Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Greetings:

I'd like some help in ironing out specifics on snowblowers and the components that make them up (and make up their engines). I have collected some data from various places, but it seems that the manufacturers are VERY against disclosing any of the nitty-gritty details about the make-up of the snowblowers (which seems silly). I'd like to limit the thread to high quality construct (meaning at or near comercial grade) 24" or 28" 2010 snowblowers to try to keep things moving forward if possible. I'll start by listed information I've gathered on the two models I am looking at most currently. If you have any confirmed factual information, please post it; but I'd like to try to stay away from unconfirmed opinions or personal experience arguments if possible.

Ariens Platinum 24 (921017)
[Engine: Briggs & Stratton 1150]
- Moderate Fuel Efficiency *F
- Torque: 11.5 ft-lbs (SAE J1940) *WARNING: Class action lawsuit against B&S (and others including Honda) for creating a false standard J1940 to conceal horsepower fraud, so this number has no real-world value. Can anyone get a real number for this please, perhaps in SAE 1349 standard? Honda has corrected their HP/Torque ratings on their website, but B&S hasn't yet.  *D, *E
- Type: OHV *D
- Crankshaft: Ball Bearing  *Snowmann, *slinger

[Gearbox: SX Aluminum]
- Steel Worm Gear *G
- Bronze sleeve bearing *G (for sleeve), *Snowmann (for material)

[Movement: Drive Disc]
- Automatic Traction Control / Quick Turn *C
- Bronze Sleeve Bearing *G

[Auger]
- Serated *C
- Nylon Sleeve Bearing *G
- 14" *C

[Impeller]
- 14" *C

[Accessories]
- Light *C
- 120V Start *C
- Hand Warmer *C

[MSR]
- $1599 *C

Honda (HS724WA)
[Engine: GX200]
- Superior Fuel Efficiency *F
- Torque: 9.1 ft-lbs @ 2,500 rpm (SAE J1349 International Standard) *B
- Type: OHV *B
- Counter-Vibration *B
- Noise Reduction *B
- Crankshaft: Ball Bearing *A

[Gearbox]
- Steel Helical Gears *A
- Steel Ball Bearing *A

[Movement: Hydrostatic]
- Infinitely Variable *A
- Fixed 2wd *A

[Auger]
- Serated *A
- 14" *trouts2

[Impeller]
- 12" *trouts2

[MSR]
- $2299 *A

Notes
- SAE J1349 assumes 15% loss of power to internal friction; in reality, this is just an average and varies per engine (so less internal friction would mean the actual HP is higher) *this can be validated at any site that defines the SAE 1349 standard

Sources
- A : Honda Snowblower Specifications (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/snowblowers/content.aspx?asset=sb_whychoose) (http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2SB&modelname=HS724WA&modelid=HS724WA)
- B: Honda Engine Specifications (http://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gx200)
- C: Ariens Specifications (http://www.ariens.com/products_snow/s_deluxe_platinum_group/s_deluxe_platinum_24/Pages/default.aspx)
- D: Briggs & Stratton Specifications (http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engines/other-engines/detail.aspx?series=1150+Series&id=%7BB8CACFAE-E522-4511-88F6-9DA80E1C1ADC%7D)
- E: Class-Action Engine HP Fraud Lawsuit (http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/Lawnmower_Horsepower_Fraud) *there are many other references, just google
- F: Personally inferred from many (>20) personal forum posts by different owners
- G: Ariens Parts Catalog (http://partsradar.arinet.com/scripts/EmpartISAPI.dll?MF&app=ariens&lang=EN&TF=Empartweb&loginID=ariensc&loginpwd=consumer)

*I can't seem to find the link to the online Honda parts catalog again (it was hard to find and I didn't bookmark it). If anyone finds it, please post the URL

Can you define superior and moderate fuel efficiency? What is your final objective ? What is your definition of confirmed factual information and unconfirmed opinions?

