Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Happy holidays every one! ... bought the toro 1028 OXE back in October, right after the very first early snow storm. Was not able to try it in snow... I added the startron stabilizer And filled up the tank with 93 octane. I tested the new baby, showed off without spinning augers... But now it's a long time unused. My question is: is it okay for the fuel to sit in the carb for such a long time? Thanks!

The intervals between use are the reason I use a fuel stabilizer in my gas cans year round.

The information I have read seems to point towards gasoline starting to deteriorate in as little as 30 days. It's not at all uncommon for me to take 30 days or more to use up a can of gas.

Side note: Any particular reason for the 93 octane?

I've had gas sit longer than that. It's not ideal, but I wouldn't expect a problem.

As CharlesW said, using stabilizer all the time isn't a bad idea. I tend not to use it when I'm going through gas more quickly (mid-summer, or mid-winter). But I will add it near the end of each season, when I'm going through the gas more slowly. And it wouldn''t hurt to use it all the time, to be safe.

A tip, the Marine Sta-bil is much cheaper to use than the regular kind. The regular version treats 1/4 the gallons of the Marine bottle of the same size. And the Marine is only a dollar or two more. I've switched to Marine. Plus, the used bottles with the measuring feature can be used to measure out 2-stroke oil, etc.

I have had a can of gas for 2 years with stable in it. I have used it in my mower with no problems for the last 2 years. 

If your not using stabilizer I wouldn't let fuel sit longer than a month... I tell my customers to put the old stuff in there cars and get fresh at least once a month... If u use stabilizer u should be safe for the season.

Why so much  obsession over fuel?

Thirty days and it's going bad?  I'd believe that if it's left out in the open in  a water pail. 

I have gas in containers out at my camp that sits for six month and often eight months without ever having a problem with it.  Keep it in an air tight container and it will be fine for months on end without fuel stabilizer.  Particularly in cold weather.   Even if it's left in the fuel tank of a machine it's good for months.  

I've got untreated gasoline sitting in the fuel tank of the B&S engine on my Simplicity snow blower that been in there since the beginning of November.  That's almost two months already.   Two pumps on the primer, one pull of the cord, engine fired right up and runs as per usual, great.  

Waaaaay too much anxiety about fuel and necessity for bogus stabilizers.  If you want to eliminate your fuel  problems, it starts by ensuring you're getting clean gasoline at the pump.  Every time I've encountered a fuel issue it's from freshly purchased contaminated gas.  Never had a problem, ever,  from fuel that's been sitting in a fuel tank or container for a few months. 

I use 93 for my Toyota sequoia, whice improves power majorly in low rpm, so I can cruise on 60 mph with only 1500 rpm... Instead of 1900 rpm.. So when I filled up my truck, I filled the B&S 2.5G gas container

JoelKlein wrote:
Help me out here.....

How does the octane rating of the fuel have such an effect on the gear ratio?   Constant engine rpm in a particular gear should, in most cases, deliver the constant speed.  If you're in fourth gear at 1500 rpm and increase the engine speed to 1900 rpm in the same gear, you will increase the speed of the vehicle unless you're spinning the drive wheels.  Lowering the engine speed in the same gear will result in slower speed. 

There's something in what you've said that I'm either missing or not understanding. 

I worked in the petroleum industry. The energy in a gallon of gasoline is independent of octane value. A gallon of 87 octane has the same energy content as a gallon of 93 octane. Higher octane gasoline has a higher ignition temperature which is beneficial to high compression ratio engines. OPE engines are low compression ratio engines along with the majority of automobile engines. If a low compression ratio engine needs high octane gasoline it typically means it is not functioning as originally designed.

Fleetfoot -

OT, but where do you fill up. At the cheapest pump in town or just a decent station that has *good traffic* -- which in theory should = gas that moves in qty and is more fresh. Which might mean better pumps, better maint, filters, etc.

Gas is gas  afaik. Meaning it all comes out of the local pipeline/refinery. How much additive pack differs from brand X versus X when oftentime, it will be some local joe schmoe truck rig filling up the local *top tier* stations.
I'd be inclined to hear some industry folks on what method do you decide to pump your gas...

JoelKlein wrote:

The only way that you could come up with a 400 rpm difference  would be that you are using a a higher gear with the 93 octane.

Yeah, maybe the added engine torque allows running in 5th, at 1500, vs 4th, at 1900, to get acceptable performance (for hills, passing, etc)? That's the only way it makes sense to me.

As a minor aside, Stihl recommends 89+ octane fuel in their engines. Maybe it's different for small, high-revving 2-strokes, vs larger 4-strokes. But at least some OPE recommends gas higher than 87 octane.

Sorry, I was away for a couple hours. here is the story About the high octane: first of all, my dealer recommended NOT LOWER then 89 for the Toro 1028. Maybe he is wrong. I will call up Briggs and ask. I am brand new to OPE. About the Toyota: I reaserched for sooooooooo looooooong about the high octane, the compression, and about the detergent issue. I asked saverel Toyota certified mechanics at the dealers services. The all told me that the ECU will detect the octane level, and will adjust the engine to it. The sequoia/ tondra can be fitted with the TRD high performance kit, which includes bigger fuel injectors, Air Intakes, etc... And then you should use higher octane, becouse the engine is going to compress up to 9:1 instead of the standard 8:1. Now, even without the TRD kit installed, I can In fact stay in a higher gear at the same speed, When i use higher octane. Versus with 87 octane my transmission keeps its self bussy shifting gears up and down. But this is all fine as long as I'm drivIng with the octane in mind... Once I go HARD on the paddal, I'm anyway forcing the transs in to the lower gear... So money in trash... It might be worth trying 89 instead of 92/93. But I'm afraid the gas turnover is much less and not fresh! If any one here feels. That I am wrong, I'm willing to learn. I'm open.

