Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I turned the key on and have no spark from the plug or even the plug wire when turning over the engine

How do I know if it is the coil magneto or the xstar module magneto?

It is a model 38180

lm not sure exactly what your asking, l assume your machine wont start and it doesnt have spark, replace the spark plug first. check your kill swicth wire (there are several locations) and make sure there working proprerly and not grounding out some where, if that all checks out then your magneto is no good          need more help let me know

  i have seen those keyswitches go bad.  take an ohm meter and touch both terminals of switch.  open youll will get a reaDIng,  close the switch/ off   should read  ol  or zeros.     the best way to check the coil  is to isolate it.   by that i mean you will need to remove the blower housing.   remove the green ground wire from terminal on ignition coil.  with that removed  put blower housing back on and pull over and check for spark.  by doing this you eliminate any chance of the ground wire shorting out on the block somewhere.  if you have spark after thjis test the the ground wire is bad.  if you still have no spark  the coil is bad.    sounds like a lot of work but you need to double check the coil.

mech

thats what l was trying to say,  but your is easier to understand well said  lol

The key switch is good and I will remove the cover next to test the magneto/coil.  One question I have is how to test if it's either this brass 1.5"X1" box or the coil itself. 

The box is called the xstar module magneto it's around $140.00 and the coil is around $120.00 at this website.

http://www.rcpw.com/   the Toro is model 38180 and it shows a picture of what I am talking about.

Thanks for your replies.  I need to fix this thing before we get a storm on Sunday.  We just had 6 inches fall today in Albany it took me 3X longer to get home today and I left at 3:30.  The roads were a mess and a lot of people on the freeway.

l didn't reliaze that you hade a seperate igntion module l'm not exactly sure how to test that, but if l had to bet on it l would replace the module 90% sure.  maybe u should take it to a shop to make sure 140.00 dollaurs ain't  a cheap guess

  yes,  the only thing that mega fire does is to replace points and a condensor.  if you have an external "timimg" module  you cant overide that with this mega fire.   that suzuki engine with break your bank.  

FIXED!!!!!!!I had to scrape some paint to get a good ground and reverse the wires on the "universal" ignitor (Mega Fire II) $15.00 vs. $110.00 OEM

Blowin snow, thanks

I realize this post is old and Denny may no longer be on this board, but I had to ask.  I seem to have the same problem and the shop wanted about $140 for the Toro 81-0340
Xstar Module-Magneto.  Including labor it was pushing $200 and I only paid $75 for this eight years ago.  I just can't see putting that much into this machine so after reading this post I asked them to order the Stens Mega Fire II 440465 ignition module for $18 and I'll install it myself.  So if Denny is still out there or anyone else who has experience with this part, I'd like to know if it is durable in this application.

Which wiring method do I use, the negative ground or positive ground? See the wiring diagram at http://www.rcpw.com/kawasaki-ignition-coils-parts/440465.html.  Click on the 2nd thumbnail pic for the diagram.

Thanks!

(The machine in question is a 1987 Toro CCR2000, model 38180)

Update.  I bought the part mentioned in this thread, the Mega Fire II universal ignition module (http://www.rcpw.com/kawasaki-ignition-coils-parts/440465.html).  I actually got it from my local Toro shop.  I installed it with the negative ground wiring as shown in the installation diagram.  I decided to install the module up near the spark plug access cover instead of under the engine near the auger as the original part was.  Since I'm not sure of the durability of the part in this application, I wanted to make it easy to replace it if it fails.

From what I can tell, the original part (Toro Xstar Module-Magneto 81-0340) was grounded by its metal case with the two screws that held it to the engine block.  I grounded the new module with the included bare-end wire.  I clamped the bare wire (which I stripped to about 1") under the bolt holding the key switch ground wire.  I applied dielectric grease to all connections.  I'll secure the module body with a wire so it stays in place yet is isolated from engine heat and vibration.  It seems like the old module failed when the engine was hot and I figured minimizing vibration couldn't hurt.

I'll post pictures once I get it done if I can do it on this site.

Miller87,
Did the Mega Fire ii work for you? How does the engine run with it?  Curious to know if this $20 part really will replace a $140 Toro module.
Thanks

hosed, after installing the new module I started the engine a few times and from what I could tell, it ran the same as it always had.  I didn't blow any snow yet since I haven't put the shrouds back on yet.  I am going to put it all back together today and then give it a real test.  I'll post again.

In another post by Denny, I think on this site, he mentioned the key switch operated in the opposite way, but I did not find that in my case.  On is still on and off is off.

Ok, I put it all back together and so far it runs as well as ever.  I ran it to clear some fairly dense snow near the street that I shoveled off the high banks to widen the entrance and it worked great and started each time after I shut it off.  A huge frustration of the old module is that the engine would never start when the module was hot.  Pulling the spark plug and drying it with a lighter did seem to get it going, but what a pain that was so I would never shut it off until I was all done.  I wish I knew of this fix several years ago when it started acting up.

I'm no expert at this stuff, but so far I'm really happy with this module and I could buy seven of them for the cost of the Toro part.  Thanks, Denny, where ever you are!

I'll figure out how to post pics and do that next.

This picture shows the original part mounted on the bottom of the engne near the chute.  It's the small brass box in the middle of the pic.

This is the Mega Fire II module.  I used a twist tie to hang it from the wires up by the key switch plug.  After installing the control panel I verified that the wires didn't interfere with the pull cord etc.

The yellow arrow points to the ground wire for the new module clamped under the same bolt used to ground the key switch.  You can see how easy it would be to replace the module if needed.  I considered getting a ring type wire connector and I still might.  That's what the key switch ground wire uses.  I could have installed the new module in the factory location, but would have needed 1/4" longer screws and decided against that for the reasons I mentioned in previous posts.

Here's a link for a short vid of the machine running.

http://s852.photobucket.com/albums/ab90/miller87a/Toro%20CCR2000/?action=view&current=DSCF0168.flv

So that's about it.  I'll let you know if anything goes wrong.  I don't know the durability of this module, but since I mounted it for easy replacement, it will probably never fail, haha.