Also on your list, indicate for each item your source and date of certification or date of data collected and by whom

Electrocutor wrote:

Is your name really David? Are you from NJ?

Do you have the budget and able to pay for independent third party validation and certification? Name your requirements and specific SAE, ASME standards and applicable UL listings or recognition

aa335 wrote:

I was thinking the very same thing...

Electrocutor wrote:

This is an internet forum, your holistic expectation may have to be rearranged and aligned with reality. Contributions to this forum are from people, not manufacturers (except one poster), suppliers, and governing bodies. So take that with a grain of salt.

FrankMA wrote:
I hope there's a purpose to picking these two machines for comparison other than just kicking specs around for discussions and debate, like actually snowblowing needs and requirements.

It seems you misunderstood somewhat. I personally have no qualification and aside from spec sheets on components, I do not have any first-hand knowledge. Most of what I posted is from spec sheets, the rest is from reading posts from people (like snowmann) who have actually seen the components. Lets be realistic here: As I mentioned, the snowblower manufacturers for whatever reason are completely against giving out the nitty-gritty information on their components, but I believe such information is crucial to determining the quality of construct and long-term reliability of teh machine.

Yes, my name is David. No, I do not live in NJ (the profile settings must have just defaulted to that?).

I determined 'superior' and 'moderate' fuel economy from the hundreds (or maybe thousands at this point) of forum postings from people who have used various snowblowers and have made note of how long it lasts per tank and how large the tank is. This is by no means an exact number because I believe the only way you could get such a number is through careful measurement instruments and owning all of them (which just won't happen).

My final objective is to have the data I need (and provide it to others who want to know) on which models have what quality of construct and components. We live in a day and age where almost every manufacturer tries to hide production-cost-saving materials within good or strong-looking containers and provides no details. The group here seems to have a number of people that have actually torn into these and know first-hand what they are inside.

I am defining confirmed as having more than 1 reliable source stating the information (you're not going to find this kind of stuff in the product manual unfortunately). Opinions I want to avoid is "mine is better", "X is better than Y", and senseless back-and-forth bickering that clutters up a lot of the posts around here. That said, there are a few rare instances where one components design may be better in every way to another: if such a case is so, then I'd want to have some reliable-source web links that explain why that is so.

I'll go ahead and mark down where I got the information shortly, which I would deem a reliable source. It's also possible that I got some of it wrong and need to be corrected: that is part of why I want help with this information to begin with.

I am not going to pay for someone to find out this information, I thought that was point of this forum; that many people who repair, design, build, or have worked with these machines are able to post about their first-hand knowledge of them in order to help others? If I am mistaken, and this forum requires monetary compensation for information then I apologize for bothering you all with the post.

Electrocutor wrote:

Why bother joining or perusing OPE sites like this if you're not prepared to listen to the advice of people who have owned, operated and maintained equipment like this in real world conditions. What better way to objectively collate the various experiences and opinions, sort it out and then draw your own conclusion based on these experiences. Doing your homework is one thing, over analyzing your choices is a whole different story. Just my subjective opinion...

I agree that opinions of real-world use is very important, but there are tons of other posts about that. What I failed to find no matter where I looked was a quantitative comparison and detailed analytical comparison of different like-machines components and construction practices. One thing that has become abundantly clear is that for every component that has been improved in the last 30 years, 3 components are now made less durable or from cheaper quality and build materials/design than they used to be. The problem is that no one knows this kind of info except the engineers that designed it (who aren't allowed to reveal that info) and people who have dug into the workings.

I guess I was hoping for more actual information from people and less having to defend myself for asking how well something is built. I just assumed that everyone would have thought knowing the construction quality of a machine was just as important as knowing how well the users like it.

I want to make a quick note about Manufacturers, though given this information, it is still important to know that different product lines and models will be constructed differently. If someone who knows wouldn't mind confirming these, I'd appreciate it.