From page 15 of the 1028 owners manual, "Fill the fuel tank with fresh unleaded regular gasoline from a major name-brand service station (Figure 26)." Typically, regular unleaded gasoline has an octane rating of 87 depending on elevation. The detergent level is independent of octane level.

About the detergent level: I'm puzzeled, alot of people says its the same and that is the Law and allot of people say its 87 does have less of it. What I need, is some hard facts!

JoelKlein wrote:
The engine's knock (ping) sensor will monitor how the engine is running, yes. The ECU may try to advance the ignition timing, to produce more power. Higher octane gas will allow the timing to be advanced more, without knocking/pinging. If you run lower octane gas, the ECU will retard the timing to avoid knocking. You might see less power and reduced mileage. I had a car that recommended premium. When premium got to a level that I thought was unreasonable (~$1.80, as I recall. Clearly this was a number of years ago ), I switched back to regular. The engine automatically adjusted, and I could feel that it had a bit less pep, and my mileage dropped a little. But it was still cheaper.

But the engine cannot, so far as I know, change the compression ratio on the fly. The only ways to do that that I can think of would be to change the head, pistons, or maybe the crankshaft. But I don't think the compression ratio can change while you're using it.

There are only a few ways to increase compression ratios in an internal combustion engine.  One decrease the size of the combustion chamber by
1. either using a flat top or dome piston (in place of a dished piston), and or using a set of heads with a smaller combustion chamber.
2 using forced induction such as a turbo or supercharger.

Injectors, air cleaners and headers will do nothing to increase compression ratios.

Higher octane fuels can help hp when the if the  ecu can advance the timing by helping the engine not have pre-ignition or ping thus increasing hp a bit.

Most engines will not see any difference in performance or gas milage using high octane fuel.  In fact a low compression engine (8:1)will probably run worse on high octane gas.

So all I need is a forlmula to calculate the added engine HP and how often the engine Actuly take advantage of it... Otherwise I'm like writing a 5 line paragraph on a big 11x17 sheet! But what about the detergent factor? Any ideas ?

I use the 91 octane in all my small engines because the 87 and 89 here has 10% ethenal in it and the dealer told me that stuff goes bad faster than the regular gas without it. The 91 does not have ethenal in it as its for off road, collector cars, and stuff like that.

How does forced induction change an engine's compression ratio?  It doesn't impact the bore or stroke of the engine.

Forced induction basically compresses the air before it enters the cylinder.  Basically, you get more volume of air in the same space.

So back to snow blowers. What's the issue with 87 octane? What does it mean " major brand" gas ?

Just to make sure we differentiate.....  A car may or may not have computer adjusted timing, to maximize performance to the octane rating.  Now I seriously doubt my SB has a computer chip in it ... correct me if I'm wrong... so using the recommended octane is highly recommended.......

I agree 100%. But the Manuel states it needs gas from a GOOD gas station. What in world does it mean?

I use 87 in my 4 stroke ope and 91 in my 2 strokes because the Echo dealer told me to do it 10 years ago when I bought my blower and string trimmer. This was about the time the fuel additive package went from MTBE to alcohol. I haven't had a problem but I may not have experienced any with regular so who knows. The difference in $ for the amount of 2 stroke i use is negligible. I also own an FJ cruiser (2007) which suggested premium grade in the owners manual. I can report that when i tried 87 the fuel mileage dropped by about 2mpg. When I went back to 91 the mileage went back up. Marc

JoelKlein wrote:

I would guess they mean Shell, Mobil, Sunoco, etc... as corporate policy would most likely set standards to ensure a high quality product is maintained and delivered.

I use 87 octane in everything I own.  Two and four stroke.  Autos, OPE, motorcycles, ATVs, snowmobiles, you name it.  No problems with performance of any kind. 

By using 93 in a toro 1028, can I do any damage ? In other words; should I drain it and fill up with 87?

JoelKlein wrote:
No.

carlb wrote:

According to you. High octane will make the engine worse. Why? And how? Pls explain. Thanks

My local dealer said to run 87 octane and I'd be fine as long as I run some stabilizer which has to do more with the ethanol and water in the gas than the octane. So far everything works just fine.

borat wrote:

In my shop it would be safe to say that at least 50% of all "No Starts" that come into the shop every year are from STALE FUEL... Thats why u should 100% run stabilizer in your fuel.... and at the cost of stabilizer $1.50 / 10L of gas, makes for pretty cheap insurance...

As far as "Getting BAD Gas" lve been in business for Ten years this year and service approx 300 machines every year and i RARELY come across "BAD GAS" maybe twice in my Ten years have i even seen it...so its extremely unlikely u will get bad gas... what is more likely is stale fuel...

