Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Happy holidays every one! ... bought the toro 1028 OXE back in October, right after the very first early snow storm. Was not able to try it in snow... I added the startron stabilizer And filled up the tank with 93 octane. I tested the new baby, showed off without spinning augers... But now it's a long time unused. My question is: is it okay for the fuel to sit in the carb for such a long time? Thanks!

borat wrote:

You could very well be correct.

Or

I could pour a little stabilizer in my fuel can and fuel tanks and I shouldn't need to: "Drain the tank, run the carb dry and/or drain the float bowl".

FWIW, I don't find stabiliozers to be all that expensive. Less than $10 will buy enough Stabil to treat 25 gallons of fuel and about $7 will buy enough Seafoam to treat 16 gallons.

   Sta-bil at least won't prevent gumming which is mainly from evaporation.  Try putting some in a cup and let it sit around for weeks or months and see what happens.  Sta-bil evaporates along with the gas and leaves a pink film.

   What does Sta-bil do for water?  Put some gas treated with Sta-bil in a white cup or class along with some water and see what happen over the weeks and months. 
Shake the container every so often to get the gas to cloud up with water giving Sta-bil more chance to act.  It dosen't do anything to the water.  The water always forms a blob at the bottom every time and over months. 

   As far as changing the molecular structure of gas I've never seen a claim about that on any additive site and for sure not Sta-bil's site.  Lots of claims but nothing about how it works.  If that had some secret sauce they would tout it. 

Hey Trouts,

I can't believe how many participants actually believe in fuel additives. 

It would appear that you and I have conducted enough experiments to know, that in general, they're virtually useless.   I was a sucker for that stuff for years but have since given it up. 

Some people learn and some don't.

I'm not disputing what you guys have found. You have way more experience with it than I do. I can say that I typically put stabilizer in my gas between seasons (but not always, I'm sure), and I have not had trouble the next time I go to start them.

What do you suggest for engines without drains in the carb bowls? Just run them dry? I know people say that a smaller amount of gas will still be left in the bowl, if you do that. I could see, for instance, running them dry, after putting stabilizer in the gas, to help the amount that's left.

Even if stabilizer doesn't do much, I typically don't use it mid-season, when I'm going through gas quickly. So maybe it costs me a few dollars a year. I have no problem paying that for a bit of peace of mind, even if that's perhaps all it gets me I will say that using Chemtool B12 to try and clean some carb parts was somewhat interesting. I was using it straight, and it certainly wasn't just dissolving the junk on the parts I was soaking. So it did make me curious what it's able to do when mixed into gas at a much lower ratio. But I'd already tried to clean some of the junk off the parts. It's also possible that I'd already removed what it would have helped loosen.

I've never seen a carb (excluding diaphram carbs) that didn't have an accessible float bowl.  Even cheap plastic Lawn Boy carbs have a removable float bowl.  If you do come across one, you could just blow a bit of compressed air into the fuel line to the carb.  That should remove pretty much everything in the float bowl.  Go easy on the pressure.  Maybe 10 psi.  Don't want to put too much stress on the components inside the float bowl. 

The point I'm trying to make is that fuel additives have never shown a benefit for me other than the "illusion that they may be working" caused by some desire to think that they are.  

In some instances, an additive might help remove carbon build up from a two cycle engine  piston and/or head.  However, I've never seen enough carbon in a two cycle engine that needed to be cleaned out.  Today's two cycle engines run pretty clean and don't build up much carbon.

Last summer I scored three old Lawn Boy mowers that weren't running.  I took them apart and found the internals to be in great shape and the exhaust ports very clean on the two new ones (early 70s and just a bit of build up on the oldest one a 1965.  So that engine is over 45 years old and you can bet that it burned old fashioned engine oil rather than today's modern two cycle oils.  You can also rest assured that it likely never saw any additives either and it had only a bit of carbon on the exhaust port perimeter.  Hardly enough to effect performance nor to be concerned about. 

We put way too faith and emphasis on products that provide very little tangible reward.  We delude ourselves into believing that they're doing a fine job when in fact, there is no job for them to do.  I've yet to see any additive clean a dirty carb.  Yet we have people making such claims and more all the time.  I'll say this, if they were having carb problems and used an elixir to fix it, chances are the carb would have cleared itself just by passage of gasoline. 

Snake oil will never replace good mechanical practices and regular maintenance despite what the "believers" say.   The sooner one embraces that philosophy, the sooner they will relinquish their dependence on their magic elixir of choice.   