MTD Builds:
- MTD
- Toro
- Troy Built
- Yard Man
- Yard Machines
- Cub Cadet

Briggs & Stratton Builds:
- Simplicity
- Snapper
- Murray
- John Deere

Ariens Builds:
- Ariens

Honda Builds:
- Honda

Husqvarna Builds:
- Husqvarna
- Craftsman
- Poulan

Sorry to say but you're sounding awfully identical to DavidNJ in this forum, as well as the other forum.  I'm not saying that you are, but if it quacks like a duck....

Good luck in your quest though.  We've gone through this in October with DavidNJ with over 400 posts.  Feel free explore and ask away. 

This sounds like a ponderous quest, not it can't be done, but maybe it should start with a simpler analysis of shovels. 

Electrocutor wrote:
If you ever work in a company that manufacture tangible products, you would understand why.  TMI does more harm than good.  Do you think a salesman will reveal what his margins are?  I wouldnt if I want to stay in business.

Yes the profile default to IP.

aa335 wrote:

Ding, ding, ding, Give that man a prize! You have nailed it on the mark.

Hopefully he won't get too abusive this time....

Most people looking for a snowblower in a first time post do not ask all about analytical details with no qualifications. They say hey I need a snowblower that will do my "insert driveway needs here" and where should I start or I heard "insert brand here" is really good. How does it compare to this "other" brand? This guy needs to go to a forum for manufacturers and see if he can get in their forums. This is an opinion site mostly. Most of those opinions are based on a lot of experience tho and that does mean something in the real world. Bench racing snowblowers doesn't blow snow, just hot air.

So... no one will help or knows any specifics about the internals workings of the Ariens, Honda, MTD, B&S, or Husqvarna higher-end 24/28 inch models? Having to take a salesman's word on things, especially when they have already provided one or two completely false statements bothers me. I was hoping to compile the first-hand knowledge about these snowblowers from people who know how they work and make an informed decision on that. I'm just a consumer, not a mechanic; and I only partially understand the information. For example, I know that whether you use sleeve or ball bearings matters, but the life-time of each depends on the application and construction: thus, sleeve bearings may be a more efficient and longer-lasting design decision given a certain design for one part, but ball bearings may be more efficient and longer-lasting for another part.

From all users opinions and reports of maintnance that I've read thus far, the Hondas and Ariens' Platinum line are in direct competition, with the Honda having a name premium, quieter operation, and hydro drive, and the Ariens having cheaper replacement parts, more accessories, and quick-turn/auto-traction. That said, a couple of the parts on the Honda seem to be universally viewed as superior (f.e. the Helical gearbox vs Worm). I'm torn between the two; and I don't have enough information about the other brands to do comparisons with their equivilent models.

Please help?

Ok.  Let's start with how much are you willing to spend, your driveway info, who's using it.  This is more relevant than who makes what.  You do want to blow snow and put it somewhere, do you?

FYI, it is rarely for people to cross shop between Ariens and Honda, just like Ford Mustang and Porsche 911.  Different camps. 

User is a ~175lb male. I'm concious about over-using machines and will not be over-agressive.

Clearing surface is unimportant: it is possible/likely that I will someday move and bring my quality snow-blower with me. The goal is to not buy 'junk' that will need fixing and replacing parts every 3-5 years: once upon a time things were made to last, that is no longer the case and you must take care to investigate how things are built nowadays to obtain the same quality of prduct.

Durability (low rate of part replacement), efficiency, and longevity are primary concerns; ease of use is secondary; price is tertiary.

I'm aware of the Honda vs Ariens loyalty camps, but products change over time and people need to be aware of what those changes are and whether they further improve the machine, or further reduce production cost and hurt the machine (this is also why everyone makes so many blasted models); that's why the Kowasaki Toro's of the past were so popular and the newer ones (that I've seen) can't hold a candle to them. If I had to choose at the current moment, I would be in the Honda camp, but I also know that Honda does add some price tag simply for the name.