For example before i started using stabilizer about 6 years ago i would tune up customers snowblowers in the spring or even mid to late october and they wouldn't start them till the first snow in january and i would get a call saying it wont start...so i'd drive out to there place to find out that the fuel has gone stale.. drian the old fuel out put new in and it starts right up...so after about 15 calls in one season i started using stabilizer and lve never had a problem since.

l use 87 octane fuel,  l have tried 94 octane but didn't see any benifit from using the higher octane, so why pay 94 when 87 does the same job without any drawbacks..

Well, I own probably 40 pieces of equipment from OPE, to outboard motors, to ATVs, to snowmobiles, to motorcycles, to cars and trucks.  Never an issue with stale fuel. 

However, I do proper maintenance and drain fuel from equipment that will be stored for long durations.  Nonetheless, I still keep fuel in plastic five gallon containers at my camp for six to eight months and it works just as fine as fresh fuel.  So, the stories about fuel going bad in one month sound a bit contrary to my experience. 

I would wager that the stale fuel your customers experience is much more than 30 days old and likely much older.   I would also wager that it was kept in a fuel tank that was left less than 1/4 full.  Under those conditions, it has room to evaporate and deteriorate.  If their tanks were kept either right empty or completely full before storage, and they ran their carbs dry, they probably would not have had a problem.

And I stopped using stabilizers ten or fifteen years ago.  Haven't regretted it yet.

And for all the 40 engines you use regular 87 octane?

For example just last week i had a 2008 ariens come in NO START the lady says she started it a couple of months ago to move it in the garage... went to start last week and it wont start.. this is a tecumseh 6hp ohv...anyways all i did was drian the old fuel out and put new in and it started first pull.. and this could of been pervented if she used stabilizer..of course she had no idea what stabilizer even is.. and thats a good example of a snowblower that started only a couple months of ago.. of course lm not saying that will happen to every snowblower but is it worth the risk for a couple of dollaurs for stabilizer??

And for the customer sake its just makes things easier then they dont half to remember "should i leave fuel in it" "half or full" "how long is fuel good for" all these questions are gone if they just use stabilizer, then they have no worries at least in regards to storage and fuel..

most new briggs mowers are coming with stabilizer (replacable cartiridge) built in the fuel caps...because they've had so many problems with stale fuel causing no starts... it just makes sense.. thats my opinion.

JoelKlein wrote:

 

The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more.

In a low compression engine(8:1), it is sufficient to burn low (87) octane fuel because the heat of compression is not high enough to ignite it spontaneously. However, as compression is raised, higher octane ratings are necessary to prevent this auto-ignition. Since higher octane gasoline burns at about the same temperature as low octane, it generates the same amount of power. The reason a high compression, high octane engine develops more power is because the higher compression raises the BMEP--Base Mean Effective Pressure: More pressure = more horsepower. Timing is usually advanced a bit also for a better power curve and the engines are usually adjusted to injest more air/fuel mixture. They also usually produce this power at a higher RPM than a low compression engine. THUS: There is NO advantage to using high octane fuel in an engine that requires low octane, and at best, it is a waste of money. Indeed, some high octane fuels can contain compounds that could be harmful to low compression engines.

However, using low octane rated fuel in a high compression engine is harmful. Because the gasoline auto-ignites at a different point than the sparkplug and usually earlier, there are two flame fronts burning. When the flame fronts collide, excess temperature and pressure are generated. We may hear it as a knocking noise also known as "detonation." This melts the aluminum of the piston while at the same time hammering it. Total destruction is the result.

Conclusion: Use fuel with the octane rating recommended by the manufacturer.

Lean running conditions are a separate scenario not related to octane rating. Lean fuel mixtures also auto-ignite more easily and burn hotter than proper mixtures of gasoline and air regardless of octane rating. The result, however is the same: Total destruction of the piston.

Okay, I fully understand why we cant use 87 octane in a high performance engine without damaging it. . But you still didn't explain why we can't use 93 octane In a low Compression engine! You wrote that it may Contain some elements, what are those elemants? To worst it can happen is $$$$ in trash! But damage???? Or make it perform worse?!

Simple 93 octane burns hotter, in a car this isn't much of an issue but in a small engine it could be. Also elevation affects engines and you need less octane or something bad happens.

The safest thing you can do is run the right gas. In my Toro 1028 I run 87 octane from the local station. This works. If you already have 93 octane I guess run it until it you run out then

buy 87 octane. Save your money. I can't imagine it doing any damage in the short term.

Yes.  I use the least expensive pump gas I can find in all of my engines.  Never had a problem. 

Don't forget what the fuel prices are like in this country.  Right now, at some places regular 87 octane gas  is $1.30 a liter.  That works out to about $4.90 a U.S. gallon.

Using higher octane than recommended by the manufacturer will not damage your engine. There are no advantages to using higher octane than recommended by the manufacturer. The only difference between higher octane and lower octane is the ignition temperature. Use whatever octane fuel you wish to use as long as it meets the minimum octane requirements of the engine manufacturer. The one change you will see when using higher than recommended octane fuel is a lighter wallet. Regarding where to buy fuel, there are very few low volume gas stations anymore. The sale of gasoline is a low margin business. That is why it is sold mostly at stores with multiple sources of revenue, i.e. convenience store, restaurant, car wash, souvenir shop. It is very rare to get old gasoline out of the pump. The majority of gasoline is at most a few days old. All the gasoline within a fixed area comes from the same refinery. The refinery formulates the various octane grades of gasoline then adds the additive package of the particular company when filling the tanker truck. You will see tanker trucks from every gasoline company pulling in and out of your local refinery. So picking one gasoline company over another means you are picking one additive package over another but the basic gasoline is all the same within a given geographic area.

