Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Greetings:

I'd like some help in ironing out specifics on snowblowers and the components that make them up (and make up their engines). I have collected some data from various places, but it seems that the manufacturers are VERY against disclosing any of the nitty-gritty details about the make-up of the snowblowers (which seems silly). I'd like to limit the thread to high quality construct (meaning at or near comercial grade) 24" or 28" 2010 snowblowers to try to keep things moving forward if possible. I'll start by listed information I've gathered on the two models I am looking at most currently. If you have any confirmed factual information, please post it; but I'd like to try to stay away from unconfirmed opinions or personal experience arguments if possible.

Ariens Platinum 24 (921017)
[Engine: Briggs & Stratton 1150]
- Moderate Fuel Efficiency *F
- Torque: 11.5 ft-lbs (SAE J1940) *WARNING: Class action lawsuit against B&S (and others including Honda) for creating a false standard J1940 to conceal horsepower fraud, so this number has no real-world value. Can anyone get a real number for this please, perhaps in SAE 1349 standard? Honda has corrected their HP/Torque ratings on their website, but B&S hasn't yet.  *D, *E
- Type: OHV *D
- Crankshaft: Ball Bearing  *Snowmann, *slinger

[Gearbox: SX Aluminum]
- Steel Worm Gear *G
- Bronze sleeve bearing *G (for sleeve), *Snowmann (for material)

[Movement: Drive Disc]
- Automatic Traction Control / Quick Turn *C
- Bronze Sleeve Bearing *G

[Auger]
- Serated *C
- Nylon Sleeve Bearing *G
- 14" *C

[Impeller]
- 14" *C

[Accessories]
- Light *C
- 120V Start *C
- Hand Warmer *C

[MSR]
- $1599 *C

Honda (HS724WA)
[Engine: GX200]
- Superior Fuel Efficiency *F
- Torque: 9.1 ft-lbs @ 2,500 rpm (SAE J1349 International Standard) *B
- Type: OHV *B
- Counter-Vibration *B
- Noise Reduction *B
- Crankshaft: Ball Bearing *A

[Gearbox]
- Steel Helical Gears *A
- Steel Ball Bearing *A

[Movement: Hydrostatic]
- Infinitely Variable *A
- Fixed 2wd *A

[Auger]
- Serated *A
- 14" *trouts2

[Impeller]
- 12" *trouts2

[MSR]
- $2299 *A

Notes
- SAE J1349 assumes 15% loss of power to internal friction; in reality, this is just an average and varies per engine (so less internal friction would mean the actual HP is higher) *this can be validated at any site that defines the SAE 1349 standard

Sources
- A : Honda Snowblower Specifications (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/snowblowers/content.aspx?asset=sb_whychoose) (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2SB&modelname=HS724WA&modelid=HS724WA)
- B: Honda Engine Specifications (http://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gx200)
- C: Ariens Specifications (http://www.ariens.com/products_snow/s_deluxe_platinum_group/s_deluxe_platinum_24/Pages/default.aspx)
- D: Briggs & Stratton Specifications (http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/other-engines/detail.aspx?series=1150+Series&id=%7BB8CACFAE-E522-4511-88F6-9DA80E1C1ADC%7D)
- E: Class-Action Engine HP Fraud Lawsuit (http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/Lawnmower_Horsepower_Fraud) *there are many other references, just google
- F: Personally inferred from many (>20) personal forum posts by different owners
- G: Ariens Parts Catalog (http://partsradar.arinet.com/scripts/EmpartISAPI.dll?MF&app=ariens&lang=EN&TF=Empartweb&loginID=ariensc&loginpwd=consumer)

*I can't seem to find the link to the online Honda parts catalog again (it was hard to find and I didn't bookmark it). If anyone finds it, please post the URL

jrtrebor wrote:
Man, I thought it was simple until I read this:

"Clearing surface is unimportant: it is possible/likely that I will someday move and bring my quality snow-blower with me. The goal is to not buy 'junk' that will need fixing and replacing parts every 3-5 years: once upon a time things were made to last, that is no longer the case and you must take care to investigate how things are built nowadays to obtain the same quality of prduct."

Any sales person here care to share how you would approach this customer?

aa335 wrote:
The only tact you can take with a customer/person like this, is to explain why your product is better. Point by point identify each of those major and critical components that make your product stand out and explain why this is the case, i.e. why the construction is important, ergonomics, quality of building materials, etc... This education/cost justification is usually to no avail as people who tend to overthink decisions such as this just can't justify the higher end purchase because it is not pefect or engineered to the Nth degree (in their mind). Doing your homework is fine and is a prudent decision but going overboard nitpicking every nut and bolt is another story. I usually politely remind them that you get what you pay for and walk away. There's no sense wasting your time...

