Abby’s Guide > Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) > Discussions > Ariens Platinum ST30DLE or Toro Power Max® 1028OXE Please help!
Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions |
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tgseaver
Joined: Jan 3, 2011
Points: 4
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Original Message Oct 14, 2011 6:27 am |
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Going back and forth as to which one! Same price, Local dealers that service, like the look of both. Kinda leaning toward the Ariens only cause of the bigger engine 342 vs 305,is that a good reason?,or is 28" Toro a little more nibble to move around. Ariens seem to have more metal and less plastic, see I go back and forth.Please help ! Need to buy soon! Thanks for your suggestions.
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klennop
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Points: 5
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Reply #21 Oct 19, 2011 9:17 am |
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Yamaha and Honda high end models (which we don't get in the US) comes with metal chutes that are lined with plastic. Some members of this forum also have lined their chutes with plastic with benefits of slippery surface for higher chute velocity and less snow/ice sticking. So they do come with plastic, strategically placed where it makes sense. Honda and Yamaha is not going to crazy with plastic everywhere because customers dropping $3000+ on a snowblower as a long term investment is going to expect a good amount of metal.
While cheaper brands do utilize more plastics, it is not an indicator of poorer quality. How it's used and where it's used is more important. Homeowner snowblower are usually designed with higher convenience and ease of use in mind. The Quick Stick feature of the Toro is only possible with the use of plastic chute. Metal chutes are too heavy to move around quickly using the Quick Stick mechanism.
Also cheaper brands do have more plastics in them, to meet price points that big box store customers expect, on top of the promotion and sales going on. Consumers wants cheap OPE with big engines and features, whether or not they consciously aware of the trade offs in quality and performance.
For commercial use, the perception is that plastic chute will not hold up to the constant bombardment of snow and other debris. This is partially true. Design engineers don't go out of their way to change commercial user perception of plastic, just give them what they want and call it a day. Properly designed chutes and material selection can make plastic chute just as good as metal chute, but why go change their mind if they want they don't want to.
Toro has always been criticized for using too much plastic in their snowblower. A lot of that comes from non-Toro owners who do not own or use Toro. However, there aren't too many actual Toro owners complaining about the plastics failing. People are usually more apt to voice their dissatisfaction than praise. If there is any complaint, it is the lightweight front end which tends to ride over the snow more easily than heavier buckets. Other than that, Toro overall as a snowblower system seems to work and people have been happy. I do agree with you on most of what you are saying but I just want to point a couple things out. I am spending $1600+ on a snowblower so why should I settle for a bunch of plastic when the Ariens has all metal like the more expensive models. If the use of plastic isn't a indicator of poor quality on main components then why do all the high end models not use a full plastic chute or have their controls made out of plastic? You may be right about the Quick Stick on the Toro not being able to work because of the weight of the metal chute. Well then why not make the controls out of metal to work with a metal chute? It is to save on cost right? Well then how come they don't beef up the motor to the same size of the Areins with all the money they saved using the plastic parts. I don't see any of the savings passed on to the consumer. I have been pretty lucky with the plastic chute on my Crapsman but you know there were quite a few times I was expecting to have a hole. So have I been lucky...maybe...or does the plastic work like it should?? I just have a hard time buying another machine with the plastic chute. We get into the 40 below with windchill where I am at and again maybe I have been lucky. As far as snow sticking to the metal, I have never had an issue with this on any device I have used in the past so I don't see that as being a problem. As I also mentioned earlier if the plastic chute aids in less resistance, why does the Toro throw the snow less distance than the Ariens with a metal chute? I do agree with the comment about the light front, like I also said earlier, you can buy a weight for $80 more to rectify this. For what? To make it like the Ariens where you don't have to pay extra. I have nothing against Toro, I have owned 2 mowers, one of the smaller power curve units and an older larger Toro with the power shift system. I just feel like they are cheaping out vs the competition. Would I be happy with either unit, probably but I think bang for buck the Areins wins. I may go look at them again today.
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FrankMA
 
Location: Merrimack Valley/Northeastern Mass
Joined: Jul 1, 2010
Points: 587
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Reply #22 Oct 19, 2011 9:53 am |
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klennop: All your posts seem to favor the Ariens unit so why not go for it. I can understand your apprehension about the plastic vs. steel even though I firmly believe that this is not an issue (although I prefer steel over plastic as well). Steel is not that expensive and high end plastics are not cheap so the overall cost savings to the manufacturer may not be as much as one might think. In the end, it all comes down to what you feel most comfortable with and perceive to be the best bang for your hard earned buck. You're going to be the guy behind the dash during horrendous weather conditions so you'll want to be as comfortable and pleased with your purchase as possible.
Toro Wheel Horse 522xi GT, Honda HS928TA, Honda HS621AS, Honda HS520A, Toro CCR3000 (work in progress), Honda HS624WA (sold 08/23/2010), Stihl BR550 Backpack Blower, Stihl MS250, McCulloch MS1635, Honda EM6500SX Generator
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aa335
Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434
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Reply #23 Oct 19, 2011 11:22 am |
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I do agree with you on most of what you are saying but I just want to point a couple things out.