JoelKlein wrote:
Due to its design high octane fuel is designed to to ignite at higher compression levels as to not detonate or auto-ignite in a high compression engine.  It also has a slower burn rate and a slower moving flame front.   This will cause a loss of power in a lower compression engine as the fuel will start to burn later and will be burning slower, still burning after the piston reaches BDC, effectively reducing the amount of power extracted out of the fuel. You could advance the ignition timing to help solve this problem but you still wont get any more power out of the engine. The net result will be wasted unburnt fuel, loss of power, and even carbon buildup on the exhaust valve that after a while will lower compression even more due to the valve not being able to seal the combustion chamber.

I suggest you run what ever octane you like in your engine, however, running 93 octane in an engine designed for 87 is not only a waste of money is will surely cause a stock low compression engine to loose power and even carbon up.  Did you ever hear the saying  use the right tool for the  job.  87 octane is the right tool for a low compression engines period.

Higher compression engines require higher octane to prevent Pre-ignition/detonation.

I have been running 87 octane fuel in my small engines for over 30 years with no problems.

If you want real high octane (short of buying racing fuel) gas get some 100LL (available at small local airports) it even still has tetraethyllead in it.

I run Avgas  (100 LL) in my 11.8 compression 434 cubic inch 69 camaro which makes over 625hp at the rear wheels.  It has a very sweet smell  when burned and is blue in color

This is my technique for the past two years.  I don't use any fuel stabilizers on 87 octane fuel.  I try to fill up with enough gas per snowblower session, and run the carb dry if possible by shutting off the fuel valve.  If any of the gas in the external tanks is older than 30 days, I put the in the wife's car, then get fresh fuel.

So far so good.  I don't feel like spending money on fuel additives or higher octane fuel if I don't have to.  If it works for me, I will keep doing this until I see any problems.

Also, like Borat has mentioned before, if you must store fuel in the tanks for extended amount of time, fill it up to the top as much as possible reduce air volume in the tank, keep the cap tight.  This is the recommended method for metal gas tanks or cans, to prevent rusting.

Anyways, if you feel like spending more for additives or octanes gives you the warm and fuzzy feeling, that's fine with me.  This sometimes can create a "stimulus package" to the economy, a monetary policy, which has indirect benefits.  Sometimes people spend money on intangible, immeasureable, or neglible "benefits".  Everybody's perception is different so if you "perceive" the benefits, by all means do it.  I used to spend $1000 on speaker cables, I can't say I appreciate or notice the difference these days, but back then, it was worth it to me.  :)  Not that the $1000 speaker cables sounded even at least 2 times better than a $100 speaker cables, that was never the case.  Mankind can only do so much to create the perfect copper crystalline structure.  :)  And you'll be amazed how a glass of red wine improves the sound quality of any system.

Still waiting for snow here too.  There hasn't been significant snowfall to even break out a shovel.   The weather has been like early April, lots of rain. 

carlb wrote:

hey carlb...  very nicely explianed!!! .. excellent info and easy to understand..

To add to carlb post on octane...when fuel becomes stale it looses its ability to ignite easily.... so on older snowblowers where the compression is lower than normal they seem to be more prone to no starts from stale fuel...i have noticed without a doubt that the older snowblowers this seems to happen more frequently too, but certainly not limited too...

l recommend to my customers even when using stabilizer in there fuel is they use there fuel no more than 2-3 months, without stabilizer 1 month....then get fresh gas to avoid starting issues... stale fuel can cause hard starting,,prolonged cranking,, and premature fouling of the spark plug....and thats when the engine starts!!

The number one question i get when recommending to a customer to use stabilizer in there fuel is "where do i get rid of the old fuel"...easy just pour it right into your car gas tank...your car wont mind the stale fuel as it has a much higher compression ratio..and it gets diluted in with the existing fuel in your cars tank...of course this ONLY pertains to straight gas and NOT mixed gas.

niper99 wrote:
I was told never to dump old mixed(2 cycle)gas in my truck as it might cause damage to the evaporative emission devices and cause the "check engine" indicator to light up. You might then fail State inspection which will compel you to waste money on this political device. :')

Hay guys, you convinced me... No More 93 in the snow blower. I'm even thinking of draining the 93 from the 1028. So it won't burn hotter, or create slow flames, and build up carbon, and etc... The SB is brand new and I want to keep it that way. But I do know that regular 87 have waste in it that can accumulate. What can I do to keep the fuel lines and the piston chamber CLEAN? Including my Toyota sequoia ?

JoelKlein wrote:
Joel,

The only difference between 87 and 93 octane is the additive package that is added after the gas is refined.  If anything the 87 octane has less in it the the 93 octane fuel.

I suggest you run what the manufacture calls for in your particular engine and not let it worry you.   As far as the 93 octane you now have in your blower, just use it, it will be fine, but for long term use, use  the fuel the manufacturer calls for.


