Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I turned the key on and have no spark from the plug or even the plug wire when turning over the engine

How do I know if it is the coil magneto or the xstar module magneto?

It is a model 38180

Broncman,

    Last night I went through some known good SSI coils and got no reading between ground and the end of the secondary.  Very puzzling.  After many hours of poking around it occurred to me that the boot end may not touch the primary wire but be close enough to be jumped by the spark.  That’s the case.

 

    By connecting an alligator clip to the kill tab on the coil (not the iron legs) and the other end to the boot end I could grab both the boot and the primary wire and twist them.  All the coils got a reading and most took a good deal of force to get it.  Five know good SSI coils would not give me a reading without forcing it.  By the way since the first five I pulled out all did the same thing.  It makes me think this is very common.

 

    Your coil may be good and as mentioned in the prior post and just be the boot connection.  It could also be a leak on primary wire to the engine. 

 

    Try the above and if it does not work Ed Stoller suggested this which I’ve never done.  Rip out the primary wire from the coil body.  Clean in there then try to get a reading.  If you don’t then the coil has an open.  If you do there should be a brass nail in the body the coil wire goes onto.  Solder it if you can.  Ed says that’s possible but I don’t see how as I think the insulation would be in the way.  Regardless get a new wire or test your old wire and install. 

 

    If you end up skunked it looks like your plan of ebay would take a while and tie up money.   The expensive coil is in scads of snowblowers and many more lawnmowers.  You could put it aside and wait for a clunker lawnmower to fall your way.  Shops have old mowers and Craigslist guys have piles they post about.

 

   Also, if your coil does get a reading (either of them) you still had intermittent spark.  The symptoms you described can happen with reversed polarity on the Magafire.  I don’t see how but guys have mentioned getting intermittent spark then changing polarity and the engine ran fine.  That’s one possibility.

 

    Another is weak magnets.  Briggs says the magnets should be strong enough to hold and no 10 flat head screwdriver to the magnet.  If your magnets went iffy they could be a problem.

 

    Just say your good coils went bad.  That may have been due to the three magnets.  ??  Before buying another coil you may want to give it a breather and think about all you’ve done before possibly blowing another coil if that’s what happened. 

 

    Which brings up that last point.  Your model and serial number machine does not have an SSI or Xstar per Toro drawings.  What’s the model number of your engine?   

trouts2;

Many excellent suggestions here and I thank you for all you efforts!  I will try as you recommended within the next couple of days.  The engine is model number 47PM1 with a SN of 504804.  Here is a photo of the $%!&$ engine.

   In post 39 I said to disregard earlier post 36.  Post 36 >is accurate< but I found the confusion.  When continuity/resistance testing it makes a difference in reading values if the module is on or off the engine. 

    When on the engine the coil iron will be grounded by it’s mounting bolts.  When on the bench the coil iron does not connect to anything,  Either way, using the iron legs is  not a good place to use as ground.

   Checking continuity and resistance values in non-CDI (SSI) coils is ok.  They are static passive components.  A CDI is transistorized and has an electronic trigger and lots of internal components so getting good resistance readings on a CDI coil only tells part of the coil condition.

   Re-reading what you have said about testing and how it ran intermittently it seems like you could have the wrong ground set on the electronic module or a bad spot on the primary wire or plug hood connection.  The engine is negative ground.  You’ve got to have an excellent ground connection on the module and kill wire.

THREE MAGNETS:

   I found on the net a guy installed a MagaFire II into a 47PM1 and it ran fine.  At first he had the ground wrong and it acted like yours.  Three magnets is no problem.

      On engine identification.  The Toro manuals do not mention the Suzuki 47PM1 for any of the 10 years run of model of Toro 38185.  They show the model as having points but mention 3 other Suzuki engines with CDI ignition but none are the 47PM1.  I checked my records and a few years ago I had a 38185 that had a 47PM1.

Hi trouts2;

I must re-read the posts.  I will try reversing the poles on the mega fire and see how that works when testing for spark.  Regarding the mega fire II mounting, one guy had a photo posted where he installed one.  He hung the module by the hole on the module.  The module itself was not mounted with a screw to any ground source.  Since the mega fire two has two wires coming from it, one of which is for ground, I would not think that the case of the mega fire II itself would have to be bolted to ground. 

Finally though, the plot thickens.  As I stated my flywheel has three magnets.  I tested them by touching them with a 3/8 inch steel rod.  I found one of the magnets to be weak.  The middle one was "very strong". The remaining one was also very weak.  It is almost as if the one in the center is as it should be and the ones on either side are intentionally weak?!?

I tried today to switch the connection on the megafire II module but I still got intermittent spark.  I then took the old coil and pulled out the spark plug wire.  It was very hard to do.  It came out though and I see the little pin inside of the hole on the coil.  I then checked for continuity between the red wire (which connects to the module) and the little pin.  I got good continuity...which I DID NOT get before when I checked between the red wire the and end of the spark plug wire.  Perhaps this is telling me that somewhere along the spark plug wire it was bad.