I am spending $1600+ on a snowblower so why should I settle for a bunch of plastic when the Ariens has all metal like the more expensive models. If the use of plastic isn't a indicator of poor quality on main components then why do all the high end models not use a full plastic chute or have their controls made out of plastic?
This is a common perception and expectation, it's your money. Again, high end models cater to expectations of robust high quality metals. If a customer believe in high performance plastics, you can bet that there will be more plastics.
You may be right about the Quick Stick on the Toro not being able to work because of the weight of the metal chute. Well then why not make the controls out of metal to work with a metal chute? It is to save on cost right? Well then how come they don't beef up the motor to the same size of the Areins with all the money they saved using the plastic parts. I don't see any of the savings passed on to the consumer.
The metals thing is Arien's sales pitch, metals here and there, cast iron this and that. And it works, holds up to expectations. There's a lot of long time Arien's customer that would abandon Ariens if they were to drastically employ more plastic. Toro chooses to be more innovative, risk taking, and use smart engineering to employ plastics. It's a good thing, why offer the same thing as Ariens and have a dead heat contest. Toro offer different things that attracts would be Arien's customers, such as user friendliness and ergonomics. Toro historically have enjoyed high profit margins, and they have strict pricing policy on dealers, and that's the cash that allows them to be innovative and strong service network, instead of passing that savings on to the customer.
I have been pretty lucky with the plastic chute on my Crapsman but you know there were quite a few times I was expecting to have a hole. So have I been lucky...maybe...or does the plastic work like it should?? I just have a hard time buying another machine with the plastic chute. We get into the 40 below with windchill where I am at and again maybe I have been lucky.
This is a warm and fuzzy personal decision. It's neither right or wrong. Maybe over time, your confidence in plastics may change.
As far as snow sticking to the metal, I have never had an issue with this on any device I have used in the past so I don't see that as being a problem.
I haven't had problems with my metal chute either, and it throws snow pretty far as is. I do like my metal chute and the worm gear rotation, its very slow to operate, requires proper lubrication and cleaning, but it stays put, no slop or flopping around. However, I do like the Quick Stick convenience.
As I also mentioned earlier if the plastic chute aids in less resistance, why does the Toro throw the snow less distance than the Ariens with a metal chute?
There is no recognized standard in testing snow throwing distance. Manufacturers can post any figure they want to be competitive. Throwing distance is an aggregate performance of the overall system, chute design/material is one of the variables. I'm not so enamored by throwing distance anymore, throughput and the ability to put snow precisely where I want is more important.
I do agree with the comment about the light front, like I also said earlier, you can buy a weight for $80 more to rectify this. For what? To make it like the Ariens where you don't have to pay extra.
I think add on accessories such as weights, drift cutters, covers, and lights have ridiculously high profit margins. Ariens include some of these accessories, and that's great to win sales. But they're not giving them away, it's lumped in with the price.
I have nothing against Toro, I have owned 2 mowers, one of the smaller power curve units and an older larger Toro with the power shift system. I just feel like they are cheaping out vs the competition. Would I be happy with either unit, probably but I think bang for buck the Areins wins. I may go look at them again today.
I have a Toro mower and single stage snowblower myself. At times, I feel like it could be a bit more beefy and more feature rich, considering the price. However, it just works! (Like a Mac). Honda and Snapper lawn mowers are nicely built, but it didn't win me over with its idiosyncracies. Because my preference for mowers and single stage snowblower is that they should be straightforward, simple to operate, and agile.
This message was modified Oct 19, 2011 by aa335
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klennop
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Points: 5
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Reply #24 Oct 19, 2011 5:11 pm |
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FrankMA,
You are right about my posts favoring the Ariens because based on specs, it seems like the winning machine. Also like I said earlier, I went in to buy an Areins but started thinking about the Toro. I figured why not post exactly what has been running through my head, maybe it would help someone else in my position, or maybe it wouldn't.
Now if the cost of the plastics vs steel is close to the same, why is the price point of the Toro higher with a smaller engine, and you need to add things to make it comparable to the Areins. It just doesn't seem like a deal to the consumer. When breaking it down like I did earlier, the Ariens just seems to edge the Toro out. Not one person has said why the Toro is so much better on this forum. Everyone seems to say well you will be happy with either. So I am trying to find someone to show me why the Toro is better than the Ariens, that's all. I am not trying to start an argument or shove the Ariens down someones throat but just pointing out what I see.
aa335
I understand the whole consumer expecting more metal for their money depending on what they are buying. However speaking of performance you don't see anything high performance made out of all steel unless it is made for durability like a tractor, rototiller, snowblower, etc. You mentioned Toro not pitching all Steel like the Areins but you don't see them pitching anything about the innovative plastics either. I think it is more for saving money on their end and yes it takes money to be innovative but it isn't like the competition is standing still either. True they don't have to pass on all the savings to the consumer but at the same time, then they should make the machines even more comparable. If that Toro had the larger engine, maybe I wouldn't be so apt to be swayed towards the Ariens?
Also true there is no standard in throwing distance, what would be nice is a standard in how much volume a blower can move or something to that nature.