Carl

Thank you! I understand. If I may ask one more question; in terms of automobils, Whats the reason a OLD engine won't produce as much power as a new one? what can be done to prevent that loss of power ? In other words: what can I do to make my car drive in 5 years like it drives new? In yeas from now, will my snow blower loose power too?

all you can do is take care of you auto or ope.  Change the oil, oil filter and air filters when required.

Good fuel will help keep injectors clean and maintain a good spray pattern.

All engines will loose power as they get older it's just a matter of how much power they loose and most of that is directly attributed to how the engine was maintained.

Change you oil, oil filter, air filter etc as recomended by the MFG (your owners manual will give you the intervals)
Use good quality gasoline of the correct octane.
Use good quality Oil and filters.
Don't drive a cold engine hard, drive it easy until it warms up.
Don't abuse your equipment.

I have seen dozens of cars with over 200k the still run very well with little loss in performance even with those kinds of miles

I was reading somewhere about using the Startron in fuel will increase its shelf life to 2 years! Is that possible?

just my 2 cents, it says right on the sta-bil bottle that it's only good for 2 years after breaking the seal, so you need to check on how long you've had it.

stresst wrote:

Read some more.

What Startron actually says on their web-site:

"Gas and diesel fuels break down rapidly which results in lost power and poor performance. Star Tron stabilizes the fuel chemistry for up to two years in gas and in diesel."

Up to two years is not the same as saying it will definitely increase shelf life to two years.

Personal opinion. (worth what it cost you) I use one year as my fuel life limit, stabilizer or not. 

Those that say stabilizer is a waste of money have had much better luck than me. I have cleaned plugged carb jets on lawn mowers, snowblowers, snowmobiles and motorcycles when they were left for the off season without stabilizer added.

CharlesW:

You'll have less trouble with carbs if you store them dry.  Why spend money on an additive of questionable performance when a know method will prevent problems?  Drain the tank, run the carb dry and/or drain the float bowl and you shouldn't have a need for additives.

borat wrote:

You could very well be correct.

Or

I could pour a little stabilizer in my fuel can and fuel tanks and I shouldn't need to: "Drain the tank, run the carb dry and/or drain the float bowl".

FWIW, I don't find stabiliozers to be all that expensive. Less than $10 will buy enough Stabil to treat 25 gallons of fuel and about $7 will buy enough Seafoam to treat 16 gallons.

   Sta-bil at least won't prevent gumming which is mainly from evaporation.  Try putting some in a cup and let it sit around for weeks or months and see what happens.  Sta-bil evaporates along with the gas and leaves a pink film.

   What does Sta-bil do for water?  Put some gas treated with Sta-bil in a white cup or class along with some water and see what happen over the weeks and months. 
Shake the container every so often to get the gas to cloud up with water giving Sta-bil more chance to act.  It dosen't do anything to the water.  The water always forms a blob at the bottom every time and over months. 

   As far as changing the molecular structure of gas I've never seen a claim about that on any additive site and for sure not Sta-bil's site.  Lots of claims but nothing about how it works.  If that had some secret sauce they would tout it. 

Hey Trouts,

I can't believe how many participants actually believe in fuel additives. 

It would appear that you and I have conducted enough experiments to know, that in general, they're virtually useless.   I was a sucker for that stuff for years but have since given it up. 

Some people learn and some don't.

I'm not disputing what you guys have found. You have way more experience with it than I do. I can say that I typically put stabilizer in my gas between seasons (but not always, I'm sure), and I have not had trouble the next time I go to start them.

What do you suggest for engines without drains in the carb bowls? Just run them dry? I know people say that a smaller amount of gas will still be left in the bowl, if you do that. I could see, for instance, running them dry, after putting stabilizer in the gas, to help the amount that's left.

Even if stabilizer doesn't do much, I typically don't use it mid-season, when I'm going through gas quickly. So maybe it costs me a few dollars a year. I have no problem paying that for a bit of peace of mind, even if that's perhaps all it gets me I will say that using Chemtool B12 to try and clean some carb parts was somewhat interesting. I was using it straight, and it certainly wasn't just dissolving the junk on the parts I was soaking. So it did make me curious what it's able to do when mixed into gas at a much lower ratio. But I'd already tried to clean some of the junk off the parts. It's also possible that I'd already removed what it would have helped loosen.

I've never seen a carb (excluding diaphram carbs) that didn't have an accessible float bowl.  Even cheap plastic Lawn Boy carbs have a removable float bowl.  If you do come across one, you could just blow a bit of compressed air into the fuel line to the carb.  That should remove pretty much everything in the float bowl.  Go easy on the pressure.  Maybe 10 psi.  Don't want to put too much stress on the components inside the float bowl. 

The point I'm trying to make is that fuel additives have never shown a benefit for me other than the "illusion that they may be working" caused by some desire to think that they are.  

In some instances, an additive might help remove carbon build up from a two cycle engine  piston and/or head.  However, I've never seen enough carbon in a two cycle engine that needed to be cleaned out.  Today's two cycle engines run pretty clean and don't build up much carbon.