To give an example: if the Ariens compact 24" had all the same quality of components as the Honda, then it would be silly to pay more than double the price just for the Honda name and Hydrostat transmission. This is, however, not the case and also a reason why Ariens makes the Deluxe, Platinum, and Professional lines.

(Now if the companies would get together and put a Honda/Yamaha engine, a differential-equipped Hydrostatic transmission, Ariens larger impeller/auger sizes, and Ariens accessories on one machine there would be a whole lot less bickering on this forum and everyone who didn't go straight for a budget blower would be happy; but some dreams simply will never come true)

Electrocutor wrote:
Electrocutor: You have an identical twin brother - his name is DavidNJ. Sidenote, is anyone else hearing the theme music from the Twilight Zone right now?....

IIRC no Huskys have been sold in US by Sears since 08-09 model year unless it was a leftover store model.  They are still sold in Canada though.  I asked Snowblowerdirect why they didn't sell Husky Crown models.  Their response was --->  "We are not allowed to carry those because they are not allowed to be displayed online."

Electrocutor wrote:

FrankMA wrote:

Quack quack

Electrocutor wrote:

Too much ramblings, stick to shovels and leaf blowers

omg my friggin head hurts lol,,,how did this guy ever buy a house or anything??cape vs colonial vs  split level ranch??vinyl siding vs brick etc etc..Heres some advice pick from ariens pro or simplicity pro or honda or toro.They all have their pros and cons and go clean some snow and have fun.

Come on guys.  We know this is not David from NJ.  He would have started a separate topic for each subfunction check.

Shryp wrote:

actually it most likely is DavidNJ as he's asking the same type of questions. They are also questions that do not really need answering. What I care about is how well the snowblower is going to throw snow. How far and how reliable the machine is, is most important. If I am a fighter pilot I only fly the damn plane I don't have to repair it. That's the mechanics job.

My Toro walks right into the nasty stuff and throws it just as nice as can be. It's been reliable and I have no idea how to take it apart and fix it even if I had the time and interest to do so.

I had a Honda and that was good too. Not twice the price good but screwed together really well. Ariens is probably good for people who can turn it unlike my wife and she is working out too. here is a Vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9aImupcUPA

Maybe by the time she is done she can pick up the snowblower FOR Me!

I think the choice is pretty simple.  If you have the money to spend, buy a Honda.  If not buy an Ariens.

"Durability (low rate of part replacement), efficiency, and longevity are primary concerns"
Those three relate directly to factors you should be considering.  How big an area will be clearing per use.  What type of snow do usually get, wet, dry?  How much snow do you get in a season.  On average how many inches per event.  How quickly do you want to remove the snow each time.
A 10hp will clear more snow than a 5hp in the same amount of time.  The Ariens and the Honda are both good machine.  But your specific needs and your average annual snow fall are bigger factors in making your choice than all of the blower specs.

 I live in Mi. and sometimes have to deal with drifts 30" deep. I wouldn't have anything smaller than 10Hp.  You can wear out even a good machine.  If you continually use it for all it's worth time and time again.

Sounds like DavidNJ. He got a good flogging from the other forums and decided to cool his jets and come over here to stir up trouble, again! This time under a new alias.

It's obvious he has no intention of buying anything to actually blow snow. Same clown, different circus. It's almost winter and he's asking about lawn mowers in the other forum.

Thank you, snowmachine, for that bit of information; I didn't know that Husqvarna and its child brands were not being sold in the US this year. Thus far, you were the only helpful poster.

Electrocutor wrote:

I should clarify. Huskys are being sold in US but Sears isn't selling any rebranded models as Craftsmans in the US.

Electrocutor wrote:

Electrocutor wrote:

Hmm...direct competition between Honda and Ariens?  Each one has quite different business model and customer base.  Care to elaborate on why you think they are in direct competition?

