Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

UPDATE FROM BEN07 FEB. 3RD

PLS NOTE: THIS PROBLEM WAS ANSWERED BY ARIENS.

POST # 19 explains the upgrade.  

 IT IS A RESOLVED  ISSUE 

I purchased an 8524LE for a price I had to jump at due to an end of season left over last year.   Shortly after, I started hearing horror stories on the gear drives for this particular unit.  I am sure a lot of you are familiar to it.  Ariens advertised  three categories of two stage SB.  Compact, Deluxe, Professional.  What they don't tell you is that this model has the drive unit of the compacts. The one prefixed with "932" rather than "924."   The other two Deluxe models and the Pro models all have the "924."  I feel this is misleading advertising on their part.  I contacted Ariens with my serial number, and all they said was my unit has the reduction unit in it.  I noticed someone in here telling a new owner of this years 8526 model on getting the R3 upgrade.  So maybe that is what I have or maybe not. 

What is this reduction thing.  I can't expect that they altered my gear drive to the same configuration as the heavy-duty one.  Mainly,  because the case appears to be much weaker and a little smaller.

So this year I got to use the machine.  It is quite capable of blowing some serious snow.  The problem is I have to use real high gear selections to do it.  This things ground speed is that of a turtle.  Everything is adjusted correctly, no slippage, proper RPM,  Trust me.  If you want I can get you electronic rpm measurement the next time I get it out of the shed.  I was giving my 15 yr old some lesions/practice etc. and cautioned him on making sure that he was in say forward gear when he starts out with his back against the wall, as the machine is quite capable of pinning him.  He engaged it in reverse and I challenged him to stop the machine from pushing him back on dry pavement.  He got the message that it would pin his belly-button to his spine then plow him right through a old heavy plywood faced garage door. 

He and I just did a neighbors 250 foot double wide with three snowfalls on it.  A 3 week old 4 inch, a two week old 3 inch and a fresh 8 inch.  Naturally the older snow was tough and packed so we were doing probably a good 10 inches plus of some tough underlying snow and some top powder.  Didn't matter, all of it went 30 plus feet in the air for a distance of no less than 40 feet.  The problem is we were doing it in 4th gear.  I don't think that is normal for an 8.5 hp.  When we transported it up there we had to use 6th gear with full throttle or it would have taken forever. First gear and 1st reverse are so slow they are useless.  So naturally I am thinking that what the modification may have been was at least in part to gear it down to take the stress off the inferior drive componets and weaker smaller transmission housing.  Which makes no sense as this machine is big and heavy, and has a large snow box that needs fed to operate properly, so the operator has to compensate by speeding up.  It weighs 240 lbs, that coupled with you say doing an EOD of wet thick heavy slush, filling the whole snow box and spilling a lot of it out on top of the box, can add 100 to 150 pounds to it's weight.  I feel like I am running a 1959 Caddy with a 1962 Rambler slushbox tranny that is gonna blow at any time.

When I contacted Ariens on this they were tight lipped, kinda like you got the reduction unit, buy see you later. 

So I was hoping to get some more information in here before I write a review on this machine. 

I know their will be mentions of advising to call Ariens again etc.  But trust me, they really don't seem to want to talk about it.  What can help prove that out, is they read and post in this forum.  They will read this, and they are quite capable of giving an explanation in here. However that remains to be seen. 

 

Regards. And any info you know of will be appreciated

It does appear that the model you have is built cheaper than the other models.  I really sounds like and adjustment.  You don't need the drive upgrade. 

Look in your manual for the procedure to adjust your shift linkage. It sounds like your machine is working well as far as the auger is concerned but needs a linkage adjustment. My friend has that exact unit bought last year and the shift linkage when properly adjusted will give you what you are looking for.

Marc

This topic is getting into two threads. I will try and stay here . 