If anyone can explain how this part of the ignition system works, I'd like to hear it.  Thanks.

One more thing I wanted to mention on this is that when I could not get the engine to start last week I did check for spark by taking the plug out of the engine, putting it in the plug boot, grounding it to the engine and pulling the cord.  I did see a blue spark so I thought that was ok, however, it must not have been strong enough to ignite the fuel/air mixture under compression.  The hot engine starting issue along with the shop's suspicion of the module being the culprit made me quite sure this was the problem.

Miller87: Excellent write up on solving the problem. I have a 1989 CCR2000 with a similar problem.  It would run for 10 minutes and then quit running. Let it cool and it would run for a few minutes more. Sometimes it would sputter and quit (like a fuel problem) other times it would stop dead.  I got the Stens Mega Fire II module and installed it with the negative terminal to ground and the positive to the coil.  The machine ran. One caution, make sure that you have everything hooked up before firing up the engine. On my first test, I forgot to hook the key switch up (Doh!).  This did not present a problem with starting the engine, but I could not stop it!  Instead of grounding the ignition, I pulled the wire off the Spark Plug.  Big mistake, the engine stopped but I believe I blew the mega fire module as the engine now would not start.   I hooked up the old Xstar module and was able to get the engine to start.  I bought another Megafire module and mounted it like miller87 described.  I was going to mount mine where the old Xstar module was mounted but decided that miller87's approach was a lot better. You have access if you need to replace it and also the Xstar module was mounted in a hard to get to spot.  This solution may work on other CCR2000s with  no or weak spark. For $20 shipped, I was willing to take a chance. (The Toro dealer wanted $140 special order, no returns for the Xstar module so even if I have to replace the Megafire every year or two, I'd rather do that considering the age of my unit. )  Later CCR2000 had the ignition module built into the coil so you need to check which version you have before you try this solution.  I also cleaned the carburator (kind of needed it after 20 years). Now my snowthrower is running like a new one. Now I can be sure there will be no more snow this year.

This message was modified Mar 13, 2010 by hosed

I had a friends ccr2000 that would run but always backfire. I asked around and was told that if it stays running the moduale was good, but I had a feeling that was the problem and wasn't spending 140 dollars on a hunch. Thanks to this tread I tried a universal ignition module from oregon (part #33-053) that I keep on hand and it runs great now. I did silicone around the wires on the unit for extra protection being this is a snowblower. Thanks to all in this tread for taking the time to share your findings.

Eighteen dollars vs. $140.00 for a Toro piece???? 

What do you figure?   $130.00 mark up?  Unbelievable!!!

l use these modules alot with older engines that have points that go bad, its a cheaper fix for the customer and a ton more reliable. l personally have NEVER seen one go bad yet.

As of yesterday, I had similar problems. No spark. Tried a new spark plug and that did not work. The writeups and advise on this post have been invaluable. Thanks everyone. Miller87's pics and summary were very helpful. I followed the same proceedures and actually ordered the stens module from the same supplier. The machine had never run this well since I purchased it ten years ago for 40 dollars. Sadly, after ten minutes of running, it quit as if the key had been turned to off. I pulled the spark plug and there is no spark again. Can these modules blow out that quickly? Could a bad coil cause it to fail? I clipped the wire from the old ignition module and used the wire nut provided to tie it the new wire. I used the negative wiring diagram for the module. Perhaps it's a defective module? Thanks for any thoughts or ideas. Mark

Denny wrote: Jan 25 2011
Denny, The xstar module went south on my 1992 Toro CCR2000 snowblower and after reading about your fix I also installed a Mega Fire II. The machine started right up. I ran it about five minutes,seems good. The next time I blow snow will be a better test. Actually it was this sight that led me to my problem. Thanks to all. 

Blew snow yesterday with that little Toro for about a half hour after installing a $20 Stens Mega Fire II module. Ran great ,seems good.

Where do I order this mega fire II and how do I replace it?  My twenty year old CCR2000 will not restart after using it for a while until it gets cold again........All I have ever done to this machine is change the plug every year and replace the paddles once. Thanks

   Crapping out after running or a while and having to wait for cool-down to restart is typical with a bad plug.  You just might get away with a plug replacement

New plug every year..............same result. Runs great as long as I don't try to restart after running it for twenty minutes or so. I have gotten used to doing the entire drive way and walks without stopping. Still would like to know about ordering the replacement module and any tips about installing it. Thanks again.

   Have you tried testing for spark after gettnig hot and no restart?

trouts2 wrote:
I have a spark plug tester and when the Toro won't start after running for a while I get no spark across the gap also no spark from the wire to the plug. Still would like to know where to order the module and any tips on how to install it.

Hi fellas;

If anyone is still out here with some ideas, I sure could use your input!

I have become the lawnmower/snowblower repair guy for the guys at work.  I am about 99.9% successful with my repairs but this one has stumped me.  A friend gave me his Toro CCR 2000 snowblower for repair because the local shop wanted 600+ for repairs.  It is the 38185 with serial number 2001010.

No spark here.  I checked and cleaned all connections and re assembled with dielectric tune up grease.  Switch is ok.  I checked the ig modulator with a multi meter and got continuity (which I am assuming is a good thing).  Any way, I purchased a mega star II ignition module and put it in place of the original module.  Still no spark.  (spark plug is good though).  I checked the coil by placing my multi meter from the red wire of the coil to the spark plug terminal.  NO continuity.  I located and bought a used coil from a local shop for $55 .  Yippie...I got spark.  I then put it all back together.  (I had also cleaned the carb and replaced several parts there in).  She started on the first pull!  It ran excellent for 30 seconds and then quit.  No more spark.  I took everything apart again and found the module still had continuity but the coil did not (when I checked from the red wire to the spark plug terminal). 