Here’s their claim for their gas treatment product:

 

Formulated with High Energy Solvent Technology (H.E.S.T.) to clean all internal system circuits by chemically dissolving varnish, carbon and gum deposits. Thoroughly cleans fuel jets, carburetor circuits, fuel pump and combustion chamber for faster starts, smoother idling and maximum fuel economy.

 

“High Energy”, sound potent.  You used it straight and found out just how “High Energy” it was. 

 

I use their (Berymans)1 gallon dip.  It’s not that great.  I double dip with the second run going through NAPA’s 1 gallon dip.  Both are not so good but I think they do dissolve some forms of gum and dirt and weaken others to the point they can be scrapped, prodded or blown clean.  Given what the claims are for chemical carb dips I think they were more potent in the past compared to now, sort of EPA tamed. 

 

>>>I can say that I typically put stabilizer in my gas between seasons (but not always, I'm sure), and I have not had trouble the next time I go to start them.

    There may or may not be a cause and effect there. 

 

    It all depends on storage conditions, hot, dry, cool.  It also depends on the venting of the carb and air flow around the carb when stored.   I know one guy who has never done anything with his machine for storage.  He stores his machine with gas and no line shutoff in a closed shed under a big tree so always shaded.  His machine after 12 seasons still starts on the first pull with “stale” last seasons gas.

 

>>>What do you suggest for engines without drains in the carb bowls? Just run them dry?

    There is almost always a bowl nut which can be loosened enough to get a good flow out.  Running them dry requires emptying the tank for most people and a pain.  I use a boat hand bailing pump but also use a 3 foot tube for siphoning which is much faster and gets more out than the bailer.

 

>>>I know people say that a smaller amount of gas will still be left in the bowl,

   The amount of  gum and residue left from a small amount of gas in the bowl will make a very thin film and not disturb anything over 20 seasons.  The killer is leaving gas in the tank with no line shutoff and in a hot place.  That will take only a month or two to gum up a carb.  Everytime the bowl drains more gas can come in. 

   

   Some storage conditions, probably most, add layers per year and after 2-5 years cause a no start.   Say someone stores at the end of the season with old versus fresh gas.  That’s a 3-4 month jump on having a problem.  The gas may be very yellow by then and carrying lots of water going into storage.

 

Borat,

   Just for the heck of it this year I left gas in all the machines here last winter.  I did start them occasionally but was away most of the summer.  No problem starting them this fall.

    For the summer camp I do the same as you and have no problem.  Gas is up there waiting for me for next summer.  I do cheat on the mower though and ran it dry as a mower is easy to run low at the end of the season. 

 

   For various reasons I get a lot of left over gas here.  I used to run it in my car.  These days I tank it by letting it sit in containers for a few days.  The dirt and water sink to a blob at the bottom and I draw off the top which is usually clear and use it in my own machines.  If the gas is a very deep yellow to amber I’ll toss it.

I'm still confused about the extra additives the fuel have? And why are they adding more stuff into high octane fuel? And were can I research "what" it is in the benefits of it?

Check this link out....this is for all the nah sayers out there....and this is striaght from brigggs & stratton....   http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/support/frequently-asked-questions/B%20and%20S%20Fresh%20Start%20Fuel%20Stabilizer%20-%20Features%20and%20Benefits/

Additives are put into the gasoline after it is formulated. The formulation determines the octane level of the gasoline. The additives are required by engine manufacturers to remove the small amounts of combustion byproducts that can be deposited in the combustion chambers and the valves. The additive package is independent of octane level. In other words, the additive package is identical for 87 octane gasoline and 93 octane gasoline. The 93 octane gasoline does not have more "stuff" than 87 octane gasoline.

niper99,

   The link is to Briggs marketing info.  There are no test results, no data sheets, nothing about how the product works.  It’s all claims that you can find on hundreds of gas additive products.  There is nothing there to back their claims only claims.

 

   You have their product on-hand and it’s easy enough to get two clean cups.  Put some mixed additive in the cup with 20-30 drops of water and see what happens.  Put gas and water in another cup with no additive and see if there is any difference after a few days to a week. 

 

Borat,

   Remember those SeaFoam tests?  The other day I was cleaning up a bench and came across test the containers with SeaFoam and another that had Sta-bil.  Two of the SeaFram containers still had liquid SeaFoam.  The cellar is dry and a surprise it never dried out.  The Sta-bil was evaporated and stuck to the cup.  It would do the same in a gas tank or carb. 

    The SeaFoam did not evaporate.  If someone wanted a product that did not work and did not work for a long time SeaFoam would be a superior product.

   For whatever SeaFoam dosen’t do it may have lubricating properties and help small particles pass through holes and passageways.  It might be as valuable as Mystery oil or adding a few drops of oil to a tank of gas.