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trouts2




Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328

The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Original Message   Oct 8, 2010 10:53 am

Some comments on gearboxes:

 

The new MTDs seems to be the same gearbox they have used for many years.  Not so thick aluminum with a small brass gear.  For most models 5hp up to 13 on the standard models I’ve seen they use the same components.  I have not seen them but people have mentioned MTD pro or commercial models with a CI gearboxes.  They are probably ok.

 

Ariens has a few versions of aluminum gearbox.  The basic gearbox seems to be essentially the same they have used for many years.  The newer implementations use a gear which is approximately the same size as the MTD gear.  Prior to using that gear they had a similar size gear that had a side section about ¼ inch which would add rigidity.  That side section held the gear shear pin.  Pre-Briggs 5-7hp Simplicity machines used the same style of gear.   The old Ariens and Simplicity seemed to be a better gear than MTD and Ariens currently use.

 

Ariens has introduced the XS aluminum gearbox which is much bigger than their basic gearbox and seems to be thick aluminum.   I have not seen one of the gears yet but would think it’s bigger than in their basic aluminum gearbox.   The Toro gearbox seems to be about the same as an XS gearbox, i.e. aluminum size and rigidity.  The gears, given the case size, are probably close in size.

 

Ariens CI gearbox uses the same gear as in the XS gearbox so what is the advantage?  From what I’ve heard and read over time cast gearboxes are not better for long term wear.  Their advantage is breakage.  The cast gearbox can take a bigger hit say from something wedging the augers just right to not shear the pins and transfer all the force to the gearbox. 

 

That would make an XS gearbox as good for long term wear as a CI gearbox.  The case gearbox’s value is reducing catastrophic failure.  Given that total failure is rare a CI gearbox is not so much of an advantage.   

 

Most of the time when something gets tangled in the augers you know and can stop before things go too far.  For bigger problems the machine stalls and there is no damage.  For still bigger problems the pin shears.  Past that is gearbox damage.   

 

All in all it’s a rare thing for something to damage a gearbox.  If you walk around your area a few times before the snow season a few times to pickup stones and branches you greatly reduce chances for a problem.  If you remember you have a door mat, toys in the yard and paper delivery you won’t suck them in.  

 

Overall there is not much advantage to a cast gearbox for the average person.  It’s not like 20% Russian Roulette.  Given a slight amount of preseason prep a homeowner will probably never scoop in something that will nuke a gearbox.  In commercial service where the machine would clear places they the operator is not familiar the chances are higher of scooping in something that will be a problem.  Also say for a company that has a machine for lot clearing.  The employee will be using a company machine and not so careful so a CI would be useful here also.

 

For wear differences:

MTD and Murray are on the low end.  Their design has been the same for years.  Given that the same gearbox is designed and used on their big machines and works that gearbox in 5 through 10 should be plenty strong for those machines.  Outside of a failure and with proper use and even minimal maintenance those gearboxes will easily last for 20 years.  I’ve never seen a worn MTD gearbox, only broken gearboxes. 

 

Toro and Ariens aluminum gearboxes are big and strong gearboxes and should outperform MTD and Murray but the difference or advantage is in long term wear >20 years and ability to sustain a bigger gearbox hit.  Seeing that the lesser gearboxes and last for 20 years a stronger gearbox is of questionable advantage.

 

The unknown:

What is the quality of the gear and worm?  Over the years I’ve never seen a detail spec of these components.   MTD and current Ariens low end aluminum gearboxes have about the same gear.  What are they both made of?   What are the drive worms made of?  Drive worms seem to be some sort of steel and never the problem in wear.  The gears wear out faster.   On catastrophic failures gears break, teeth chip or smear but the worms usually survive.  Worms sometimes deform but can be brought back with filing and used again. 

 

The upshot is gearboxes are not so important in 10hp and below machines for the average person.  An aluminum gearbox would be fine.   As a qualifier Yamaha use aluminum. 

Replies: 9 - 16 of 16Next page of topicsPreviousAllView as Outline
DavidNJ


Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Points: 206

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #9   Oct 8, 2010 7:52 pm
aa335 wrote:
10 pound on the bucket is 10 pound on the bucket, no torque, zero foot-pound, nada, zilch. The perceived weight of that 10 pound maybe more or less at the handle bars, depending on the leverage.