How could that coil go shot so quickly?  I just hate to junk the machine.  I saw on ebay a coil/modulator combo for about $75.  I dont mind spending that but I also do not know if it is worth the risk.  That may go shot real quick.  What are your thoughts guys?  Thanks very much.

Not sure how much to believe your story about $600 repair cost when you can buy a brand new one (Toro 418) for around $350 with 2 year warranty.

broncman wrote:

l would first Double check the small wire that goes to ground from coil and make sure u have a GOOD and CLEAN bare metal connection there....also lve have replaced alot of those kill switchs so that may be your issuse... clean the ground connection and disconnect the kill switch then see if u got spark...if not u got a bad coil....l dont recall having to replace a coil on that motor before... and the odds of another coil going bad seems unlikely but it happens...

Yeah, I am afraid its true about the $600.  They wanted to install a new coil and a new module.  The new coil goes for about $185 plus their markup and I guess the new module for about $150 plus their mark up (close to 400) and probably 2-3 hours labor for another couple hundred.  They charged him $165 for a ariens 5 hp carb rebuild!  Plus my buddy stated it ran better last year than it does now.  Maybe I will just give him an S200 from my collection!

Thanks Niper99...I will double check the ground connection and isolate the switch again.  If I take the switch out of the mix, hopefully I will see a spark.  That would be a wonderful, easy fix!  I will make sure to sand down any paint on the flywheel cover and I will install a new bolt which holds the ground wire against the flywheel cover.  It does seem odd that a working coil would go shot so fast.  The thing that makes me think it is the coil is that when I try to establish continuity with the multi meter (from the red wire on the coil to the spark plug terminal), I get nothing.   Thanks for the suggestions.

broncman wrote:
I've never seen this coil before, so "the red wire" doesn't mean anything to me, sorry. What is the red wire? Is it the wire that leaves the coil, going to the spark plug connector? As in you think there's a break within the wire, between the coil and the plug?

This one is a Rotary 8786 from Tulsaenginewarehouse for 12 bucks. Also known as Nova II.

Niper99, check me on this,

   The module has two tangs.   Regardless of color one tang is positive, the other tang negative.  Depending on your grounding one lead goes to the coil wire (the one cut away from the ponts) and the other to ground.     Done.

   If  a stop switch is included how it gets wired could vary slightly. 

   The non-grounded wire from the tang could go to the switch then to the coil.  So the switch would create an open or connection.

   The non-grounded wire from the tang could connect with a wire nut.  From there one wire run to the coil and one to one side of the stop switch.  The other side of the stop swith would go to ground.

     Again depending on your ground being plus or minus one tang is grounded and the other wired as above.  Not for use with battery start engines or flywheels with multiple magnets. 

Thanks for the input guys.  Later today, I will triple check to get good clean connections and temporarily take the switch out of the mix.  I had bought the Mega Fire II Ignition Module.  The info on this module did not state that it would not work on flywheels with three magnets (this machine has 3 magnets).  My spark plug is good and shows continuity.  I wired the module just like the instructions previously posted showed.  Hopefully my photo has posted.  My coil shows continuity between the (partially red) coil wire and the coil arm.  However there is no continuity between the coil arm and the plug and no continuity between the coil wire and the plug.  I think this means the coil has gone bad.  This week I will have to track down another coil.  Say, the mega fire instructions show one wire being grounded with a screw through the hole on the mega fire and then to the engine.  Must the actual metal case of the mega fire be grounded too, or just the ground wire of the mega fire?  I would not think so since the mega fire has a ground wire coming out of it.  The machine was running excellent (for about 30 seconds).  I will keep the forum posted with updates.

Below shows the armature or iron core.  The coil is electriclly isolated from the core.  Yhe test leads as shown should read zero ohms.

Below 24 is the armature or core.  No connection to anything.  48 is the trigger coil for the transistor controlling the low tension side of the coil at 36.  The magnet loads it's flux into the iron core (24) and induces a current on the output side of the coil (86)  The armature core is usually mounted to the engine by a bolt so grounded.  If you get no reading between the armature and the sparkplug end that's good.  You got a reading to the other wire.  Where does that go? 

   The Mega fire case tab should be grounded.  Most directions show the ground wire going on top of the tab and both screwed into the engine, grounding both.  The tab gets grounded and the wire on top gets its ground from the tab.  You’d have to have a physical and electrical schematic to be sure but that’s the way a few makers show them connected.

 

   Megafire and Megafire II directions are different over time but both say both won’t work with multiple magnets or nothing about magnets.  Multiple magnets do not make sence with the design.

   BUT people have success with multiple magnets…...  Depending on when the magnets cross the coil in the timing cycle people get lucky and it will fire properly and either not fire on the following magnets as it’s not ready or be firing into an unloaded combustion chamber to no effect.

 

Testing:

     Generally speaking you could look at the black coil module in the picture you posted as a whole and the two things sticking down could be called arms or legs.  The could be called the arms or legs of the coil when talking about the whole lump of the black thing, the solid state ignition. 

 

   BUT… The coil arm you mentioned is really the arm or leg of the iron core and not specifically the coil in the electrical sense.  It’s isolated from the coil windings, does not touch the coil windings and does not pass current to them directly by contact.  The flux generated by the magnet, gathered and directed by the iron core induces a current in the coil through the air, no touching.   You won’t get a continuity reading from the iron core to any wire unless it goes to ground as the iron core is bolted to the engine.

 

   For regular coils when they talk about resistance testing from the “leg” of the primary to the other side they are talking about going from coil lead wires not the core.  The same for resistance checks on the high tension side.  The  

  

    You got no reading from the core to the spark plug.  I think that’s ok.  I’m not sure about the other wire.  Where did that wire connect?  Unless it connects to ground there should not be continuity to thr iron core arm/leg.

    Once you get the molule mounted you can test by just spinning thr flywheel by hand for spark.

 

   A guy who’s really good at SSI’s is Ed Stoller his website is at  http://home.earthlink.net/~edstoller/

 

   He’s available at the Tecumseh reflector or used to be. He’s a great guy and about the most savvy guy on the net on SSI’s.  If you email to the adder below and he’s around he’d be a big help.