Last summer I scored three old Lawn Boy mowers that weren't running.  I took them apart and found the internals to be in great shape and the exhaust ports very clean on the two new ones (early 70s and just a bit of build up on the oldest one a 1965.  So that engine is over 45 years old and you can bet that it burned old fashioned engine oil rather than today's modern two cycle oils.  You can also rest assured that it likely never saw any additives either and it had only a bit of carbon on the exhaust port perimeter.  Hardly enough to effect performance nor to be concerned about. 

We put way too faith and emphasis on products that provide very little tangible reward.  We delude ourselves into believing that they're doing a fine job when in fact, there is no job for them to do.  I've yet to see any additive clean a dirty carb.  Yet we have people making such claims and more all the time.  I'll say this, if they were having carb problems and used an elixir to fix it, chances are the carb would have cleared itself just by passage of gasoline. 

Snake oil will never replace good mechanical practices and regular maintenance despite what the "believers" say.   The sooner one embraces that philosophy, the sooner they will relinquish their dependence on their magic elixir of choice.   

Here’s their claim for their gas treatment product:

 

Formulated with High Energy Solvent Technology (H.E.S.T.) to clean all internal system circuits by chemically dissolving varnish, carbon and gum deposits. Thoroughly cleans fuel jets, carburetor circuits, fuel pump and combustion chamber for faster starts, smoother idling and maximum fuel economy.

 

“High Energy”, sound potent.  You used it straight and found out just how “High Energy” it was. 

 

I use their (Berymans)1 gallon dip.  It’s not that great.  I double dip with the second run going through NAPA’s 1 gallon dip.  Both are not so good but I think they do dissolve some forms of gum and dirt and weaken others to the point they can be scrapped, prodded or blown clean.  Given what the claims are for chemical carb dips I think they were more potent in the past compared to now, sort of EPA tamed. 

 

>>>I can say that I typically put stabilizer in my gas between seasons (but not always, I'm sure), and I have not had trouble the next time I go to start them.

    There may or may not be a cause and effect there. 

 

    It all depends on storage conditions, hot, dry, cool.  It also depends on the venting of the carb and air flow around the carb when stored.   I know one guy who has never done anything with his machine for storage.  He stores his machine with gas and no line shutoff in a closed shed under a big tree so always shaded.  His machine after 12 seasons still starts on the first pull with “stale” last seasons gas.

 

>>>What do you suggest for engines without drains in the carb bowls? Just run them dry?

    There is almost always a bowl nut which can be loosened enough to get a good flow out.  Running them dry requires emptying the tank for most people and a pain.  I use a boat hand bailing pump but also use a 3 foot tube for siphoning which is much faster and gets more out than the bailer.

 

>>>I know people say that a smaller amount of gas will still be left in the bowl,

   The amount of  gum and residue left from a small amount of gas in the bowl will make a very thin film and not disturb anything over 20 seasons.  The killer is leaving gas in the tank with no line shutoff and in a hot place.  That will take only a month or two to gum up a carb.  Everytime the bowl drains more gas can come in. 

   

   Some storage conditions, probably most, add layers per year and after 2-5 years cause a no start.   Say someone stores at the end of the season with old versus fresh gas.  That’s a 3-4 month jump on having a problem.  The gas may be very yellow by then and carrying lots of water going into storage.

 

Borat,

   Just for the heck of it this year I left gas in all the machines here last winter.  I did start them occasionally but was away most of the summer.  No problem starting them this fall.

    For the summer camp I do the same as you and have no problem.  Gas is up there waiting for me for next summer.  I do cheat on the mower though and ran it dry as a mower is easy to run low at the end of the season. 

 

   For various reasons I get a lot of left over gas here.  I used to run it in my car.  These days I tank it by letting it sit in containers for a few days.  The dirt and water sink to a blob at the bottom and I draw off the top which is usually clear and use it in my own machines.  If the gas is a very deep yellow to amber I’ll toss it.

I'm still confused about the extra additives the fuel have? And why are they adding more stuff into high octane fuel? And were can I research "what" it is in the benefits of it?

Check this link out....this is for all the nah sayers out there....and this is striaght from brigggs & stratton....   http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Fresh%20Start%20Fuel%20Stabilizer%20-%20Features%20and%20Benefits/

Additives are put into the gasoline after it is formulated. The formulation determines the octane level of the gasoline. The additives are required by engine manufacturers to remove the small amounts of combustion byproducts that can be deposited in the combustion chambers and the valves. The additive package is independent of octane level. In other words, the additive package is identical for 87 octane gasoline and 93 octane gasoline. The 93 octane gasoline does not have more "stuff" than 87 octane gasoline.

niper99,

   The link is to Briggs marketing info.  There are no test results, no data sheets, nothing about how the product works.  It’s all claims that you can find on hundreds of gas additive products.  There is nothing there to back their claims only claims.

 

   You have their product on-hand and it’s easy enough to get two clean cups.  Put some mixed additive in the cup with 20-30 drops of water and see what happens.  Put gas and water in another cup with no additive and see if there is any difference after a few days to a week. 

 

Borat,

   Remember those SeaFoam tests?  The other day I was cleaning up a bench and came across test the containers with SeaFoam and another that had Sta-bil.  Two of the SeaFram containers still had liquid SeaFoam.  The cellar is dry and a surprise it never dried out.  The Sta-bil was evaporated and stuck to the cup.  It would do the same in a gas tank or carb. 

