Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Guys,

I may get to go check out some SS's. One is a Yardman 21" 5hp 2-stroke. The other is a Toro CCR2000e 2-stroke.

I am leaning towards the Yardman, based on boratification possibilities. I'm guessing/hoping it has a 5hp Tecumseh, maybe the HSK850. The Toro would have a 4.5hp Suzuki engine, from what I understand. I don't care about electric start. Any reason to avoid the Yardman? I realize it's probably not as solid/durable a machine as the Toro. But if it could be ramped up more in the power department, I could live with that. Thanks for any feedback.

Red,

    That cowling stud dosent seem to go with that body.  I'll bet the engine is not original to that body and may have come from a newer MTD model.  Makers like MTD and Murray would order cowlings specific to engines so paying for an extra unused mounting bolt is not likely.

Red:

Jack up the Yardman and flog it.  See how it does.  I agree that you should try to use the stud in the recoil/fan cover as an additional engine support.  It will assist in keeping the engine put.  Mix your fuel at 32:1 and see how well it works.  I suspect that running at speed, with that auger, that thing should move some serious snow. 

Does the center of the curve of the auger paddles line up with the snow ejection hole/chute?  If so, it should work well.  Even if it's off to one side a bit, I'm confident that slight disadvantage will be overcome by the sheer velocity of the auger. 

RedOctobyr wrote:

Sometimes you can find a used SS522 cheaper than you can do engine swaps.  Nothing wrong with running the HSK850 on Yardman and see if the extra RPM improves performance.  I'ts easy, cheap, and convenient.   It's just my nature to run with my own hodge podge than someone elses.  Besides, there's no snow in sight to test the machine and it's been warm so it's the perfect time for engine swaps.  You know sooner or later whether you will just leave it at that. 

RedOctobyr wrote:

You definitely want to gear it so when the auger is under high load of the EOD, it doesn't slow down the 2 stroke engine below the powerband, seems like torque drops off fast.  When that happens, the auger slows to a crawl and doesn't have the velocity to push the snow up the chute and it just plugs.  Seen this all the time on my neighbor's 221QR.  Toro's PowerCurve design is semi open around the shaft by intent, so when the snow cannot be pushed up the chute, the auger spits it out in front.  This lessens the torque demand.  The upside of this design is the auger assembly is extremely lightweight and efficient which gives it good throwing distance.  It's quite smart design actually, because when plugging occurs, you just have to ease back, let the engine spins up again, and the auger will purge the plugged snow, with a little wiggling.  The auger just aerates the snow, purges it, and you're back in business.  Rarely do you need to stick something in the chute to clear it.

If you want an EOD busting SS, look into the Honda HS621.  That has a reinforced flat center paddle, it is basically a chopper bar in the middle.  The center is also closed so it will throw sludge very well, nothing gets past it.  The torque demand for this machine is a lot higher, higher rotational mass, it is more suitable with a large displacement four stroke spinning at lower RPMS.  I've bumped up the RPM on this engine and it does not like overrevving, lots of noise and vibration.  It feels like throwing a rod or messing up the valve train.

Anyways, I think I've gone into more details on the mechanics of the snow moving parts than you may expected, but it's interesting to see how each company differs in approach of the problem.  When I looked closer at the Ariens 722EC, this design seems to be a combination of Toro and Honda design pulled together.  I think Ariens would have had a killer all around SS if they had dropped in a 200cc 4 stroke engine.  Unfortunately, at the the time these super expensive SS were coming into the market, people were just not interested in spending +$800 single stage machines.  It's expensive to make a SS approach the performance of a true 2 stage, and it only gets heavier.  Ariens didn't see the point of having this super SS encroaching on the sales ground their revered 2 stage. 

trouts2, given the other changes on this machine, I could believe that this might not be the original engine, due to the presence of the "extra" mounting stud. I was also surprised to see it there, with nothing attached, for reasons like you said.

borat, the center of the paddle does not quite line up with the chute, unfortunately. Given that the new impeller is supposedly 1" narrower (haven't actually measured it), it would be off by 1/2". Though it might be a bit more than a 1" difference. I'd be looking to ramp the RPMs on this, so hopefully that would help offset the problem, like you said.

It's the quality/durability of the Yardman that is part of my concern. The Ariens feels like a better machine. Plus the Yardman is sort of a collection of assorted parts at the moment.

I would not attempt an engine swap if I could not put the -600 in the Yardman. Currently I have 2 machines that run, the goal is to sell 1. That's a lot tougher if one no longer has an engine. But I might be better off to leave them with their own engines, sell 1, and keep an eye out for an inexpensive SS522 or other good machine with an -850. One advantage with my SS3222 is that I know it's in good condition overall. And a number of SS machines don't have chute cranks (so maybe it's not a big deal). I can just spin it manually. The extra power, however, would be pretty nice.