 

    tecumseh_engine_group@yahoogroups.com

Wow trouts2!  Thanks for all that detail.  I know a lot about carb rebuilds, tunes ups etc., but very little about coils.  So that makes a lot of sense that the legs I see are multiple pieces of iron sandwiched together with nothing touching them except where they bolt to the engine.  Setting aside the spark plug wire, there are two wires coming out of the side of the coil.  A small 18-20 gauge yellow wire.  This wire is screwed directly to one of the iron "legs".  The other wire is a 18-20 gauge red wire which connects to the mega fire II ignition module.

I see how the iron core is isolated as you said.  Because of this, as you said, I should get no readings on my basic multi meter when I touch the iron core and any other wire.  This would then include iron core to spark plug terminal and iron core to primary wire (the red wire I keep mentioning) which connects up to the ignition module. 

Would the spark plug wire be connected somehow inside of the winding to this (red) primary wire which goes to the module?  I am not getting a continuity reading when I touch spark plug wire to the primary (red) wire.  This is shown in the lower photo. 

Based upon what you have said, I should NOT get a reading from this primary (red) wire to the iron core.  But I am getting a reading here (as indicated in the top picture).  (short red wire turns into black wire which is the primary wire that connects to the module).  Both the original coil and now (after my 30 second run time) have identical multi-meter readings.

Thank you very much for your time and effort in this diagnosis.

Photo 1 did not load but it shows I am getting continuity from the iron core to the primary wire which connects to the module.

Brocman,
    I please excuse some mis-information above.  Here's the corrections:

1. Your coil has a primary and secondary.  The secondary is also the kill wire. 

2. The spark plug end and the secondary ends outside run internally through coils the other side of which go to ground.

3.  The resistance on the secondary to any ground should be .8 to 1.1 ohms. 

4. The resistance on the primary to any ground should be 5800 to 7940 ohms.

   You had been checking from primary to the spark plug which is a short test.  Do the above two tests on both coils and see what you get for values.

   You posted above that you put in the MegaFire "to replace the original".  The 38180 did come with an XStar module.  Your 381185 did not.  It had points.  ?? Confused by that.

Comparing the MegaFire to XStar.
 
   The XStar module bolted to ground and had one lead which runs to the secondary/kill wire of the coil.  So it's a module with one lead that connects to the primary.

   The MegaFire and other generic modeuls areabout the same.  They have a couple of leads so it can be connected to a positive or negative grounded system.  Not a big deal.  Depending on the ground one of the module tabs gets wired to ground.   With one tab wire connected to ground that leaves one tab wire and that one is connected just like an XStar.

   The picture of the Rotary module setup is good for the MegaFire II.

Flywheels and magnet count:

   The 38180 was made to have an electronic module.  Your 38185 was not.  The flywheels are different part numbers.  You say yours had three magnets and Denny said his had three.  The XStar was meant to run with three magnets.  MegaFire says not to use their module with multi magnet flywheels but guys do that and they work.  Yours may work or it may have blown your coil although I doubt it did.  I'd guess your second coil is good.

   I'd retest both coils on the machine.   Connect the coil and points up without the MegaFire and turn the flywheel magnets sharply past the coil and check for spark.   I put my finger on the sparkplug cap end to ground and feel for a spark.  Wash your finger first as there may be enough dirt to block flow.  Check both your coils.  If you get spark then connect up the MegaFire without going through the stop switch and you should be ok.  If that works wire in the stop switch.  

Below is the 38180.  Blow that is the 38185, no XStar.  ??  Note the XStar has one lead.  The primary splits and would go to ground and the other wire probably to an on/off or kill switch.

 

well i think where making this diagnioses a bit complicated.....lots of good info given which is good but also complicates things alot!!... the system is very simple to diagnose... no mutli meters required... like i mentioned before make sure u have a good connection on the "red wire" to ground....disconnect the kill switch.....and since u had the coil off my sure it gapped at .010-.012... and if u have a adjustable spark tester set it to at least a 1/4 gap...then test...if theres no spark the coil is no good... no more testing needed...

as far as adding a aftermarket module which is fine when your replacing it on a points system (i have used ALOT of these modules with 100% success) ...but when your installing it on a magneto coil (electronic) the module is inside the coil so if the module inside the coil go for a $#%*, then the wire coming outta the coil (red wire) is just the ground for that module inside (which is also connected to your kill switch)...so if the module "(switch)" in side the coil get stuck ON then u can add an aftermarket module kit and it will work..although if the module "(switch)" becomes open (no connection) then an aftermarket module will not work.. hope this makes sense...

Thank you guys for all your input!  This dog gone thing has become somewhat of a quest.  Like I said earlier, I hate to throw away a good machine.  I have seen a coil/module combo on ebay for about $75.  That would be my final effort.

Here is the latest that I have done.  As I stated, last week I bought a used coil.  I also bought a mega fire II ignition module.  The other day I installed everything and got good spark. I then put it all back together and it ran for 30 seconds and quit.  Thats when I started posting on this forum.  Following all these wonderful suggestions for you guys that have donated so much of your time, I carefully cleaned all connections real good.  I took some fine emery paper and lightly sanded all areas that had electrical to metal connections.  I also took some lacquer thinner and wiped all dirt and dielectric tune up grease I had applied to any connections.  I did this thinking that it may have some how been forming some kind of barrier.

I should re-iterate that the flywheel has 3 MAGNETS on it.

Tonight I reinstalled everything and gaped the coil with the recommended business card.     Wire was installed from coil to mega fire II ignition module.     Wire then installed from ignition module to good ground.    NO SWITCH WIRED IN AT THIS TIME.     I then filed and cleaned an edge of an engine cooling fin to hold the spark plug against.    I plugged in the electric starter and while holding the spark plug against the filed cooling fin, I got INTERMITTENT SPARK (although I did not get "zapped" when holding the plug wire).  It would spark for a few seconds quite aggressively and then stop sparking.   It sort of looked like a big thick spark.  Sort of bigger than a normal spark you would see.   Returning say five minutes later, it would spark again and then stop sparking.   I have the plug gaped at about .030-.032. 