    The SeaFoam did not evaporate.  If someone wanted a product that did not work and did not work for a long time SeaFoam would be a superior product.

   For whatever SeaFoam dosen’t do it may have lubricating properties and help small particles pass through holes and passageways.  It might be as valuable as Mystery oil or adding a few drops of oil to a tank of gas.

I still say "nah...". No one is talking about the actual engreediance mixture that creates it as a stabilizer! All I read is one big promis that it can handle all... Fact is, that every one knows from what FUEL is made of... And we also understand the physics of it, so we trust that expansive liquid and we use them. Vs. stabilizing is unknown and in the complete darkness, and go search around and find out that every brand uses more and more Fancy marketing advertisements. Let me ask you a question, when your hot and thirsty you want orange juice, right? Why?, because you KNOW the properties of oranges and you understand WHY it will help you!! Got my point?

Believing in additives is a lot like religion.   Don't ask the hard questions, don't challenge the unbelievable.  Just lay down your money and trust that ye shall be delivered!

I personally don't  care if people want to use "mechanic in can, magic elixirs and miracle cures".  That's their choice.  However, I do have a problem with people touting the effectiveness of these wonders without one iota of substantiation.   It's misleading to say the least. 

Don't you just love it when an inexperienced person asks for information on how to clean a carb and half a dozen guys recommend their magic elixir of choice?   No guidance on how to disassemble a carb, clean the jets and galleries etc.  Just spray some of this miracle fluid in the carb and that will fix things......  If that doesn't work, show the carb the elixir's container so that it understands what it's up against.  If that doesn't straighten things out, reach for the stuff the world has been keeping from the Russians.  You know, the stuff that soooo good that if the Ruskies get it, it will upset the balance of global power..... Yeah, that stuff.......

Yea... at least borat is on my side…

But honestly, I did believe my dealer and I got the “magic” additive.

My goal is; To learn the basic insides of OPW so I can batter operate it and maintain it.

Regarding the octane debate, I got here a 95% knowledge.

But as far as stabilizer, I’m even MORE CONFUSED! Why? Keep on reading:

This is from B&S site; http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Fresh%20Start%20Fuel%20Stabilizer%20-%20Features%20and%20Benefits/

Eliminates the need for end-of-season fuel draining. Not only is the draining of fuel an environmental concern but also keeping your fuel system wet with fuel prevents rubber seals and gaskets from drying out. Whether storing your fuel in the tank or in a container, it absolutely needs Fresh Start!  

- - - - - - - - -

Got that?

They are clearly saying that running the carburetor “dry” “will” cause damage to the rubber seals and gaskets!!

Questions here:

1)      Will a dry carb VOID manufacture Warrantee?!

2)      Since they use the word “prevents” and not “may prevent” is a indication of a “For sure damage”; if so, why aren’t they list it properly under the warning paragraph in the owners manual?   

3)      Why in the world is draining of fuel an environmental concern? Is it more of a concern as an oil change??

4)      When a product can’t be prescribed normal and to the point, (like additives) advertisement of it is in need of bringing up negative concerns to use the human guilt feelings as a tool to up the sales…

I’m waiting for answers…

lm not saying its a "FIX" to anything....what lm saying is its HELPS pervent stale fuel....which in turn causes no starts for customers and big bills to repair..... and the average customer doesnt know how to drian there out there machine when it becomes stale...nor are there intrested in ripping there carb apart to clean it... when they have no clue in how to do so...  and your claim as to it not working has no backing whats so ever other than your personal opinion......briggs has just a little bit more expierence than all of us... and there recomending it to be used because they dont want there customer buying a brand new machine and the first season its sits a peroid of time for it not start..because that just buts a bad taste in peoples mouth... and there most likey to return the unit or not buy a briggs product in the future.... and briggs is putting it in all there new mowers fuel caps... there not doing that to sell stabilizers... its to pervent stale fuel and unhappy customers.

and my opinion on stabilizers is based on servicing 300 units/year for the last 10 years...not just on 5 or 6 machines i have of my own... in my opinion for the cost of stabilizer for the hole year which for most people would cost about $10.... it just doesnt make sense not to use it.... because lm yet to see anybody have something negative about stabilizer yet...and your NOT going to see the stabilizer working becuase theres nothing see it keeps fuel fresh and helps maintian the octance rating so your not gonna see anything happening... other than your snowblower starts everytime...

I've read more than a few accounts of people adding stabilizer to their fuel and still having trouble getting their machine to start/run right.  I, on the other hand don't use stabilizer in any of my fuel and all of my stuff starts and runs fine.  So, from my perspective and likely that of many others, fuel additives is just another way to get people to spend their hard earned money needlessly.   

Just because B&S endorse a product, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work.  B&S recommend Mobil 1 5W30 for my Kool Bore snow thrower engine and it eats it at an alarming rate.  I switched to a convention 5W30 high mileage and oil consumption is down.  Not eliminated but certainly less.   

Most fuel additives are nothing more than a gimmick.  Some may provide fuel stabilization for a while but even if it does, it will not cure bad fuel management. 