For anyone else who has been reading this thread, after doing some more research on my own (I've put in well over 150 hours of research now), I decided to go with either the Honda hs724wa or hs928was depending on whether or not the dealer thinks the electric start is necessary (the hs724 has much better fuel economy if you don't need the extra horsepower). I made this decision from further researching of the building quality of the machine. It looks like had I decided to purchase a snowblower a few years back, I'd have had a better selection, but as it is now the majority of blowers are more or less built similar for each of their respective 'lines' or 'series' except for Yamaha (which aren't available in the US) and Honda (Husqvarna may be as well from what I found, but I couldn't find enough details on the Husqvarnas to be conclusive). There are a number of improvements that other brands have put into play on newer models (which are very convenient), but the overall workmanship of their units has degraded over the past several years (mostly due to the companies being bought out I think). These two (three) seem to be built as sturdy as the older generations of Ariens, Toro, etc.

I'm sorry this didn't turn out as I had wanted to provide other people looking for information about the different brands with what they needed to make their decisions, but regardless of which brand you decide to go with, keep in mind of one major thing: the manufacturers of today make tons of different models for a reason: they skimp on quality of the lower-line products in order to lower production cost and provide a 'budget' machine, but be aware that you are far more likely to have to do repairs, buy replacement parts, and replace the machine much more often on their lesser series. With Honda, they only offer their top-of-line (and offer the full 3 year warranty for comercial use unlike the other brands); for Ariens, I personally would not purchase their units below the Platinum line. I don't have enough information on the other brands to be able to determine which series start their higher quality builds.

Congrats on deciding on the HS724, it is IMO, one of the finest built 24" snowblower today, although not the strongest or the gutsiest.  But I'm sure that's not your primary concern.  Your choice is the best choice for yourself, simple, everybody has their angle.  Most manufacturers typically do not make high end 24", limited customer base.  IMO, that is only met by Honda, Yamaha, and Simplicity.

If you value maneuverability, compactness, and build quality, the 724 fills these requirement exactly.  It is a beautiful machine, kind like Wall-e with a bucket and handles.  :)  You can see attention to details like cable management, clean welds, straightforward and convenient choke/throttle, engine shutoff placement, and nice rubber coated handle levers, with just the right amount of cable tension and minimal slack.  Try playing around with John Deere high-end 1330SE handles and levers for comparison and make up your own conclusion.

In reply to your comment about manufacturers skimping on quality and offering budget models, I wouldn't place the burden of responsibility solely on manufacturers and creative sales force.  Supply meets demand.  Consumers are buying lower priced models expecting it to be feature rich and you will see more of it.  You can be active and vote for people in office that represents your goals and needs, or you can just sit back and complain.  I digress, but hope you get the idea.

Sorry if this thread doesn't go in the direction you wanted it to.  Your questions are loaded and people here just don't have the answers that you expect.  People here offer their opinions and experiences, not as an engineer, but as a consumer/user/modders, ect...
The best you can do is take the normal distribution curve as common and useful opinions/fact and disregard the two extreme tail ends, for statistical sake.

Be sure to post pictures of your new toy.  This forum is in shortage of new shiny Honda snowblowers. :)

aa335 wrote:

I don't own a camera (never had need for photos), so I won't be able to do that. The dealer said the most expensive part of the Hondas compared to other brands is the shipping to get them; they have to order them in bulk or have to pay a ridiculous amount on shipping (compared to the Ariens and Deeres they also sell). He is going to see if he can get mine ordered alongside a shipment of generators to see if he can cut down the shipping costs that he would have to pass on to me.

As of 2004, Simplicity is no longer Simplicity. John Deere this year are no longer green-painted Ariens, they are green-painted Murray, which are Briggs, just like the newer Simplicity.

How much would that shipping cost be if he pass it on to you?  Smells like fish to me.

He says he can get the hs724wa to me for 1800 normally, but if he can get the individual shipping off, he can get it down to 1600.

Those seem like very FAIR prices.
Maybe Honda gurus can advise how much play MSRP.% during the offseason.

3 of 3 dealers I called wanted retail. One was $100 off MSRP. YMMV.

Electrocutor wrote:
$1800 is a GOOD deal, never heard of $1600 for a new HS724WA.  What area are you in?  I'd close on the deal before he figures out the mistake. 

These would normally be $2000 around here, and if you haven't spoken for them already, they're sold out by mid November.  Track model sells really fast.  Get it now or put in your order for next year.  When the snow hits the ground, you'd be lucky to find any new ones at MSRP in stock.  Make no mistake, Honda do not over produce to let excess inventory sit around.  My nearest dealer already sold every allocation for 2010 year in the Spring.

Electrocutor wrote:

If you work at $20/hr for 150 hours you could pay someone to clear the snow for you for the next 5 years. You'd be way ahead. Or buy a big box cheapo and put 50 hours into maintenance - you'll be 100 hours and hundreds of dollars ahead.