Unfortunately I do not know what to guess at this point.  Perhaps the module.   Since I am getting a real good spark now, I am leaning towards the module and not the coil.  Could a coil throw an intermittent spark?    Perhaps I should buy a different aftermarket module?

Hopefully it posts, but below is a photo of the exact setup as removed from the engine of this 38185  sn 2001010.  Notice the module in the photo.  Brand new that baby goes for $125 +.  This is the one I replaced with the mega fire II.

broncman wrote:

ok pictures are good:))..... with that setup in the picture its wired exactly the same way with the replacement module... so the wire coming from the coil goes to the POSTIVE side of the replacement module and of course the other goes to ground side... now personally i would NOT use a business card as a measuring tool becuase business cards vary in thickness alot...and lve repaired more than a few coils gaps being out of adjustment in the past from customers using business cards...i did one this summer that had a gap of .045.. customer said he was told to use a business to gap it... bad idea that machine would not start...all i did was re gap to .012 and it started right up.... so its important to get the right gap set.. set the gap at .010-.015..

as far as having spark then it stops is unusual...maybe your replacement module isnt working properely??...but first get the gap within spec..then if no change i would try another module..

i was just reading up on these modules.... and aparently they will work on 1 or 2 magnet flywheels.... so if yours is has three thats most likely going to be a issuse... need to read more havent ran into this issuse before...of cousre i cant remeber if ive ever installed a module on a three magnet flywheel before... hmmm something to be concerned with for sure..

If you don't have feeler gauges, a sheet of paper is often about 0.003-0.004" thick. You could try a few sheets of paper to try for a 0.012" gap. You could also temporarily try setting the spark plug gap really small (maybe 0.010") just to see if the spark became more consistent.

>>>Could a coil throw an intermittent spark?   

    Yes.  Can happend with a small open in the primary winding.

>>>Perhaps I should buy a different aftermarket module?

    No.  Without a reading from ground to the spark plug end of the coil other parts won't make any difference.  The coil is defective.  If a new module does then your meter is defective. 

    The coil secondary is a single wire from the sparkplug end, wound many times around the iron core then to ground.  The reading you should get from the sparkplug end to ground is 5800 to 7940 ohms.  You get zero and intermittant spark.  That indicates the coil is defective and has a break in the coil wire.   Since your getting intermittant spark the spark is juming the open sometimes and sometimes it dosen't.  That happens at times and not unusual.  The induced voltage is very high and jumping an open not that difficult. 

    A possibility that give the symptoms is a bad connection from the primary coil to the sprk plug hood.     

If the coil is going to be junked anyhow, could he maybe try cutting off the wire that goes to the plug, near the coil, and replacing it somehow? If it's just 1 layer of insulation (does not also have a shield around it or something), could a small area of insulation be stripped off near the coil, then the wire checked for continuity to the plug while wiggling the wire? That might be a way to see if there's simply a break in the wire?

Hello guys;

I think I will just bite the bullet and contact/order from the guy on ebay who has the coil/module as a set.  I have ordered from him before and he is reliable.  This will be my last shot.  If it does not work, then I will tell my buddy his machine is dead.  I will then take the machine apart, list on ebay, and try to recover my losses.  I'll let you know what happens.  THEN, I will try a little disecting of one of the bad coils!

Broncman,

    Last night I went through some known good SSI coils and got no reading between ground and the end of the secondary.  Very puzzling.  After many hours of poking around it occurred to me that the boot end may not touch the primary wire but be close enough to be jumped by the spark.  That’s the case.

 

    By connecting an alligator clip to the kill tab on the coil (not the iron legs) and the other end to the boot end I could grab both the boot and the primary wire and twist them.  All the coils got a reading and most took a good deal of force to get it.  Five know good SSI coils would not give me a reading without forcing it.  By the way since the first five I pulled out all did the same thing.  It makes me think this is very common.

 

    Your coil may be good and as mentioned in the prior post and just be the boot connection.  It could also be a leak on primary wire to the engine. 

 

    Try the above and if it does not work Ed Stoller suggested this which I’ve never done.  Rip out the primary wire from the coil body.  Clean in there then try to get a reading.  If you don’t then the coil has an open.  If you do there should be a brass nail in the body the coil wire goes onto.  Solder it if you can.  Ed says that’s possible but I don’t see how as I think the insulation would be in the way.  Regardless get a new wire or test your old wire and install. 

 

    If you end up skunked it looks like your plan of ebay would take a while and tie up money.   The expensive coil is in scads of snowblowers and many more lawnmowers.  You could put it aside and wait for a clunker lawnmower to fall your way.  Shops have old mowers and Craigslist guys have piles they post about.

 

   Also, if your coil does get a reading (either of them) you still had intermittent spark.  The symptoms you described can happen with reversed polarity on the Magafire.  I don’t see how but guys have mentioned getting intermittent spark then changing polarity and the engine ran fine.  That’s one possibility.

 

    Another is weak magnets.  Briggs says the magnets should be strong enough to hold and no 10 flat head screwdriver to the magnet.  If your magnets went iffy they could be a problem.

 

    Just say your good coils went bad.  That may have been due to the three magnets.  ??  Before buying another coil you may want to give it a breather and think about all you’ve done before possibly blowing another coil if that’s what happened. 

 

    Which brings up that last point.  Your model and serial number machine does not have an SSI or Xstar per Toro drawings.  What’s the model number of your engine?   

trouts2;

Many excellent suggestions here and I thank you for all you efforts!  I will try as you recommended within the next couple of days.  The engine is model number 47PM1 with a SN of 504804.  Here is a photo of the $%!&$ engine.

   In post 39 I said to disregard earlier post 36.  Post 36 >is accurate< but I found the confusion.  When continuity/resistance testing it makes a difference in reading values if the module is on or off the engine. 