Here's something to try.  Take two containers of the same fuel and add stabilizer to one container only.  Ensure that both are completely full and tightly sealed.  Leave them for the same period of time, as long as you want.  Take them out and test them to see what condition the fuel is in.  Let us know how that turns out.

If a person doesn't have the wits to completely fill their fuel tanks for storage, they likely won't have the brains to buy and add fuel stabilizer either. 

Ok I guess i will put my 2 cents in.


Personally i drain the fuel out of both the tank and the carb on all my OPE when the season for that equipment is over.  I also do an oil change at the same time.  If the OPE has a metal gas tank i give it a spritz wd40 just to coat the inside of the tank.  I then replace the cap and leave it alone. I also pull the spark plug and put a couple of squirts of motor oil in the cylinder and pull it over a few times leaving the engine at TDC on compression stroke, i then replace the spark plug and put it away for the season.


During the summer months I use enough gasoline that it never get a chance to get stale, however in the winter my fuel may sit for months without getting used.  I do treat my winter fuel with stabil and have never had a problem with any of my winter OPE.  I cant say that it is doing anything good or bad I just know that my engines always start when I need them to.

Since i carefully go over my snow blower before i put it away at the end of the season, I never even put fuel in it unless snow is falling.  I don't see any need to have fuel in it because I am 99.9% certain that it will start and run properly when it needs to.

I store my 69 camaro for the winter and it has always been stored with a full tank of stabil treated fuel and has never not started in the spring.

Ni per99,

      Doing that many machines a year you must fall onto many dead engines with carb bowls that have pushbutton drains.   A simpleton can take care of his carb with a push button drain.

 

      The pushbutton bowl s I collect go on machines I fix-up to sell.   A pushbutton kit is available for very little.  I got four once and converted spare bowls to pushbuttons.   Many people I sell to are first time buyers of a snowblowers and don’t have a clue about maintenance on any OPE.  I give every buyer a printout of my “Guide to Eternal Happiness” which details what to do about gas for the season and storage (Don’t depend on additives).  

 

     This year the machines I sold all come with a year startup guarantee.   I tell them to use fresh gas, don’t depend on stabilizers and prep your machine when done for the season or leave gas in and start it occasionally.     

I never said that I don't believe in stabilizer, all I wanted to point out is the fact that the stabilizers have some critical Missing info. For example: every one agrees that gasoline work for a engine, but not every one agrees that stabilizer is doing anything at all. I'm personly using it cus I'm new to ope. But the mistery is flashing a red light in my brain about the honisty of it

trouts...

90% of all customers dont even know what a carb is!!! let alone drian fuel from it... and i do agree with u as not depending on stabilizer on its own...thats why in a previous post i mentioned that without using stabilizer in your fuel i would replace fuel after a 1 month...with stabilizer 2-3 tops... but the more often the better...once a month is a good rule of thumb....but the fact is people DONT do it.... and like i said i would tune up snowblower in the summer as a customer request... and by the time the snow starts flying they wont start... not all of them but id get 5 or 6 at least every year.... and that leaves me with a warranty....every since i started using stabilizer i ve maybe had one in the last 5 years...makes a pretty good believer in me..

wheather u believe it or not it ONLY COST $5-10 for the hole season....just for peace of mind its worth it...

niper99 wrote:
This reminds me of a buying experience at Best Buy.

Cashier boy:  "Would you like to buy the extended warranty for $4.99, covers you 5 years if you ever drop it or anything goes wrong, we replace it."

Me:  "No thanks, it's only a $15 alarm clock!, they're probably not going to make these old LED clocks anymore, what would you replace it with?  An iphone?"

Speaking of iPhones, since Steve jobs died, apple is going down the drain.

 The latest release of iOS 5 is "Full" of memory leaks and bugs.

I was an apple fan for over 13 years, till now when I feel of giving up my iPhone and switch over to android.

 Most common bugs; slower performance, poor battery life, lack off the new flash and last but not least, the "Home-button-not- responding bug" and apple is not even doing anything to it!   Was not the case with S.J.  even the new operating system Lion is full of bugs.  And about their new final cut pro, which they "killed".  
So yeh... I'm not buying a warranty on my iPhone. With what will apple replace it with, android?!

trouts2 wrote:

TROUTS2, As a true simpleton could you tell me where I could procure a pushbutton drain bowl for a 2011 Toro 221 with a 141cc R-Tek? Thanks.

ralphfr,

   Google Tecumseh 27136A and you'll get scads of places and prices.  When I got mine they seemed impossible to put on and if I ever managed to get it on would never work right.  It turned out they are easy to install and work fine.  With a flat head screwdriver pushing the button and a cup it makes a no mess drain of the bowl ease. 

trouts2 wrote:

hey trouts,,

have u had good luck with the drians in the carb???.... because i havent any luck with them..lve had alot of them leak fuel and have had alot of compliants by customers....and have stopped using them as of recently.... they make sense for sure and serve as a very usefull idea....the problem i think that happens is when u drian some old fuel out the little bit of dirt thats in the bottom of the bowl comes out aswell of course as designed... the drawback is that dirt sticks to the drian valve and causes a fuel leak...

  I have not had a problem with leaks.  Maybe I've been lucky.  

 

trouts2 wrote:

TROUTS2 You're not kidding. This part is all over the place.Thanks for the info and Happy New Year!

Ralphfr