I did realize that the choke controls are different on the 2 engines. The Ariens uses a push-pull plunger for the choke. The Yardman uses a left-right lever. I'd have to look at them more closely to see if the carbs themselves work the same way, and I could keep the plunger control on the Ariens, even with going to the -850 carb, etc. The Yardman does have several sets of engine mounting holes around the crankshaft; hopefully some would line up with the -600.

Oh, and as nice as a Honda would be, I can't justify spending a whole bunch of money for something really nice. I'd like more than 3hp, so I could use the SS in slightly bigger storms. But I don't really need something of the Honda's caliber & expense.

"Oh, and as nice as a Honda would be, I can't justify spending a whole bunch of money for something really nice. I'd like more than 3hp, so I could use the SS in slightly bigger storms. But I don't really need something of the Honda's caliber & expense."

I know exactly what you mean. 

Last year when I got the SS bug, I bought the Craftsman, tried to use it (totally pathetic), hopped it up, fixed it up and have been totally satisfied with it ever since.  Being that I had only spent $75.00 or so out of my snow blower acquisition budget, I was still cruising around for a Toro product due to their reputation for being one of the best SS machines available.  Nothing reasonably priced was being offered used so, when Home Depot put  the 221 QRE on sale for $599.00, I just couldn't resist.  Now that I've had both machines for over a year and used both of them enough to know what I like,  I'm always drawn to the cheap old Craftsman first.  I admit that it's nowhere near as nice as the Toro for adjusting the snow trajectory but despite that, I'll go to if first simply because it works great and is much more fun.   I still wouldn't part with the 221 now that I have it.   The jury is still out on how long the 850 will last under the conditions it's seeing.  However, the more I use it, the more I trust it.   Chances are that I probably didn't "need" the 221.   Another factor that pushed me toward buying the Toro last year was the discontinuation of use of two cycle engines in their larger SS machines.   That alone was enough to make me buy one.

By the way, I went out and adjusted the tab that holds the governor spring on the TH139 engine in the MTD.  I fired the machine up and put the sirometer on it.  I was getting a solid 4100 rpm.  That would appear to be factory setting.  I bent the tab and dropped the idle speed to 3000 which is noticeably quieter and easier on the engine.      

Well, an engine swap is looking impractical. Before trying to take the cover off the Ariens, I looked up a bit of info on the crankshafts.

Thanks to the document trouts2 posted a few days ago (http://th.manualwebsite.com/pdf/engine_and_accessories_2001.pdf - a great resource!), I got some info on the crankshaft in the 850, which is 290614. The 600 has 290676. I can't specifically find interface details on 290676 (seems like it might have been a bit of a special for Ariens?). But the main diameters of the 600 and 850 crankshaft outputs are different. So I can't just swap the pulleys (the pulley styles are different between the two machines, ribbed belt vs V, so I also can't just leave them on the engines).

And the proper pulley half for an 850 engine in the SS522 (03801200) would be $30, and you need two halves. (by contrast, the pulley halves for the 600 engine are only $4 ea!). At $60 for a pulley, which may or may not actually fit the crankshaft geometry on the 850, swapping engines does not make any sense. I could buy a whole SS522 for not too much more.

Unfortunately a swap is not an option, but at least that provides direction- go through the Yardman and get it ready Make an engine mount, etc.

Checked the engine RPM of the 850 last night, it's set at 3900. I tried nudging the governor to speed it up. It's certainly quite a bit louder at 5000. It didn't sound bad, but I didn't feel like bringing it up to 6000 just yet. The engine starts quite readily. As I was running & shutting it down, it would fire up again with not even a half pull. It was 1 or 2 pulls (I forget which) when cold. Got the idler pulley's arm adjusted to try and align the pulleys as best I can, based on your good advice, borat. They were out of alignment as-is (no need to munch the belt).

Any engine that is sped up will make more noise.   I'm not keen or revving an engine when not under load.  I'll do it for brief bursts for testing purposes but that's generally it.  When working, you'll notice the engine doesn't seem as loud and changes it's tone.  Could be due to the load effecting back pressure and/or the snow absorbing some sound.  Either way, when working these HSK/TH engines seem to enjoy the higher rpms.   They certainly make serious power for their size and seem to be as "happy" as any two cycle engine I've owned. 

I'd never thought about it this way before, but in some ways, I'd imagine a governed 2-stroke (not a 4-stroke) could actually be seeing less wear at high RPMs & high load, vs high RPMs & no load. With a load applied, the governor opens the throttle significantly. That adds more gas, but it also brings more oil. So under full throttle, your engine is actually better lubricated than just sitting at that RPM. A fixed-RPM SS is a prime example for this, I suppose, since the RPM should be the same whether just warming up, or actually doing stuff. So, let that be a lesson- be kind to your 2-stroke, keep the paddles fed

In terms of noise, the snow would help absorb some sound. You're also doing stuff (not just focusing on the noise), you're *expecting* it to be doing more, and you're also not crouched by the exhaust (like I was last night ).