    When on the engine the coil iron will be grounded by it’s mounting bolts.  When on the bench the coil iron does not connect to anything,  Either way, using the iron legs is  not a good place to use as ground.

   Checking continuity and resistance values in non-CDI (SSI) coils is ok.  They are static passive components.  A CDI is transistorized and has an electronic trigger and lots of internal components so getting good resistance readings on a CDI coil only tells part of the coil condition.

   Re-reading what you have said about testing and how it ran intermittently it seems like you could have the wrong ground set on the electronic module or a bad spot on the primary wire or plug hood connection.  The engine is negative ground.  You’ve got to have an excellent ground connection on the module and kill wire.

THREE MAGNETS:

   I found on the net a guy installed a MagaFire II into a 47PM1 and it ran fine.  At first he had the ground wrong and it acted like yours.  Three magnets is no problem.

      On engine identification.  The Toro manuals do not mention the Suzuki 47PM1 for any of the 10 years run of model of Toro 38185.  They show the model as having points but mention 3 other Suzuki engines with CDI ignition but none are the 47PM1.  I checked my records and a few years ago I had a 38185 that had a 47PM1.

Hi trouts2;

I must re-read the posts.  I will try reversing the poles on the mega fire and see how that works when testing for spark.  Regarding the mega fire II mounting, one guy had a photo posted where he installed one.  He hung the module by the hole on the module.  The module itself was not mounted with a screw to any ground source.  Since the mega fire two has two wires coming from it, one of which is for ground, I would not think that the case of the mega fire II itself would have to be bolted to ground. 

Finally though, the plot thickens.  As I stated my flywheel has three magnets.  I tested them by touching them with a 3/8 inch steel rod.  I found one of the magnets to be weak.  The middle one was "very strong". The remaining one was also very weak.  It is almost as if the one in the center is as it should be and the ones on either side are intentionally weak?!?

I tried today to switch the connection on the megafire II module but I still got intermittent spark.  I then took the old coil and pulled out the spark plug wire.  It was very hard to do.  It came out though and I see the little pin inside of the hole on the coil.  I then checked for continuity between the red wire (which connects to the module) and the little pin.  I got good continuity...which I DID NOT get before when I checked between the red wire the and end of the spark plug wire.  Perhaps this is telling me that somewhere along the spark plug wire it was bad.

My plan is to buy a (new) spark plug wire, solder it to the little pin, and then fill the hole with epoxy or liquid electrical tape.  Below is the photo of the coil showing where I cut away a small part of the coil to allow room for soldering.

Broncman,

 

    Looks like you nailed it, great persistence.  Nice picture and neat job.  Hopefully you’ll have a working machine and a spare good coil.  Makes me wish I had the old coils I’ve tossed in the past.  You deserve a victory lap on this one.

Hi Guys;

Well, here is where I am at now.  I went to the auto parts store and picked up 1 spark plug wire with a boot at the end.  When I got home, I learned that the inner part of this wire was like a fiber, not actual wire.  Since you cant solder fiber, I ordered and received a spark plug wire which as an actual wire core.

I took one of the coils and soldered the wire to the coil and epoxied it all in.  I reinstalled the coil and got no spark...unless I actually held the spark plug center terminal to the engine block...what the $%^)_#&^$%???  Maybe the copper wire provided too much resistance.   I then took the remaining coil and pushed the fiber center plug wire onto the pin of the other coil and epoxied her in place.  I got good spark this time, but like before, it is an intermittent spark.

Since two of the three magnets on the flywheel are very weak, I guess I will proceed with trying to locate a different flywheel.  An ebay site called mowandsnow has many used parts including engines for the CCR2000.  I will check if they have a flywheel.  I would think that if the manufacturer put three magnets on a flywheel, they are there for a reason and all three should have roughly the same magnetism.

This summer I just rebuilt a 1978 Toro Snowmaster snowthrower.  It is just like the S200 only the model before.  I believe it has the same AH520 engine as the S200.  The thing was running like a dream after the rebuild.  Now it wont start.  At least it is throwing a spark though.  YIPEE.  And I thought all I would have to do this winter was work, take care of the house, continue on my Heald Super Bronc project, help the wife, shuttle the kids...

Its gotta be the coil on the CCR 2000 though, 'eh?

    Holding the plug against the block is not a great or reliable test.  It’s OK for a go no go indication of spark.  The machine is vibrating and holding the plug at a consistent distance too hard. 

 

    You have spark. It’s intermittent on two coils which you have tested without sparkplug wires and both test OK.  You replaced the sparkplug wire on both and get the same results, an intermittent spark by I think holding the plug to the engine.  If that’s the case I would not consider the spark to be intermittent yet.

 

   I would hook up a spark tester, run the electric start and if it was intermittent then I would consider spark to be intermittent.  I would grab the wire, tester and end connections to feel for a tingle indicating a leak. 

   BTW: Briggs has a spark tester that pretty good for about $15.  It’s flimsy, has electrodes enclosed in a window so you can put a black cloth in back and see the spark very well.  A cheaper alternative is two types of testers available from Harbor Freight from $1.50 - $4.00 depending on their being on sale and they usually are.  They have a post end which fits into the plug wire boot and the other a boot for the plug.  There’s an enclosed light of some sort inside a plastic case which is pretty bright when it gets triggered.  If you ran the electric start with one of these types of testers and got intermittent then it would be reliable.

 

   BUT,,,, it would not tell you the cause.   One intermittent coil is rare, two is a stretch to believe that both are bad so I would be thinking the cause someplace else. 

 

   You’ve sanded and cleaned all grounds and connections.  Put on dielectric grease and later cleaned that off.  So the guess is those are all OK.

 

    The magnets are suspect.  Briggs has the criteria of the magnets being able to hold a #10 flat head screwdriver to a magnet.  Another test is to just pass a screwdriver by the magnets and if the screwdriver deflects the magnets are considered good.  I don’t have a lot of experience with flywheel magnets but the usual problems are they loose polarity or the glue gives and they fall off.  The machine ran before and gets intermittent spark so I would not suspect the magnets unless you have dropped the flywheel from a significant height or touched your coil wires to a magnet when it was firing.  Those things probably did not happens so chances are very good the magnets are ok.