I don't know what you mean when you said helical gearbox versus worm.   Why so torn?

What is your overall goal?  To make an informed decision for your own purchase of a "snowblower" or to provide "harvested" information to others to make an informed decision?  I think people are quite capable of harvesting information on their own to make informed decision on a multitudes of models, why limit themselves with just two of the Ariens and Honda models you selected?

Shryp wrote:
Give it some time.  It's only day one.  :)

I think we should start a BINGO game.   Make your own subfunctions on a sheet of paper, like hydrostatic transmission, differential, auger diameter, impeller diameter, orange bucket, red bucket, green bucket , black bucket.....  But don't use these, make up our own and be creative.  First one to get all in a row wins.  :)

jrtrebor wrote:
Man, I thought it was simple until I read this:

"Clearing surface is unimportant: it is possible/likely that I will someday move and bring my quality snow-blower with me. The goal is to not buy 'junk' that will need fixing and replacing parts every 3-5 years: once upon a time things were made to last, that is no longer the case and you must take care to investigate how things are built nowadays to obtain the same quality of prduct."

Any sales person here care to share how you would approach this customer?

aa335 wrote:
The only tact you can take with a customer/person like this, is to explain why your product is better. Point by point identify each of those major and critical components that make your product stand out and explain why this is the case, i.e. why the construction is important, ergonomics, quality of building materials, etc... This education/cost justification is usually to no avail as people who tend to overthink decisions such as this just can't justify the higher end purchase because it is not pefect or engineered to the Nth degree (in their mind). Doing your homework is fine and is a prudent decision but going overboard nitpicking every nut and bolt is another story. I usually politely remind them that you get what you pay for and walk away. There's no sense wasting your time...

For anyone else who has been reading this thread, after doing some more research on my own (I've put in well over 150 hours of research now), I decided to go with either the Honda hs724wa or hs928was depending on whether or not the dealer thinks the electric start is necessary (the hs724 has much better fuel economy if you don't need the extra horsepower). I made this decision from further researching of the building quality of the machine. It looks like had I decided to purchase a snowblower a few years back, I'd have had a better selection, but as it is now the majority of blowers are more or less built similar for each of their respective 'lines' or 'series' except for Yamaha (which aren't available in the US) and Honda (Husqvarna may be as well from what I found, but I couldn't find enough details on the Husqvarnas to be conclusive). There are a number of improvements that other brands have put into play on newer models (which are very convenient), but the overall workmanship of their units has degraded over the past several years (mostly due to the companies being bought out I think). These two (three) seem to be built as sturdy as the older generations of Ariens, Toro, etc.

I'm sorry this didn't turn out as I had wanted to provide other people looking for information about the different brands with what they needed to make their decisions, but regardless of which brand you decide to go with, keep in mind of one major thing: the manufacturers of today make tons of different models for a reason: they skimp on quality of the lower-line products in order to lower production cost and provide a 'budget' machine, but be aware that you are far more likely to have to do repairs, buy replacement parts, and replace the machine much more often on their lesser series. With Honda, they only offer their top-of-line (and offer the full 3 year warranty for comercial use unlike the other brands); for Ariens, I personally would not purchase their units below the Platinum line. I don't have enough information on the other brands to be able to determine which series start their higher quality builds.

Congrats on deciding on the HS724, it is IMO, one of the finest built 24" snowblower today, although not the strongest or the gutsiest.  But I'm sure that's not your primary concern.  Your choice is the best choice for yourself, simple, everybody has their angle.  Most manufacturers typically do not make high end 24", limited customer base.  IMO, that is only met by Honda, Yamaha, and Simplicity.

If you value maneuverability, compactness, and build quality, the 724 fills these requirement exactly.  It is a beautiful machine, kind like Wall-e with a bucket and handles.  :)  You can see attention to details like cable management, clean welds, straightforward and convenient choke/throttle, engine shutoff placement, and nice rubber coated handle levers, with just the right amount of cable tension and minimal slack.  Try playing around with John Deere high-end 1330SE handles and levers for comparison and make up your own conclusion.