10 pounds 2 1/2 ft from the axle is 25 ft-lb holding the nose down. Has anyone tried wheelie bars?

This message was modified Oct 8, 2010 by DavidNJ
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #10   Oct 8, 2010 8:08 pm
You lost me there. :)

What's the purpose of the weight kit? To keep the bucket down when riding over hard pack or to prevent wheelie popping when you engage the drive lever?
This message was modified Oct 8, 2010 by aa335
DavidNJ


Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Points: 206

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #11   Oct 8, 2010 8:36 pm
Its the same thing. The wheels can deliver enough torque to unload the nose. There needs to be a torque opposite the force through the wheels. That can be a weight on the nose pushing down or a wheelie bar pushing up.
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #12   Oct 9, 2010 12:15 am
I'm going to need another beer to understand that one. Ok, got it. Or maybe I'll just pop a wheelie and plow through that snow.
DavidNJ


Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Points: 206

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #13   Oct 9, 2010 1:04 am
If you pop a wheelie you won't plow through the snow. Popping a wheelie is what you are trying to avoid. Wheelie bars limit how high the nose will raise.
aa335


Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #14   Oct 9, 2010 7:42 am
Good stuff, you should apply for a patent.
trouts2




Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #15   Oct 9, 2010 7:42 am
The original comment context about Yamaha using an aluminum gearbox has zero to do with a new machine where or when it was made. 

The gearbox assembly weight between aluminum and cast boxes is minimal.   The example was for Ariens.  Ariens uses the same gear and worm in both types so the weight is the same.  The driven rake axle is the same. 

The cast generally has a few more components internally like washers so no signifigant weight addition.  The real weight difference is in the case halfs.  One is aluminum the other cast and the weight difference given the sizes of each is probably under a pound which is hardly enough to be a factor to say the cast gearbox makes any useful difference in clearing.   

DavidNJ


Joined: Sep 26, 2010
Points: 206

Re: The value of cast versus aluminum gearboxes
Reply #16   Oct 9, 2010 1:20 pm
trouts2 wrote:
The original comment context about Yamaha using an aluminum gearbox has zero to do with a new machine where or when it was made. 

The gearbox assembly weight between aluminum and cast boxes is minimal.   The example was for Ariens.  Ariens uses the same gear and worm in both types so the weight is the same.  The driven rake axle is the same. 

The cast generally has a few more components internally like washers so no signifigant weight addition.  The real weight difference is in the case halfs.  One is aluminum the other cast and the weight difference given the sizes of each is probably under a pound which is hardly enough to be a factor to say the cast gearbox makes any useful difference in clearing.   



Iron is 2.9x as dense as aluminum. If the case has about 24 cu. in. of metal, that would be about 4.5#. The Simplicity/Deere/Snapper and the Ariens cast iron cases are different designs; the Simplicity may have more volume. That would increase the difference. 5# is half the weight of Arien's optional nose weight. Auger shaft differences may also add nose weight.

What is the value of nose weight? From the Ariens Accessories catalog:

72406500 For use on Ariens® 932, 924, 926 and 921 Series Sno-Thro® models (except for 20" housings)

For use on Ariens® 932, 924, 926 and 921 Series Sno-Thro® models (except for 20" housings)

Adds 10 lbs. to the front of your Sno-Thro to equalize weight distribution and holds the scraper blade closer to the ground.

Enhances balance and adds extra weight to get a cleaner surface while throwing snow

Enhances operator comfort 

 http://www.ariens.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Ariens%20Snow%20Accessories.pdf

Probably appropriate here to say it appears Ariens, Simplicity (now BASCO), and Toro take their snow throwing seriously and deliver products that conform to how they view the important aspects for the different market segments. MTD takes a value/feature approach which has them nearly always offer the biggest/most feature rich machine for the money. The most interesting comparison is between the 28" Sno-Tek by Ariens (sold at Home Depot and online at SnowBlowersDirect.com)  and the 28" MTD (sold at Sears as a Sears and Lowes as a Troy-bilt).

A lot of my posts have been learning the dimensions of the design decisions then understanding how the snow throwing and marketing philosophies of the different companies influenced their designs. For me, I think, pending a few measurements, that has led to a decision.

This message was modified Oct 9, 2010 by DavidNJ
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