 

    What could be wrong at this point?

 

The pieces:

 

     You have suspected but unproven intermittent spark. 

      The coil bodies are ok.

      The magnets are ok.

      The installed wires are still not making good contact causing the intermittent.  Hard to believe.  You’ve gone through 4 plug wires on two coils with the same results.  So it’s probably not a bad connect at the coil body or the plug hood.   The plug wires are OK.

       The on/off switch is not in play so not a factor.

      The old and new ignition modules give the same results.  They are probably both OK.

 

      Left, is the fit of the gap.  At least for me it’s a hassle to get a gap right.  It takes me a long time and a lot of fussing around to get right, but it’s usually go no go never intermittent.

 

    I don’t think you have reinstalled either coil for a while.  Clean the magnets and coil legs and get the gap perfect.  I would get a Harbor Freight tester, install everything and see what you get.     

 

   If it were me and I had that machine and getting the same results you have been getting I would think that I had missed something and not seeing the obvious.  Continuing to work on problems like this usually don’t pan out so I put them aside and wait sometimes a month or two and start from scratch because what I did before was unreliable.

trouts2 wrote:

trouts2 wrote:

very good advice trouts!!!

maybe its a fuel issuse??

"maybe its a fuel issuse??"

Now that would be a Homer Simpson moment wouldn't it?   If it's a fuel issue, that can be established easily enough.  Pour some gasoline into the spark plug hole, put the plug back, wire on and give it a tug.  If it fires and runs for a couple seconds, it's a fuel issue.

Yeah, use mixed gas, like borat said. When I was initially troubleshooting my SS with a plugged carb, I was using starting fluid and carb cleaner. Neither was a good idea, since they don't provide lubrication (even worse, the carb cleaner tries to flush off any residual oil). What I should have been using was mixed gas, either poured in, or I've considered putting some in a spray bottle. The risk I see with a spray bottle would be getting gas mist airborne. One spark and you could potentially have it go BANG in your face. I did change to using mixed gas poured into the carb, but I should have used that right from the start

Given everything you've been through with the ignition, I kind of hope for your sake that it *is* a fuel issue, so you can get this resolved. Personally, unless you can get a flywheel fairly cheaply, I don't know that I would go as far as you have, chasing the problem. I admire your persistence, good luck!

Niper99,

    It’s sure looking like that.  It could easily be that he’s fixed one problem and unmasked another which may have been created when he cleaned the carb.

 

From above:

    I located and bought a used coil from a local shop for $55 .  Yippie...I got spark.  I then put it all back together.  (I had also cleaned the carb and replaced several parts there in).  She started on the first pull!  It ran excellent for 30 seconds and then quit.  No more spark.

 

   From this point on or shortly after the electrical problem could have been fixed but dregs remained blocking the main jet.  His primer seems to be fine and it starts and runs reliably.

 

   He could put it back together, fire it up and keep punching the primer.  I bet it will run.  On the remote possibility it doesn’t then I’d get a spark tester and put it in line and run again. The tester should still flicker after the engine dies but still rotating.  If not then he really does have intermittent spark.

 

Gentlemen,

Stopped by a local repair shop this morning (where I purchased the used coil).  He is going to see if he has a used flywheel I can try which has 3 strong magnets on it.  One would think that if 3 magnets are installed, they all should have a strong "pull" to them...not just one of the three. 

I must buy a briggs spark tester though!  What I am seeing is this.  When I hold the spark plug to the engine block, I will engage the electric starter for say 5-8 seconds.  During this time, I will see a good spark but then it stops sparking after a second or two.  Subsequent attempts will simply result in a "wimpy" spark or no spark at all.

Here is an interesting link regarding magnets on flywheels which I found on a search:

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60985

Hmmm, that was an interesting read. FWIW, you can get neodymium (rare earth) magnets off eBay. I also found some at the hardware store. Those are likely the type used in hard drives, referred to in that link. Just as another option, if you don't have a hard drive you can disassemble. I can't imagine that the magnets in drives can be very large, either. The heads are very small, and need to be able to move very quickly. So I'd expect you could substitute another source for powerful magnets.

It sure sounds worth a shot. You have tried closing the plug gap way down, right? To, say, 0.010" or so? Might show whether or not you can still maintain a spark that way. Is it possible that, while cranking, the plug starts to move around and loses good contact with the block, hence losing the visible spark? Could you try something like grounding a bare-ended wire under an engine bolt, then securely attaching the other bare end to the threads of the plug, and see what you observe then?

>>>One would think that if 3 magnets are installed, they all should have a strong "pull" to them...not just one of the three.

   Not necessairly.  It could be they are different for timing, field shaping or varying strength.  One could be a weaker (cheaper) magnet for a tickler field to trigger the transistor.  Could be anything or exactly as you think.  Your getting a nice fat spark consistantly is not due to weak magnets.

I have not yet made any substantial progress on this machine.  I did see a flywheel on ebay that I was interested in purchasing.  I asked the seller if all three magnets on the flywheel he was selling for the CCR2000 had basically the same magnetic pull.  He stated that the middle one is the magnet and the outer two are just blanks.  Well there you have it I guess. 

I have 2 of these toro's that have been great. Last week I went to start one (38180)and it just wasn't feeling right. After about 10 aggressive pulls the rope came out...ugggg. Back into the garage I removed the pull cover and fix the cord. A few more pulls and I surrender to the fact that it's not going to start. Long story short..no spark. I checked all as mentioned, kill switch, spark plug, fly wheel gap etc. No luck with an unknown ign module I had in a draw and the other unit (38185) doesnt have a module I can borrow. My readings from the coil assembly are 1.1ohms and 11.4k ohms. In earlier post i read a max of just under 8k ohms for the primary. Is 11.4k out of range? I want to be sure before I purchase any parts. Thanks. Note: This flywheel has a single magnet and is very strong.

