Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Happy holidays every one! ... bought the toro 1028 OXE back in October, right after the very first early snow storm. Was not able to try it in snow... I added the startron stabilizer And filled up the tank with 93 octane. I tested the new baby, showed off without spinning augers... But now it's a long time unused. My question is: is it okay for the fuel to sit in the carb for such a long time? Thanks!

I've never seen a carb (excluding diaphram carbs) that didn't have an accessible float bowl.  Even cheap plastic Lawn Boy carbs have a removable float bowl.  If you do come across one, you could just blow a bit of compressed air into the fuel line to the carb.  That should remove pretty much everything in the float bowl.  Go easy on the pressure.  Maybe 10 psi.  Don't want to put too much stress on the components inside the float bowl. 

The point I'm trying to make is that fuel additives have never shown a benefit for me other than the "illusion that they may be working" caused by some desire to think that they are.  

In some instances, an additive might help remove carbon build up from a two cycle engine  piston and/or head.  However, I've never seen enough carbon in a two cycle engine that needed to be cleaned out.  Today's two cycle engines run pretty clean and don't build up much carbon.

Last summer I scored three old Lawn Boy mowers that weren't running.  I took them apart and found the internals to be in great shape and the exhaust ports very clean on the two new ones (early 70s and just a bit of build up on the oldest one a 1965.  So that engine is over 45 years old and you can bet that it burned old fashioned engine oil rather than today's modern two cycle oils.  You can also rest assured that it likely never saw any additives either and it had only a bit of carbon on the exhaust port perimeter.  Hardly enough to effect performance nor to be concerned about. 

We put way too faith and emphasis on products that provide very little tangible reward.  We delude ourselves into believing that they're doing a fine job when in fact, there is no job for them to do.  I've yet to see any additive clean a dirty carb.  Yet we have people making such claims and more all the time.  I'll say this, if they were having carb problems and used an elixir to fix it, chances are the carb would have cleared itself just by passage of gasoline. 

Snake oil will never replace good mechanical practices and regular maintenance despite what the "believers" say.   The sooner one embraces that philosophy, the sooner they will relinquish their dependence on their magic elixir of choice.   

Here’s their claim for their gas treatment product:

 

Formulated with High Energy Solvent Technology (H.E.S.T.) to clean all internal system circuits by chemically dissolving varnish, carbon and gum deposits. Thoroughly cleans fuel jets, carburetor circuits, fuel pump and combustion chamber for faster starts, smoother idling and maximum fuel economy.

 

“High Energy”, sound potent.  You used it straight and found out just how “High Energy” it was. 

 

I use their (Berymans)1 gallon dip.  It’s not that great.  I double dip with the second run going through NAPA’s 1 gallon dip.  Both are not so good but I think they do dissolve some forms of gum and dirt and weaken others to the point they can be scrapped, prodded or blown clean.  Given what the claims are for chemical carb dips I think they were more potent in the past compared to now, sort of EPA tamed. 

 

>>>I can say that I typically put stabilizer in my gas between seasons (but not always, I'm sure), and I have not had trouble the next time I go to start them.

    There may or may not be a cause and effect there. 

 

    It all depends on storage conditions, hot, dry, cool.  It also depends on the venting of the carb and air flow around the carb when stored.   I know one guy who has never done anything with his machine for storage.  He stores his machine with gas and no line shutoff in a closed shed under a big tree so always shaded.  His machine after 12 seasons still starts on the first pull with “stale” last seasons gas.

 

>>>What do you suggest for engines without drains in the carb bowls? Just run them dry?

    There is almost always a bowl nut which can be loosened enough to get a good flow out.  Running them dry requires emptying the tank for most people and a pain.  I use a boat hand bailing pump but also use a 3 foot tube for siphoning which is much faster and gets more out than the bailer.

 

>>>I know people say that a smaller amount of gas will still be left in the bowl,

   The amount of  gum and residue left from a small amount of gas in the bowl will make a very thin film and not disturb anything over 20 seasons.  The killer is leaving gas in the tank with no line shutoff and in a hot place.  That will take only a month or two to gum up a carb.  Everytime the bowl drains more gas can come in. 

   

   Some storage conditions, probably most, add layers per year and after 2-5 years cause a no start.   Say someone stores at the end of the season with old versus fresh gas.  That’s a 3-4 month jump on having a problem.  The gas may be very yellow by then and carrying lots of water going into storage.

 

Borat,

   Just for the heck of it this year I left gas in all the machines here last winter.  I did start them occasionally but was away most of the summer.  No problem starting them this fall.

    For the summer camp I do the same as you and have no problem.  Gas is up there waiting for me for next summer.  I do cheat on the mower though and ran it dry as a mower is easy to run low at the end of the season. 

 

   For various reasons I get a lot of left over gas here.  I used to run it in my car.  These days I tank it by letting it sit in containers for a few days.  The dirt and water sink to a blob at the bottom and I draw off the top which is usually clear and use it in my own machines.  If the gas is a very deep yellow to amber I’ll toss it.

I'm still confused about the extra additives the fuel have? And why are they adding more stuff into high octane fuel? And were can I research "what" it is in the benefits of it?