Thx for the info Marshal.  However the answer of what is the R3 upgrade is not in his info... What I got is Ariens  partially fixed some of the problem with a better friction disc, and others by An R3 upgrade.  Which he did not say what it is.  He said it increases wheel torque,  so can reducing the gear ratio.  Torque is actually truely defined as stopping power. (How many foot pounds of counter resistance it takes to stop(same as reducing it's speed) a shaft., crankshaft or in this case axil shaft.)  So one has to be carefull here as the shaft rpm ratio compared to the engine rpm can be altered by gear changes.  So you can get more torque on an "AXIL" by lowering it's gear ratio.        Now you know where I am sort of going here.  Did the manufacturer gear down the machine so they could say the retrofit increased the wheel torque.  Which it would.  However it does not solve the original problem.  Because the operator has to speed the machine up to fill the hughe auger box, for efficient throwing.   That would be just a spin.  The other thing is he said the 8524 le was compared to the pro models.  No it wasn't, and that is a main point.  It was in the deluxe category, not compared to the pro models at all. However it was the only one in the Deluxe category that did not have the heavy duty drive system.  Ariens disguised this by calling them all Disc-o-matics.  Which they are, but there are two grades. Light duty and heavy duty. In this case they coupled a heavy duty machine with a light duty Tranny.  There are three major parts to these machines.  The engine, the traction/gear drive system, and the front snowbox (auger, box and impeller).  The big problem is the one in the middle that holds it all together is the one they weakened.  Talk about the weak link in the chain.  Actually it is probably the most important as it is in the middle of the system and is also the easiest to disguise to potential buyers.  example, you say 8hp or 10 hp on the engine, you can't disguise that. you say 24 in snow box 15 in auger 12 in impeller, you can't disguise that.  However you don't mention the tranny and put all three in a deluxe category with a list of their different options and say they all have a Disc-o-matic tranny, now I call that deception, and no one can reasonably tell.  There were statements of the owners needs as to how well  the owner wants to patch up the problem.  This is not something that is suppose to be decided upon after you purchase the machine. Would anyone even buy this machine if they knew this in the first place. The configuration they made for this machine, as far as my opinion, matches no ones needs.  It is a hidden hybrid.  Why didn't they advertise it as the compact machine that looks like a Deluxe machine but is not on the same foundation as the other two Deluxe machines, and cannot do the job it is suppose to and will probably not last as long.

Summary I am very sure my machine is in adjustment. will make extra sure in a couple of days.  There is no slippage, the shifter adjustment seems to be centered, It just moves at a snails pace. I am talking ground speed.  I will also measure the distance it travels in a fixed amount of time, for each speed with an electronic tac attached in case I get a governor varience on full throttle, which I will not as the engine is plenty powerful to drive in all the gears with out governor assist, on dry pave with no load.  And why wouldn't it be cause it moves at a snails pace.  Then maybe we can get a volunteer to do one of the deluxe models or pro models with the heavy duty trans etc.  (just a quick gound speed comparison) Or someone can offer some average speeds of machines if they have some testing results from like a consumer report or something.

Keep in mind my ground speed problem could be completely dispelled by an Ariens engineer saying that they did not slow down any of the gear ratio's in any gear on the "R3 upgrade" from the original version.

Then we can get on to the main question in this thread, "What is the R3 upgrade"?

and what serial numbers have them.  I can also only guess that finding parts for this machine down the road will be interesting, as there seems to be different levels of fixes.

Thanks folks

Ben07  from Pgh PA

Sorry I don't have anything to offer, but do all the 2004 deluxe models now have the better transmission (like the 8526LE).  I was under the impression they did, but I noticed in a response to my other thread someone mentioning to get it....

-Dave

That depends on the definition of "the better Transmission" which now seems to have different levels.  If I were Ariens, I think I would contact everyone that does not have the latest and greatest.  I like you did not need to buy this problem.  There are copies of an Ariens Eng. in here sort of skirting the issue of what the retro's accomplished, however he stayed away as to how it was mechanically done.  If i were Ariens, I would get in here and answer it.  That is if i was not hiding anything.  If they don't then it might be proofe positive that their band-aids are useless, or do not actually solve the problem and that the owner may have to give up some of the expected operating capabilities and longer term reliability of the machine, not to mention value. If anyone wants to buy mine, let me know.  So The ball is in their court.  If there is no answer than the answer is obvious.

Ben07 wrote: Respectfully, that's not necessarily true. They may feel that they have no need to have to prove anything to you or detail their engineering to you, for numerous reasons. Add to that the fact that you're trying to put them in a corner and it would surprise me if they gave you the time of day.