In reply to your comment about manufacturers skimping on quality and offering budget models, I wouldn't place the burden of responsibility solely on manufacturers and creative sales force.  Supply meets demand.  Consumers are buying lower priced models expecting it to be feature rich and you will see more of it.  You can be active and vote for people in office that represents your goals and needs, or you can just sit back and complain.  I digress, but hope you get the idea.

Sorry if this thread doesn't go in the direction you wanted it to.  Your questions are loaded and people here just don't have the answers that you expect.  People here offer their opinions and experiences, not as an engineer, but as a consumer/user/modders, ect...
The best you can do is take the normal distribution curve as common and useful opinions/fact and disregard the two extreme tail ends, for statistical sake.

Be sure to post pictures of your new toy.  This forum is in shortage of new shiny Honda snowblowers. :)

aa335 wrote:

I don't own a camera (never had need for photos), so I won't be able to do that. The dealer said the most expensive part of the Hondas compared to other brands is the shipping to get them; they have to order them in bulk or have to pay a ridiculous amount on shipping (compared to the Ariens and Deeres they also sell). He is going to see if he can get mine ordered alongside a shipment of generators to see if he can cut down the shipping costs that he would have to pass on to me.

As of 2004, Simplicity is no longer Simplicity. John Deere this year are no longer green-painted Ariens, they are green-painted Murray, which are Briggs, just like the newer Simplicity.

How much would that shipping cost be if he pass it on to you?  Smells like fish to me.

He says he can get the hs724wa to me for 1800 normally, but if he can get the individual shipping off, he can get it down to 1600.

Those seem like very FAIR prices.
Maybe Honda gurus can advise how much play MSRP.% during the offseason.

3 of 3 dealers I called wanted retail. One was $100 off MSRP. YMMV.

Electrocutor wrote:
$1800 is a GOOD deal, never heard of $1600 for a new HS724WA.  What area are you in?  I'd close on the deal before he figures out the mistake. 

These would normally be $2000 around here, and if you haven't spoken for them already, they're sold out by mid November.  Track model sells really fast.  Get it now or put in your order for next year.  When the snow hits the ground, you'd be lucky to find any new ones at MSRP in stock.  Make no mistake, Honda do not over produce to let excess inventory sit around.  My nearest dealer already sold every allocation for 2010 year in the Spring.

Electrocutor wrote:

If you work at $20/hr for 150 hours you could pay someone to clear the snow for you for the next 5 years. You'd be way ahead. Or buy a big box cheapo and put 50 hours into maintenance - you'll be 100 hours and hundreds of dollars ahead.

Bill_H wrote:
I was thinking of exactly the same thing.  You are definitely pragmatic.

Taking that one step further, $20/hr x 150hrs = $3000.  After taxes, take home maybe around $2500?  Give or take a few hundred dollars.

Geez, for $2500, I'd park that Ariens Platinum 24" snowblower in the garage in addition to that Honda 724WA that I was going to buy anyways.  Couldn't make a wrong decisions buying both machines that I was looking at.

only 150 hrs of research?David that is not enough to make an informed decision.Get back to us after you do some more research.Like another 150 hrs lol.

mikiewest wrote:
Doesn't really matter.  It is what it is.

I have no idea what most of you are even talking about. To be frank, the majority of you have been extremely rude to me for no reason and I don't particular appreciate it. I wanted to make an informed decision on what snowblower to buy for a long-term purchase and I have seen many other posts on here where many people (particularly snowmann) have been extremely helpful and given out great deals of information that is helpful to such a decision. Instead of receiving help from most you, I got grief for asking some simple questions.

This was the first and last time I shall ever post here (minus my question about fuel). Good day.