Check this link out....this is for all the nah sayers out there....and this is striaght from brigggs & stratton....   http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Fresh%20Start%20Fuel%20Stabilizer%20-%20Features%20and%20Benefits/

Additives are put into the gasoline after it is formulated. The formulation determines the octane level of the gasoline. The additives are required by engine manufacturers to remove the small amounts of combustion byproducts that can be deposited in the combustion chambers and the valves. The additive package is independent of octane level. In other words, the additive package is identical for 87 octane gasoline and 93 octane gasoline. The 93 octane gasoline does not have more "stuff" than 87 octane gasoline.

niper99,

   The link is to Briggs marketing info.  There are no test results, no data sheets, nothing about how the product works.  It’s all claims that you can find on hundreds of gas additive products.  There is nothing there to back their claims only claims.

 

   You have their product on-hand and it’s easy enough to get two clean cups.  Put some mixed additive in the cup with 20-30 drops of water and see what happens.  Put gas and water in another cup with no additive and see if there is any difference after a few days to a week. 

 

Borat,

   Remember those SeaFoam tests?  The other day I was cleaning up a bench and came across test the containers with SeaFoam and another that had Sta-bil.  Two of the SeaFram containers still had liquid SeaFoam.  The cellar is dry and a surprise it never dried out.  The Sta-bil was evaporated and stuck to the cup.  It would do the same in a gas tank or carb. 

    The SeaFoam did not evaporate.  If someone wanted a product that did not work and did not work for a long time SeaFoam would be a superior product.

   For whatever SeaFoam dosen’t do it may have lubricating properties and help small particles pass through holes and passageways.  It might be as valuable as Mystery oil or adding a few drops of oil to a tank of gas.

I still say "nah...". No one is talking about the actual engreediance mixture that creates it as a stabilizer! All I read is one big promis that it can handle all... Fact is, that every one knows from what FUEL is made of... And we also understand the physics of it, so we trust that expansive liquid and we use them. Vs. stabilizing is unknown and in the complete darkness, and go search around and find out that every brand uses more and more Fancy marketing advertisements. Let me ask you a question, when your hot and thirsty you want orange juice, right? Why?, because you KNOW the properties of oranges and you understand WHY it will help you!! Got my point?

Believing in additives is a lot like religion.   Don't ask the hard questions, don't challenge the unbelievable.  Just lay down your money and trust that ye shall be delivered!

I personally don't  care if people want to use "mechanic in can, magic elixirs and miracle cures".  That's their choice.  However, I do have a problem with people touting the effectiveness of these wonders without one iota of substantiation.   It's misleading to say the least. 

Don't you just love it when an inexperienced person asks for information on how to clean a carb and half a dozen guys recommend their magic elixir of choice?   No guidance on how to disassemble a carb, clean the jets and galleries etc.  Just spray some of this miracle fluid in the carb and that will fix things......  If that doesn't work, show the carb the elixir's container so that it understands what it's up against.  If that doesn't straighten things out, reach for the stuff the world has been keeping from the Russians.  You know, the stuff that soooo good that if the Ruskies get it, it will upset the balance of global power..... Yeah, that stuff.......

Yea... at least borat is on my side…

But honestly, I did believe my dealer and I got the “magic” additive.

My goal is; To learn the basic insides of OPW so I can batter operate it and maintain it.

Regarding the octane debate, I got here a 95% knowledge.

But as far as stabilizer, I’m even MORE CONFUSED! Why? Keep on reading:

This is from B&S site; http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Fresh%20Start%20Fuel%20Stabilizer%20-%20Features%20and%20Benefits/

Eliminates the need for end-of-season fuel draining. Not only is the draining of fuel an environmental concern but also keeping your fuel system wet with fuel prevents rubber seals and gaskets from drying out. Whether storing your fuel in the tank or in a container, it absolutely needs Fresh Start!  

- - - - - - - - -

Got that?

They are clearly saying that running the carburetor “dry” “will” cause damage to the rubber seals and gaskets!!

Questions here:

1)      Will a dry carb VOID manufacture Warrantee?!

2)      Since they use the word “prevents” and not “may prevent” is a indication of a “For sure damage”; if so, why aren’t they list it properly under the warning paragraph in the owners manual?   

3)      Why in the world is draining of fuel an environmental concern? Is it more of a concern as an oil change??

4)      When a product can’t be prescribed normal and to the point, (like additives) advertisement of it is in need of bringing up negative concerns to use the human guilt feelings as a tool to up the sales…

I’m waiting for answers…

lm not saying its a "FIX" to anything....what lm saying is its HELPS pervent stale fuel....which in turn causes no starts for customers and big bills to repair..... and the average customer doesnt know how to drian there out there machine when it becomes stale...nor are there intrested in ripping there carb apart to clean it... when they have no clue in how to do so...  and your claim as to it not working has no backing whats so ever other than your personal opinion......briggs has just a little bit more expierence than all of us... and there recomending it to be used because they dont want there customer buying a brand new machine and the first season its sits a peroid of time for it not start..because that just buts a bad taste in peoples mouth... and there most likey to return the unit or not buy a briggs product in the future.... and briggs is putting it in all there new mowers fuel caps... there not doing that to sell stabilizers... its to pervent stale fuel and unhappy customers.

and my opinion on stabilizers is based on servicing 300 units/year for the last 10 years...not just on 5 or 6 machines i have of my own... in my opinion for the cost of stabilizer for the hole year which for most people would cost about $10.... it just doesnt make sense not to use it.... because lm yet to see anybody have something negative about stabilizer yet...and your NOT going to see the stabilizer working becuase theres nothing see it keeps fuel fresh and helps maintian the octance rating so your not gonna see anything happening... other than your snowblower starts everytime...