylinders from a 1974 RD350 motorcycle. Engine in stock form produced 39 h.p. at 8500 rpm. My modified engine is making close to 50 h.p. Note size of intake and exhaust ports compared to the ports on a 139cc Tecumseh engine. Each Yamaha cylinder is 175cc which is only 36cc larger than the Tecumseh. The Yamaha's ports are huge by comparison to those on the Tecumseh. Hence the ability to spin faster and make much, much more power. RD350 stock intake ports:  RD350 stock exhaust ports:  RD350 engine 
This message was modified Feb 14, 2012 by borat
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jrtrebor
Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #21 Feb 15, 2012 9:23 am |
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That's really nice looking. They were great handling bikes. And from what I remember they also really liked standing up on the back wheel. I like yellow as well, painted my 250 dirt bike that color. Painted the frame white. My friends called it the "Banana". Thinking back that was an appropriate name considering all the slipping, sliding and falling down I used to do.
This message was modified Feb 15, 2012 by jrtrebor
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borat
Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692
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Re: Well, bought another new to me SS - Toro 210R
Reply #23 Feb 15, 2012 12:47 pm |
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I don't know much about the RD350 engine but from the pictures, that's looks very compact for an engine that size. Is that an oversquare engine with HUGE ports? Seems like that engine would love to breathe and rev high, has a huge appetite for fuel and oil too. I can see now why you have the Toro 221QE and Tecumseh powered SS in your stable.
Thanks for posting the pictures. Definitely off topic, but I don't mind. I enjoy seeing labor of love restoration of legendary machines. BTW, didn't these machines at the time had drum brakes? Does the black powder coating over the cooling fins of the engine reduce cooling efficiency? The stock bike was around 350 lbs. and 39 h.p. My yellow RD is 300 lbs. and making a conservative 50 h.p. The engine is over-square and the porting is stock although was a bit radical from the manufacturer. Power band is none too wide in stock form hence the sudden burst of power and willingness to wheelie. With the programmable electronic ignition, the power band is much wider and the bike is much more manageable. Reasonable torque at lower rpm and a real kick in the pants at anything past 5000 rpm depending on which gear it's in. The bike can be either easy or hard on fuel. All depends on how you're riding. The 1973 RD350 was the first of the Yamaha two strokes to come out with a disk front brake and rear hub brake. Which, on a bike this light is more than enough brakes. I've got a 350cc, 1972 Yamaha R5 in my shed waiting for it's turn in the garage. It's got hub brakes front and rear. Another major difference between the R5 and RD is that the R5 has a piston port engine. The RDs have reeds and were advertised as having "Torque Induction" due to the addition of reeds. I did quite a bit of research on the powder coating of the engine. Older (thicker) applications may possibly have insulated the fins somewhat but not of any significance. New applications which are thinner but just as durable have virtually no effect on cooling. It's also a known fact that black painted engines dissipate heat better. Speaking of heat dissipation, the programmable ignition, as well as shaving the squish band off of the cylinder heads contribute considerably to engine cooling efficiency. Adjusting the timing to expedite hot exhaust gasses from the cylinder into the expansion chamber as well as very free flowing exhaust help keep the engine relatively cool. From what I've read, shaving .030 from the squish band improves flame travel and gas flow which helps cooling. I'm not an expert by any means and all of my knowledge has been garnered from the brains of true two cycle fanatics. The most desired two cycles are the Yamaha RDs, followed by the Kawasaki triples. RDs in the US are cult status. They'll be with us for a long time providing people with interest keep them alive.
This message was modified Feb 15, 2012 by borat
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