That's my 2 cents

Ben07-
   I have an 824 that has gotton the r3 drive upgrade, and I have seen the parts.  I'll try to detail them the best I can.  At some point, i'm sure Paul K will post and correct as needed:
    All parts listed are new/changed:
       pulley
       chain & hardware
       drive chain gears for axles
       belt
       bottom cover
       Assorted washers, bushings, etc
       Friction disc

Essentially, anything you see in the tranny case that turns or transfers motion gets replaced.  Now, i can't from memory detail what gets bigger or smaller(Paul will have to do that)  But I can tell you that my ground speed seems to have remain unchaged(the dealer that did the job said it would decrease a bit-if it has i can't tell), but the machine has much more oopmh when pushing through stuff, and much more pull if you try to fight it.  I actually think there are units of your year that qualify for the R3, you may want to post your serial # and see(again Paul will know if he sees this thread)  I actually think the ground speed of the machines is good, the way I blow my drive.  I guess if you're always looking to hit the governer or get the max throw, yeah, you're gonna hang in the higher gears and even at that if there is less than 6" of snow you still won't get it..  If you ask real nice , i suppose i could gps my unit's speed so we can have official numbers(what the h*ll, my neighbors already think i'm nuts), but I don't have an inductive tach to attach to tell you what rpm my engine turns at.  2 weeks ago when we got crushed here in WNY(i was moving 1.5feet - 3.5feet), i found that second was the fastest gear i could use without really digging into the gov and stressing the engine, so I can say there's a use for those slow gears, you might not have seen it yet.  For the record my R1 is a bit slower than F1 and R2 is a bit slower than F2, going by feel.  HTH

Terrapin Thx for the post. Excellent post. that is what i am looking for, someone that knows their stuff.  and there are a lot of you out there, I just need someone in here familiar with this problem.  And yes you must have understood. I have no slippage.  However you also recognized the fact that I may not have the complete upgrade and that i may have been partially blown off when i first inquired about it.  At least you also didn't accuse me of trying to back Ariens in a corner.  If there is a corner than they created it not me.  Also I didn't want to personally Pick on the engineer who tries to help out sometimes.  I also know that he does have to be conscious of product liability.  However if my questions don't get answered I think it is reasonable to make negative assumptions.  And they are not Rocket science questions.  thx I will get back to you on the ground speed thingy next day or two.  reason being that I was so dissapointed in the machine that I put it back in a hard to get at shed and put my old faithfull TORO in front of it as I got a lot of work to do this week in the garage etc, and I figured if I left it in there being I was having difficulties with it, all would have to happen is for it to get in the way and I may want to take a sledge to it.  Just kidding of course. 

Also I wrote my next comment out before I read your post.  So i am going to post it anyway, so don't think I am changing anything I said here in case it comes across that way

Thx ben07 

Marshall I respectfully understand what you said.  However I am asking them a question.  A question for which they won't seem to answer.  However they take action on the issue, they upgrade and modify etc.  You know as well as any reasonable person that they would not be doing that if there was not a problem in the first place.   I don't think I am the one that backed them into a corner.  If they are in a corner, then it very well may be a corner that they put them themselves in, and yes it can be intensified by them not answering questions on it.  .  

"Devulge their engineering."  My question is not how they do their engineering. Doesn't manufacturing companies like auto manufacturers offer Parts and Repair manuals to the general public.   So does this company, however there is no mention of the retrofit etc in their parts radar.  So how do you buy parts for it in the future and know you got the correct part etc.  

Also I know that you are not saying that if someone buys one of their machines that end up having proven problems, and you inquire about it, that they do not have to give you the time of day.  Because if that were the case then less people would be willing to buy  their products.  

Keep in mind this all started with two simple questions. What is the R3 upgrade.  Real simple here.  I am not asking for only the results.  The other part is did they gear the machine down to accomplish this, thus causing overall loss of ground speed.  

One of my objectives here was I saw that the forum was asking for reviews.  This is the first winter on my new machine.  I have a lot of negative things to say about it.  So I figured i would research it more before I post a review so as to avoid over bashing  the manufacturer.  As sometimes happens, you don't get credit for the positive things.  Now you are mentioning that I am trying to back them in a corner and I don't deserve the time of day.  Maybe that is not your intent, however it clearly stated that to be your opinion. (to quote you "it would surprise you if they gave me the time of day") I am glad you don't work for Ariens, you don't, do you? (Just kidding here)   I am entitled to my opinion also.  I asked questions first.  Didn't get and still don't have the answers.  So I am entitled to my opinion, that being if someone didn't have something to hide then they would be more open to answer the questions. 

If anyone else has an opinion then pls post.  If there are others out there who would like to know what the R3upgrade is then pls feel free to say so in a post