My plan is to buy a (new) spark plug wire, solder it to the little pin, and then fill the hole with epoxy or liquid electrical tape.  Below is the photo of the coil showing where I cut away a small part of the coil to allow room for soldering.

Broncman,

 

    Looks like you nailed it, great persistence.  Nice picture and neat job.  Hopefully you’ll have a working machine and a spare good coil.  Makes me wish I had the old coils I’ve tossed in the past.  You deserve a victory lap on this one.

Hi Guys;

Well, here is where I am at now.  I went to the auto parts store and picked up 1 spark plug wire with a boot at the end.  When I got home, I learned that the inner part of this wire was like a fiber, not actual wire.  Since you cant solder fiber, I ordered and received a spark plug wire which as an actual wire core.

I took one of the coils and soldered the wire to the coil and epoxied it all in.  I reinstalled the coil and got no spark...unless I actually held the spark plug center terminal to the engine block...what the $%^)_#&^$%???  Maybe the copper wire provided too much resistance.   I then took the remaining coil and pushed the fiber center plug wire onto the pin of the other coil and epoxied her in place.  I got good spark this time, but like before, it is an intermittent spark.

Since two of the three magnets on the flywheel are very weak, I guess I will proceed with trying to locate a different flywheel.  An ebay site called mowandsnow has many used parts including engines for the CCR2000.  I will check if they have a flywheel.  I would think that if the manufacturer put three magnets on a flywheel, they are there for a reason and all three should have roughly the same magnetism.

This summer I just rebuilt a 1978 Toro Snowmaster snowthrower.  It is just like the S200 only the model before.  I believe it has the same AH520 engine as the S200.  The thing was running like a dream after the rebuild.  Now it wont start.  At least it is throwing a spark though.  YIPEE.  And I thought all I would have to do this winter was work, take care of the house, continue on my Heald Super Bronc project, help the wife, shuttle the kids...

Its gotta be the coil on the CCR 2000 though, 'eh?

    Holding the plug against the block is not a great or reliable test.  It’s OK for a go no go indication of spark.  The machine is vibrating and holding the plug at a consistent distance too hard. 

 

    You have spark. It’s intermittent on two coils which you have tested without sparkplug wires and both test OK.  You replaced the sparkplug wire on both and get the same results, an intermittent spark by I think holding the plug to the engine.  If that’s the case I would not consider the spark to be intermittent yet.

 

   I would hook up a spark tester, run the electric start and if it was intermittent then I would consider spark to be intermittent.  I would grab the wire, tester and end connections to feel for a tingle indicating a leak. 

   BTW: Briggs has a spark tester that pretty good for about $15.  It’s flimsy, has electrodes enclosed in a window so you can put a black cloth in back and see the spark very well.  A cheaper alternative is two types of testers available from Harbor Freight from $1.50 - $4.00 depending on their being on sale and they usually are.  They have a post end which fits into the plug wire boot and the other a boot for the plug.  There’s an enclosed light of some sort inside a plastic case which is pretty bright when it gets triggered.  If you ran the electric start with one of these types of testers and got intermittent then it would be reliable.

 

   BUT,,,, it would not tell you the cause.   One intermittent coil is rare, two is a stretch to believe that both are bad so I would be thinking the cause someplace else. 

 

   You’ve sanded and cleaned all grounds and connections.  Put on dielectric grease and later cleaned that off.  So the guess is those are all OK.

 

    The magnets are suspect.  Briggs has the criteria of the magnets being able to hold a #10 flat head screwdriver to a magnet.  Another test is to just pass a screwdriver by the magnets and if the screwdriver deflects the magnets are considered good.  I don’t have a lot of experience with flywheel magnets but the usual problems are they loose polarity or the glue gives and they fall off.  The machine ran before and gets intermittent spark so I would not suspect the magnets unless you have dropped the flywheel from a significant height or touched your coil wires to a magnet when it was firing.  Those things probably did not happens so chances are very good the magnets are ok.

 

    What could be wrong at this point?

 

The pieces:

 

     You have suspected but unproven intermittent spark. 

      The coil bodies are ok.

      The magnets are ok.

      The installed wires are still not making good contact causing the intermittent.  Hard to believe.  You’ve gone through 4 plug wires on two coils with the same results.  So it’s probably not a bad connect at the coil body or the plug hood.   The plug wires are OK.

       The on/off switch is not in play so not a factor.

      The old and new ignition modules give the same results.  They are probably both OK.

 

      Left, is the fit of the gap.  At least for me it’s a hassle to get a gap right.  It takes me a long time and a lot of fussing around to get right, but it’s usually go no go never intermittent.

 

    I don’t think you have reinstalled either coil for a while.  Clean the magnets and coil legs and get the gap perfect.  I would get a Harbor Freight tester, install everything and see what you get.     

 

   If it were me and I had that machine and getting the same results you have been getting I would think that I had missed something and not seeing the obvious.  Continuing to work on problems like this usually don’t pan out so I put them aside and wait sometimes a month or two and start from scratch because what I did before was unreliable.

trouts2 wrote:

trouts2 wrote:

very good advice trouts!!!

maybe its a fuel issuse??