   The low reading is on the primary.  The high on the secondary.  Over 8 is high.  You mentioned going over everything so just a reminder that many people replace coils for problems in the sparkplug wire and boot.  You've probably already tried connecting one lead to the ground lead and worked the other inside the plug boot while twisting the boot/wire connection to check for a resistance change.  Before tossing it you might do what's the other poster tried as a last resort of pulling the plug wire from the body & etc....

i guess at this point it cant hurt to do a little dissecting on the spark plug wire now. will post findings.

I was wondering why the service manual list the same engine, 47P, for both my ccr2000's but yet they are different.

Well, its finally over guys!!  I waited and waited and found a coil and module used on ebay for a real good price ($30).  I removed the second coil upon which I had attached the new spark plug wire.  In its place, I installed the new ebay coil and gapped 'er to .011.  I attached the module to the rewind starter cowling.  Now this module is one of the original gold colored modules.  I gapped the plug to .030.  I did not even check for spark at this point.  I figured it sparks, great.  If not, the machine is going next to the garbage can for the local scrappers to pick up.  I then put everything else back together and hauled it upstairs from the basement to the garage.

In the garage, I plugged in the electric starter...here goes nothing.  She fired up!!!  and stayed fired up!!!   It was however surging rather badly but at least it was running. Not enough fuel I thought.   I went back to the computer and searched for surging CCR 2000's.  Some said to rebuild the carb (which I had done already).  Others mentioned that there is one adjusting screw on the carb.  I took a look at that on the CCR 2000 carb.  Normally I (as a rule) set low and high idle screws 1 to 1 1/2 turn out.  This adjusting screw I had originally set 1 and 1/2 turns out.  I turned the screw a little further out so that it was about 2 or 2 and 1/2 turns out from a seated position.  No surging at all.  Runs like a dream...hums like a bee! 

Thank you guys for all you help, suggestions, and input.  I appreciate it very much.

   You cured it, nice going. 

   If I read the post right the problem could have been the coil or module as both were replaced.    If the coil then that meant the original went bad, the replacement went bad and the fixed coil bad, all in the same way.  The same for the module.  The first was defective and the replacement defective both in the same way.  Given the way things happened it almost seems the first replacement module was defective in the same way as the original.   Overall a nasty problem with some bad Karma mixed in. 

Another success story here. After trying a used module (no known condition) I sprang for an ebay mega fire II ($18 shipped). Just spun it by hand a the spark was brighter then a super nova. Guess I'll be winterizing it and wait till next year. Looks like Long Island is getting an early spring. Thanks for the helpful info.

Nice.

That only took what?  Three months?  

Electrical problems can be a nightmare.  Particularly of parts being interchanged are of "unknown" status. 

Hello all,
New to forum. Just joined.
I want to thank you all for this forum and especially this particular thread. I bought one of these Toro CCR 2000 snow blowers from a guy on craigslist. It is a 1995 mdl 38180 w/ the Suzuki engine. It looks as if it has hardly been used. Not a speck of rust and the engine is extremely clean. It had a no fire issue. I got it for a really good price.
I googled "Toro CCR 2000 no fire" and found this forum.
I read about halfway through this thread and ordered a Mega Fire ll. Before I ordered it I just gave everything a kind of going over. I took the engine out and looked at the coil and set the air gap at 0.010. Kind of looked over the wires but I just knew there was nothing wrong there. Put the engine in a vise and fabbed a pull rope to see if it was doing anything. I felt a weak shock was all.
Long story short I took the ignition module off and put the whole thing back together and waited for the new module. It came today and I had the snow blower running in just a few minutes. It started on the very first pull.
Thanks again!
Joe

Good for you and welcome to the forum.

You got a good SS machine there.  Take care of that Suzuki engine and you'll have it a very long time.  Check your belt for tension and check your engine rpms (should be around 4000 or so).  If all is good, it should throw snow impressively if the paddles are in good shape.

My Toro CCR 2000 worked great the first snow storm of the year, then a couple of weeks ago it wouldn't start. Frustrating is an understatement. It's snowing like crazy with over 8" down already, cold and blowing with no end in sight. I start taking the blower apart and can't get spark. I try a new plug and no cigar. I finally take the shrouding completely off, remove the gas tank pull starter assy and fan shroud. The flywheel magnets are strong and the air gap to the coil looks ok. I'm betting it's the module so I ordered one off Ebay for $17 shipped to my house. I quickly wired it up with neg ground and turned the crank cup by hand. I got a good spark so I assembled the whole thing back together. Filled it with gas and it started with the first pull. I'd like to thank those with previous posts for steering me in the right direction. As I recall motors using ignitions like these in the past used condensers and I believe the module serves this purpose. I'd bet a condenser may work just as well.

Thank you all for your input to this subject.  I realize this is an old discussion, but the following is offered with the hope that it will help at least one other person.

My machine:  CCR2000, Model # 38180, S/N 39_ _ _ _ _, 1993 vintage.  Prices for parts varied by supplier, but here is a typical quote.  Magneto Coil $213, Magneto Module $124.

I was experiencing the same issue (no spark) and found several good pointers in the responses herein.  My experience:

I had checked the magneto coil's secondary and primary winding resistances with a digital auto ranging meter.  Primary (low voltage) measured a 1.5 ohms.  Secondary (high voltage) winding measured many mega ohms.  Following the advice in one of the submissions above, I checked the connection in the spark plug boot and found it was corroded.  Cut the end off, made a new connection and measured 10k ohms.  With a smile I hoped it would fire up.  Not so lucky, still no spark!

With good resistance readings, the coil appeared to be healthy, which left he "magneto module," as it is referenced by Toro.  I didn't know a way to diagnose the module, so I ordered a universal module from Oregon (#33-053) for $14.71.  Installed the module and runs like a champ.  Storm to arrive tomorrow so just in time.

Thank you all.