Yes all manufactures offer add ons, like everything else that is manufactured. My point was just that why add another $80 to a machine that is already a little more expensive than the competition to make it on par with the competition.
And for the record I am a Mac guy, we have 2 Macs however we also have 2 PC's. I would take a Mac over the PC but I am not even going to go there.
Everyone does have their own opinions on this, which is why I keep sharing what I am thinking, etc. I didn't have time to look at the machines again. Hopefully tomorrow, I will let you know what I decide but I think everyone knows which way I am leaning.
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aa335
Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434
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Reply #25 Oct 19, 2011 6:15 pm |
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I guess I don't see Toro pitching their plastics because its a loosing battle against steel. Why draw attention to plastic when it's perceived as inferior? They sure don't have any problems selling their plastic products without a whole lot of hoopla. Their media material and website is very straight forward, customer use focused, not specifications focused. Some people are frustrated about this approach, some just don't care as much. The fact that you are closely considering Toro versus Ariens means that Toro is doing something right. Toro is priced higher than Ariens for the same features, plastic and all, but people are still cross shopping. Last year, Ariens picked on Toro 210 single stage snowblower with their Sno-Tek 2 stage 24" snowblower, on the premise that they are both priced about the same. It was quite a cheesy attempt on Youtube. Its like pitting $25,000 Mini Cooper against a $25,000 a pickup truck in a contest of hauling 6 people across town. This year, Ariens firing another salvo with the Pro 28 with crazy 400cc engine and some heavy metal hardware, for $2000, to steer Toro customers away, or some kind of statement as the most powerful end of drive pile buster. Will it work? Maybe...or will it have the sophistication of a pony car? I guess I'm having trouble understanding how a 15 hp snowblower with a 28" wide opening isn't going to buck around like a wild mustang when chewing crusty heavy snow. Manufacturers charge whatever they can on accessories, whether it's a for a car or snowblower. It's high profit and it would be foolish for them not to tap this revenue. Being on par is poor marketing, "me too" and commodity driven. To win market share, it has to be compellingly different. Otherwise, all you have to choose between is Orange or Red, Buick or Pontiac. I have a Mac at home, I use PC at work. I like the simplicity of Mac when I'm home, the flexibility of PC when at work. They both coexist fine. I'd take a Mac if given just one to pick. I'm at an age that I don't care to tweak and adjust, I just want to work right out of the box, everyday!
This message was modified Oct 19, 2011 by aa335
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Steve_Cebu
Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Points: 888
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Reply #26 Oct 19, 2011 10:17 pm |
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I do agree with you on most of what you are saying but I just want to point a couple things out.
I am spending $1600+ on a snowblower so why should I settle for a bunch of plastic when the Ariens has all metal like the more expensive models. If the use of plastic isn't a indicator of poor quality on main components then why do all the high end models not use a full plastic chute or have their controls made out of plastic?
You may be right about the Quick Stick on the Toro not being able to work because of the weight of the metal chute. Well then why not make the controls out of metal to work with a metal chute? It is to save on cost right? Well then how come they don't beef up the motor to the same size of the Areins with all the money they saved using the plastic parts. I don't see any of the savings passed on to the consumer.
I have been pretty lucky with the plastic chute on my Crapsman but you know there were quite a few times I was expecting to have a hole. So have I been lucky...maybe...or does the plastic work like it should?? I just have a hard time buying another machine with the plastic chute. We get into the 40 below with windchill where I am at and again maybe I have been lucky.
As far as snow sticking to the metal, I have never had an issue with this on any device I have used in the past so I don't see that as being a problem.
As I also mentioned earlier if the plastic chute aids in less resistance, why does the Toro throw the snow less distance than the Ariens with a metal chute?
I do agree with the comment about the light front, like I also said earlier, you can buy a weight for $80 more to rectify this. For what? To make it like the Ariens where you don't have to pay extra.
I have nothing against Toro, I have owned 2 mowers, one of the smaller power curve units and an older larger Toro with the power shift system. I just feel like they are cheaping out vs the competition. Would I be happy with either unit, probably but I think bang for buck the Areins wins. I may go look at them again today.
Well as I said you hear a lot of people worrying about the platic breaking but under normal use it generally doesn't break. sure if you back your car into the chute or something it'll break. Also Toro and Craftsman are very different companies.
Bottom line your Craftsman didn't break and more than a few Toro owners on here haven't had theirs break either, so in your mind you think plastic = weak and metal = strong. The reality is that it depends on conditions and type of metal or plastic. Metal is not ideal for very cold enviroments. Plastic is more stable. But if you like the Ariens, go for it, it's a decent machine but a lot harder to steer for my wife and I.
"If you have more miles on your snow blower than your car, you live in New England." "If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard without flinching, you live in New England."
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mvedepo
Joined: Oct 1, 2011
Points: 32
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Reply #27 Oct 20, 2011 2:58 am |
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Just get the Ariens Pro 28 and call it a day. Thats what I did afte r considering the models you are here. 28 inches and a 420 cc for motivation. :)
This message was modified Oct 20, 2011 by mvedepo
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